On October 15 2012 15:05 MasterCynical wrote: The situation seems better than it actually seems.
This is probably one of the most BW like games ive seen, just imagine it without the toss floating so much
more tuning and balancing could make mech alot more viable. Morrow has also had some decent games on his stream.
That game is pretty awesome and gets me excited for HotS. And even though the terran loses due to a bad engagement at the end, it was still close throughout the whole game.
I hope mech is viable in HotS, because I am so tired of these bio-ball vs colossus-ball TvP's
On October 16 2012 11:00 targ wrote: I don't have a beta key, but I'm curious as to what would the results be if you got a few vikings and kept scanning to kill obs so the Toss couldn't take down your widow mines. Might work out a bit like a lurker line.
In the game posted above (avilo vs someone) protoss a-moved without obs 2 times against ~10 mines + sieged up tanks with archon-immortal and still crushed it.
Seems to me only way to win with mech is EMP everything and have your opponent be stupid enough to still push against sieged tanks, instead of retreating and regenerating shields.
On October 15 2012 15:05 MasterCynical wrote: The situation seems better than it actually seems.
This is probably one of the most BW like games ive seen, just imagine it without the toss floating so much http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_raBwbwRQCs&feature=g-u-u more tuning and balancing could make mech alot more viable. Morrow has also had some decent games on his stream.
That game is pretty awesome and gets me excited for HotS. And even though the terran loses due to a bad engagement at the end, it was still close throughout the whole game.
I hope mech is viable in HotS, because I am so tired of these bio-ball vs colossus-ball TvP's
It wasn't close at all. Avilo's ghost-mech army got stomped hard by what was basically 1A with archons/immortals.
Mines just suck ass past early game because they cost so much supply.
i watched morrow crush a protoss last night with mech, but it was odd watching it. He literally just had siege tanks and hellbats and 3 ghosts.
That's not a composition, that's macro. As Day9 would put it, it's a bigger rock.
It's like watching someone go zealot, archon, HT with storm and crush face until they hit a player who knows what to do then saying that templar tech is not viable. Just hellbat, siege tank and 3 ghosts shouldn't be viable vs equally skilled opponents. You don't get to cry 'mech isn't viable' when you make 2 units with a tiny smattering of a 3rd.
A large part of SC2 is about balancing compositions. How many colossus vs how many vikings etc. Gone are the days of 'how many colossus? as many as you can make'. Meching players should be moving between banshee and tank counts, because stalkers suck and immortals can't shoot up. The fact that 'mech' means 'only tanks' means that yes, protoss can blindly mass a hard coutner to your composition and win every time. Just like they can vs 'only roach' or 'only marauders'. Stop being so narrow minded in your definition of mech and how it should be used.
watched the VOD. The mines had never done anything significant besides some defending in the early game. and hell the match is not even at all. protoss manage to cause good damage early game and won every single engagement throughout mid to late game.
i hope blizzard find a way so terran players can mech without the ghost TvP, after the tempest patch late game hots mech is just as hard as WoL is currently.
Widow mines - They need a way for it to scale with the game. With the new patch its fine early but loses effectiveness as the game progresses.
Hellbats - When blizzard made them bio, they in effect made them too weak vs Archons. They do their job vs chargelots but get ripped apart by the Archon secondary.
Banshees - These units need to be included when talking about a mech build. Not all units in a mech composition need to come from a factory as per the next point.
Ghosts - Like it or not, you will need these bad boys as the counter to mech is Immortals and Archons. Both of these units rely heavily on their shields. Take these away and both of these units will melt under a volley of tank fire.
On October 15 2012 15:05 MasterCynical wrote: The situation seems better than it actually seems.
This is probably one of the most BW like games ive seen, just imagine it without the toss floating so much http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_raBwbwRQCs&feature=g-u-u more tuning and balancing could make mech alot more viable. Morrow has also had some decent games on his stream.
That game is pretty awesome and gets me excited for HotS. And even though the terran loses due to a bad engagement at the end, it was still close throughout the whole game.
I hope mech is viable in HotS, because I am so tired of these bio-ball vs colossus-ball TvP's
It wasn't close at all. Avilo's ghost-mech army got stomped hard by what was basically 1A with archons/immortals.
Mines just suck ass past early game because they cost so much supply.
I was saying it was even throughout most of the game. The first time they were both maxed they traded pretty evenly, the second time avilo got caught in a terrible position and was stomped. He only had 6 ghosts though, and if he had a few more ghosts and hellions instead of tanks and had good position it would have looked much different.
On October 16 2012 11:57 EleanorRIgby wrote: i hope blizzard find a way so terran players can mech without the ghost TvP, after the tempest patch late game hots mech is just as hard as WoL is currently.
then they must find a way in which the ghost cannot help mech.
On October 16 2012 11:49 gengka wrote: watched the VOD. The mines had never done anything significant besides some defending in the early game. and hell the match is not even at all. protoss manage to cause good damage early game and won every single engagement throughout mid to late game.
You should watch more closely. The mines did indeed play a part at the beginning of each engagement.
The point of the VOD was not saying mech is anymore good vs immortals, but that the widow mines and battle hellions are slowly turning SC2 mech into a somewhat decent version of BW mech.
On October 16 2012 11:57 EleanorRIgby wrote: i hope blizzard find a way so terran players can mech without the ghost TvP, after the tempest patch late game hots mech is just as hard as WoL is currently.
Absolutely agree to this. Even if I am not a terran player, today I watched avilo play a protoss player on stream and i found that it is definitely hard for terran to deal with sky toss with mech atm. Hard to get both air upgrades and ground upgrades. Even terran killed off that maxed tempest archon carrier ball with tanks and vikings, they can just win with immortals and gateway units after that if protoss had a big bank behind that. There is no way to break that kind of siege from protoss with terran mech as far as i am seeing.
If that much mech can't take a straight up fight against P ground reliably, then what happens when you start mixing in stuff like Colo, Tempest, Carrier?
Not viable right now. Unless mech can outperform P ground, then there's no way it can be viable because the strength will get exponentially diluted by needing to deal with P air.
On October 15 2012 16:13 papaz wrote: Watching MorroW/Dragon stream this is basically how mech goes.
1. P sees the factories, puts down a stargate and stops massing those zealots (hellions/hellbats get easily picked off by immortal/stalkers). 2. Whatever composition P chooses (stargate units, collosi/archons) just mass immortals with it.
Now whatever tech P choose there are those immortals that T has to deal with. Sometimes I see some ghosts, sometimes marines going supporting the mech army. Either way only mech army is too difficult since immortals counter basically everything in mech.
Hence mech alone doesn't seem viable at the very typ without some bio support. Maybe this is working is intended, either way it's sad that is the way mech is. Fortunately there are many more patches to come.
As is mech TvP will simply never be viable without ghosts. The problem is that it doesn't look viable even with them.
I dont get this mentallty.....protoss HAS to have have at least 2 tech trees to deal with (true mech) but you complain that you have to have something else in it?
so what if you have to put a few ghost in there....land a good emp and all the immortals die to straight up tank fire.
have vikings with your mech and concentrate on sniping the observers....mech can deal with robo easily without the observers. If protoss is stupid enough to be baited into your juicy tank line without observers widow mine melts them
just cuz you cant have all factory units doesnt mean factory units arent viable
The difference is that protoss only need to use one set up upgrades. To match them, terran need mech upgrades, air upgrades, and some bio upgrades.
On October 16 2012 15:52 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: Check MorroWs stream and you see how good mech is vsP.
I think Morrow is now 0-7 versus protoss in HotS tournaments. And that's despite the fact he spent weeks trying to make it work while I suspect some of his opponents barely played the beta. It's nice to see it works when a GM beats up a diamond player but we are talking pro-level viability here.
On October 16 2012 11:22 Kharnage wrote: i watched morrow crush a protoss last night with mech, but it was odd watching it. He literally just had siege tanks and hellbats and 3 ghosts.
That's not a composition, that's macro. As Day9 would put it, it's a bigger rock.
It's like watching someone go zealot, archon, HT with storm and crush face until they hit a player who knows what to do then saying that templar tech is not viable. Just hellbat, siege tank and 3 ghosts shouldn't be viable vs equally skilled opponents. You don't get to cry 'mech isn't viable' when you make 2 units with a tiny smattering of a 3rd.
A large part of SC2 is about balancing compositions. How many colossus vs how many vikings etc. Gone are the days of 'how many colossus? as many as you can make'. Meching players should be moving between banshee and tank counts, because stalkers suck and immortals can't shoot up. The fact that 'mech' means 'only tanks' means that yes, protoss can blindly mass a hard coutner to your composition and win every time. Just like they can vs 'only roach' or 'only marauders'. Stop being so narrow minded in your definition of mech and how it should be used.
Stop being ignorant. Mech doesn't mean a composition made from the factory or "mechanical" units. Its about playing a positional playstyle which happens to center around the "siege tank" (which is produced at the factory) that happens to be all about positioning. BW gave you enough tools to play this playstyle against a whole heap of compositions. Right now, it just doesn't work since the P can choose whatever he likes on top of mass immortals and just shit all over the T mech army.
Did anyone tried skyterran and incorporating mines for defence and hellion for harras/defence ? Much more banshee play theoretically could work. Mines would help in defence and sniping obs even in fight, also would help clocked banshee for more freedom. Mines also could allow to transition into BC late game if it would come to macro game. I also think battle helions(hellbats :S) would help with mass zelots that were just running by when going BC and sniping warp prism. Ghost are still needed but all the other buildings are in the right tech path. Some factories with reactors producing helions and mines and starports with techlab for banshe/raven and later BC.
On October 16 2012 18:23 blublub wrote: Did anyone tried skyterran and incorporating mines for defence and hellion for harras/defence ? Much more banshee play theoretically could work. Mines would help in defence and sniping obs even in fight, also would help clocked banshee for more freedom. Mines also could allow to transition into BC late game if it would come to macro game. I also think battle helions(hellbats :S) would help with mass zelots that were just running by when going BC and sniping warp prism. Ghost are still needed but all the other buildings are in the right tech path. Some factories with reactors producing helions and mines and starports with techlab for banshe/raven and later BC.
The trouble with sky terran is it may not die to immortals but templar/archon RIPS through skyterran due to the energy and the fragile units it has.
EPT
