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On January 07 2013 22:24 DaOrks wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 19:49 SheaR619 wrote:On January 07 2013 19:14 [F_]aths wrote:On January 07 2013 19:06 SheaR619 wrote:On January 07 2013 18:57 [F_]aths wrote:
A slow push style is hard to watch. Wol already has a lot of units which cannot be a-moved while getting the most out of them. It depends, many people actually like watching slow push style. During the time when sc2 first got release and tank marine was standard for TvZ, it was VERY exciting. TvZ was definitely the most exciting match up by far because it was also the most dynamic. Slow push style also increase skill cap of the game and make the game not a big snow ball affect. It require skill, strategy etc etc. Compare to ZvZ, a watch up of heavy micro in the beginning and then later on just come down to fungal war and a-move roach hydra (with little micro on forming concave). I would think that all BW fan would appreciate and like slow push style while most of the complaint are from the sc2. Indeed, I remember some TvT (tank versus tank, hehe) games from earlier GSL seasons, some of them developing into a viking or even battlecruiser massacre. Those game were very exciting. But to keep them exciting, they should be rare I think. If we can expect a tank turtle in a TvT, the game gets stale. I guess that Blizzard also is afraid of the watchability for new viewers who get confused by a tank versus tank game of chess. I hope that SC2 will not be too much driven into pure action and still allow for strategic setups with slow pushes, but those game should not happen too often. Well the thing with slow pushes is that it is playing aggressive and I think you have tank push and turtling mixed up. It a way gain map control when going tank based mech. If you leave the tank push alone, then he will just unseige everything and seige outside your door. Similar to how ling muta baneling was back in early release. The zerg had to keep pressure with threat of baneling so tank has to slow push when engaging on creep other wise they get ambush by lings and baneling kill terran bio. Slow push ISNT turtling because you are actually exerting pressure on the enemy because he knows that with every passing minute, the enemy is getting closer and will soon gain enough map control to deny expansion. THAT is tank push. What you are talking about is turtleing and when terran mass and have no pressence of map control. A good way to distinguish is that tank push you are fighting for map control and turtling you have no map control. I do agree that TvT can get stale if terran just mass tanks but the thing TvT is that it is the MOST dynamic match up. You can go bio, mech, or bio mech. Most player generally rather go bio vs mech anyways so you dont see mass tanks vs mass tank war in TvT. In the rare situation that it does happen, the other terran is generally force to go air. This only happen because of WATCH TOWER. Which is already starting to fade away from map pool more and more over time, similar to yellow mineral. Even if they are present, they are not in retarded position like they were uses too where tank scan siege up and control half the map (ex: shatter temple, metalpolis). So the chance of this happening isnt that common. I would believe with a tank buff, it wouldnt change much. Dont forget medivac change too, along with map getting bigger, so mech is already getting weaker. Also hellbat does nothing in TvT match up except dropping purposes. I would think that a tank buff wouldnt affect TvT that much. (as long they make mine not hit air which is what I believe is to be going to happen soon). Regarding tanks in TvT, they are what make TvT the most skill base match up. Nada once said that to test if a map is balance, he would play TvT because it is the strategic match up and ensure no place on the map can be exploited. There is NOTHING in TvT that when you lose, you can blame the game. It not like ZvZ where you get the most fungal or like PvP where who make the most collosus and win, it actually the most skill based match up in the game. If we wanted to find who is the best starcraft player is, everyone should play terran. This is all possible due to tanks. Some viewers might not like it but there are many way to be aggressive with going tanks, it just really depends on situation. "Terran at the only ones that are good, all other races have no skill and are easy mode"
What i am trying to say is that TvT is more consistent compare to ZvZ and PvP. Honestly, what happens late game ZvZ and late game PvP? The current ZvZ meta game (Catz says something similar to this himself on stream), zerg are already starting to figure out how to survive early game and more and more game are heading toward mass infestor Broodlord. Generally, ZvZ comes down to who make more infestors. Same can be said about PvP, later on it comes down to who can make more collosus. ZvZ and PvP is very micro intensive in the early game but once that get past, it generally become who can make more. This generally wouldnt be an issue but macro in sc2 isnt that hard so this become rather problematic. TvT doesnt really have this kind of problem. If you start 3 tournament with one with TvT and the other PvP and the other ZvZ and is then played over and over with the same people many time, the TvT tournament would have a more consistent winner. In short, TvT is the more stable mirror match up. Can you honestly deny this?
On January 07 2013 22:13 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 19:49 SheaR619 wrote:On January 07 2013 19:14 [F_]aths wrote:On January 07 2013 19:06 SheaR619 wrote:On January 07 2013 18:57 [F_]aths wrote:
A slow push style is hard to watch. Wol already has a lot of units which cannot be a-moved while getting the most out of them. It depends, many people actually like watching slow push style. During the time when sc2 first got release and tank marine was standard for TvZ, it was VERY exciting. TvZ was definitely the most exciting match up by far because it was also the most dynamic. Slow push style also increase skill cap of the game and make the game not a big snow ball affect. It require skill, strategy etc etc. Compare to ZvZ, a watch up of heavy micro in the beginning and then later on just come down to fungal war and a-move roach hydra (with little micro on forming concave). I would think that all BW fan would appreciate and like slow push style while most of the complaint are from the sc2. Indeed, I remember some TvT (tank versus tank, hehe) games from earlier GSL seasons, some of them developing into a viking or even battlecruiser massacre. Those game were very exciting. But to keep them exciting, they should be rare I think. If we can expect a tank turtle in a TvT, the game gets stale. I guess that Blizzard also is afraid of the watchability for new viewers who get confused by a tank versus tank game of chess. I hope that SC2 will not be too much driven into pure action and still allow for strategic setups with slow pushes, but those game should not happen too often. Well the thing with slow pushes is that it is playing aggressive and I think you have tank push and turtling mixed up. It a way gain map control when going tank based mech. If you leave the tank push alone, then he will just unseige everything and seige outside your door. Similar to how ling muta baneling was back in early release. The zerg had to keep pressure with threat of baneling so tank has to slow push when engaging on creep other wise they get ambush by lings and baneling kill terran bio. Slow push ISNT turtling because you are actually exerting pressure on the enemy because he knows that with every passing minute, the enemy is getting closer and will soon gain enough map control to deny expansion. THAT is tank push. What you are talking about is turtleing and when terran mass and have no pressence of map control. A good way to distinguish is that tank push you are fighting for map control and turtling you have no map control. How do you cast those games? "He now controls this space for 10 minutes and his opponent still cannot find an opening and tries to expand while the terran uses drops to harass expansions." I don't think it would be the best for the game if all armies are constantly moving, but at least the caster can comment on the movements. If positional tank games are rare, the commentators can point out how rare and therefore exciting this game is. Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 19:49 SheaR619 wrote:I do agree that TvT can get stale if terran just mass tanks but the thing TvT is that it is the MOST dynamic match up. You can go bio, mech, or bio mech. Most player generally rather go bio vs mech anyways so you dont see mass tanks vs mass tank war in TvT. In the rare situation that it does happen, the other terran is generally force to go air. This only happen because of WATCH TOWER. Which is already starting to fade away from map pool more and more over time, similar to yellow mineral. Even if they are present, they are not in retarded position like they were uses too where tank scan siege up and control half the map (ex: shatter temple, metalpolis). So the chance of this happening isnt that common. I would believe with a tank buff, it wouldnt change much. Dont forget medivac change too, along with map getting bigger, so mech is already getting weaker. Also hellbat does nothing in TvT match up except dropping purposes. I would think that a tank buff wouldnt affect TvT that much. (as long they make mine not hit air which is what I believe is to be going to happen soon).
Regarding tanks in TvT, they are what make TvT the most skill base match up. Nada once said that to test if a map is balance, he would play TvT because it is the strategic match up and ensure no place on the map can be exploited. There is NOTHING in TvT that when you lose, you can blame the game. It not like ZvZ where you get the most fungal or like PvP where who make the most collosus and win, it actually the most skill based match up in the game. If we wanted to find who is the best starcraft player is, everyone should play terran. This is all possible due to tanks. Some viewers might not like it but there are many way to be aggressive with going tanks, it just really depends on situation. I would not declare TvT skill higher than ZvZ skill just because different areas of skill are required. Terran is incredible flexible but you need to know the right buildorder in beforehand to have the add-on switching timings right and so on. In Hots, mech and air units share the armor upgrade, this could make mech with air support better than before. (Especially as vikings are often used to get vision for the tanks.) I am mostly concerned about diverse matches. I still want to have the possibility of a game as short as three minutes due to a successfull sixpool versus a greedy eco opening. I also want to see 45 minutes of tank contains.
I do give sc2 credit that it allow bio and mech to both be viable in TvT. It allowed TvT to be more diverse. Regarding casting and being contain for 10min, if you are contained for 10min then you probably already too far behind and lost. How is positional tank not castable? It was castable just fine in BW how is it not castable in SC2? A good player will know when he cant win and should gg out. This mean that after he foolishly let his opponent march up to his base and establish a strong contain uncontested without a lead in economy or anything, then he deserve to lose. The other way that a contain can happen is that your army got crushed while engaging in the middle so he contain you and took map control and start expanding. Either way if a contain was to happen, the person that is getting contain should understand that after his first few initial attempt of breaking out fails, he might as well leave the game. There is no way that a 45min tank contain should happen because a good player will know that he cant get out of the contain and is in a unwinnable position. Similar to chess game between grandmaster, if the person is down a few pawn and has no control over the center, then he generally just resign.
Are you talking about tank contain? Or are you talking about seige line split map?
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United States4883 Posts
On January 07 2013 22:59 Markwerf wrote:nah it's fine really, you don't want to force TvT and TvZ even more towards mech. Those matchups have almost the right balance between bio and mech imo where both or even a combination can work quite well, something BW never even achieved. Just fix the immortal and widow mine and mech can work in TvP too. Remove hardened shield (or let tanks ignore it, but that's an ugly fix) and let widow mines actually kill stalkers in one shot again..
I say, either
1) remove hardened shields and give them about 40-50 extra shields OR
2) give terran a defensive matrix that will allow tanks to go toe to toe with immortals
Original plans were made to have an AoE defensive matrix, which I think would still be a great idea. It could be small enough to fit 2-3 tanks or hellbats and would improve the balance of engagements, even if it only tanks like 80 damage.
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United States4883 Posts
[QUOTE]On January 08 2013 04:41 SheaR619 wrote:
I just want to point out that your PvP assessment is slightly wrong. It was kind of who could make more colossus, now it's all about how many immortals you can make. We saw in some recent matches that immortals are definitely the defining unit in maxed out battles in PvP (~4 colossus, 8 immortals, 5 archons > 8 colossus, 3 immortals, 5 archons in a HUGE ARC). At this point, it really becomes a composition war and positioning or concave almost don't matter.
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If we're gonna talk ideas regarding the Warhound, all we need to do, is to look another, very good game: Warcraft 3.
There are just so many untapped possibilities for the Warhound to borrow utility or abilities directly from Warcraft 3. Remember this from the Witch Doctor?
Stasis Trap Ward
Summons an invisible and immovable ward that stuns enemy units around it. The trap activates when an enemy unit approaches. The trap lasts 150 seconds. The stun lasts 6 (2.5) seconds.
I mean we're in agreement that we don't want something to be boring A-Move. Adding utility, which does not directly do damage, is the answer. If the Warhound had something interesting to add to the field in a tactical manner, this could do a lot for the game.
But again - Warcraft 3 is the answer.
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On January 08 2013 09:45 D_K_night wrote:
If we're gonna talk ideas regarding the Warhound, all we need to do, is to look another, very good game: Warcraft 3.
There are just so many untapped possibilities for the Warhound to borrow utility or abilities directly from Warcraft 3. Remember this from the Witch Doctor?
Stasis Trap Ward
Summons an invisible and immovable ward that stuns enemy units around it. The trap activates when an enemy unit approaches. The trap lasts 150 seconds. The stun lasts 6 (2.5) seconds.
I mean we're in agreement that we don't want something to be boring A-Move. Adding utility, which does not directly do damage, is the answer. If the Warhound had something interesting to add to the field in a tactical manner, this could do a lot for the game.
But again - Warcraft 3 is the answer.
Pretty sure nobody wants more stun spells in the game - just look at all the complaints about fungal...
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On January 08 2013 07:29 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 22:59 Markwerf wrote:On January 07 2013 22:44 syroz wrote:
Buff siege tank. That's all. nah it's fine really, you don't want to force TvT and TvZ even more towards mech. Those matchups have almost the right balance between bio and mech imo where both or even a combination can work quite well, something BW never even achieved. Just fix the immortal and widow mine and mech can work in TvP too. Remove hardened shield (or let tanks ignore it, but that's an ugly fix) and let widow mines actually kill stalkers in one shot again.. I say, either 1) remove hardened shields and give them about 40-50 extra shields OR 2) give terran a defensive matrix that will allow tanks to go toe to toe with immortals Original plans were made to have an AoE defensive matrix, which I think would still be a great idea. It could be small enough to fit 2-3 tanks or hellbats and would improve the balance of engagements, even if it only tanks like 80 damage.
A ground-targeted defensive matrix would be really interesting and fun.
I'd like to see it tank a reasonable amount of damage, but maybe take a little while to boot up, and maybe even work on 'mech units only. You could fit an awful lot of marines under a matrix big enough for 2-3 tanks, and that could be kind of gay. Even 80 damage means bio is suddenly immune to storms.
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I dont get why we were all up in arms over the warhound being a "1a" unit. What the hell do you call the immortal, zealots (they charge! thats FREE MICRO!) collossus, zerglings + infestors, broodlords etc etc etc. I just dont get why that was one of the major arguments against the warhound being in the game. Hell, even the marine or the roach or the stalker isnt really that different from what the warhound was. It was certainly a unit that needed some work and couldnt enter the game as strong as it was, but was it really such a bad thing for terran to have a unit that benefited from good positioning that could punish mistakes by the other player, regardless of race?
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On January 08 2013 12:28 Aveng3r wrote:
I dont get why we were all up in arms over the warhound being a "1a" unit. What the hell do you call the immortal, zealots (they charge! thats FREE MICRO!) collossus, zerglings + infestors, broodlords etc etc etc. I just dont get why that was one of the major arguments against the warhound being in the game. Hell, even the marine or the roach or the stalker isnt really that different from what the warhound was. It was certainly a unit that needed some work and couldnt enter the game as strong as it was, but was it really such a bad thing for terran to have a unit that benefited from good positioning that could punish mistakes by the other player, regardless of race?
Most of those units you listed are among the least liked in starcraft 2, except marines (too fragile to 1a). The thread linked in the op went over some of the reasons warhounds were too one dimensional. It was a unit with good mobility and utility against all types of ground that's massable and doesn't require much micro.
However the optimism in this thread has kind of infected me. Why do warhounds HAVE to be boring? Why not give them something like a grenade launcher attack, grenades that collide and bounce over the ground and blow up after .5 seconds. Something that does good damage and is good for stopping enemy from 1aing into you, but bad for trying to attack forward into him. It's pointless speculation at this point, as I highly doubt the unit is coming back. But perhaps we shouldn't have shat on the warhound so hard, maybe blizz would have been able to retool it in an interesting fashion rather than leaving us in the lurch with no really groundbreaking new unit.
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I think it would be better to start off discussing what current game play roles are unfulfilled/lacking at this time, with respect to the terran race. From here, it would be easier to generate a discussion about, 1st: Whether or not the warhound should have been removed, and 2nd: What changes could be made to it to allow it to better perform this role? According to the author of the OP, the terran race needs a unit to supplement mech because of the problem summarized in his statement below:
Quite honestly, a lot of what mech needs is a mid-tier all-purpose unit to counter the really tricky units like immortals, blink stalkers, or archons and allow mech to secure map control more safely.
In other words he believes mech is countered too easily by certain units (immortal, blink stalkers, archons) and that it is too difficult to gain map control with a mech composition. Before moving on (I will edit in idea's later if a consensus is reached), do proficient terran players actually agree that this is a problem with mech? Taking into account game design, could you argue that these so called problems are actually more like tradeoff's (that another strength of mech makes up for their inherent immobility)?
Please let me know if you agree/disagree with what I've stated above and any adjustments that should be made to make it more accurate. As I've stated before, we need to determine what is fundamentally lacking (if anything) in regards to terran game play before moving on with this discussion.
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Terran doesn't need warhound. They just need another viable spellcaster vs Z.
Ghosts are fun to watch and play with, it suits the terrans. the better your micro skills the stronger your ghosts will be. Watching the pros hitting those sick EMP's and snipes then run away and save em fucking makes me cum.
But its not too viable against the zergs, especially when the gglords are out and your ghost can't get near to their infestors at all.
In my opinion, we don't need a new unit, just completely overhaul the raven will do. make it stronger, make it more microable, throw away the stupid auto turrets and heat seeking missle, give it some creative abilities that are practical yet the pros can show off their skills with.
Now thats wat i want in HOTS
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[QUOTE]On January 08 2013 07:33 SC2John wrote:
[QUOTE]On January 08 2013 04:41 SheaR619 wrote:
I just want to point out that your PvP assessment is slightly wrong. It was kind of who could make more colossus, now it's all about how many immortals you can make. We saw in some recent matches that immortals are definitely the defining unit in maxed out battles in PvP (~4 colossus, 8 immortals, 5 archons > 8 colossus, 3 immortals, 5 archons in a HUGE ARC). At this point, it really becomes a composition war and positioning or concave almost don't matter.[/QUOTE]
Really? That really interesting. I havent been keeping up with recent sc2 because it seems and felt to be mostly figured out now. Been putting more focus on HOTS so I need to check to see if immortal are the new meta atm.
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No. No more spell-casting. There's already too much of that as it is. Cool positional tank-based play is what I want. Give us a tank buff, a redone goliath, and mines that actually can kill stuff.
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I thought there was already a brilliant OP written explaining why the Warhound was not a "mech unit".
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What Terran Mech needs is a relative cheap unit to tank damage. Mech sould mean "armored", and what terran has? a siege tank with the main role to support in siege mode and helions wich are pretty fragile and mines. Thors are too big and expensive to tank damage.
A simple unit to protect siege tanks with enought armor to resist friendly fire and hold the line will be more useful than another caster unit and will help Mech play.
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On January 08 2013 19:07 drkcid wrote:
What Terran Mech needs is a relative cheap unit to tank damage. Mech sould mean "armored", and what terran has? a siege tank with the main role to support in siege mode and helions wich are pretty fragile and mines. Thors are too big and expensive to tank damage.
A simple unit to protect siege tanks with enought armor to resist friendly fire and hold the line will be more useful than another caster unit and will help Mech play.
You mean a vulture with spidermines? :D
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On January 08 2013 21:15 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2013 19:07 drkcid wrote:
What Terran Mech needs is a relative cheap unit to tank damage. Mech sould mean "armored", and what terran has? a siege tank with the main role to support in siege mode and helions wich are pretty fragile and mines. Thors are too big and expensive to tank damage.
A simple unit to protect siege tanks with enought armor to resist friendly fire and hold the line will be more useful than another caster unit and will help Mech play. You mean a vulture with spidermines? :D
Well I was thinking more like an unsieged tank with more armor and/or hp, no spells, no bonus damage, shoots inmune to inmortal shield.... Maybe with a unit like this we will see things like blinking micro to "jump" behind this wall of units to focus on siege tanks and less inmortal A+forward, or more locust pinning the frontline while Viper Abduct tanks and less FG, who knows.
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I agree that the warhound needs to be introduced back into the game. But it needs some nerfing for sure.
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As with most other Terrans, I am utterly unimpressed with the failbat and the failmine. Bad excuse for new units, and aside from some gimmicky play early with the mine, these units do not change a thing with our playstyle. Only the warhound changed the way a terran can play.
I wholeheartedly agree with all the Terrans asking for better tanks and some kind of goliath unit. Is Blizzard so detached from the state of terran that they don't understand the issues of how horrible mech is vs toss, and how easily it is countered vs zerg? We need some terran players hired at Blizzard, there is clearly a major disconnect.
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I would love to see if a gm player really like the warhound back, or is just a "casual" player request.
I'm pretty sure there are thousands of better design options for mech out there better than a (even balanced) 1a unit.
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On January 08 2013 09:56 -NegativeZero- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2013 09:45 D_K_night wrote:
If we're gonna talk ideas regarding the Warhound, all we need to do, is to look another, very good game: Warcraft 3.
There are just so many untapped possibilities for the Warhound to borrow utility or abilities directly from Warcraft 3. Remember this from the Witch Doctor?
Stasis Trap Ward
Summons an invisible and immovable ward that stuns enemy units around it. The trap activates when an enemy unit approaches. The trap lasts 150 seconds. The stun lasts 6 (2.5) seconds.
I mean we're in agreement that we don't want something to be boring A-Move. Adding utility, which does not directly do damage, is the answer. If the Warhound had something interesting to add to the field in a tactical manner, this could do a lot for the game.
But again - Warcraft 3 is the answer. Pretty sure nobody wants more stun spells in the game - just look at all the complaints about fungal...
No, but I saw an amazing concept for a Line of Sight blocking Smoke Bomb ability that you could cast from the warhound (would be cooldown/energy/max casts per warhound) that would essentially mean you could cast them and scan over the smoke wall or snipe the protoss's observer.
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EPT
