EPTTvP Mech still not viable? - Page 5
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 HotS |
|
Aquila-
516 Posts
| ||
|
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On October 17 2012 01:58 Aquila- wrote: Well a hellion is the same supply as a mine, so if I have to decide between them in lategame, I would rather take the mine since it does more damage quickly and also deals splash. We will have to see what composition works better but from what I have seen hellions are not that great vs other units. And yeah that video was also prepatch, now there is the tempest problem too in the midgame. The hellion is minerals only, which will free up gas for ghosts for EMP to deal with the archons and knock down the harden shield. Mines provide no meat to the army and the protoss can move through them to quickly. Seige tanks need time to get enough vollies off to be cost effective. Battle hellions provide more HP, are easier to move around and engage the protoss at maximum range. | ||
|
The WingNut
United States35 Posts
One thing that I have seen him do, which I did not see in this game, was using positional nukes. Nukes are a great way to protect flanks/buy time on the terran side. He needed more time and shouldn't have ever took that last battle with the unit numbers/composition he had, much less the horrible position. Maybe he could have turtled into more tanks/ghosts and sacked a bunch of SCVs? | ||
|
one-one-one
Sweden551 Posts
On October 17 2012 02:13 The WingNut wrote: I know Avilo frequents this forum. I wonder if he would chime in (or if he gave a commentary on his stream that someone could look up) on what happened in that game, from his perspective. One thing that I have seen him do, which I did not see in this game, was using positional nukes. Nukes are a great way to protect flanks/buy time on the terran side. He needed more time and shouldn't have ever took that last battle with the unit numbers/composition he had, much less the horrible position. Maybe he could have turtled into more tanks/ghosts and sacked a bunch of SCVs? It is a Husky video. Husky is known to have an extreme protoss bias. Surprisingly enough there are many videos with protoss winning on his channel. Avilo played 2 sick games vs WhiteRa the other day. Husky casted the 3rd game which Avilo lost while making major mistakes ... If you wanna see good mech play you should probably watch Avilo's stream or why not Morrow's stream. Do that instead of this endless theorycrafting. | ||
|
SuperYo1000
United States880 Posts
| ||
|
The WingNut
United States35 Posts
| ||
|
Aquila-
516 Posts
On October 17 2012 02:13 The WingNut wrote: I know Avilo frequents this forum. I wonder if he would chime in (or if he gave a commentary on his stream that someone could look up) on what happened in that game, from his perspective. One thing that I have seen him do, which I did not see in this game, was using positional nukes. Nukes are a great way to protect flanks/buy time on the terran side. He needed more time and shouldn't have ever took that last battle with the unit numbers/composition he had, much less the horrible position. Maybe he could have turtled into more tanks/ghosts and sacked a bunch of SCVs? He did "turtle" meaning he had a 200 supply army sieged up to cover his bases. You see what happened, toss killed him without problems. | ||
|
The WingNut
United States35 Posts
On October 17 2012 04:09 Aquila- wrote: He did "turtle" meaning he had a 200 supply army sieged up to cover his bases. You see what happened, toss killed him without problems. Fair enough. All I was asking is: if he had more ghosts/tanks and fewer SCVs, would that have helped? Or maybe his mistake was attempting mech in the first place? Is it just doomed to fail if Protoss knows what they are doing? Just questions. | ||
|
BoggieMan
520 Posts
also feedback and air transistions make mech not worth using your time to master it compared to bio. I played over 500 tvp mech games in WOL and i was exited for it to be viable in hots, but it is not and will not be before protoss cannot play costeffecient against it. Also like avilo stated in one of his long rants, there is no viable macro opening that terran can do with mech against protoss. You have to transistion into it from 2 or 3 bases, which pulls you behind if protoss knows how mech works. | ||
|
Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Overall I just don't get why they even bothered to try and make mech viable in the first place in TvP. There are just so many things that are problematic for mech. Sure mech builds will get a bit smoother eventually but protoss play against mech will improve way more if mech is actually used much. Virtually every time you see mech doing alright the protoss doesn't play all that well against it because they never really had to nor face it often. If P uses the mobility advantage they have (which they are not used to in PvT) then mech is in real problems. Blink stalkers, air harass etc are the really problemetic parts for mech not too mention a straight up immortal/archon army does quite well against mech if the EMP's are off. The new tempest makes the mech problem even worse I think as they are easily available now (the +massive bonus doesn't really matter vs terran anyway). | ||
|
mlspmatt
Canada404 Posts
They could have easily fixed the warhound, even turned it into a Goliath, instead of eliminating it. The Widow mine will have many practical uses in TvP, but not in late game which is where Terran mech needed the help. Not to mention Terran can invest all his resources in multiple factories, many many upgrades, to get his mech ball up and running, then Protoss switches to air and All those investments in mech were useless. Terran must abandon everything throw down a bunch of starports and make Vikings because there's no useful anti air in the factory. Tech switches for Terran are so much harder than the other races Zerg can switch on a dime, and Protoss only needs a Templar Archives and Robo tech to switch at will, sharing upgrades between everything. | ||
|
Yoshi Kirishima
United States10357 Posts
i'll just say that i feel tvp mech does work slightly better in HotS, even with the tempests added, since the hellbat helps quite a lot and you can punish no detection (snipe observers with viking/thor) with not only banshees but spider mines, allowing you a way to punish them without having to get starport tech (if you chose that route) in WoL which prevented you from also getting early ghosts or high number of tanks One thing I don't understand though is that if cloak banshee harass is easier to deal with now, and scouting is much better with the hallucination now, why do they not BUFF TANKS? The only real fear of buffing tanks in WoL is making the 1/1/1 TvP all-in too strong Already in TvZ you see tanks are not quite strong enough in situations where they "should" be, and terran's early game is nerfed even more in HoL with spores at pool tech. If terran's early game keeps getting hurt like this, why not buff the tank, so that bio can scale better lategame? And it doesn't need to be a big buff, even +5 more against armored would be good. It wouldn't hurt TvT as mech isn't even that popular, and marine tank vs marine tank would both have tanks, it would only affect bio vs marine tank (but that doesn't even happen, they both end up getting tanks at some point). TvZ mech isn't even that popular, and TvP is almost nonexistant. | ||
|
Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 17 2012 05:00 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: since i don't want to argue about what "viable" means, or how you should play the game, or how different things work at different skill levels, or how many things in the past were conceived as very unviable but were suddenly very strong and then nerfed after... (as these things have been discussed over and over in many mech threads already...) i'll just say that i feel tvp mech does work slightly better in HotS, even with the tempests added, since the hellbat helps quite a lot and you can punish no detection (snipe observers with viking/thor) with not only banshees but spider mines, allowing you a way to punish them without having to get starport tech (if you chose that route) in WoL which prevented you from also getting early ghosts or high number of tanks One thing I don't understand though is that if cloak banshee harass is easier to deal with now, and scouting is much better with the hallucination now, why do they not BUFF TANKS? The only real fear of buffing tanks in WoL is making the 1/1/1 TvP all-in too strong Already in TvZ you see tanks are not quite strong enough in situations where they "should" be, and terran's early game is nerfed even more in HoL with spores at pool tech. If terran's early game keeps getting hurt like this, why not buff the tank, so that bio can scale better lategame? And it doesn't need to be a big buff, even +5 more against armored would be good. It wouldn't hurt TvT as mech isn't even that popular, and marine tank vs marine tank would both have tanks, it would only affect bio vs marine tank (but that doesn't even happen, they both end up getting tanks at some point). TvZ mech isn't even that popular, and TvP is almost nonexistant. Because blizzard wants to get the design of the new units right first. They have said numerous times now that there will be a complete overhaul of WoL balancing after they are satisfied with getting the new units somewhere close to where they want them to be. About the tank in particular, there was a comment by DB about that "longer siege animation, stronger tank" - idea, that he thought that this was interesting. The +3(+7 vs armored) upgrade change looks quite telltale that they experimented with the tank before they undid all changes ("fixed a bug") for the HotS beta 1.0 version. There is no unit in the game that upgrades in a greater scale than its base damage scales. | ||
|
Blamajama
156 Posts
That's the underlying issue. Yes Ghosts need to be impelented as a supporting unit, just as tanks or Ravens with bio builds. I don't have a problem with that. The problem is there is no synergy. Terran always has an extra upgrade they need. Toss and zerg require only three and they can switch unit comps on a dime. Other than that, mech just needs a high DPS unit. That's the real issue. With Vikings being so useless on the ground, why not make them Air only? Make mines similar to auto turrents on the Raven. Then get rid of auto turrent on the Raven and open another slot for another ability on the Raven? Why does mech need another splash unit? | ||
|
Antylamon
United States1981 Posts
On October 14 2012 17:26 Sophia wrote: Siege Tanks are just terrible against: Zealot, Immortal, Colossi, Tempest/Void -_- Siege Tanks are good against: Stalker, Templar ??? I gave up on Blizzard. They just can't balance the game right. TvP will probably be the same in HotS, maybe with 1-2 small changes. To make Mech Viable Blizz would need to buff Tanks and that would break the game even more. On the contrary, Tanks do really well against Colossi. That's actually a niche they fill in biotank TvP. | ||
|
StarkHarrow
3 Posts
On October 17 2012 05:00 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: One thing I don't understand though is that if cloak banshee harass is easier to deal with now, and scouting is much better with the hallucination now, why do they not BUFF TANKS? The only real fear of buffing tanks in WoL is making the 1/1/1 TvP all-in too strong A "damages given by upgrades" buff could do the trick. Right now it's a +3 bonus attack, it could be buffed in order to strengthen the late game efficiency of tank without destroying the early/mid game balance. But that would still be a partial part of the Mech TvP problem adressed here... Edit : I also think a base damage buff could be useful, but not against armored unit, just regular, base damage buff... Like you said, maybe something like +5 | ||
|
SuperYo1000
United States880 Posts
On October 17 2012 05:44 Blamajama wrote: Synergize the upgrades. That's how you fix it. How do you make battle helions bio with mech upgrades? How do you go marine tank against zerg and then switch on a dime to Viking to counter BL if you didn't end the game earlier? How do you switch to Viking against toss when you have been upgrading 3/3 mech all game (at the very least, zerg/toss air upgrades is also delayed, making the latter scenario more reasonable to adjust to). That's the underlying issue. Yes Ghosts need to be impelented as a supporting unit, just as tanks or Ravens with bio builds. I don't have a problem with that. The problem is there is no synergy. Terran always has an extra upgrade they need. Toss and zerg require only three and they can switch unit comps on a dime. Other than that, mech just needs a high DPS unit. That's the real issue. With Vikings being so useless on the ground, why not make them Air only? Make mines similar to auto turrents on the Raven. Then get rid of auto turrent on the Raven and open another slot for another ability on the Raven? Why does mech need another splash unit? you do realize that thor has the highest dps of any unit in the game right? | ||
|
Yoshi Kirishima
United States10357 Posts
On October 17 2012 05:42 Big J wrote: Because blizzard wants to get the design of the new units right first. They have said numerous times now that there will be a complete overhaul of WoL balancing after they are satisfied with getting the new units somewhere close to where they want them to be. About the tank in particular, there was a comment by DB about that "longer siege animation, stronger tank" - idea, that he thought that this was interesting. The +3(+7 vs armored) upgrade change looks quite telltale that they experimented with the tank before they undid all changes ("fixed a bug") for the HotS beta 1.0 version. There is no unit in the game that upgrades in a greater scale than its base damage scales. Oh really, did not know that, thanks! I always have faith in blizzard but get a bit impatient sometimes. Also to the one suggesting "synergizing" upgrades... you are really missing important concepts in the design of SC2 Hellbats are NOT supposed to be bio units. They can (intentional or not) supplement bio forces late game as a support unit in a bio composition as a MECH unit (probably more for TvP). In TvZ in WoL, the Tank is already like this. Vikings already counter BLs and Colossus even without upgrades -- that's how the game is designed. Upgrading Vikings will help sure but you absolutely do not need even upgrades for your Vikings to be able to do its job. Also you fail to see that the game is balanced around the fact that terran should and eventually probably needs to upgrade its support units' atk/def. Hence, having to upgrade more than just 2 things for Terran does NOT make them weak. You even contradict yourself by criticizing that Hellbats will not work for bio because they don't share bio upgrades, but then saying that it's fine to have supporting units such as Ghosts for Mech and non-bio units (tanks and ravens) for bio. Also what do you mean exactly by synergizing? Support units definitely synergize with the units they support. Also I disagree with vikings being so useless on the ground. They do have their uses; for example, if you miscouted or such and have too many vikings, you can land them to help tank for your army. Sure you may lose them all, but if you keep your tanks alive and win the battle then they served their purpose. And it's not like they aren't strong AA already. | ||
|
Sissors
1395 Posts
On October 17 2012 05:52 Antylamon wrote: On the contrary, Tanks do really well against Colossi. That's actually a niche they fill in biotank TvP. The problem is, they don't. Sure if you are early-mid game when both sides have only very few they do semi-reasonable, but when numbers grow the colossi can always bring their full combined fire power on one siege tank, while generally only a fraction of the siege tanks can return fire. And that is already the case when the siege tanks are quite balled-up. One of these days more protos will realise their huge mobility advantage over mech, and then you would want to do what you see in TvT: making siege lines. Then the result will really become that colossi can take out the siege tanks one at a time. | ||
|
Ry2D2
United States429 Posts
On October 14 2012 16:05 MockHamill wrote: My experience so far in beta is that mech works excellent in TvT and TvZ but not in TvP. Widow mines do very little against Protoss since they can kill all the mines before getting into range. Hellbats protect the Tanks against Zealots much better then hellions do, but you still lose to mass Immortals. Ghosts works but it is hard to get enough resources for both Mech, Ghosts and upgrades. Is anyone successful with mech in TvP given equally skilled opponents? If so please describe in detail how you play the matchup. Let's be honest, no army ever wins by having only one composition unless it's something cheesy. You'd think terrans wouldn't mind adding some marines to their mech comps to counter immortals but they don't. When terran mech they go full mech even late game, I would recommend a little more diversity in mech armies since mass immortal literally will own any factory-based unit composition. | ||
| ||
