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On October 17 2012 06:42 Ry2D2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 16:05 MockHamill wrote:
My experience so far in beta is that mech works excellent in TvT and TvZ but not in TvP.
Widow mines do very little against Protoss since they can kill all the mines before getting into range. Hellbats protect the Tanks against Zealots much better then hellions do, but you still lose to mass Immortals.
Ghosts works but it is hard to get enough resources for both Mech, Ghosts and upgrades.
Is anyone successful with mech in TvP given equally skilled opponents? If so please describe in detail how you play the matchup. Let's be honest, no army ever wins by having only one composition unless it's something cheesy. You'd think terrans wouldn't mind adding some marines to their mech comps to counter immortals but they don't. When terran mech they go full mech even late game, I would recommend a little more diversity in mech armies since mass immortal literally will own any factory-based unit composition.
You're totally right, i don't understand why many people (not referring to MockHamill)keep thinking that mech means pure mech. They do realize that bio uses medivacs and tanks, both which are not bio units right? no pure composition works in SC2, or at least it becomes increasingly difficult as the game gets longer and/or armies get larger
(TvZ: Marines -> Marine Marauder -> Marine Marauder Medivac -> MMMT -> MMMTV -> etc.)
Anyways there's different styles of mech, i find hellion heavy to be the best. Banshee/Thor works but i feel you give too much map control to your opponent and you can't be aggressive/mobile enough to punish things. For 3 base you can get Hellion Tank Ghost Viking or Thor Hellion Banshee with maybe some tanks. Both work but I like the first more.
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On October 14 2012 16:05 MockHamill wrote:
My experience so far in beta is that mech works excellent in TvT and TvZ but not in TvP.
Widow mines do very little against Protoss since they can kill all the mines before getting into range. Hellbats protect the Tanks against Zealots much better then hellions do, but you still lose to mass Immortals.
Ghosts works but it is hard to get enough resources for both Mech, Ghosts and upgrades.
Is anyone successful with mech in TvP given equally skilled opponents? If so please describe in detail how you play the matchup.
Are you bronze or what ?
Avilo and morrow mech and they are in the top 10 GM.
I mech in every TvP and its so easy now with the battlehellion.
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I don't like that a protoss has an all ground composition that can ball up and a-move to break a massed siege tank position. Isn't the point of the siege tank to trade mobility for overwhelming positional strength? Seems counter intuitive that the winning strategy to beat a tank heavy composition would be a deathball ground army composition. How about requiring air play or exploiting mobility?
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On October 17 2012 06:08 SuperYo1000 wrote:
you do realize that thor has the highest dps of any unit in the game right?
I just need that crazy machine gun unit on the ground that tears up stray zeals and low HP immortals and other light to heavy units. Vikings cannot currently provide that. Only marines can while being cost effective. Give mines a missile cool down for AA damage (even if you need an upgrade for extra range or something) and give them a more efficient ground weapon. That way terran can control the map and get the mobility he needs for mech. I just think a more damaging auto turrent would suffice however. I do like the concept of missles that hit the air, but it overlaps with turrents and you don't want something that completely substitutes turrents.
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To all the discussion regarding that Husky video with avilo and Wilko... Wilko simply outplayed avilo that game, he had a better economy and kept him on the backfoot with the warp prisms while he got the composition he needed to fight the mech army.
Not to mention the sick flanks, that game is not at all example worthy of mech not being viable TvP, put it too rest.
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I think that mech can benefit from another buffer unit that attack fast to deplete immortal shields.
Maybe Blizzard should try:
1) Make viking attack 2x7 instead of 12.
2) Give assault mode viking +1 armor
3) Make assault mode viking use ground mech upgrades instead of air.
4) Make it possible to produce assault mode viking from tech lab factory.
EDIT: Well hey, why not:
Assault mode vikings are now biological and can be healed.
Archons splash sucks against vikings anyway.
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On October 14 2012 21:39 Aquila- wrote:
As soon as protoss sees mech, he can get a stargate, tempests and on the ground a few chargelots and immortals and later templer that can easily storm the vikings that try to kill tempests. Mines can easily be picked off. In order to be able to go mech you have to make so many units that are not mech, means as soon as you are going mech you already have to switch to something different like vikings or ghosts. Also with the increased mobility of protoss with the core and recall etc mech tvp is never going to work with the current stats.
You realize you're asking Protoss to go stargate, twilight council, and robo to counter factory right?
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On October 17 2012 08:43 meltingmykohchoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 21:39 Aquila- wrote:
As soon as protoss sees mech, he can get a stargate, tempests and on the ground a few chargelots and immortals and later templer that can easily storm the vikings that try to kill tempests. Mines can easily be picked off. In order to be able to go mech you have to make so many units that are not mech, means as soon as you are going mech you already have to switch to something different like vikings or ghosts. Also with the increased mobility of protoss with the core and recall etc mech tvp is never going to work with the current stats. You realize you're asking Protoss to go stargate, twilight council, and robo to counter factory right?
it's because protoss players loves to put different shit in the same ball.
here is how a protoss army looks:
+ Show Spoiler +
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On October 17 2012 08:24 RavenLoud wrote:
I think that mech can benefit from another buffer unit that attack fast to deplete immortal shields.
Maybe Blizzard should try:
1) Make viking attack 2x7 instead of 12.
2) Give assault mode viking +1 armor
3) Make assault mode viking use ground mech upgrades instead of air.
4) Make it possible to produce assault mode viking from tech lab factory.
EDIT: Well hey, why not:
Assault mode vikings are now biological and can be healed.
Archons splash sucks against vikings anyway.
1 + 2 are good but it would need something like 8x2 or it would be even worse vs zealots.
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Yeah why not do for the Viking what they did with the battle helion. Don't let Vikings land until you get some upgrade. And have them produced from the factory after you research it. That way it is both air an mech unit and a meat shield. What say you Blizzard?
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On October 17 2012 09:44 Blamajama wrote:
Yeah why not do for the Viking what they did with the battle helion. Don't let Vikings land until you get some upgrade. And have them produced from the factory after you research it. That way it is both air an mech unit and a meat shield. What say you Blizzard?
by that line of reasoning it would make sense to have the hellbat be able to be made from the barracks though
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On October 17 2012 09:45 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 09:44 Blamajama wrote:
Yeah why not do for the Viking what they did with the battle helion. Don't let Vikings land until you get some upgrade. And have them produced from the factory after you research it. That way it is both air an mech unit and a meat shield. What say you Blizzard? by that line of reasoning it would make sense to have the hellbat be able to be made from the barracks though
The battle helion concept is just broken if you commit to bio play. I mean how can you get that upgrade reasonably if you are using your factory for reactor building and scouting? Then you have to drop the factory again and add a tech lab to my understanding to research that thing. Then you have to land it on another reactor after you research it.
What the hell is the point of it being a bio unit with mech upgrade? I haven't played HotS but just by reasoning, I don't see how it possibly works with bio play. Maybe as a clean up/emergency unit if anything, but not a late game unit with 0/0 upgrade.
I am completely lost with the reasoning here... can someone tell me how this is working out?
And how the hell do you build medivacs to heal them when you need tanks and ghosts and Vikings for mech.... I mean I guess energy is more cost effective than mineral but if you reactor the port and pump continuous Viking, medivac, just seems like a gas killer to me despite the fact you are saving money, even though helions are the mineral dump to begin with.
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On October 17 2012 09:50 Blamajama wrote:
The battle helion concept is just broken if you commit to bio play. I mean how can you get that upgrade reasonably if you are using your factory for reactor building and scouting? Then you have to drop the factory again and add a tech lab to my understanding to research that thing. Then you have to land it on another reactor after you research it.
What the hell is the point of it being a bio unit with mech upgrade? I haven't played HotS but just by reasoning, I don't see how it possibly works with bio play. Maybe as a clean up/emergency unit if anything, but not a late game unit with 0/0 upgrade.
I am completely lost with the reasoning here... can someone tell me how this is working out?
And how the hell do you build medivacs to heal them when you need tanks and ghosts and Vikings for mech.... I mean I guess energy is more cost effective than mineral but if you reactor the port and pump continuous Viking, medivac, just seems like a gas killer to me despite the fact you are saving money, even though helions are the mineral dump to begin with.
Isn't that part of the concept with terran though? Swapping buildings around to configure your army.
You could open with standard bio +1 naked factory for hellions. Then put down a tech lab for hellbats once you start 2/2 on bio. Once upgrade is done, you want to take your reactor off a barracks anyway since you likely prefer less marines in favour of hellbats. What you build next could be factories, barracks or starports, it doesnt change your hellbat production much at all.
The only reason your upgrades are poor on the factory units is because your armory is working on air upgrades. But if you have hellbats instead of marines, how does colossus hold up against that? With +2 ground mech instead of air you could even use tanks versus colossus. If there is a way to stop mass colossus without going double starports, you're set.
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LMAO thats gold.
Protoss play is like making a salad.
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On October 17 2012 09:07 Psychobabas wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 08:24 RavenLoud wrote:
I think that mech can benefit from another buffer unit that attack fast to deplete immortal shields.
Maybe Blizzard should try:
1) Make viking attack 2x7 instead of 12.
2) Give assault mode viking +1 armor
3) Make assault mode viking use ground mech upgrades instead of air.
4) Make it possible to produce assault mode viking from tech lab factory.
EDIT: Well hey, why not:
Assault mode vikings are now biological and can be healed.
Archons splash sucks against vikings anyway. 1 + 2 are good but it would need something like 8x2 or it would be even worse vs zealots.
Yes, they are not suppose to counter Zealots, you have Battle Hellions for that, so what is the problem?
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On October 17 2012 17:00 MasterCynical wrote:LMAO thats gold. Protoss play is like making a salad.
I always thought of it more like this 
+ Show Spoiler +
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its viable, but imo its still a gimmick in tvp. Basicly toss can do all kind of random builds with random timing/with differnt units and win. While bio builds in wol could basicly stop and handle any kind of cheeze/greedy play/abuse/allin/timing.
I still see morrow losing to bad players, building random stuff, which imo would never work vs standard tvp bio.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
I do think it's viable, in the strictest sense of the word. A player can make it work and if they play better than their opponent they can win. Hell I think they can win if they just play as well as their opponent and get into the late game. But it's still very fickle: one bad engagement, one tech switched missed, a little bit of greediness unpunished, one time being caught out of position, being only a minute to late on Siege Tech or Ghosts or Vikings or Turrets, not coming out ahead in the early game, etc.
So I still don't see a reason for a top level player to play Mech instead of Bio. You can play a pretty turtley style of Bio or you can be hyper aggressive. Your late game army is still very strong. And there aren't all of these extremely fickle aspects for Bio. And so what will happen is the meta-game for Bio vs P will be 10x more developed than it is for Mech vs P and at a certain point it's just really hard for players to go back and spend months grinding out a style to try and make it work, while there is this other style that works extremely well.
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Mech is really scary right now Widow mine with tank support is really hard to break also with vikings scouting you can easily snipe obs after obs and you get toss in a contain the game is pretty much over since Breaking through a tank widow mine wall is really damn hard. with some battlehellions to stop charge lots it's tough.
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