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People say "chess match" like it is a bad thing. Starcraft fundamentally IS most closely analogous to chess, as games go.
Part of the reason why chess is such an interesting game is that the position of the pieces has many more possible variations than the simple count of the pieces.
Units in a strategy game are not like poker chips. You don't just push them into the middle and have a showdown. The position of the pieces relative to each other, and relative to the terrain features of the map, are what gives the game such depth for minimal surface complexity. Simple pieces, when there are many of them and with different relations to each other, creates a very complicated picture very quickly.
Blizzard has made there be fewer pieces in SC2 due to higher supply costs. They have made those pieces more mobile, increasing the space each piece occupies on the board. The result? Most of the time, every piece can be anywhere in such a short amount of time that position is almost irrelevant. Defense is almost irrelevant. Which Blizzard "remedied" by making there be fewer bases, and no need or even advantage in taking more bases, so there are fewer places to defend anyway. Fewer places, full stop, even.
The number of points of interest on the board, the movement of force concentrations across the board, all this is sort of missing from SC2. Even just having more pieces in more places would be an improvement. But you can't build half a Colossus, and you can't put one Colossus in two places. And you can't send a Colossus off with a small force- it will just die for free. So.... everyone make deathballs so we can have deterministic balanced gameplay, yes? That way we can vigorously point to balanced win rates and say everything must be OK right?
After all, it isn't like more skilled players should win a disproportionate amount of the time. A bad player should still be able to beat a good one, right? They just need to... build... the... right.... units............
Oh why do I even bother, Blizzard is far too stupid to understand sarcasm in text form. The point is that very good players should be able to win a fight even if they are outmatched. This is not rock-paper-scissors where me going X means I win against your Y. Different pieces have different mechanics, like pieces on a chess board. But they don't "counter" each other.
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On January 07 2013 19:14 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 19:06 SheaR619 wrote:On January 07 2013 18:57 [F_]aths wrote:
A slow push style is hard to watch. Wol already has a lot of units which cannot be a-moved while getting the most out of them. It depends, many people actually like watching slow push style. During the time when sc2 first got release and tank marine was standard for TvZ, it was VERY exciting. TvZ was definitely the most exciting match up by far because it was also the most dynamic. Slow push style also increase skill cap of the game and make the game not a big snow ball affect. It require skill, strategy etc etc. Compare to ZvZ, a watch up of heavy micro in the beginning and then later on just come down to fungal war and a-move roach hydra (with little micro on forming concave). I would think that all BW fan would appreciate and like slow push style while most of the complaint are from the sc2. Indeed, I remember some TvT (tank versus tank, hehe) games from earlier GSL seasons, some of them developing into a viking or even battlecruiser massacre. Those game were very exciting. But to keep them exciting, they should be rare I think. If we can expect a tank turtle in a TvT, the game gets stale. I guess that Blizzard also is afraid of the watchability for new viewers who get confused by a tank versus tank game of chess. I hope that SC2 will not be too much driven into pure action and still allow for strategic setups with slow pushes, but those game should not happen too often.
Well the thing with slow pushes is that it is playing aggressive and I think you have tank push and turtling mixed up. It a way gain map control when going tank based mech. If you leave the tank push alone, then he will just unseige everything and seige outside your door. Similar to how ling muta baneling was back in early release. The zerg had to keep pressure with threat of baneling so tank has to slow push when engaging on creep other wise they get ambush by lings and baneling kill terran bio. Slow push ISNT turtling because you are actually exerting pressure on the enemy because he knows that with every passing minute, the enemy is getting closer and will soon gain enough map control to deny expansion. THAT is tank push. What you are talking about is turtleing and when terran mass and have no pressence of map control. A good way to distinguish is that tank push you are fighting for map control and turtling you have no map control.
I do agree that TvT can get stale if terran just mass tanks but the thing TvT is that it is the MOST dynamic match up. You can go bio, mech, or bio mech. Most player generally rather go bio vs mech anyways so you dont see mass tanks vs mass tank war in TvT. In the rare situation that it does happen, the other terran is generally force to go air. This only happen because of WATCH TOWER. Which is already starting to fade away from map pool more and more over time, similar to yellow mineral. Even if they are present, they are not in retarded position like they were uses too where tank scan siege up and control half the map (ex: shatter temple, metalpolis). So the chance of this happening isnt that common. I would believe with a tank buff, it wouldnt change much. Dont forget medivac change too, along with map getting bigger, so mech is already getting weaker. Also hellbat does nothing in TvT match up except dropping purposes. I would think that a tank buff wouldnt affect TvT that much. (as long they make mine not hit air which is what I believe is to be going to happen soon).
Regarding tanks in TvT, they are what make TvT the most skill base match up. Nada once said that to test if a map is balance, he would play TvT because it is the strategic match up and ensure no place on the map can be exploited. There is NOTHING in TvT that when you lose, you can blame the game. It not like ZvZ where you get the most fungal or like PvP where who make the most collosus and win, it actually the most skill based match up in the game. If we wanted to find who is the best starcraft player is, everyone should play terran. This is all possible due to tanks. Some viewers might not like it but there are many way to be aggressive with going tanks, it just really depends on situation.
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On January 07 2013 19:11 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 18:59 MarcH wrote:
Personally i belive a buff to tanks is all thats needed and may even be required in hots with the viper.
The other point the OP mentions is terrans lack of early game options and a solution could be to remove medivacs and put medics and dropships back into the game. This gives terran bio more early map presence and sustainability you can keep the dropship speed upgrade aswell. The only issue i see with it at the moment are baneling ling surrounds early on being possibly too powerfull and bio lategame getting a nerf and collosus being less effective vs T (you only need a starport for vikings), this may also increase reaper use as T has a lot more rax about and could use them as a way to get multi pronged agression to work as a pure bio force.
TLDR is
. Buff tanks in siege mode
. Get rid of medivacs bring back dropship and medic
Thoughts? I don't think that SC2 gets better when it is partly reverted to BW. Terran can wall himself in, preventing early scouting. He cannot have too many early options when the game should be a strategy game instead of a coinflip. And like in BW, it's not only the strategy but also the execution: Even if I know that he will do a certain strategy, I want to be required to execute my defense well.
The post is not directly suggesting reverting back toward BW from SC2 but is a response to the points made by the OP that terran lacks early game options and that mech needs the warhound to work. Also how many options do you think T has at the moment as its not that many. Besides 2rax all vs Z openings are fast expand into reactor hellion normally with a fast 3rd after that and against P their are some early proxys but those are all figured out now and only really work when P is being greedy and not even all the time and beyond that its fast expand into 3rax but you cant move out till you get medivacs really. The medic sugestion was a way to changr this and give small bio forces more map presence early game whilst not making it to OP so that it cant be killed or stopped and while this and a buff to tanks are heading bact towards BW that wasnt the purpose of the suggestions but was the result of me trying to find simple solutions to issues raised by the Op
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On January 07 2013 19:54 MarcH wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 19:11 [F_]aths wrote:On January 07 2013 18:59 MarcH wrote:
Personally i belive a buff to tanks is all thats needed and may even be required in hots with the viper.
The other point the OP mentions is terrans lack of early game options and a solution could be to remove medivacs and put medics and dropships back into the game. This gives terran bio more early map presence and sustainability you can keep the dropship speed upgrade aswell. The only issue i see with it at the moment are baneling ling surrounds early on being possibly too powerfull and bio lategame getting a nerf and collosus being less effective vs T (you only need a starport for vikings), this may also increase reaper use as T has a lot more rax about and could use them as a way to get multi pronged agression to work as a pure bio force.
TLDR is
. Buff tanks in siege mode
. Get rid of medivacs bring back dropship and medic
Thoughts? I don't think that SC2 gets better when it is partly reverted to BW. Terran can wall himself in, preventing early scouting. He cannot have too many early options when the game should be a strategy game instead of a coinflip. And like in BW, it's not only the strategy but also the execution: Even if I know that he will do a certain strategy, I want to be required to execute my defense well. The post is not directly suggesting reverting back toward BW from SC2 but is a response to the points made by the OP that terran lacks early game options and that mech needs the warhound to work. Also how many options do you think T has at the moment as its not that many. Besides 2rax all vs Z openings are fast expand into reactor hellion normally with a fast 3rd after that and against P their are some early proxys but those are all figured out now and only really work when P is being greedy and not even all the time and beyond that its fast expand into 3rax but you cant move out till you get medivacs really. The medic sugestion was a way to changr this and give small bio forces more map presence early game whilst not making it to OP so that it cant be killed or stopped and while this and a buff to tanks are heading bact towards BW that wasnt the purpose of the suggestions but was the result of me trying to find simple solutions to issues raised by the Op
I would say that the OP extrapolates quite a bit. We don't know yet how Hots will develop. Terran should not get too many early options anyway so that he still can be scouted in time. We have to see if reapers can be useful in TvZ or if early widow mines are viable.
Sugessting big changes like the introduction of the medic has probably some consequences for the game we are not able to see due to lack of understanding. I never played the warhound (because I got beta access a bit later) so I don't know how much the warhound improves mech viability. So the following are just some thoughts about game design: What is the warhound? An anti-tank unit? That would be like the protoss immortal. A mini-thor? Then we don't really need the thor anymore. A mech-marauder? We have the marauder already.
The complete removal still feels a bit over the top. I like the artwork of the warhound and would have liked to build that unit just because it looks so mechanical. I also think that it would be acceptable to have a unit which overlaps with others. On the other hand, LotV is still to come. Introducing such units now could pose issues for Lotv.
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On January 07 2013 21:34 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 19:54 MarcH wrote:On January 07 2013 19:11 [F_]aths wrote:On January 07 2013 18:59 MarcH wrote:
Personally i belive a buff to tanks is all thats needed and may even be required in hots with the viper.
The other point the OP mentions is terrans lack of early game options and a solution could be to remove medivacs and put medics and dropships back into the game. This gives terran bio more early map presence and sustainability you can keep the dropship speed upgrade aswell. The only issue i see with it at the moment are baneling ling surrounds early on being possibly too powerfull and bio lategame getting a nerf and collosus being less effective vs T (you only need a starport for vikings), this may also increase reaper use as T has a lot more rax about and could use them as a way to get multi pronged agression to work as a pure bio force.
TLDR is
. Buff tanks in siege mode
. Get rid of medivacs bring back dropship and medic
Thoughts? I don't think that SC2 gets better when it is partly reverted to BW. Terran can wall himself in, preventing early scouting. He cannot have too many early options when the game should be a strategy game instead of a coinflip. And like in BW, it's not only the strategy but also the execution: Even if I know that he will do a certain strategy, I want to be required to execute my defense well. The post is not directly suggesting reverting back toward BW from SC2 but is a response to the points made by the OP that terran lacks early game options and that mech needs the warhound to work. Also how many options do you think T has at the moment as its not that many. Besides 2rax all vs Z openings are fast expand into reactor hellion normally with a fast 3rd after that and against P their are some early proxys but those are all figured out now and only really work when P is being greedy and not even all the time and beyond that its fast expand into 3rax but you cant move out till you get medivacs really. The medic sugestion was a way to changr this and give small bio forces more map presence early game whilst not making it to OP so that it cant be killed or stopped and while this and a buff to tanks are heading bact towards BW that wasnt the purpose of the suggestions but was the result of me trying to find simple solutions to issues raised by the Op I would say that the OP extrapolates quite a bit. We don't know yet how Hots will develop. Terran should not get too many early options anyway so that he still can be scouted in time. We have to see if reapers can be useful in TvZ or if early widow mines are viable. Sugessting big changes like the introduction of the medic has probably some consequences for the game we are not able to see due to lack of understanding. I never played the warhoung (because I got beta access a bit later) so I don't know how much the warhound improves mech viability. So the following are just some thoughts about game design: What is the warhound? An anti-tank unit? That would be like the protoss immortal. A mini-thor? Then we don't really need the thor anymore. A mech-marauder? We have the marauder already.
The issue with the warhound when it was first introduced was that it made bio play pointless as you had all tye mobility of bio with none of the drawbacks (well mech cant shoot up well but vikings) as its very durable and has greater potentioal to trade efficiantly.
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If warhound was brought back, I agree that it shouldn't simply be and A-move unit.
How about giving it an ability that has to be cast manualy (which can be called haiwire missiles, or something else). e.g.:
1. that has short range, but does rather heavy splashdamage (think spidermines). It would be a sort of crow control, but you would more or less have to sacrifice the warhound, as it would move forward and into rage of the whole protoss force.
2. or has short or medium range, has small AOE that momentarly disables units (can be all units, or just mechanical).
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On January 07 2013 19:49 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 19:14 [F_]aths wrote:On January 07 2013 19:06 SheaR619 wrote:On January 07 2013 18:57 [F_]aths wrote:
A slow push style is hard to watch. Wol already has a lot of units which cannot be a-moved while getting the most out of them. It depends, many people actually like watching slow push style. During the time when sc2 first got release and tank marine was standard for TvZ, it was VERY exciting. TvZ was definitely the most exciting match up by far because it was also the most dynamic. Slow push style also increase skill cap of the game and make the game not a big snow ball affect. It require skill, strategy etc etc. Compare to ZvZ, a watch up of heavy micro in the beginning and then later on just come down to fungal war and a-move roach hydra (with little micro on forming concave). I would think that all BW fan would appreciate and like slow push style while most of the complaint are from the sc2. Indeed, I remember some TvT (tank versus tank, hehe) games from earlier GSL seasons, some of them developing into a viking or even battlecruiser massacre. Those game were very exciting. But to keep them exciting, they should be rare I think. If we can expect a tank turtle in a TvT, the game gets stale. I guess that Blizzard also is afraid of the watchability for new viewers who get confused by a tank versus tank game of chess. I hope that SC2 will not be too much driven into pure action and still allow for strategic setups with slow pushes, but those game should not happen too often. Well the thing with slow pushes is that it is playing aggressive and I think you have tank push and turtling mixed up. It a way gain map control when going tank based mech. If you leave the tank push alone, then he will just unseige everything and seige outside your door. Similar to how ling muta baneling was back in early release. The zerg had to keep pressure with threat of baneling so tank has to slow push when engaging on creep other wise they get ambush by lings and baneling kill terran bio. Slow push ISNT turtling because you are actually exerting pressure on the enemy because he knows that with every passing minute, the enemy is getting closer and will soon gain enough map control to deny expansion. THAT is tank push. What you are talking about is turtleing and when terran mass and have no pressence of map control. A good way to distinguish is that tank push you are fighting for map control and turtling you have no map control.
How do you cast those games? "He now controls this space for 10 minutes and his opponent still cannot find an opening and tries to expand while the terran uses drops to harass expansions." I don't think it would be the best for the game if all armies are constantly moving, but at least the caster can comment on the movements.
If positional tank games are rare, the commentators can point out how rare and therefore exciting this game is.
On January 07 2013 19:49 SheaR619 wrote:I do agree that TvT can get stale if terran just mass tanks but the thing TvT is that it is the MOST dynamic match up. You can go bio, mech, or bio mech. Most player generally rather go bio vs mech anyways so you dont see mass tanks vs mass tank war in TvT. In the rare situation that it does happen, the other terran is generally force to go air. This only happen because of WATCH TOWER. Which is already starting to fade away from map pool more and more over time, similar to yellow mineral. Even if they are present, they are not in retarded position like they were uses too where tank scan siege up and control half the map (ex: shatter temple, metalpolis). So the chance of this happening isnt that common. I would believe with a tank buff, it wouldnt change much. Dont forget medivac change too, along with map getting bigger, so mech is already getting weaker. Also hellbat does nothing in TvT match up except dropping purposes. I would think that a tank buff wouldnt affect TvT that much. (as long they make mine not hit air which is what I believe is to be going to happen soon).
Regarding tanks in TvT, they are what make TvT the most skill base match up. Nada once said that to test if a map is balance, he would play TvT because it is the strategic match up and ensure no place on the map can be exploited. There is NOTHING in TvT that when you lose, you can blame the game. It not like ZvZ where you get the most fungal or like PvP where who make the most collosus and win, it actually the most skill based match up in the game. If we wanted to find who is the best starcraft player is, everyone should play terran. This is all possible due to tanks. Some viewers might not like it but there are many way to be aggressive with going tanks, it just really depends on situation.
I would not declare TvT skill higher than ZvZ skill just because different areas of skill are required. Terran is incredible flexible but you need to know the right buildorder in beforehand to have the add-on switching timings right and so on. In Hots, mech and air units share the armor upgrade, this could make mech with air support better than before. (Especially as vikings are often used to get vision for the tanks.)
I am mostly concerned about diverse matches. I still want to have the possibility of a game as short as three minutes due to a successfull sixpool versus a greedy eco opening. I also want to see 45 minutes of tank contains.
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On January 07 2013 19:49 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 19:14 [F_]aths wrote:On January 07 2013 19:06 SheaR619 wrote:On January 07 2013 18:57 [F_]aths wrote:
A slow push style is hard to watch. Wol already has a lot of units which cannot be a-moved while getting the most out of them. It depends, many people actually like watching slow push style. During the time when sc2 first got release and tank marine was standard for TvZ, it was VERY exciting. TvZ was definitely the most exciting match up by far because it was also the most dynamic. Slow push style also increase skill cap of the game and make the game not a big snow ball affect. It require skill, strategy etc etc. Compare to ZvZ, a watch up of heavy micro in the beginning and then later on just come down to fungal war and a-move roach hydra (with little micro on forming concave). I would think that all BW fan would appreciate and like slow push style while most of the complaint are from the sc2. Indeed, I remember some TvT (tank versus tank, hehe) games from earlier GSL seasons, some of them developing into a viking or even battlecruiser massacre. Those game were very exciting. But to keep them exciting, they should be rare I think. If we can expect a tank turtle in a TvT, the game gets stale. I guess that Blizzard also is afraid of the watchability for new viewers who get confused by a tank versus tank game of chess. I hope that SC2 will not be too much driven into pure action and still allow for strategic setups with slow pushes, but those game should not happen too often. Well the thing with slow pushes is that it is playing aggressive and I think you have tank push and turtling mixed up. It a way gain map control when going tank based mech. If you leave the tank push alone, then he will just unseige everything and seige outside your door. Similar to how ling muta baneling was back in early release. The zerg had to keep pressure with threat of baneling so tank has to slow push when engaging on creep other wise they get ambush by lings and baneling kill terran bio. Slow push ISNT turtling because you are actually exerting pressure on the enemy because he knows that with every passing minute, the enemy is getting closer and will soon gain enough map control to deny expansion. THAT is tank push. What you are talking about is turtleing and when terran mass and have no pressence of map control. A good way to distinguish is that tank push you are fighting for map control and turtling you have no map control. I do agree that TvT can get stale if terran just mass tanks but the thing TvT is that it is the MOST dynamic match up. You can go bio, mech, or bio mech. Most player generally rather go bio vs mech anyways so you dont see mass tanks vs mass tank war in TvT. In the rare situation that it does happen, the other terran is generally force to go air. This only happen because of WATCH TOWER. Which is already starting to fade away from map pool more and more over time, similar to yellow mineral. Even if they are present, they are not in retarded position like they were uses too where tank scan siege up and control half the map (ex: shatter temple, metalpolis). So the chance of this happening isnt that common. I would believe with a tank buff, it wouldnt change much. Dont forget medivac change too, along with map getting bigger, so mech is already getting weaker. Also hellbat does nothing in TvT match up except dropping purposes. I would think that a tank buff wouldnt affect TvT that much. (as long they make mine not hit air which is what I believe is to be going to happen soon). Regarding tanks in TvT, they are what make TvT the most skill base match up. Nada once said that to test if a map is balance, he would play TvT because it is the strategic match up and ensure no place on the map can be exploited. There is NOTHING in TvT that when you lose, you can blame the game. It not like ZvZ where you get the most fungal or like PvP where who make the most collosus and win, it actually the most skill based match up in the game. If we wanted to find who is the best starcraft player is, everyone should play terran. This is all possible due to tanks. Some viewers might not like it but there are many way to be aggressive with going tanks, it just really depends on situation.
"Terran at the only ones that are good, all other races have no skill and are easy mode"
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On January 07 2013 21:46 MarcH wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 21:34 [F_]aths wrote:On January 07 2013 19:54 MarcH wrote:On January 07 2013 19:11 [F_]aths wrote:On January 07 2013 18:59 MarcH wrote:
Personally i belive a buff to tanks is all thats needed and may even be required in hots with the viper.
The other point the OP mentions is terrans lack of early game options and a solution could be to remove medivacs and put medics and dropships back into the game. This gives terran bio more early map presence and sustainability you can keep the dropship speed upgrade aswell. The only issue i see with it at the moment are baneling ling surrounds early on being possibly too powerfull and bio lategame getting a nerf and collosus being less effective vs T (you only need a starport for vikings), this may also increase reaper use as T has a lot more rax about and could use them as a way to get multi pronged agression to work as a pure bio force.
TLDR is
. Buff tanks in siege mode
. Get rid of medivacs bring back dropship and medic
Thoughts? I don't think that SC2 gets better when it is partly reverted to BW. Terran can wall himself in, preventing early scouting. He cannot have too many early options when the game should be a strategy game instead of a coinflip. And like in BW, it's not only the strategy but also the execution: Even if I know that he will do a certain strategy, I want to be required to execute my defense well. The post is not directly suggesting reverting back toward BW from SC2 but is a response to the points made by the OP that terran lacks early game options and that mech needs the warhound to work. Also how many options do you think T has at the moment as its not that many. Besides 2rax all vs Z openings are fast expand into reactor hellion normally with a fast 3rd after that and against P their are some early proxys but those are all figured out now and only really work when P is being greedy and not even all the time and beyond that its fast expand into 3rax but you cant move out till you get medivacs really. The medic sugestion was a way to changr this and give small bio forces more map presence early game whilst not making it to OP so that it cant be killed or stopped and while this and a buff to tanks are heading bact towards BW that wasnt the purpose of the suggestions but was the result of me trying to find simple solutions to issues raised by the Op I would say that the OP extrapolates quite a bit. We don't know yet how Hots will develop. Terran should not get too many early options anyway so that he still can be scouted in time. We have to see if reapers can be useful in TvZ or if early widow mines are viable. Sugessting big changes like the introduction of the medic has probably some consequences for the game we are not able to see due to lack of understanding. I never played the warhoung (because I got beta access a bit later) so I don't know how much the warhound improves mech viability. So the following are just some thoughts about game design: What is the warhound? An anti-tank unit? That would be like the protoss immortal. A mini-thor? Then we don't really need the thor anymore. A mech-marauder? We have the marauder already. The issue with the warhound when it was first introduced was that it made bio play pointless as you had all tye mobility of bio with none of the drawbacks (well mech cant shoot up well but vikings) as its very durable and has greater potentioal to trade efficiantly.
Yes. But those things could have been fixed with numbers. I agree with qxc on his series "fixing the game" (though the title is a bit pretentious) that the most common disadvantage of a unit in SC2 is that the unit is slow. I guess that a balanced warhound would probably be a boring unit.
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Buff siege tank. That's all.
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On January 05 2013 10:39 rysecake wrote:
no it wasn't a mistake.
the core of terran mech must be centered around the siege tank. not a marauder in a gundam suit.
Lol@gundam suit . Yes I feel that it was good the war hound was removed the unit was redonk and as much as a zerg player i like seeing protoss die , seeing them die to mass war hound was kinda sad 
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On January 07 2013 22:44 syroz wrote:
Buff siege tank. That's all.
nah it's fine really, you don't want to force TvT and TvZ even more towards mech. Those matchups have almost the right balance between bio and mech imo where both or even a combination can work quite well, something BW never even achieved.
Just fix the immortal and widow mine and mech can work in TvP too. Remove hardened shield (or let tanks ignore it, but that's an ugly fix) and let widow mines actually kill stalkers in one shot again..
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On January 05 2013 10:03 algorithm0r wrote:
I agree that Terran may need another "new" unit in HotS but I don't really think it is in the mech line. Your counter arguments are strong but shouldn't we find something that Terran needs more?
Terran needs the Goliath back plain and simple. Mech can't be viable without it. Especially with the tempest. Terran will need a ground unit that can be effective against both air and ground and the Goliath fit that role especially with its ranged missiles.
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On January 07 2013 21:55 gronnelg wrote:
If warhound was brought back, I agree that it shouldn't simply be and A-move unit.
How about giving it an ability that has to be cast manualy (which can be called haiwire missiles, or something else). e.g.:
1. that has short range, but does rather heavy splashdamage (think spidermines). It would be a sort of crow control, but you would more or less have to sacrifice the warhound, as it would move forward and into rage of the whole protoss force.
2. or has short or medium range, has small AOE that momentarly disables units (can be all units, or just mechanical).
Just wanted to chime in and say I think if warhounds were gonna be brought back, your #2 idea would be an excellent way to make them a 'mechanical counter' without being an a move unit. Make it like a 5 second version of lockdown from BW, a great way to stop a protoss ball from moving into you without incurring heavy losses, but relatively hard to use in TvT (in any mech vs mech scenario people tend to siege and whittle at each other rather than move straight in, so it'll be hard to get in range to cast) and obviously wont effect tvz.
Add this, give them a decent ground attack about the same speed as a stalker (allow for brief repositioning steps between shots) and a good anti armored single target attack... perhaps it will be a good unit.
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You just described the Marauder, but which stuns instead of inflicting a short slow.
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On January 07 2013 22:59 Markwerf wrote:nah it's fine really, you don't want to force TvT and TvZ even more towards mech. Those matchups have almost the right balance between bio and mech imo where both or even a combination can work quite well, something BW never even achieved. Just fix the immortal and widow mine and mech can work in TvP too. Remove hardened shield (or let tanks ignore it, but that's an ugly fix) and let widow mines actually kill stalkers in one shot again..
make Hardened shields a researchable which the user can use and had a 20 sec cooldown? (lasts for 10 seconds)
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On January 07 2013 23:02 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 10:03 algorithm0r wrote:
I agree that Terran may need another "new" unit in HotS but I don't really think it is in the mech line. Your counter arguments are strong but shouldn't we find something that Terran needs more? Terran needs the Goliath back plain and simple. Mech can't be viable without it. Especially with the tempest. Terran will need a ground unit that can be effective against both air and ground and the Goliath fit that role especially with its ranged missiles.
Range 8 Goliath vs a range 15 tempest i dont see that working out tbh. Terran already has the viking and thats good enough anti air for mech when you factor in the added bonus of them being able to spot for your tanks. A single reactor starport is all that you need to deal with any P air and BL's as goliaths will be next to useless against any number of those. The solution is to buff goliath AA range but that would break the unit.
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I do feel like Terran needs a new unit, but Blizzard's initial design of Terran was well done, and almost all roles are filled, and it's really hard to find a missing role that needs to be filled. The warhound was a marauder built from a factory, it's really not something that makes me excited as a Terran player. The goliath is just boring and unimaginative to me as well, lets not bring back a unit simply because it existed in another RTS.
I would like to play with a new 3rd tier air unit, something that really complements mech well, similar to how the medivac complements bio and keeps that unit composition viable in to the late game. I'm thinking like the repair ability of the science vessel in the WoL campaign, and something that can counter the immortal's hardened shields.
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I liked warhounds, prettymuch beause of their size. except stalkers, and in some situation roaches, units have to little occolusion size for their dmg output, which results in less need of good concaves. concaving was hupe in bw ans I think its one of the key elemets that we coudlt make good use of in sc2, except in zvz.
warhounds huge size meant they accually need a good and deep concave to be fully effective, even with their above avarage 7 range.
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Singapore147 Posts
I think removing it was the right option, but removing it without replacing it was not. Clearly it was meant to fill up some sort of hole in the Terran arsenal which remains unfilled.
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EPT
