|
On December 26 2012 19:23 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 17:33 Unshapely wrote:On December 26 2012 17:17 larse wrote:
Maybe they should change the immortal shield from taking only 10 damage into "30% damage reduction", so that smaller damage to immortal will change very little, but large damage to immortal will still be powerful. Marine still does 5 damage (6 -(6 x 30%) = 5 (rounded), but tank does 35 damage (50-(50 x 30%) = 35). Excellent suggestion. I was also thinking about something similar. 30% damage reduction on shields is exactly the same as just giving the shields more HP.
No.
It will rather be a mitigation of shields. The current immortal is needlessly strong against stronger units; so much that it is considered to be sheer stupidity to make mechanised/armoured units when immortals are on the field. With the advent of the improved Voidray, mechanised units are being punished even more.
The marine isn't affected too much by this change and the gameplay will make a lot more sense if Tier 2 units were being countered by a variety of other Tier 2 units. What you say in your post seems to imply that Protoss will begin making 250/100 immortals to counter marines and maruaders with stim packs along with the upgraded medivacs. The mere thought of it is preposterous.
The change Mr. Larse proposed should be implemented.
|
On December 27 2012 05:57 Unshapely wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 19:23 Sissors wrote:On December 26 2012 17:33 Unshapely wrote:On December 26 2012 17:17 larse wrote:
Maybe they should change the immortal shield from taking only 10 damage into "30% damage reduction", so that smaller damage to immortal will change very little, but large damage to immortal will still be powerful. Marine still does 5 damage (6 -(6 x 30%) = 5 (rounded), but tank does 35 damage (50-(50 x 30%) = 35). Excellent suggestion. I was also thinking about something similar. 30% damage reduction on shields is exactly the same as just giving the shields more HP. No. Protoss doesn't mass immortals against marines and marauders + stim pack. The mere thought of it is preposterous. It will rather be a mitigation of shields. The current immortal is needlessly strong against stronger units; so much that it is considered to be sheer stupidity to make mechanised/armoured units when immortals are on the field. With the advent of the improved Voidray, mechanised units are being punished even more. The marine isn't affected too much by this change and the gameplay will make a lot more sense if Tier 2 units were being countered by a variety of other Tier 2 units. The change Mr. Larse proposed should be implemented.
No. There are no squirrels in SC2.
My response made just as much sense as yours. You completely ignored what I wrote, or did you quote the wrong person? Aditionally just to say it again since some day people should notice it: The marines is directly affected by that change. It does 30% less damage, that people here are apparently fairly bad at rounding numbers, and not knowing SC2 uses floats for damage, doesnt change it. Even if it would change it, game mechanics based on rounding errors are a horrible idea.
If you think hardened shield should go, you can debate that, but okay you think that, fine for me. But then dont add a bad change like giving it 30% damage resistance when that is the same as just giving it 150 shield HP without needless complications. (The only difference is shield regen time).
Edit: Especially with your edit I really hope you were quoting the wrong person since it really makes no sense whatsoever what you write in response to my post.
|
On December 25 2012 10:50 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 08:55 nomyx wrote:
Blizzard can toy with hellbat range, hellbat being healed by medivac, thor, ect but at the end of the day if "mech" is going to be viable it's going to be factory a-move mech (hellbat, thor, widow mine) and not true mech involving tanks. The only way to fix this would be to buff the tank well alteast hellbat, thor, widowmine is better than warhound lol only slightly though. Anyways, it sad they dont want to make mech work. I always thought this was the most interesting thing about BW since mech was considered the "4th" race. It was a race within a race. Opening mech or bio make the opposing opponent play completely different. Evidence of this can be seen in TvZ and TvP. Instead in BW protoss dont even have to change up their play style too much. Instead they are delighted that they are going this cause it gives them so much more option at publically humiliating you. I think the only thing that mech is good for in TvP is to show how much you out class him and how bad he is for losing to you lol.
The problem though with "mech" in TvP is it's just beefy not, no positional play with tanks because tanks are shit in HotS
|
Sigh.
On December 27 2012 06:02 Sissors wrote:
The marines is directly affected by that change
My quote is correct. Hardened shields only activate against units that deal more than 10 damage. If hardened shields did 35% damage reduction instead of taking just 10 damage, then immortals wouldn't crush mechanised/armoured units too hard.
What you say makes no sense to me, because marines don't activate hardened shields.
Corrigendum I: Corrected your name from Scissors to Sissors. This quoting system is rather cumbersome to use. Also, the dictionary used by Google Chromium should be revised, as it is falsely highlighting the word corrigendum as incorrect.
|
Why do you just keep ignoring what I say, and instead claim all stuff like that I imply toss would mass immortals against MM.
Let me tell it again, maybe third time is a charm...
35% damage reduction is EXACTLY the same as giving the immortal 154 shields (with a 35% boost to shield recharge rate if you really want to worry about that). There is no difference whatsoever, only you want to introduce a special game mechanic while just boosting its shields with 50HP would accomplish exactly the same.
Marines dont activate hardened shield now, but they would be affected by your 35% damage reduction, making them significantly worse against immortals. Or is this 35% only for damages above 10? Because no one said that anywhere, it was just presented as a flat out 35% damage reduction. If it is only above 10 damage it is hilariously little. That hardened shield would still let some of the damage above 10 through, fine. But that should be alot less than 65%.
|
On December 27 2012 07:15 Sissors wrote:
Why do you just keep ignoring what I say, and instead claim all stuff like that I imply toss would mass immortals against MM.
Let me tell it again, maybe third time is a charm...
35% damage reduction is EXACTLY the same as giving the immortal 154 shields (with a 35% boost to shield recharge rate if you really want to worry about that). There is no difference whatsoever, only you want to introduce a special game mechanic while just boosting its shields with 50HP would accomplish exactly the same.
Marines dont activate hardened shield now, but they would be affected by your 35% damage reduction, making them significantly worse against immortals. Or is this 35% only for damages above 10? Because no one said that anywhere, it was just presented as a flat out 35% damage reduction. If it is only above 10 damage it is hilariously little. That hardened shield would still let some of the damage above 10 through, fine. But that should be alot less than 65%.
Do you play Protoss at all?
Read this please:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Immortal
Now please educate me as to what it is that I'm ignoring so much. The 35% damage reduction is only when hardened shield would activate. Currently hardened shields activate when units do more than 10 damage. Then, the damage taken is reduced to flat out 10. This means that tanks don't do more than 10 damage, but marines do the standard 6 damage and will continue do to 6 damage regardless of the changes made to immortal's hardened shields.
Am I clear?
|
On December 27 2012 07:22 Unshapely wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 07:15 Sissors wrote:
Why do you just keep ignoring what I say, and instead claim all stuff like that I imply toss would mass immortals against MM.
Let me tell it again, maybe third time is a charm...
35% damage reduction is EXACTLY the same as giving the immortal 154 shields (with a 35% boost to shield recharge rate if you really want to worry about that). There is no difference whatsoever, only you want to introduce a special game mechanic while just boosting its shields with 50HP would accomplish exactly the same.
Marines dont activate hardened shield now, but they would be affected by your 35% damage reduction, making them significantly worse against immortals. Or is this 35% only for damages above 10? Because no one said that anywhere, it was just presented as a flat out 35% damage reduction. If it is only above 10 damage it is hilariously little. That hardened shield would still let some of the damage above 10 through, fine. But that should be alot less than 65%. Do you play Protoss at all? Read this please: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/ImmortalNow please educate me as to what it is that I'm ignoring so much. The 35% damage reduction is only when hardened shield would activate. Meaning marines don't activate hardened shields.
Please educate me where it was said the 35% reduction would only be when hardened shield would activate? Sadly I cannot read minds, although I am working on it (together with telekinesis). It was never said the 35% reduction would only be for damages above 10. Since that wasnt specified I assumed it would be all damages, since only 35% reduction is hilariously bad. Also all calculated examples used the 35% (30%) damage reduction on the full incoming damage and not only on the part above 10. So maybe you are backing the wrong proposal here...
For your education, here was the original post you backed:
Maybe they should change the immortal shield from taking only 10 damage into "30% damage reduction", so that smaller damage to immortal will change very little, but large damage to immortal will still be powerful. Marine still does 5 damage (6 -(6 x 30%) = 5 (rounded), but tank does 35 damage (50-(50 x 30%) = 35).
See the calculation examples (and ignore the rounding errors), the 30% damage reduction is proposed to be across the full incoming damage.
|
My dear, you are needlessly demeaning the topic at hand. I shall deign one last time to respond.
The person did say immortal shield, and I'm certain he meant immortal hardened shield because people here are so lazy at expressing their thoughts coherently. Changing immortal shield altogether while removing hardened shield was not mentioned in the post either. Making 30% damage reduction while removing hardened shields would of course affect marines.
I implore you to stay this argument. I have no desire to condescend further.
Corrigendum II:
change the immortal shield from taking only 10 damage into "30% damage reduction"
This clearly implies that he is talking about hardened shields. My god I feel horrible for arguing with dull people.
|
How to counter mech opener: Make an oracle.
widow mine no longer 1 shot oracle. an oracle can take out 3~4 marines by itself.
|
On December 27 2012 05:48 Sissors wrote:
Finally a TvP without me dying to random attack immediatly, so tried the idea of hellbat + marines + tanks. Dont have whole BOs and stuff, just pressing random buttons until I got the combo I want.
Idea is straightforward: Hellbat/tank (/thor) loses to everything related to air, and against immortals they rely completely on ghosts doing good, which is a bit too random for me. Marine/tank is a horrible idea because zealots will cause splash damage of tanks to rip through your own marines. So lets combine them: hellbat, tank, marine, medivac, and vikings just with their normal anti-colossi role if needed. (Also forward observer, scout, anti drop, etc).
Then the plan is simple, hellbat are literally meatshield against zealots. Their only role is surviving long enough for other units to kill all zealots (and of course do nice splash damage). They are simply on a-move, so you dont have to pay attention to them, you can use that on dodging storms with marines/targeting HTs with tanks. Now since the enemy zealots are down you dont have to stutter step back with marines which exposes the tanks. So the usual tank killers, immortals, can't get to the tanks without trying to go through your marines. Archons could be more problematic, you might need ghosts, but I think you can deal with them. HTs, sentries and stalkers are food for siege tanks. And the handy part is you got a solid core of marines to deal with air shenanigans. Also for raids in mid/late game I rather got marines than hellions, although you got both available now.
Downside is obviously you got to get infrastructure and upgrades for both bio and mech. My first game where I could really try it went quite nice, so will continue with it to see if it works. Note for next time: just because you killed someones natural, third, and you send all your marines away to kill his 4th, doesnt mean he doesnt have a large carrier army. Luckily carrier armies are fairly easy to slow down late game, just make a ton of missile turrets.
Would you not stack a ton of gas with that composition? Even if you went for double armory and ebay ups, your only gas expense are tanks and there is probably a maximum number of tanks you want vs P.
In that case, would it make sense to build medivacs with your stuff? At least assuming double armory, you would get +3 armor on the medivacs rather quickly which makes the hellbat wall very sturdy.
|
Is it possible that we are looking for a fusion core upgrade that gives tanks the ability to neutralise the hardened shield effects? Having the upgrade @ fusion core makes it so it cant be rushed and thus keep the immortal viable in de midgame. Other matchups wouldnt be harmed this way, although it would be neat if the tank did more dmg to ultras 
|
If I had the power, I would punch everybody in the face that tags their suggestion with "on the fusion core!" How in the world does adding every late game upgrade to the fusion core make any sense? Should the colossus get an upgrade at the fleet beacon? Should roaches get an upgrade at a greater spire? Just because it's a structure that takes a "long time" to get doesn't make it THE prerequisite to the late game.
|
Truthfully, only build battle hellions, tanks and ghosts, and the composition really works. A lot of the time, Protoss can't engage it. And early pressure with widowmines or hellion drop or even banshee play is nice.
|
It is still not viable. I am just watching Supernova's stream and he is getting destroyed by amove chargelot-archon-immortal armies going up the ramp against sieged tanks on the high ground and protoss is still destroying his units. Tanks do nothing to protoss. If Blizzard ever wants mech to be viable as a playstyle, tanks should get a decent damage buff.
|
On December 29 2012 00:18 Qwerty85 wrote:
It is still not viable. I am just watching Supernova's stream and he is getting destroyed by amove chargelot-archon-immortal armies going up the ramp against sieged tanks on the high ground and protoss is still destroying his units. Tanks do nothing to protoss. If Blizzard ever wants mech to be viable as a playstyle, tanks should get a decent damage buff.
What was his composition?
If you say "tank/hellion", then still say your post is serious, i'm afraid i'll have to kill you. Painfully.
(just a joke, but as i said, too much people think mech is only tank/hellion, so i wanna be sure..)
|
On December 29 2012 21:30 Lyyna wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2012 00:18 Qwerty85 wrote:
It is still not viable. I am just watching Supernova's stream and he is getting destroyed by amove chargelot-archon-immortal armies going up the ramp against sieged tanks on the high ground and protoss is still destroying his units. Tanks do nothing to protoss. If Blizzard ever wants mech to be viable as a playstyle, tanks should get a decent damage buff.
What was his composition? If you say "tank/hellion", then still say your post is serious, i'm afraid i'll have to kill you. Painfully. (just a joke, but as i said, too much people think mech is only tank/hellion, so i wanna be sure..)
People want mech with tanks. Not mech with thors or whatsoever. Mech viable with TANKS inside.
|
On December 30 2012 00:38 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2012 21:30 Lyyna wrote:On December 29 2012 00:18 Qwerty85 wrote:
It is still not viable. I am just watching Supernova's stream and he is getting destroyed by amove chargelot-archon-immortal armies going up the ramp against sieged tanks on the high ground and protoss is still destroying his units. Tanks do nothing to protoss. If Blizzard ever wants mech to be viable as a playstyle, tanks should get a decent damage buff.
What was his composition? If you say "tank/hellion", then still say your post is serious, i'm afraid i'll have to kill you. Painfully. (just a joke, but as i said, too much people think mech is only tank/hellion, so i wanna be sure..) People want mech with tanks. Not mech with thors or whatsoever. Mech viable with TANKS inside.
And with a significant portion of army as tanks. None of this 5 tanks, 20 hellions, 4 thors, 10 vikings, 4 ghosts stuff. At least half tanks, preferably as many as two-thirds tanks, and with all-tank being extremely strong against an all-ground enemy (but obviously very vulnerable to an air switch).
|
On December 30 2012 00:38 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2012 21:30 Lyyna wrote:On December 29 2012 00:18 Qwerty85 wrote:
It is still not viable. I am just watching Supernova's stream and he is getting destroyed by amove chargelot-archon-immortal armies going up the ramp against sieged tanks on the high ground and protoss is still destroying his units. Tanks do nothing to protoss. If Blizzard ever wants mech to be viable as a playstyle, tanks should get a decent damage buff.
What was his composition? If you say "tank/hellion", then still say your post is serious, i'm afraid i'll have to kill you. Painfully. (just a joke, but as i said, too much people think mech is only tank/hellion, so i wanna be sure..) People want mech with tanks. Not mech with thors or whatsoever. Mech viable with TANKS inside.
I guess you didn't get my comment. Just saying that people tend to think "mech = tank/hellion" and considering that tank hellion isnt viable..
|
On December 28 2012 09:34 RodrigoX wrote:
Truthfully, only build battle hellions, tanks and ghosts, and the composition really works. A lot of the time, Protoss can't engage it. And early pressure with widowmines or hellion drop or even banshee play is nice.
that works great against an immortal/zealot/archon comp, but what if toss goes air.
tempests and carriers DESTROY widow mines and thors, and focusing on ghosts mean you will be really starved for gas for vikings.
|
On December 28 2012 09:34 RodrigoX wrote:
Truthfully, only build battle hellions, tanks and ghosts, and the composition really works. A lot of the time, Protoss can't engage it. And early pressure with widowmines or hellion drop or even banshee play is nice.
Don't Protoss players go Tempest now? Even Carriers now that they're fixed. Once that happens vikings are forced and then you lose, and even if Protoss doesn't go air the tank generally still isn't a threat enough to the Protoss forces. Emp makes it so that when Protoss attacks your tank line with immortals it becomes "I might win this engagement if I've been outplaying him" as opposed to the usual "even if I outmacro him his immortals + army will still wipe my tank line with minimal losses".
No mech composition "works" until Blizzard buffs the tank and maybe improves Thor High Impact mode.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
