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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
" You guys do forget the meta game. We have no control over it directly. As the developers we do make all the units and all the rules, so we have some control, but we cannot MAKE anybody do anything. We do our best to make sure that lots of play styles are viable. We are working now towards making PvT mech a more viable strategy. " They are trying. | ||
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yolteotl
France76 Posts
Ht will continue to be good against bio & ghost, but a little less (no feedback on medivacs). | ||
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BoggieMan
520 Posts
they can't buff mech because tvz would be completely broken then. and tvt would become mech vs mech all day long. they need to go another way around, like they tried to with the warhound. | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
Noooo  And I just made a blog post about how seeing him meching in TvP was inspiring. | ||
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link0
United States1071 Posts
On October 26 2012 03:03 BoggieMan wrote: They can't nerf the immortal cause that would completely destroy pvz. they can't buff mech because tvz would be completely broken then. and tvt would become mech vs mech all day long. they need to go another way around, like they tried to with the warhound. They CAN nerf immortals by doing this: If they limit the Hardened Shield's Max damage reduction per attack to something like 10 (so that a 25 damage attack would deal 15 damage instead of the current 10), it would have no effect in PvZ since Roaches have 16 damage or 22 full upgraded. The only Zerg unit affected is Ultralisks, which Immortals would still hard counter. | ||
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Tsuki.eu
Portugal1049 Posts
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happyness
United States2400 Posts
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ZenZombie
United States58 Posts
On October 16 2012 11:00 targ wrote: I don't have a beta key, but I'm curious as to what would the results be if you got a few vikings and kept scanning to kill obs so the Toss couldn't take down your widow mines. Might work out a bit like a lurker line. Forcing scans = getting terran to use what could be used for mules a lot = harder to remax/smaller army for terran. A few vikings aren't a bad idea though, hitting warp prisms and random observers would help. It almost requires a raven too to have roving detection. As a zerg player, having a overseer is something I just do frequently. I think a lot of terran's need to learn to just force a raven into the composition. For those who did play brood war, wasn't the science vessel a huge part of mech before? It seems to me like adding in the raven should just be common practice. | ||
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Ramone
Canada85 Posts
Tech switches are a part of each race, limiting yourself to just one part of your race can is definitely going to hurt your win rate. All that being said, when I play Terran, I hate how there are so many upgrades to keep on top of in order to benefit from tech switches. You feel pigeon holed into one tech choice that way. I'd like to see it changed to how protoss is, ground and air. Maybe make the slightly more expensive to compensate? Cheers, Ramone | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Mech is still rediculously hard compared to bio in the matchup for all the reasons morrow stated. It's basically the same as saying as it;s not viable but someone will always claim "but it's working fine for me" then. Mech still doesn't convincingly beat protoss straight up (which should be it's strenght) and has tremendous problems with harassment (blink stalkers, warp prisms). Finally air transitions are also just tough to deal with and carriers are actually quite damn good against mech. Personally I don't get why dustin browder is trying to make mech work so much in this matchup, there are just so many weaknesses in mech vs protoss that there really is no point to trying to fix it. Sure mech vs P was cool in BW but at the same time bio vs P in BW was nonexistant, not every matchup needs both mech and bio to work really.. Besides buffing mech more will only make it a must even more in TvT and TvZ. Just shift your attention blizzard and make air play more viable in TvP!! Battlecruisers just need a slight nudge to become viable in that matchup and bio => mech could provide cool transitions. For example buff yamato a little bit so you can easier cast it before getting feedbacked or work in that temporary speed boost to the BCs. I already believe their damage vs ground is buffed compared to WoL so they might actually work now. With the tempest there could even be an interesting interplay where tempest can poke at battlecruisers but battlecruisers would be faster and could actually chase them and yamato them in one shot etc. Many tools are already available to make bio -> air or camping with some mech -> air interesting options for TvP already but they just need a slight nudge. It completely sidesteps the problem of trying to make mech viable plus it makes the matchups more unique and fun. TvP would be bio and/or air mostly, TvZ bio and/or mech probably and TvT mech and/or air. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
Siege Tanks now do +30% damage vs shields. This would make the Tank substantially better vs all Toss units except Immortals and Air Units, but it would have zero effect on other matchups. I think its worth a try. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
Bam, mech becomes better in TvP (and based around the tank, which is great, it shouldn't be based around anything else), and it would have no impact at all on TvT or TvZ. Requiring the armory would also make it a less viable upgrade to nab in time for the 1/1/1 all-in. Call it Phosphorous Shells or something terran flavored. | ||
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Laurens
Belgium4548 Posts
On October 26 2012 07:05 Whitewing wrote: Solution: give tanks an upgrade that requires armory that gives tanks bonus damage vs. shields. Bam, mech becomes better in TvP (and based around the tank, which is great, it shouldn't be based around anything else), and it would have no impact at all on TvT or TvZ. Requiring the armory would also make it a less viable upgrade to nab in time for the 1/1/1 all-in. I don't think you understand the problem with TvP mech if this is your proposed solution. | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On October 26 2012 06:00 ZenZombie wrote: Forcing scans = getting terran to use what could be used for mules a lot = harder to remax/smaller army for terran. A few vikings aren't a bad idea though, hitting warp prisms and random observers would help. It almost requires a raven too to have roving detection. As a zerg player, having a overseer is something I just do frequently. I think a lot of terran's need to learn to just force a raven into the composition. For those who did play brood war, wasn't the science vessel a huge part of mech before? It seems to me like adding in the raven should just be common practice. As a terran it's almost always worthwhile to scan and kill obs. You deny information, you make the toss waste gas and robotics time, and you limit protoss detection, which, frankly, scares the pants out of protoss players. | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
On October 26 2012 07:09 Laurens wrote: I don't think you understand the problem with TvP mech if this is your proposed solution. But your forgetting that it would potentially require several solutions to fix this single problem. The one he suggested is one of those solutions in bringing viability to mech in TvP without affecting the other matchups. | ||
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happyness
United States2400 Posts
On October 26 2012 06:28 Ramone wrote: I always find it a bit strange how people complain about Mech PvT being unviable... the focus should be on making PvT in general viable, not just one tech tree viable. I don't know what this means. PvT in general viable? There are strategies that are viable in PvT already. The reason I would like to see mech viable is because it would make for a much more interesting match-up than the current colossus ball vs. bio ball. Mech is all about taking positional advantages, while the current state of PvT is who can win in a maxed army fight. | ||
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kidcrash
United States620 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On October 26 2012 07:09 Laurens wrote: I don't think you understand the problem with TvP mech if this is your proposed solution. The problem is that A: the mech army is significantly less mobile than the protoss force (Which is how it is supposed to work), and B: it is not sufficiently more powerful than the protoss army that in a straight engagement with equal micro and positioning, that the terran army wins handidly enough to push through and kill with protoss warp ins. A is supposed to be the case, you're supposed to have a mobility disadvantage, and if you didn't, it would be lame as all hell. B can be fixed by buffing the power of the mech army, and this solution does that without impacting TvT or TvZ where mech is a fairly popular strategy already. By buffing the tank in this way, you add to the composite power of the terran mech army without significantly increasing it's strength in small numbers. The mech army is meant to be powerful as a cohesive whole. By adding power to the tank in particular, you encourage the use of tank lines and positional play, the hallmarks of mech. Mech in TvP would be best improved by a siege tank buff, and you need to do it in a way that does not buff them in TvT or TvZ. That said: I'm not convinced mech is quite as weak against protoss harass as people seem to think, you can zone blink stalkers pretty well with defensive structures and well placed tanks, and with building upgrades. I do agree that it doesn't beat the protoss army head to head as well as it should in max army situations. Mech floats a lot of minerals quite naturally, most players dump this into extra orbital commands (which frankly should only be used for scans since you don't need more mules at that point) or hellions which are frequently wasted on runbys. Consider instead researching things like building armor and hi sec auto tracking and making extensive use of missile turrets and planetary fortresses. | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
On October 26 2012 07:54 Whitewing wrote: The problem is that A: the mech army is significantly less mobile than the protoss force (Which is how it is supposed to work), and B: it is not sufficiently more powerful than the protoss army that in a straight engagement with equal micro and positioning, that the terran army wins handidly enough to push through and kill with protoss warp ins. A is supposed to be the case, you're supposed to have a mobility disadvantage, and if you didn't, it would be lame as all hell. B can be fixed by buffing the power of the mech army, and this solution does that without impacting TvT or TvZ where mech is a fairly popular strategy already. By buffing the tank in this way, you add to the composite power of the terran mech army without significantly increasing it's strength in small numbers. The mech army is meant to be powerful as a cohesive whole. By adding power to the tank in particular, you encourage the use of tank lines and positional play, the hallmarks of mech. Mech in TvP would be best improved by a siege tank buff, and you need to do it in a way that does not buff them in TvT or TvZ. That said: I'm not convinced mech is quite as weak against protoss harass as people seem to think, you can zone blink stalkers pretty well with defensive structures and well placed tanks, and with building upgrades. I do agree that it doesn't beat the protoss army head to head as well as it should in max army situations. Mech floats a lot of minerals quite naturally, most players dump this into extra orbital commands (which frankly should only be used for scans since you don't need more mules at that point) or hellions which are frequently wasted on runbys. Consider instead researching things like building armor and hi sec auto tracking and making extensive use of missile turrets and planetary fortresses. At the current state of mech TvP, players could potentially set up defensive PFs and turret rings with the upgrades with a few select tanks to zone out some areas. BUT your forgetting that this cost a ton of resources and is a scenario in the late late game. Tanks take 3 supply meaning your main force is weakened (same as widow mines) due to these threats and it doesn't quite mean that you will zone out all the areas either unless you play extremely turtley (Like Lynna's style which results in 50+ min games). All in a while the P mass expands everywhere since you can't actually go kill him hence why its sometimes awkward playing mech in SC2 because there simply are no "timings" (maybe 1 or 2?) like we see with bio. Plus I think mech players tend to stop hellion production later into the mid game which imo is the reason why they start to float minerals + forget that hellions are very very important or else the tanks will have literally no buffer or means of getting rid of the zealots. A certain ratio between the two (hellions:tanks) have to kept from my experience as long as your facing a ground oriented P force. Because bio can shut down P harasses easily due to their mobility, mech on the other hand needs a cheaper alternative of shutting those down without having to invest in so much structure/upgrades and/or spreading your forces everywhere. In BW, it was the mininukes, a few select tanks and turrets with sometimes walls to stop incoming P attacks. I just feel as if in SC2 PFs just dont cut it. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On October 26 2012 07:54 Whitewing wrote: The problem is that A: the mech army is significantly less mobile than the protoss force (Which is how it is supposed to work), and B: it is not sufficiently more powerful than the protoss army that in a straight engagement with equal micro and positioning, that the terran army wins handidly enough to push through and kill with protoss warp ins. A is supposed to be the case, you're supposed to have a mobility disadvantage, and if you didn't, it would be lame as all hell. B can be fixed by buffing the power of the mech army, and this solution does that without impacting TvT or TvZ where mech is a fairly popular strategy already. By buffing the tank in this way, you add to the composite power of the terran mech army without significantly increasing it's strength in small numbers. The mech army is meant to be powerful as a cohesive whole. By adding power to the tank in particular, you encourage the use of tank lines and positional play, the hallmarks of mech. Mech in TvP would be best improved by a siege tank buff, and you need to do it in a way that does not buff them in TvT or TvZ. That said: I'm not convinced mech is quite as weak against protoss harass as people seem to think, you can zone blink stalkers pretty well with defensive structures and well placed tanks, and with building upgrades. I do agree that it doesn't beat the protoss army head to head as well as it should in max army situations. Mech floats a lot of minerals quite naturally, most players dump this into extra orbital commands (which frankly should only be used for scans since you don't need more mules at that point) or hellions which are frequently wasted on runbys. Consider instead researching things like building armor and hi sec auto tracking and making extensive use of missile turrets and planetary fortresses. There is also the problem of air. Carriers are actually quite good against mech as they don't trade too badly with vikings, especially if protoss is one upgrade ahead. Considering protoss can often just plain outmacro a meching terran a carrier switch is one of the better ways to deal with mech. So what if they go viking and beat your carriers slightly, you've reduced the ground armies and warped in zealot/stalker beats the remade mech quite easily if the numbers are low. | ||
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