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On October 08 2012 14:21 avilo wrote:People are not used to playing against things that force you to not 1A units across the map. You now have to pay attention to your units, watch your observer, and be...careful. The widow mine is doing exactly what blizzard wanted and fans wanted - break up the deathball, make the game have more depth. http://drop.sc/262471There is a replay of me playing protoss defending against a proxy factory widow mine shinanigan. Notice pylon walls. Notice I don't 1A stalkers into widow mines and then complain like a lot of people are when they are losing units for no reason. Also notice the amount of observers I built. It will become standard for protoss to build at least 3 observers (should have been doing that already). But going up to 5-6 I can see being much more common as well.
sure thats just want protoss want......more forcing of going robo first on unscoutable builds. Does no one read the OP?
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On October 08 2012 14:38 SuperYo1000 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 14:21 avilo wrote:People are not used to playing against things that force you to not 1A units across the map. You now have to pay attention to your units, watch your observer, and be...careful. The widow mine is doing exactly what blizzard wanted and fans wanted - break up the deathball, make the game have more depth. http://drop.sc/262471There is a replay of me playing protoss defending against a proxy factory widow mine shinanigan. Notice pylon walls. Notice I don't 1A stalkers into widow mines and then complain like a lot of people are when they are losing units for no reason. Also notice the amount of observers I built. It will become standard for protoss to build at least 3 observers (should have been doing that already). But going up to 5-6 I can see being much more common as well. sure thats just want protoss want......more forcing of going robo first on unscoutable builds. Does no one read the OP?
OH NO you have to go robo against their gas. It's not as though you're forced to go robo against CC first or anything. You might be slightly behind if getting gas is a fake or they're going 2/3 rax it might be tough, but in no way is it impossible to respond to.
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On October 08 2012 14:38 SuperYo1000 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 14:21 avilo wrote:People are not used to playing against things that force you to not 1A units across the map. You now have to pay attention to your units, watch your observer, and be...careful. The widow mine is doing exactly what blizzard wanted and fans wanted - break up the deathball, make the game have more depth. http://drop.sc/262471There is a replay of me playing protoss defending against a proxy factory widow mine shinanigan. Notice pylon walls. Notice I don't 1A stalkers into widow mines and then complain like a lot of people are when they are losing units for no reason. Also notice the amount of observers I built. It will become standard for protoss to build at least 3 observers (should have been doing that already). But going up to 5-6 I can see being much more common as well. sure thats just want protoss want......more forcing of going robo first on unscoutable builds. Does no one read the OP?
Watch brood war. It was standard to build a robo for observers to deal with mines. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
The reason I say there's nothing wrong with that is because widow mines are going to be common occurrences now. So the entire unit interactions change because you have to realize the widow mine is not mobile and itself cannot "kill you" unless you horribly mess something up.
If you go stalkers with observers vs someone making widow mines, it's highly possible you kill 3-6 mines without even losing any units.
Lots of things are going to change, people just have to adapt.
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Well husky recently uploaded a video with Qxc vs Zerg and it looked kinda rediculous (Qxc went mass mine).
Anyhow that is TvZ, in PvT i thnk if you get quick 2 gass + centry & hallucination you can get a super quick scout and see what is in his base really quickly. Right?
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I fail to see the issue in this. Terran 1 base pressures are always tough to hold as Protoss but always holdable
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On October 08 2012 13:36 DaveVAH wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 13:10 Zaurus wrote:On October 08 2012 12:31 DaveVAH wrote:On October 08 2012 12:15 Zaurus wrote:
Just make them appear before impact. So they can be Sniped. This makes them weak alone but strong when used together with tank support! That already happens. they are revealed for 1-1.5 seconds when shooting their payload just like bw spider mines. Just goes to show how little folks know about the new game mechanics and are still crying OP. first know the facts please. Check if they can be sniped first before posting a reply?? if they can be seen they can be sniped.
Wrong, you cannot attack the mine even though you can see it.
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you said urslef that you have loose build orders, so basically how could you have any idea of what is to fast? Plus im sure there are other ways to scout other than having an observer in Ts base, lets try i dont know, useing the mother ship core to scout the ramp and check the marine count? o look he has X amount of marines that means he has a factory, which means its either fast banchies or widow mine drop or helein drop, what beats all of them a cannon...
maybe put a prob where the dropship or banchie will fly and say, well he doesn't have an exspo and its 6 min in the game, i supose one cannon wont hurt me to bad as i am already ahead econmicly and if he.
Not everything has to be a fast patch because you are not sure how to deal with it quite yet, i would say that the widow mine is overpower atm but that doesn't mean it should be nerffed just yet, if we nerf every unit and change that 'breaks the game' then what the hell is the point of the exspation, the game NEEDs to be broken, so that it can be rebuilt.
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Man I just got into Beta and got to experience what its like facing the widowmine...
To say the least the widowmine is very powerful and forces Protoss into robo early which puts us at a severe weakness to early pushes. The can scan and snipe observers so easy that in my opinion widowmine is going to need to be changed. Widowmines vaporize gateway units so fast that if you blink you will miss it!
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On October 08 2012 21:39 JediZealot wrote:
Man I just got into Beta and got to experience what its like facing the widowmine...
To say the least the widowmine is very powerful and forces Protoss into robo early which puts us at a severe weakness to early pushes. The can scan and snipe observers so easy that in my opinion widowmine is going to need to be changed. Widowmines vaporize gateway units so fast that if you blink you will miss it!
Its interesting to see how much opinions change when you actually experience something first hand. I wonder how many people that comment are actually in the beta. People should state whether they have beta and experienced it first hand or are simply theory-crafting.
Personally, I have beta, and its really hard for me to face terran right now as they can easily expand behind widow mine openings. A fast window mine opening can mean macro or aggression. Not only that, but each widow mine is extremely cost efficient, at least till mid game.
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On October 08 2012 14:21 avilo wrote:People are not used to playing against things that force you to not 1A units across the map. You now have to pay attention to your units, watch your observer, and be...careful. The widow mine is doing exactly what blizzard wanted and fans wanted - break up the deathball, make the game have more depth. http://drop.sc/262471There is a replay of me playing protoss defending against a proxy factory widow mine shinanigan. Notice pylon walls. Notice I don't 1A stalkers into widow mines and then complain like a lot of people are when they are losing units for no reason. Also notice the amount of observers I built. It will become standard for protoss to build at least 3 observers (should have been doing that already). But going up to 5-6 I can see being much more common as well.
Isn't the new widow mine so wonderful <3
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Thing about the widow mine is it will gurantee damages. 2 widow mines can kill a pack of marines/workers with splash dmg. Even if you reveal it and kill it the dmg was done and the mine paid for itself. Burrowed banelings on the other hand the player controls them, he decides if he should pop them on a group of 5 marines or wait for a larger pack. Also it rewards players for keeping ravens/obs/overseers with the army. Widow mines still get at least one shot off (if not on CD) on your army or even the raven b4 u kill it.
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On October 08 2012 23:48 HeeroFX wrote:
Thing about the widow mine is it will gurantee damages. 2 widow mines can kill a pack of marines/workers with splash dmg. Even if you reveal it and kill it the dmg was done and the mine paid for itself. Burrowed banelings on the other hand the player controls them, he decides if he should pop them on a group of 5 marines or wait for a larger pack. Also it rewards players for keeping ravens/obs/overseers with the army. Widow mines still get at least one shot off (if not on CD) on your army or even the raven b4 u kill it.
You know why they have nearly gurantteed damage? Cause they need it. They would be useless in their form if they hadnt. Thats the concept of the Mine since Broodwar. Also: You can kill it with a detector and a Unit with higher Range than 5.
They only shoot when you run into them carelessly.
And thats the purpose of the mine.
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On October 08 2012 15:25 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 14:38 SuperYo1000 wrote:On October 08 2012 14:21 avilo wrote:People are not used to playing against things that force you to not 1A units across the map. You now have to pay attention to your units, watch your observer, and be...careful. The widow mine is doing exactly what blizzard wanted and fans wanted - break up the deathball, make the game have more depth. http://drop.sc/262471There is a replay of me playing protoss defending against a proxy factory widow mine shinanigan. Notice pylon walls. Notice I don't 1A stalkers into widow mines and then complain like a lot of people are when they are losing units for no reason. Also notice the amount of observers I built. It will become standard for protoss to build at least 3 observers (should have been doing that already). But going up to 5-6 I can see being much more common as well. sure thats just want protoss want......more forcing of going robo first on unscoutable builds. Does no one read the OP? Watch brood war. It was standard to build a robo for observers to deal with mines. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. The reason I say there's nothing wrong with that is because widow mines are going to be common occurrences now. So the entire unit interactions change because you have to realize the widow mine is not mobile and itself cannot "kill you" unless you horribly mess something up. If you go stalkers with observers vs someone making widow mines, it's highly possible you kill 3-6 mines without even losing any units. Lots of things are going to change, people just have to adapt.
Yeah, but the difference in Hots is that mines come out much earlier. In BW you didn't have to rush out detection to deal with spider mines since they needed a weapons shop upgrade before they were available. And most of the times siege mode would have to be upgraded before spider mines. At least in TvP.
What's gonna happen now is that the widow mine is balanced so that it is not too strong in the early game, which is retarded. It needs to be strong mid - lategame which is where terran mech suffers the most.
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On October 09 2012 00:39 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 15:25 avilo wrote:On October 08 2012 14:38 SuperYo1000 wrote:On October 08 2012 14:21 avilo wrote:People are not used to playing against things that force you to not 1A units across the map. You now have to pay attention to your units, watch your observer, and be...careful. The widow mine is doing exactly what blizzard wanted and fans wanted - break up the deathball, make the game have more depth. http://drop.sc/262471There is a replay of me playing protoss defending against a proxy factory widow mine shinanigan. Notice pylon walls. Notice I don't 1A stalkers into widow mines and then complain like a lot of people are when they are losing units for no reason. Also notice the amount of observers I built. It will become standard for protoss to build at least 3 observers (should have been doing that already). But going up to 5-6 I can see being much more common as well. sure thats just want protoss want......more forcing of going robo first on unscoutable builds. Does no one read the OP? Watch brood war. It was standard to build a robo for observers to deal with mines. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. The reason I say there's nothing wrong with that is because widow mines are going to be common occurrences now. So the entire unit interactions change because you have to realize the widow mine is not mobile and itself cannot "kill you" unless you horribly mess something up. If you go stalkers with observers vs someone making widow mines, it's highly possible you kill 3-6 mines without even losing any units. Lots of things are going to change, people just have to adapt. Yeah, but the difference in Hots is that mines come out much earlier. In BW you didn't have to rush out detection to deal with spider mines since they needed a weapons shop upgrade before they were available. And most of the times siege mode would have to be upgraded before spider mines. At least in TvP. What's gonna happen now is that the widow mine is balanced so that it is not too strong in the early game, which is retarded. It needs to be strong mid - lategame which is where terran mech suffers the most.
Would making widow mines require an engineering bay push the timing back far enough? I feel that the armory is to far down the tech tree, but the engineering bay the middle of the road between armory and instantly. That way, the unit that requires detection is connected to the building that allows static detection. It’s not like a factory with a reactor is bad, since it can also make hellions.
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On October 09 2012 00:50 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2012 00:39 one-one-one wrote:On October 08 2012 15:25 avilo wrote:On October 08 2012 14:38 SuperYo1000 wrote:On October 08 2012 14:21 avilo wrote:People are not used to playing against things that force you to not 1A units across the map. You now have to pay attention to your units, watch your observer, and be...careful. The widow mine is doing exactly what blizzard wanted and fans wanted - break up the deathball, make the game have more depth. http://drop.sc/262471There is a replay of me playing protoss defending against a proxy factory widow mine shinanigan. Notice pylon walls. Notice I don't 1A stalkers into widow mines and then complain like a lot of people are when they are losing units for no reason. Also notice the amount of observers I built. It will become standard for protoss to build at least 3 observers (should have been doing that already). But going up to 5-6 I can see being much more common as well. sure thats just want protoss want......more forcing of going robo first on unscoutable builds. Does no one read the OP? Watch brood war. It was standard to build a robo for observers to deal with mines. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. The reason I say there's nothing wrong with that is because widow mines are going to be common occurrences now. So the entire unit interactions change because you have to realize the widow mine is not mobile and itself cannot "kill you" unless you horribly mess something up. If you go stalkers with observers vs someone making widow mines, it's highly possible you kill 3-6 mines without even losing any units. Lots of things are going to change, people just have to adapt. Yeah, but the difference in Hots is that mines come out much earlier. In BW you didn't have to rush out detection to deal with spider mines since they needed a weapons shop upgrade before they were available. And most of the times siege mode would have to be upgraded before spider mines. At least in TvP. What's gonna happen now is that the widow mine is balanced so that it is not too strong in the early game, which is retarded. It needs to be strong mid - lategame which is where terran mech suffers the most. Would making widow mines require an engineering bay push the timing back far enough? I feel that the armory is to far down the tech tree, but the engineering bay the middle of the road between armory and instantly. That way, the unit that requires detection is connected to the building that allows static detection. It’s not like a factory with a reactor is bad, since it can also make hellions.
If we restrict ourselves to TvP I think it depends. Currently it is very hard to fast expand and hold a MsC blink stalker allin. The mine seems to be useful in defending this though. If this strat is nerfed I don't see why an engineering bay requirement shouldn't be OK.
But then again, there might be no issue at all with MsC+blink allins on proper non-blizzard maps.
So ... I guess requiring an e-bay for mines would be OK.
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I havent had the opportunity to play against mines yet, but I am very much looking forward to it from a Protoss perspective. I've been watching it on streams, and it really seems to add a fun new dynamic to a game that has gotten long stale. The long macro games that end with deathball vs deathball, and no conflict until then needs to stop. Anything that kills the deathball painfully is a good thing if you ask me. If it makes 1a-ing across the map a dangerous and risky ordeal then it can't come soon enough if you ask me. If it forces scouting and area control, then this shit is long overdue. And I feel all this is the case with the new widow mine.
I think it should come with armory though, just so that it doesn't force fast tech to lair and force obs before expand every game. I also think the cost should be increased a little. Just a little though, not too much, and lower their HP. I like the idea that there could be mines everywhere and anywhere.
I suspect I will be alone in this one, but I would like to see Immortal shields block SOME of the damage from this shot. Maybe make it do 50 shield damage, or deal 10+the splash damage to the shields.
I think the widow mine could be on it's way to solving one of the biggest problems with SC2 today. At least in one matchup...
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One Mine to scare them all, One Mine to detect them,
One Mine to kill them all and in the base contain them.
And now, seriusly, having re-burrow time after shot, and requiring ebay may be fine, thanks.
And what about "real" minefields, called from Planetary Fortress and deployed like the mules?
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On October 09 2012 01:06 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2012 00:50 Plansix wrote:On October 09 2012 00:39 one-one-one wrote:On October 08 2012 15:25 avilo wrote:On October 08 2012 14:38 SuperYo1000 wrote:On October 08 2012 14:21 avilo wrote:People are not used to playing against things that force you to not 1A units across the map. You now have to pay attention to your units, watch your observer, and be...careful. The widow mine is doing exactly what blizzard wanted and fans wanted - break up the deathball, make the game have more depth. http://drop.sc/262471There is a replay of me playing protoss defending against a proxy factory widow mine shinanigan. Notice pylon walls. Notice I don't 1A stalkers into widow mines and then complain like a lot of people are when they are losing units for no reason. Also notice the amount of observers I built. It will become standard for protoss to build at least 3 observers (should have been doing that already). But going up to 5-6 I can see being much more common as well. sure thats just want protoss want......more forcing of going robo first on unscoutable builds. Does no one read the OP? Watch brood war. It was standard to build a robo for observers to deal with mines. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. The reason I say there's nothing wrong with that is because widow mines are going to be common occurrences now. So the entire unit interactions change because you have to realize the widow mine is not mobile and itself cannot "kill you" unless you horribly mess something up. If you go stalkers with observers vs someone making widow mines, it's highly possible you kill 3-6 mines without even losing any units. Lots of things are going to change, people just have to adapt. Yeah, but the difference in Hots is that mines come out much earlier. In BW you didn't have to rush out detection to deal with spider mines since they needed a weapons shop upgrade before they were available. And most of the times siege mode would have to be upgraded before spider mines. At least in TvP. What's gonna happen now is that the widow mine is balanced so that it is not too strong in the early game, which is retarded. It needs to be strong mid - lategame which is where terran mech suffers the most. Would making widow mines require an engineering bay push the timing back far enough? I feel that the armory is to far down the tech tree, but the engineering bay the middle of the road between armory and instantly. That way, the unit that requires detection is connected to the building that allows static detection. It’s not like a factory with a reactor is bad, since it can also make hellions. If we restrict ourselves to TvP I think it depends. Currently it is very hard to fast expand and hold a MsC blink stalker allin. The mine seems to be useful in defending this though. If this strat is nerfed I don't see why an engineering bay requirement shouldn't be OK. But then again, there might be no issue at all with MsC+blink allins on proper non-blizzard maps. So ... I guess requiring an e-bay for mines would be OK.
How about just making "unstable payload" an upgrade you need to research. That way early game you would have mines that have one time use; it suicides on the unit it attacks. Then later when you research the upgrade the mine rebuilds itself after every use.
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1395 Posts
The main problem I see now with the widow mine (besides its ability to walk to an army and burrow there, but that means just they need larger burrow time imo), is that it is a great unit early/mid game, and becomes obsolete later in the game (at least with the current metagame of deathballs). And I think most terrans wanted the exact opposite in a new unit.
My ideas about widow mines (of course subject to balance changes, only rough mechanics):
Half the damage done by its missiles.
Make it require tech lab
Double its price
Increase burrow time
Don't worry, those were just the first half:
Make it store up to 4 missiles. They start with zero, and a new missile is produced every 10/15 seconds when burrowed. If they keep their stored missiles when unburrowing and walking is up to debate, imo not (or a max of 2).
Add a tech lab research with increases stored missiles to 6 (possibly also build speed).
Result would be that cost per damage stays roughly equal (until upgrade), they cost less population per damage, and they arent really great for dropping in mineral line shenanigans. Because lets face it, while it is funny to see an entire mineral line explode, that was exactly the reason the shredder was removed. This way the widow mine becomes significantly more powerful per population, but at the same time you really need to consider where you place it, since you cant simply use it as a mobile minefield. And it isnt limitted to an early game semi-cheese unit. Also more missiles = more explosions.
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EPT
