EPTThis is probably one of the most BW like games ive seen, just imagine it without the toss floating so much
more tuning and balancing could make mech alot more viable.
Morrow has also had some decent games on his stream.
TvP Mech still not viable? - Page 2
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MasterCynical
505 Posts
This is probably one of the most BW like games ive seen, just imagine it without the toss floating so much more tuning and balancing could make mech alot more viable. Morrow has also had some decent games on his stream. | ||
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papaz
Sweden4149 Posts
1. P sees the factories, puts down a stargate and stops massing those zealots (hellions/hellbats get easily picked off by immortal/stalkers). 2. Whatever composition P chooses (stargate units, collosi/archons) just mass immortals with it. Now whatever tech P choose there are those immortals that T has to deal with. Sometimes I see some ghosts, sometimes marines going supporting the mech army. Either way only mech army is too difficult since immortals counter basically everything in mech. Hence mech alone doesn't seem viable at the very typ without some bio support. Maybe this is working is intended, either way it's sad that is the way mech is. Fortunately there are many more patches to come. | ||
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pmp10
3349 Posts
On October 15 2012 16:13 papaz wrote: Watching MorroW/Dragon stream this is basically how mech goes. 1. P sees the factories, puts down a stargate and stops massing those zealots (hellions/hellbats get easily picked off by immortal/stalkers). 2. Whatever composition P chooses (stargate units, collosi/archons) just mass immortals with it. Now whatever tech P choose there are those immortals that T has to deal with. Sometimes I see some ghosts, sometimes marines going supporting the mech army. Either way only mech army is too difficult since immortals counter basically everything in mech. Hence mech alone doesn't seem viable at the very typ without some bio support. Maybe this is working is intended, either way it's sad that is the way mech is. Fortunately there are many more patches to come. As is mech TvP will simply never be viable without ghosts. The problem is that it doesn't look viable even with them. | ||
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SuperYo1000
United States880 Posts
On October 15 2012 16:37 pmp10 wrote: As is mech TvP will simply never be viable without ghosts. The problem is that it doesn't look viable even with them. I dont get this mentallty.....protoss HAS to have have at least 2 tech trees to deal with (true mech) but you complain that you have to have something else in it? so what if you have to put a few ghost in there....land a good emp and all the immortals die to straight up tank fire. have vikings with your mech and concentrate on sniping the observers....mech can deal with robo easily without the observers. If protoss is stupid enough to be baited into your juicy tank line without observers widow mine melts them just cuz you cant have all factory units doesnt mean factory units arent viable | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
That mobility problem also severely hampers the effectiveness of ghosts. Even if you land perfect EMPs, the toss can simply retreat. That doesnt really work if you got a ball of very angry bio stimming after you, it works perfectly if the terran has to pack his siege tanks first. Then you either got enough time to recharge shields, or he engages you without siege tank support/with unsieged tanks. | ||
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pmp10
3349 Posts
On October 15 2012 16:50 SuperYo1000 wrote: I dont get this mentallty.....protoss HAS to have have at least 2 tech trees to deal with (true mech) but you complain that you have to have something else in it? so what if you have to put a few ghost in there....land a good emp and all the immortals die to straight up tank fire. have vikings with your mech and concentrate on sniping the observers....mech can deal with robo easily without the observers. If protoss is stupid enough to be baited into your juicy tank line without observers widow mine melts them just cuz you cant have all factory units doesnt mean factory units arent viable Making factory units viable is not the same as making mech viable. Just because tanks are used in 1-1-1 and hellions in medivac drops doesn't mean a macro game with factory-heavy unit composition makes sense. And nobody complains about the necessity of ghosts in TvP. It's that mech+ghosts is not looking good compared to bio+ghosts and that means that variation will remain unused. | ||
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skyyan
United States74 Posts
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StarkHarrow
3 Posts
It's often said that the strenght of Mech comes from its Firepower once in position, in its rewarding positionnal play. The drawbacks being that Mech is very immobile and weak if caught unguard. Now, i'm not that strong as a player myself, playing as a Gold level on EU servers, but here what i frequently see in my games against Protoss : I am holding a strong position (like the middle ground on Shakuras Plateau), with something like 20-25 Tanks, Ghosts, Hellion and some Vikings (if there are collossi) as Supports with upgrades on par with my opponent... And then, a huge ball of Zealots, Archons, Immortals/Colossi and Stalkers comes to the party, just charge right in the middle and kills everything. In most cases, we pretty much trade our army on these encounters if i land my EMP well (Protoss then warp somes troops and use the gap in my prod time...), but sometime, just by attacking from a different angle (not just right in the middle), the protoss player can kill my entire army, suffering not so many losses. Here the issue i see. Mech is slow, weak when out position and strong in position. But Protoss army feel as strong as an in position Mech army, but mobile and with no "position weakness". I feel like there is something wrong because of that, and it seem to me that's why Mech is not viable in TvP. | ||
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link0
United States1071 Posts
If Toss goes for Air and you don't know about it IMMEDIATELY, you lose. Vikings are NOT as good vs tempests as some believe. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
It's like terrans only use their buildings to help their army when they play bio. Mech seems like it would be stronger if you slow the game down, but most games terran seems to be building up for a little while, then pushing out to try to roll protoss quickly, and they don't slow push, they just walk across the map then siege once they get there. It's no wonder people get caught out of position with mech so much. | ||
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link0
United States1071 Posts
On October 16 2012 09:03 Whitewing wrote: Every game I see, terran is usually floating a ton of minerals, but I rarely see terran throw down planetary fortresses along their push path or to block off chokes etc. They're very mineral heavy and super powerful, especially with tanks behind them. I also rarely see terrans building turrets with their army, or putting up building walls near their tanks to stop protoss from getting close to them. It's like terrans only use their buildings to help their army when they play bio. Mech seems like it would be stronger if you slow the game down, but most games terran seems to be building up for a little while, then pushing out to try to roll protoss quickly, and they don't slow push, they just walk across the map then siege once they get there. It's no wonder people get caught out of position with mech so much. PFs are useless when your opponent is going mass immortals, which are the natural response to Mech. Immortals just shit all over PFs. A ghost costs as much as an immortal and can only hit 2-3 archons/immortals with an EMP. It does not contribute to the DPS outside of the EMP, so even though ghosts are essential, they still do not make Mech viable vs Protoss. | ||
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captainwaffles
United States1050 Posts
I have mixed results with any type of 2 base play, It almost always seems like a better idea to just grab a fast third and play pretty defensively. | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
It seems very very awkward but having about 4~5 medivacs really help them take the brunt of what ever the P has. | ||
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Vague
170 Posts
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captainwaffles
United States1050 Posts
On October 16 2012 09:40 YyapSsap wrote: Has anyone else tried incorporating medivacs to heal your hellbats with your mech compositions? It seems very very awkward but having about 4~5 medivacs really help them take the brunt of what ever the P has. Yes I have, It is way more useful vs zerg, since their units are weaker overall, but against a toss that has any kind of aoe the medivacs feel kind of moot, regardless I try to get at least 2 of them just because healing is nice without having scvs pulled. I kinda wish they would remove the bio status from the hellbat though, would make them fair much better against archons... | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
On October 16 2012 09:44 captainwaffles wrote: Yes I have, It is way more useful vs zerg, since their units are weaker overall, but against a toss that has any kind of aoe the medivacs feel kind of moot, regardless I try to get at least 2 of them just because healing is nice without having scvs pulled. I kinda wish they would remove the bio status from the hellbat though, would make them fair much better against archons... Agreed. Unless it could be stimmed? that would be pretty strange. To be honest, everytime I see TvP mech the P has like far too many hard counters to any mech composition. It feels like the T is severely handicapping themselves just to force this play style. Like pure zealot/archon + immortals. It could be zealot/tempests/immortals. Could be colossus/immortals/zealots. Sprinkle a few HTs also.. The compositions above have no weaknesses in positioning outside engaging in small chokes, where the deathball isn't that slow either. Think the only way mech would become viable is changes made in the core units, e.g. immortals and tanks. Until then, like many have already felt it just evaporate stuff fast enough on ground unlike TvT/TvZ. | ||
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captainwaffles
United States1050 Posts
On October 16 2012 09:52 YyapSsap wrote: Agreed. Unless it could be stimmed? that would be pretty strange. To be honest, everytime I see TvP mech the P has like far too many hard counters to any mech composition. It feels like the T is severely handicapping themselves just to force this play style. Like pure zealot/archon + immortals. It could be zealot/tempests/immortals. Could be colossus/immortals/zealots. Sprinkle a few HTs also.. The compositions above have no weaknesses in positioning outside engaging in small chokes, where the deathball isn't that slow either. Think the only way mech would become viable is changes made in the core units, e.g. immortals and tanks. Until then, like many have already felt it just evaporate stuff fast enough on ground unlike TvT/TvZ. Hmm well tbh if toss is committing to a ground army for the whole game, you should not lost as terran as long as you have ghosts. Ghosts are still core to lategame TvP mech or bio, ofc with mech you need less because the burst damage is far superior. I think the hardest thing about Mech V P is when they do lots of counter attacks and mass expand and then go into air after they have forced you to commit to a heavy ground army . | ||
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Warpath
Canada1242 Posts
On October 15 2012 16:50 SuperYo1000 wrote: I dont get this mentallty.....protoss HAS to have have at least 2 tech trees to deal with (true mech) but you complain that you have to have something else in it? so what if you have to put a few ghost in there....land a good emp and all the immortals die to straight up tank fire. have vikings with your mech and concentrate on sniping the observers....mech can deal with robo easily without the observers. If protoss is stupid enough to be baited into your juicy tank line without observers widow mine melts them just cuz you cant have all factory units doesnt mean factory units arent viable 2/3 of your tech trees share the same upgrade set. We dont want to have to upgrade to 3-3 twice. Going 3-3 marines and 3-0 vehicle in WoL tvp is demanding enough | ||
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happyness
United States2400 Posts
On October 14 2012 16:25 TheLunatic wrote: Energy bars kill mech Pretty much this. Just give thors strike cannon as a timed ability. It's really unfortunate that blizzard decided to nerf that when the change was initially made. Otherwise, I would say the new units in WoL support mech. Hellbats(lol) can now clean up chargelots and act as a buffer for tanks. The mines can protect against harassment and be good defense vs 2 base all ins and give mech even more space control. | ||
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targ
Malaysia445 Posts
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