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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On October 09 2012 18:45 Sissors wrote:
The main problem I see now with the widow mine (besides its ability to walk to an army and burrow there, but that means just they need larger burrow time imo), is that it is a great unit early/mid game, and becomes obsolete later in the game (at least with the current metagame of deathballs). And I think most terrans wanted the exact opposite in a new unit.
My ideas about widow mines (of course subject to balance changes, only rough mechanics):
Half the damage done by its missiles.
Make it require tech lab
Double its price
Increase burrow time
Don't worry, those were just the first half:
Make it store up to 4 missiles. They start with zero, and a new missile is produced every 10/15 seconds when burrowed. If they keep their stored missiles when unburrowing and walking is up to debate, imo not (or a max of 2).
Add a tech lab research with increases stored missiles to 6 (possibly also build speed).
Result would be that cost per damage stays roughly equal (until upgrade), they cost less population per damage, and they arent really great for dropping in mineral line shenanigans. Because lets face it, while it is funny to see an entire mineral line explode, that was exactly the reason the shredder was removed. This way the widow mine becomes significantly more powerful per population, but at the same time you really need to consider where you place it, since you cant simply use it as a mobile minefield. And it isnt limitted to an early game semi-cheese unit. Also more missiles = more explosions.
That's a terrible idea.
The only reason the widowmine is good now is if the opponent is stupid they actually get punished for it.
Nobody would build a mine if it did barely any damage because it's a stationary unit.
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While I am open to the option that I just have terrible ideas, I don't see how it would do barely any damage. It would still do good damage (same per cost, twice per population, and that would be before their upgrade). Only the difference would be that you need to wait a bit until a burrowed widow mine becomes effective, instead of running it to the enemy and immediatly having 160 damage dealt.
At least that is assuming the goal of the unit is to have a stationary unit to protect flanks, expansions, etc. If it was to have a mobile ultra high burst damage unit, then yes my idea is terrible. But then imo they just need to throw away the mine part.
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What if widow mines were a spell cast by ravens without a duration limit or cost of supply, cast 2 at a time at 150 energy, initially burrowed but able to unburrow, detector, manually castable suicide attack that destroys the mine again? You'd have more utility when you'd be able to drop them at key points to serve as watchtowers with detection with the ability of being able to decide your self if the units that walk over them are worth killing while losing sight at that point. Even if they didn't cost supply you wouldn't be able to mass them without sacrificing resources to get ravens, time and energy so that the raven can't get a seeker missile off after a while.
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This seems very emotional to me :/
Don't get me wrong, though. I'm willing to assume that your previous thread had no emotional feedback or biased opinions.
Anyways, it's way too early to judge it quite yet. I don't think a nerf will be in order until Friday at least, and with very good reason, although I do agree that the best solution will probably turn out to be either nerfing Widow Mines so they can't target cloaked or nerf so they can't target air, preferably the first option. Even as Zerg I am very much so hoping that the Widow Mine remains a very interesting and very deadly unit, like Tanks and Mines from BW.
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At this point i simply don't believe that Blizzard is understanding what makes a good game anylonger.
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I like the mine. It makes mech far more versatile, and fun to play. Yes, it needs some adjustments, but the basic structure should stay the same.
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The mine in its current design is great for Starcraft. It punishes players for being careless with their army and will force more micro from both sides - Terran will have to constantly rearrange their widow mines once the missiles are shot, they can set up traps and baits, or just control new spaces. Any race facing the mines will have to be careful with their observers, overlords, or ravens as well as their army itself when traversing Terran territory. If it's too strong it will be nerfed. My hope is that it isn't nerfed too much.
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The reason why people are even remotely considering this OP is simply because they don't know how to stop it. I have been doing this proxy widow mines vs Protoss a lot lately and I noticed that most of them have no clue wtf to do. Protoss are just illiterate because they just panic, pull all their probes to attack the mine, loses 10+ workers. Screams OP and balance and leaves the game. It seems from my perspective that the mine attacks the nearest units and that it attacks interval of 40 secs, so by simply knowing when to avoid the mine is hardly a rocket science. I stream regular and will be in about 3-4 hours or so and if you watched that majority of protoss really have no clue wtf to do, but to rather just blame the op ness of the mine and how it should get nerfed, but when in reality ITS NOT. This certain protoss, he was gm with a korean name to it, totally forgot what it was, but he placed a probe under it every 40 secs, long enough for him to get a obs out to completely stop the rush, take it that I won because i'm baller, but there you have it 
-scdpride
twitch.tv/pridetv1
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On October 10 2012 02:48 DrowSwordsman wrote:
The mine in its current design is great for Starcraft. It punishes players for being careless with their army and will force more micro from both sides - Terran will have to constantly rearrange their widow mines once the missiles are shot, they can set up traps and baits, or just control new spaces. Any race facing the mines will have to be careful with their observers, overlords, or ravens as well as their army itself when traversing Terran territory. If it's too strong it will be nerfed. My hope is that it isn't nerfed too much.
My thoughts exactly.
Nerfing the burrow time and cost would be enough imo. Also, I don't know how I feel about hitting air too since it hard counters muta pretty hard, but let's see.
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I was about to suggest what I saw GinDo suggest as well. The Widow Mine being visible while recharging its unstable payload might be something interesting. Maybe even add in a reduced movement speed while recharging that payload. You could even buff the damage/recharge time if you changed things like this. Makes the mines a lot more one-shotty, true, but this would reinforce its defensive task while reducing its ridiculous offensive capability.
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The widow mine must change in its current state. It is so ridiculously overpowered in pvt that the entire match up centers around how terran is going to abuse the widow mine (drops, pushes, etc). If you lose an observer, you instantly lose the game.
Having a unit that completely dominates one match-up is horrible design, and if you genuinely believe the unit is going to make it in as-is... I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
All these "ideas" about how to deal with widow mines are, frankly, stupid. The unit has been in the game for about 5 days, and in those fives days 3-4 variants (that I've seen) of all-ins or just harass have developed around one unit. All of which end the game if you don't handle it 100% correctly.
The closest thing that it reminds me of is the infestor in PvZ just after the infestor buff. You knew 100% that zerg was going to go infestor, b/c it was good against every single thing protoss could do at the time, so you just had to prepare as best you could for some kind of infestor play. And you still would probably lose.
It has to change. It is going to change. And in my opinion, they need to revert it back to something that kills itself and go from there.
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^ It will be changed alright. If nothing else, it's AA should be removed. This will be nothing but, T's doing mine contains and expanding comfortably around the map. No thank you.
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On October 10 2012 03:15 HardlyNever wrote:
The widow mine must change in its current state. It is so ridiculously overpowered in pvt that the entire match up centers around how terran is going to abuse the widow mine (drops, pushes, etc). If you lose an observer, you instantly lose the game.
Having a unit that completely dominates one match-up is horrible design, and if you genuinely believe the unit is going to make it in as-is... I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
All these "ideas" about how to deal with widow mines are, frankly, stupid. The unit has been in the game for about 5 days, and in those fives days 3-4 variants (that I've seen) of all-ins or just harass have developed around one unit. All of which end the game if you don't handle it 100% correctly.
The closest thing that it reminds me of is the infestor in PvZ just after the infestor buff. You knew 100% that zerg was going to go infestor, b/c it was good against every single thing protoss could do at the time, so you just had to prepare as best you could for some kind of infestor play. And you still would probably lose.
It has to change. It is going to change. And in my opinion, they need to revert it back to something that kills itself and go from there.
Its hardly OP at all, you probably just one of those protoss that sends all the workers at the mine hoping it will die, loses about 12+ probes and rage qq =/. it honestly needs a different buff to make it a core unit imo
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On October 10 2012 03:31 Phoenix2003 wrote:
^ It will be changed alright. If nothing else, it's AA should be removed. This will be nothing but, T's doing mine contains and expanding comfortably around the map. No thank you.
it needs a bigger splash imo, we need something early game because our late game isn't as favored as p and z are 
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On October 10 2012 03:32 PrideTV wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 03:15 HardlyNever wrote:
The widow mine must change in its current state. It is so ridiculously overpowered in pvt that the entire match up centers around how terran is going to abuse the widow mine (drops, pushes, etc). If you lose an observer, you instantly lose the game.
Having a unit that completely dominates one match-up is horrible design, and if you genuinely believe the unit is going to make it in as-is... I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
All these "ideas" about how to deal with widow mines are, frankly, stupid. The unit has been in the game for about 5 days, and in those fives days 3-4 variants (that I've seen) of all-ins or just harass have developed around one unit. All of which end the game if you don't handle it 100% correctly.
The closest thing that it reminds me of is the infestor in PvZ just after the infestor buff. You knew 100% that zerg was going to go infestor, b/c it was good against every single thing protoss could do at the time, so you just had to prepare as best you could for some kind of infestor play. And you still would probably lose.
It has to change. It is going to change. And in my opinion, they need to revert it back to something that kills itself and go from there. Its hardly OP at all, you probably just one of those protoss that sends all the workers at the mine hoping it will die, loses about 12+ probes and rage qq =/. it honestly needs a different buff to make it a core unit imo
Please stop trolling this thread.
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On October 10 2012 03:33 PrideTV wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 03:31 Phoenix2003 wrote:
^ It will be changed alright. If nothing else, it's AA should be removed. This will be nothing but, T's doing mine contains and expanding comfortably around the map. No thank you. it needs a bigger splash imo, we need something early game because our late game isn't as favored as p and z are
I've seen these things annihilate late-game air armies (Morrow's stream). I don't think it's fair to say with a unit like this that late game balance is set in stone in HOTS.
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On October 10 2012 03:35 HardlyNever wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 03:32 PrideTV wrote:On October 10 2012 03:15 HardlyNever wrote:
The widow mine must change in its current state. It is so ridiculously overpowered in pvt that the entire match up centers around how terran is going to abuse the widow mine (drops, pushes, etc). If you lose an observer, you instantly lose the game.
Having a unit that completely dominates one match-up is horrible design, and if you genuinely believe the unit is going to make it in as-is... I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
All these "ideas" about how to deal with widow mines are, frankly, stupid. The unit has been in the game for about 5 days, and in those fives days 3-4 variants (that I've seen) of all-ins or just harass have developed around one unit. All of which end the game if you don't handle it 100% correctly.
The closest thing that it reminds me of is the infestor in PvZ just after the infestor buff. You knew 100% that zerg was going to go infestor, b/c it was good against every single thing protoss could do at the time, so you just had to prepare as best you could for some kind of infestor play. And you still would probably lose.
It has to change. It is going to change. And in my opinion, they need to revert it back to something that kills itself and go from there. Its hardly OP at all, you probably just one of those protoss that sends all the workers at the mine hoping it will die, loses about 12+ probes and rage qq =/. it honestly needs a different buff to make it a core unit imo Please stop trolling this thread.
How am I trolling? You scream op because you haven't stopped it.. have you tried stopping it in anyway shape or form?
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On October 10 2012 03:39 DrowSwordsman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 03:33 PrideTV wrote:On October 10 2012 03:31 Phoenix2003 wrote:
^ It will be changed alright. If nothing else, it's AA should be removed. This will be nothing but, T's doing mine contains and expanding comfortably around the map. No thank you. it needs a bigger splash imo, we need something early game because our late game isn't as favored as p and z are I've seen these things annihilate late-game air armies (Morrow's stream). I don't think it's fair to say with a unit like this that late game balance is set in stone in HOTS.
its like banels, do terran complains that we lose 20 marines to 5 banel mines?
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Maybe the mine could be balanced by making it slower and not transportable by medivac (because it's too unstable).
That way, the mine could still be powerful and useful for positional play, but not so much for difficult to balance early attacks.
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EPT
