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On January 08 2013 09:56 -NegativeZero- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2013 09:45 D_K_night wrote:
If we're gonna talk ideas regarding the Warhound, all we need to do, is to look another, very good game: Warcraft 3.
There are just so many untapped possibilities for the Warhound to borrow utility or abilities directly from Warcraft 3. Remember this from the Witch Doctor?
Stasis Trap Ward
Summons an invisible and immovable ward that stuns enemy units around it. The trap activates when an enemy unit approaches. The trap lasts 150 seconds. The stun lasts 6 (2.5) seconds.
I mean we're in agreement that we don't want something to be boring A-Move. Adding utility, which does not directly do damage, is the answer. If the Warhound had something interesting to add to the field in a tactical manner, this could do a lot for the game.
But again - Warcraft 3 is the answer. Pretty sure nobody wants more stun spells in the game - just look at all the complaints about fungal...
Huge difference though.
Stasis Trap are mines except instead of doing damage, they stun. Since they're like mines, you can clear them out with detection and avoid them (unlike Fungal, if you're hit, you can't do anything).
WC3 is a good source for new ideas IMO. There are a million spells from WC3 and a lot of them are in Dota (the classic windwalk which is on multiple heroes and an item in Dota is from WC3's Blade Master).
Edit - Besides that, I think the single player campaign and a lot of SC2 alpha have good ideas (though they never bothered). Like someone mentioned earlier, there was going to be an AoE defensive matrix field (units under the field gained defensive matrix). This would go well with mech's stationary play.
For the Raven, it had an ability to drop a stationary unit that regularly made mines (though TBH, it's basically like the Widow Mine in a way in the sense that instead of being a "one time use mine", it was always active until you destroyed the main unit).
In terms of making a new mech unit (I really like a mech spell caster idea) and/or changing the Warhound, they have plenty of ideas they could have used.
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On January 14 2013 07:35 Goldfish wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2013 09:56 -NegativeZero- wrote:On January 08 2013 09:45 D_K_night wrote:
If we're gonna talk ideas regarding the Warhound, all we need to do, is to look another, very good game: Warcraft 3.
There are just so many untapped possibilities for the Warhound to borrow utility or abilities directly from Warcraft 3. Remember this from the Witch Doctor?
Stasis Trap Ward
Summons an invisible and immovable ward that stuns enemy units around it. The trap activates when an enemy unit approaches. The trap lasts 150 seconds. The stun lasts 6 (2.5) seconds.
I mean we're in agreement that we don't want something to be boring A-Move. Adding utility, which does not directly do damage, is the answer. If the Warhound had something interesting to add to the field in a tactical manner, this could do a lot for the game.
But again - Warcraft 3 is the answer. Pretty sure nobody wants more stun spells in the game - just look at all the complaints about fungal... Huge difference though. Stasis Trap are mines except instead of doing damage, they stun. Since they're like mines, you can clear them out with detection and avoid them (unlike Fungal, if you're hit, you can't do anything). WC3 is a good source for new ideas IMO. There are a million spells from WC3 and a lot of them are in Dota (the classic windwalk which is on multiple heroes and an item in Dota is from WC3's Blade Master). Edit - Besides that, I think the single player campaign and a lot of SC2 alpha have good ideas (though they never bothered). Like someone mentioned earlier, there was going to be an AoE defensive matrix field (units under the field gained defensive matrix). This would go well with mech's stationary play. For the Raven, it had an ability to drop a stationary unit that regularly made mines (though TBH, it's basically like the Widow Mine in a way in the sense that instead of being a "one time use mine", it was always active until you destroyed the main unit). In terms of making a new mech unit (I really like a mech spell caster idea) and/or changing the Warhound, they have plenty of ideas they could have used.
A mech spell caster would indeed be a very interesting thing to see with some spells taken from campaign. I wonder if it would be too much of an problem to balance it out.
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Removing that junk was the best decision Blizzard made all beta. They showed courage and a fleeting understanding of what's good for SC2.
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Removing a unit that quickly was "full retard" mode. They could have easily balanced it. All they need to do was change the supply from 2 to 3 and tone down the damage.
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United States4883 Posts
On January 16 2013 05:53 Grapefruit wrote:
Removing a unit that quickly was "full retard" mode. They could have easily balanced it. All they need to do was change the supply from 2 to 3 and tone down the damage.
Well, the LAST thing mech needs is another supply-heavy unit that deals "okay" damage. It's far easier to have a unit with a relatively low supply cost that has a risk/reward factor to it. Perhaps it would have been best to make haywire missiles deal damage in a straight line or give them some kind of drawback. And, of course, tone the attacks WAY DOWN.
But anyway, I think that the hellbat is doing a good job of filling in the role the warhound left. The only things I think needs fixing now are terran's lategame space control issues, early-game fragility, and where the new hellbats leave >blue flame< hellions.
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Rather than adding an anti-mech unit, the counter to another mech shouldn't be mech, it should be an upgrade for the ghost for a damage reducing shield for incoming heavy damage. A combination of the Immortal shield and a guardian shield.
A cost of a 200 - 200 upgrade, would make it mid / late game, and researchable from the Ghost Academy of cause!
It would change the whole game a lot! A T bio army having an option to be more protective from, Siege tanks, ultras and other heavy stuff.
By implementing such an ability should of cause affect, another ability currently in the game.
What the opinion on this?
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United States4883 Posts
On January 17 2013 00:59 AtlasEU wrote:
Rather than adding an anti-mech unit, the counter to another mech shouldn't be mech, it should be an upgrade for the ghost for a damage reducing shield for incoming heavy damage. A combination of the Immortal shield and a guardian shield.
A cost of a 200 - 200 upgrade, would make it mid / late game, and researchable from the Ghost Academy of cause!
It would change the whole game a lot! A T bio army having an option to be more protective from, Siege tanks, ultras and other heavy stuff.
By implementing such an ability should of cause affect, another ability currently in the game.
What the opinion on this?
I think it's a good idea. Originally in SC2, there was a design for a flying caster unit like the science vessel that did kind of an AoE defensive matrix, and now that we've reached this point in SC2, I feel it might be necessary. Perhaps it would be better on the raven (or a new starport unit); the ghost already has enough of its own role. I think, in a way, it would be a more elegant solution that having to buff mech units across the board, and it would also play an interesting role in bio.
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Two units that haven't really been looked at with regards to any ability change/addition/rework are the Banshee and Battlecruiser. These units have energy bars which they cannot utilize without research, Would it not make sense for these units to have some method of spending their energy pre-research?
The Banshee is a very logical anti-mech unit, and its counters aren't mech (mainly Viking and Marine- Thor is actually quite bad), creating composition diversity. Perhaps the Banshee might acquire a missile type ability that costs energy? Ravens are being used to counter mech with their timed-delay Seeker, since the tanks cannot flee while sieged. The time delay during which the unit can flee makes this ability naturally useful against immobile targets.
The Battlecruiser is another very logical anti-mech unit. Defense Matrix on the Battlecruiser, no research required, allowing it to support ground units against high damage enemies like tanks or colossi?
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United States4883 Posts
On January 17 2013 08:55 ledarsi wrote:
Two units that haven't really been looked at with regards to any ability change/addition/rework are the Banshee and Battlecruiser. These units have energy bars which they cannot utilize without research, Would it not make sense for these units to have some method of spending their energy pre-research?
The Banshee is a very logical anti-mech unit, and its counters aren't mech (mainly Viking and Marine- Thor is actually quite bad), creating composition diversity. Perhaps the Banshee might acquire a missile type ability that costs energy? Ravens are being used to counter mech with their timed-delay Seeker, since the tanks cannot flee while sieged. The time delay during which the unit can flee makes this ability naturally useful against immobile targets.
The Battlecruiser is another very logical anti-mech unit. Defense Matrix on the Battlecruiser, no research required, allowing it to support ground units against high damage enemies like tanks or colossi?
If BC gains another useful ability, it has to cost at least 75 energy, otherwise it would be far too powerful to have BCs engage a shield then yamato everything in existence. I honestly liked the little boost idea they had in alpha, not sure why they decided to get rid of it.
I would be overly nervous about changing the banshee, as it has a very nice balance already. I feel like the design of it is pretty great: high DPS paperweight with the ability to cloak. I'm not sure I like the idea of giving it even more DPS, else it ends up like the marine: good against anything and everything as long as it doesn't die first.
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United States4883 Posts
On January 17 2013 09:11 KevoVargas wrote:
No, we didnt
Thank you, your input was stimulating.
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On January 17 2013 08:55 ledarsi wrote:
Two units that haven't really been looked at with regards to any ability change/addition/rework are the Banshee and Battlecruiser. These units have energy bars which they cannot utilize without research, Would it not make sense for these units to have some method of spending their energy pre-research?
The Banshee is a very logical anti-mech unit, and its counters aren't mech (mainly Viking and Marine- Thor is actually quite bad), creating composition diversity. Perhaps the Banshee might acquire a missile type ability that costs energy? Ravens are being used to counter mech with their timed-delay Seeker, since the tanks cannot flee while sieged. The time delay during which the unit can flee makes this ability naturally useful against immobile targets.
The Battlecruiser is another very logical anti-mech unit. Defense Matrix on the Battlecruiser, no research required, allowing it to support ground units against high damage enemies like tanks or colossi?
Actually adding an option of haywire missiles for banshees could be a good idea as form of ghost alternative.
But first you'd have to convince Blizzard that their whole approach to mech is wrong and it cannot be made to work by just number tweaking on existing units.
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On January 16 2013 05:53 Grapefruit wrote:
Removing a unit that quickly was "full retard" mode. They could have easily balanced it. All they need to do was change the supply from 2 to 3 and tone down the damage.
As long as it has 7 range (preventing stalker kiting) it breaks TvP entirely. Just make a bunch of marines/warhounds, pull all your workers, and go kill them. There's nothing they can do about it, zealots can't get past the wad of blocking SCVs and stalkers can't kite 7 range anti-armored. You can't forcefield them out either as with 7 range the warhounds can just stand behind the FFs and shoot at the stalkers trying to pick off units in front of the FFs.
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United States4883 Posts
On January 17 2013 10:22 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 05:53 Grapefruit wrote:
Removing a unit that quickly was "full retard" mode. They could have easily balanced it. All they need to do was change the supply from 2 to 3 and tone down the damage. As long as it has 7 range (preventing stalker kiting) it breaks TvP entirely. Just make a bunch of marines/warhounds, pull all your workers, and go kill them. There's nothing they can do about it, zealots can't get past the wad of blocking SCVs and stalkers can't kite 7 range anti-armored. You can't forcefield them out either as with 7 range the warhounds can just stand behind the FFs and shoot at the stalkers trying to pick off units in front of the FFs.
That's actually a good point. If you look at it from that perspective, there's almost no point to making a warhound at all if it has to have less than 6 range; might as well let the hellbat fill the warhound role. I'm trying to think if raising the build time and/or the cost would help, but...I don't think it would. That's actually the most solid reasoning I've heard to the warhound being immediately removed from the game.
That being said, I'm fairly certain terran doesn't have a hard time killing mechanical units. HOWEVER, (up until recently), they've had a nearly impossible time dealing with stalkers/immortals/colossus, and Blizzard has done a pretty good job of addressing those units so they don't straight-up roll over terran mech. It would honestly be nice if hardened shields were tweaked a little bit, but I suppose Blizzard is trying to change as little from WoL as possible.
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I would just like to throw out an idea. It may sound stupid, but at least think about it.
What if we made Warhounds melee units with bonus damage vs mechanical, a bit slower than stalkers, around the same health, and made haywire missiles a manual ability? Idk why it would make sense, but I just felt like giving it some thought
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On January 17 2013 12:44 Obeast96 wrote:
I would just like to throw out an idea. It may sound stupid, but at least think about it.
What if we made Warhounds melee units with bonus damage vs mechanical, a bit slower than stalkers, around the same health, and made haywire missiles a manual ability? Idk why it would make sense, but I just felt like giving it some thought
War hound was meant to be siege breaker, widow mines do that job, but better.
A player that just a-moves with his marine/tank blindly onto a well spread minefield will find himself quickly w/o any army.
With 1s upgrade, you can even drop them on top of tanks and burrow, wiping out four to six tanks if clumped.
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On January 17 2013 02:32 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 00:59 AtlasEU wrote:
Rather than adding an anti-mech unit, the counter to another mech shouldn't be mech, it should be an upgrade for the ghost for a damage reducing shield for incoming heavy damage. A combination of the Immortal shield and a guardian shield.
A cost of a 200 - 200 upgrade, would make it mid / late game, and researchable from the Ghost Academy of cause!
It would change the whole game a lot! A T bio army having an option to be more protective from, Siege tanks, ultras and other heavy stuff.
By implementing such an ability should of cause affect, another ability currently in the game.
What the opinion on this? I think it's a good idea. Originally in SC2, there was a design for a flying caster unit like the science vessel that did kind of an AoE defensive matrix, and now that we've reached this point in SC2, I feel it might be necessary. Perhaps it would be better on the raven (or a new starport unit); the ghost already has enough of its own role. I think, in a way, it would be a more elegant solution that having to buff mech units across the board, and it would also play an interesting role in bio.
Adding a defence matrix to the Raven would be great. Removing the Turret for the sake of a defence matrix shielding X spaces on the map, and not just a single unit! IMO the turret arent that great - so it wouldent be a loss to get rid of that.
Having a defence matrix shield your units for X sec, maybe 5 sec. at the cost of 50 energy. Reducing incomming damage to 0 up and till 500 damage something. it would make it "easyer" for a bio player to handle T tank play, and Z ultra play, and P Collosi play.
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On January 17 2013 13:07 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 12:44 Obeast96 wrote:
I would just like to throw out an idea. It may sound stupid, but at least think about it.
What if we made Warhounds melee units with bonus damage vs mechanical, a bit slower than stalkers, around the same health, and made haywire missiles a manual ability? Idk why it would make sense, but I just felt like giving it some thought War hound was meant to be siege breaker, widow mines do that job, but better. A player that just a-moves with his marine/tank blindly onto a well spread minefield will find himself quickly w/o any army. With 1s upgrade, you can even drop them on top of tanks and burrow, wiping out four to six tanks if clumped.
I would hardly call widow mines or widow mine drops a siege breaker. Imo the most reliable siege breaker the Terran have been given in the beta is the new seeker missile.
Edit: Why is this still even being discussed? The Warhound was a travesty.
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On January 17 2013 20:42 DeCoup wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 13:07 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On January 17 2013 12:44 Obeast96 wrote:
I would just like to throw out an idea. It may sound stupid, but at least think about it.
What if we made Warhounds melee units with bonus damage vs mechanical, a bit slower than stalkers, around the same health, and made haywire missiles a manual ability? Idk why it would make sense, but I just felt like giving it some thought War hound was meant to be siege breaker, widow mines do that job, but better. A player that just a-moves with his marine/tank blindly onto a well spread minefield will find himself quickly w/o any army. With 1s upgrade, you can even drop them on top of tanks and burrow, wiping out four to six tanks if clumped. I would hardly call widow mines or widow mine drops a siege breaker. Imo the most reliable siege breaker the Terran have been given in the beta is the new seeker missile. Edit: Why is this still even being discussed? The Warhound was a travesty.
I would argue +2/+2 well split mass marines/medivac being a better breaker that SM, my suggestion for those opening mech.
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no. The warhound was a boring unit. mech is interesting because it's asymmetrical. bw style mech was interesting because it played differently than other things. calling the warhound "mech" because it was technically a mechanical unit is not a good reason for it to exist.
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EPT
