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On October 10 2012 03:44 Salient wrote:
Maybe the mine could be balanced by making it slower and not transportable by medivac (because it's too unstable).
That way, the mine could still be powerful and useful for positional play, but not so much for difficult to balance early attacks.
Its fast I would have to admit, but how slow is slow? overlord speed?
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On October 10 2012 03:43 PrideTV wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 03:39 DrowSwordsman wrote:On October 10 2012 03:33 PrideTV wrote:On October 10 2012 03:31 Phoenix2003 wrote:
^ It will be changed alright. If nothing else, it's AA should be removed. This will be nothing but, T's doing mine contains and expanding comfortably around the map. No thank you. it needs a bigger splash imo, we need something early game because our late game isn't as favored as p and z are  I've seen these things annihilate late-game air armies (Morrow's stream). I don't think it's fair to say with a unit like this that late game balance is set in stone in HOTS. its like banels, do terran complains that we lose 20 marines to 5 banel mines?
I have no idea how that relates in any way to me saying late game balance in HOTS is not yet determined and acting like it is is silly.
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On October 10 2012 03:46 DrowSwordsman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 03:43 PrideTV wrote:On October 10 2012 03:39 DrowSwordsman wrote:On October 10 2012 03:33 PrideTV wrote:On October 10 2012 03:31 Phoenix2003 wrote:
^ It will be changed alright. If nothing else, it's AA should be removed. This will be nothing but, T's doing mine contains and expanding comfortably around the map. No thank you. it needs a bigger splash imo, we need something early game because our late game isn't as favored as p and z are I've seen these things annihilate late-game air armies (Morrow's stream). I don't think it's fair to say with a unit like this that late game balance is set in stone in HOTS. its like banels, do terran complains that we lose 20 marines to 5 banel mines? I have no idea how that relates in any way to me saying late game balance in HOTS is not yet determined and acting like it is is silly.
cost-effectiveness? I guess we should all just 1 a without looking at the screen or build detection right/
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On October 10 2012 03:48 PrideTV wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 03:46 DrowSwordsman wrote:On October 10 2012 03:43 PrideTV wrote:On October 10 2012 03:39 DrowSwordsman wrote:On October 10 2012 03:33 PrideTV wrote:On October 10 2012 03:31 Phoenix2003 wrote:
^ It will be changed alright. If nothing else, it's AA should be removed. This will be nothing but, T's doing mine contains and expanding comfortably around the map. No thank you. it needs a bigger splash imo, we need something early game because our late game isn't as favored as p and z are I've seen these things annihilate late-game air armies (Morrow's stream). I don't think it's fair to say with a unit like this that late game balance is set in stone in HOTS. its like banels, do terran complains that we lose 20 marines to 5 banel mines? I have no idea how that relates in any way to me saying late game balance in HOTS is not yet determined and acting like it is is silly. cost-effectiveness? I guess we should all just 1 a without looking at the screen or build detection right/
I understand you're from vietnam and English may not be your first language but if you can't understand what I'm saying, you need to stop posting. I made a reply four replies above your original post saying I think the widow mine is a great addition to Heart Of The Swarm. Your posts are nonsensical.
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On October 10 2012 03:49 DrowSwordsman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 03:48 PrideTV wrote:On October 10 2012 03:46 DrowSwordsman wrote:On October 10 2012 03:43 PrideTV wrote:On October 10 2012 03:39 DrowSwordsman wrote:On October 10 2012 03:33 PrideTV wrote:On October 10 2012 03:31 Phoenix2003 wrote:
^ It will be changed alright. If nothing else, it's AA should be removed. This will be nothing but, T's doing mine contains and expanding comfortably around the map. No thank you. it needs a bigger splash imo, we need something early game because our late game isn't as favored as p and z are I've seen these things annihilate late-game air armies (Morrow's stream). I don't think it's fair to say with a unit like this that late game balance is set in stone in HOTS. its like banels, do terran complains that we lose 20 marines to 5 banel mines? I have no idea how that relates in any way to me saying late game balance in HOTS is not yet determined and acting like it is is silly. cost-effectiveness? I guess we should all just 1 a without looking at the screen or build detection right/ I understand you're from vietnam and English may not be your first language but if you can't understand what I'm saying, you need to stop posting. I made a reply four replies above your original post saying I think the widow mine is a great addition to Heart Of The Swarm. Your posts are nonsensical.
so I re-read >.>.  OPPPSSS, but it has been determine P and Z are still favored late game vs t
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On October 10 2012 03:15 HardlyNever wrote:
It is so ridiculously overpowered in pvt that the entire match up centers around how terran is going to abuse the widow mine (drops, pushes, etc). If you lose an observer, you instantly lose the game.
I don't see how this is the case and I agree with PrideTV about people not countering it properly. Watching PrideTV do the same strategies you're referring to, it seems like a lot of players don't actually know how the widow mine works. The targeting system cannot be controlled by the player, so its attack can be baited by a single probe or zealot, and then it's 40 seconds before it can attack again.
Regarding the widow mines for harassing economy, I've seen a lot of players react by pulling probes to try to attack it, thus, clumping them up and making them more susceptible to AoE. The splash will not kill nearly as many probes when the workers are mining as normal.
The mine will probably be tweaked, as you say, but I don't see why they have to revert it to a suicidal unit. Lowering the splash so that it can't one shot more than one probe, making the mine more immobile, tacking on an armory requirement, preventing them from being reactored, and/or increasing its burrow time are all balance tweaks that can be done without fundamentally changing the unit again.
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On October 10 2012 03:42 PrideTV wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 03:35 HardlyNever wrote:On October 10 2012 03:32 PrideTV wrote:On October 10 2012 03:15 HardlyNever wrote:
The widow mine must change in its current state. It is so ridiculously overpowered in pvt that the entire match up centers around how terran is going to abuse the widow mine (drops, pushes, etc). If you lose an observer, you instantly lose the game.
Having a unit that completely dominates one match-up is horrible design, and if you genuinely believe the unit is going to make it in as-is... I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
All these "ideas" about how to deal with widow mines are, frankly, stupid. The unit has been in the game for about 5 days, and in those fives days 3-4 variants (that I've seen) of all-ins or just harass have developed around one unit. All of which end the game if you don't handle it 100% correctly.
The closest thing that it reminds me of is the infestor in PvZ just after the infestor buff. You knew 100% that zerg was going to go infestor, b/c it was good against every single thing protoss could do at the time, so you just had to prepare as best you could for some kind of infestor play. And you still would probably lose.
It has to change. It is going to change. And in my opinion, they need to revert it back to something that kills itself and go from there. Its hardly OP at all, you probably just one of those protoss that sends all the workers at the mine hoping it will die, loses about 12+ probes and rage qq =/. it honestly needs a different buff to make it a core unit imo Please stop trolling this thread. How am I trolling? You scream op because you haven't stopped it.. have you tried stopping it in anyway shape or form?
How you are trolling:
1) You suggest buffing a unit that is almost universally regarded as broken, currently.
2) You know nothing about me, what level of play I'm at, or what I have or haven't tried "stopping," but make claims about it anyhow.
When the widow mine is nerfed next patch, can I come back here and shove it in your face? Because right now, I'm feeling like I'm going to.
Edit: For something resembling a balanced reaction (from a terran) to the widow mine, and how it is currently overpowered against protoss, see this guy's post:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6794831934
It is also pretty sad I have to go to the b.net forums of all places to get a level-headed discussion of the beta.
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On October 10 2012 03:45 PrideTV wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 03:44 Salient wrote:
Maybe the mine could be balanced by making it slower and not transportable by medivac (because it's too unstable).
That way, the mine could still be powerful and useful for positional play, but not so much for difficult to balance early attacks. Its fast I would have to admit, but how slow is slow? overlord speed?
Maybe it should have a similar movement speed to the mech units it is desiged to support (tanks or thors) and not be capable of transport by medivac. The unit has the potential to make mech play more viable. I think it would be best to make sure any nerfs don't take away from its ability to support mech. The high damage and ability to kill air units makes it a good addition to mech. So, if it needs to be nerfed, it eould be best to nerf its mobility. That way the unit can still complement mech, even if it loses its potential for gimmicky play and early attacks.
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On October 10 2012 03:33 PrideTV wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 03:31 Phoenix2003 wrote:
^ It will be changed alright. If nothing else, it's AA should be removed. This will be nothing but, T's doing mine contains and expanding comfortably around the map. No thank you. it needs a bigger splash imo, we need something early game because our late game isn't as favored as p and z are
This is your problem. You don't need anymore early game help against either Z or P. T already has many early game options against toss already. T players like you are just being greedy. Pure and simple. You don't need another AA detector. If you need late game assistance, that's a horse of a different color. The widow mine should a late game unit.
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On October 10 2012 04:02 HardlyNever wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 03:42 PrideTV wrote:On October 10 2012 03:35 HardlyNever wrote:On October 10 2012 03:32 PrideTV wrote:On October 10 2012 03:15 HardlyNever wrote:
The widow mine must change in its current state. It is so ridiculously overpowered in pvt that the entire match up centers around how terran is going to abuse the widow mine (drops, pushes, etc). If you lose an observer, you instantly lose the game.
Having a unit that completely dominates one match-up is horrible design, and if you genuinely believe the unit is going to make it in as-is... I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
All these "ideas" about how to deal with widow mines are, frankly, stupid. The unit has been in the game for about 5 days, and in those fives days 3-4 variants (that I've seen) of all-ins or just harass have developed around one unit. All of which end the game if you don't handle it 100% correctly.
The closest thing that it reminds me of is the infestor in PvZ just after the infestor buff. You knew 100% that zerg was going to go infestor, b/c it was good against every single thing protoss could do at the time, so you just had to prepare as best you could for some kind of infestor play. And you still would probably lose.
It has to change. It is going to change. And in my opinion, they need to revert it back to something that kills itself and go from there. Its hardly OP at all, you probably just one of those protoss that sends all the workers at the mine hoping it will die, loses about 12+ probes and rage qq =/. it honestly needs a different buff to make it a core unit imo Please stop trolling this thread. How am I trolling? You scream op because you haven't stopped it.. have you tried stopping it in anyway shape or form? How you are trolling: 1) You suggest buffing a unit that is almost universally regarded as broken, currently. 2) You know nothing about me, what level of play I'm at, or what I have or haven't tried "stopping," but make claims about it anyhow. When the widow mine is nerfed next patch, can I come back here and shove it in your face? Because right now, I'm feeling like I'm going to. Edit: For something resembling a balanced reaction (from a terran) to the widow mine, and how it is currently overpowered against protoss, see this guy's post: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6794831934It is also pretty sad I have to go to the b.net forums of all places to get a level-headed discussion of the beta.
I find the last sentence very ironic given the way you are arguing.
Only because a unit is "almost" universally regarded as broken doesn't make it so.
He is right in that most of the complaints are caused by people who are terrible and thus doesn't know how to stop mine abuse.
The widow mine might be tweaked a little bit next patch so you will probably be right. It wouldn't be the first time they knee-jerk nerfed terran because the other races were whining too much if that is what they will do.
Though it would be reasonable to keep its stats or even buff them a bit but delay the tech so that mines are out a bit later.
This could be motivated by design arguments alone completely disregarding any balance analysis.
If that happens will you still come and "rub it in his face"?
Blizzard should let this play out and it will eventually show if the mine is OP or not. It has had its current stats for less than 4 days and everyone is screaming OP, jeez.
Even if you happen to be the best protoss on earth it doesn't give you the right to call OP. As long as there are strategies and tactics yet to be tried no one can claim such a thing.
I think that it is possible to defend mine aggression with a large number of protoss and zerg builds.
But right now protoss players go 1 gate expand and die to mine aggression and rage about it.
Guess what? 1 gate expand might end up like 1 rax expand in WoL TvP - a build that could hold all aggression but requires a lot of skill if you are going to hold allins like 4 gate blink or 3 gate void ray.
Last time I played WoL 6 out of 7 protosses went blind 4 gate blink because how common 1 rax expand is. I do it almost every game for instance. I tell myself that I get a lot more valuable practice trying to hold abusive allins than my opponent does performing the allin.
You should try to be creative and find solutions to problems. That is what the beta should be about.
Have you tried to fast expand with a forge like protoss were doing in WoL some time ago?
That build should be safe vs all mine openers except unscouted proxy inbase factory strats.
You can try that and thank me later if it works.
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The widow mine does not need a change right now. What needs to change is protoss player's mentalities. You can't just 1A units anymore guys. Get over it.
The Starcraft community has to realize, we asked blizzard for more depth, and they are giving it to us with a lot of the new units. When they finally do this, over half of you immediately go, "omg this is OP as fuck, i have to pay attention to my units now?"
Everyone, everyone here. If you have this game called starcraft brood war. Go load it up, and get someone good to play a tvp/pvt against. Play a few games against spider mines and try and play Protoss like you do in wings of liberty just walking across the map without observers, and just watch what happens. You're going to lose every game horribly.
Even worse...the spider mines are 0 supply and they give you the fastest unit in the game to harrass probes with. This shit is "OP." But remember? Every Protoss learned to clear mines, always have an obs with dragoons that they sent out onto the map, it became standard occurrence and necessary.
Don't ask for more depth from HOTS and then say "OP" when it's given to you.
It's been what, 3 days? Protoss players literally suck at dealing with mines. Most of my games so far are Protosses walking into them and claiming imbalance. Wait 2-3 weeks. It's going to take a while for people to get out of the habits they have in wings of liberty where it doesn't matter where they move their army. And not building more than 2 observers.
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On October 10 2012 05:25 avilo wrote:
Even worse...the spider mines are 0 supply and they give you the fastest unit in the game to harrass probes with. This shit is "OP." But remember? Every Protoss learned to clear mines, always have an obs with dragoons that they sent out onto the map, it became standard occurrence and necessary.
You may be right about Protoss needing to learn to deal with the mines before we call OP, but I wouldn't bother with BW comparisons like this. The games are so different that any specific unit comparisons of this sort are pointless. Take just one of the differences that matter in this case - Observers in SC2 share build times with Colossi that you need to mass unlike in BW.
Just saying 'Build more Observers!' doesn't take the big picture into account.
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Terrans don't care for the big picture. They just want their race to be OP again,prior to WoL release. They just want to go back to 90% win rates, TvX again.
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before I continue with my discussion, what league? If you're anything below master please.. this conversation is already over.
On October 10 2012 04:02 HardlyNever wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 03:42 PrideTV wrote:On October 10 2012 03:35 HardlyNever wrote:On October 10 2012 03:32 PrideTV wrote:On October 10 2012 03:15 HardlyNever wrote:
The widow mine must change in its current state. It is so ridiculously overpowered in pvt that the entire match up centers around how terran is going to abuse the widow mine (drops, pushes, etc). If you lose an observer, you instantly lose the game.
Having a unit that completely dominates one match-up is horrible design, and if you genuinely believe the unit is going to make it in as-is... I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
All these "ideas" about how to deal with widow mines are, frankly, stupid. The unit has been in the game for about 5 days, and in those fives days 3-4 variants (that I've seen) of all-ins or just harass have developed around one unit. All of which end the game if you don't handle it 100% correctly.
The closest thing that it reminds me of is the infestor in PvZ just after the infestor buff. You knew 100% that zerg was going to go infestor, b/c it was good against every single thing protoss could do at the time, so you just had to prepare as best you could for some kind of infestor play. And you still would probably lose.
It has to change. It is going to change. And in my opinion, they need to revert it back to something that kills itself and go from there. Its hardly OP at all, you probably just one of those protoss that sends all the workers at the mine hoping it will die, loses about 12+ probes and rage qq =/. it honestly needs a different buff to make it a core unit imo Please stop trolling this thread. How am I trolling? You scream op because you haven't stopped it.. have you tried stopping it in anyway shape or form? How you are trolling: 1) You suggest buffing a unit that is almost universally regarded as broken, currently. 2) You know nothing about me, what level of play I'm at, or what I have or haven't tried "stopping," but make claims about it anyhow. When the widow mine is nerfed next patch, can I come back here and shove it in your face? Because right now, I'm feeling like I'm going to. Edit: For something resembling a balanced reaction (from a terran) to the widow mine, and how it is currently overpowered against protoss, see this guy's post: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6794831934It is also pretty sad I have to go to the b.net forums of all places to get a level-headed discussion of the beta.
Finally someone agrees..
On October 10 2012 05:25 avilo wrote:
The widow mine does not need a change right now. What needs to change is protoss player's mentalities. You can't just 1A units anymore guys. Get over it.
The Starcraft community has to realize, we asked blizzard for more depth, and they are giving it to us with a lot of the new units. When they finally do this, over half of you immediately go, "omg this is OP as fuck, i have to pay attention to my units now?"
Everyone, everyone here. If you have this game called starcraft brood war. Go load it up, and get someone good to play a tvp/pvt against. Play a few games against spider mines and try and play Protoss like you do in wings of liberty just walking across the map without observers, and just watch what happens. You're going to lose every game horribly.
Even worse...the spider mines are 0 supply and they give you the fastest unit in the game to harrass probes with. This shit is "OP." But remember? Every Protoss learned to clear mines, always have an obs with dragoons that they sent out onto the map, it became standard occurrence and necessary.
Don't ask for more depth from HOTS and then say "OP" when it's given to you.
It's been what, 3 days? Protoss players literally suck at dealing with mines. Most of my games so far are Protosses walking into them and claiming imbalance. Wait 2-3 weeks. It's going to take a while for people to get out of the habits they have in wings of liberty where it doesn't matter where they move their army. And not building more than 2 observers.
User was temp banned for this post.
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This thread has become a haven for terran fan-boys that don't give a rat's ass about actual balance, lead by the biggest terran qq'er in the NA community, Avilo.
It is getting nerfed. Prepare your qq now. If you can't see how broken the unit currently is for its cost/tech level then you have absolutely no clue how to design a game at the most basic level.
I'll be back when it gets nerfed to soak up the sweet, sweet terran tears. Until then, I'm done with this discussion.
And the comparisons to BW are genuinely hilarious. Spider mines can't kill observers. Nor can they be directly put in dropships/medivacs. That alone is a world of difference. That line of reasoning is made out of pure fail.
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On October 10 2012 06:15 HardlyNever wrote:
This thread has become a haven for terran fan-boys that don't give a rat's ass about actual balance, lead by the biggest terran qq'er in the NA community, Avilo.
It is getting nerfed. Prepare your qq now. If you can't see how broken the unit currently is for its cost/tech level then you have absolutely no clue how to design a game at the most basic level.
I'll be back when it gets nerfed to soak up the sweet, sweet terran tears. Until then, I'm done with this discussion.
And the comparisons to BW are genuinely hilarious. Spider mines can't kill observers. Nor can they be directly put in dropships/medivacs. That alone is a world of difference. That line of reasoning is made out of pure fail.
you must be a silver, probalby losing a zealot to a marine, which i don't even know how its possible but it is apparently.
I'm streaming right now, and you can watch as all the protoss qq at me for OP ness when all they simply pull all their workers to attack the mine. I bet after watching a few games you finally realized that it itsn't op as everyone claims it to be ..
SMART.
twitch.tv/pridetv1
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Instead of some knee-jerk reaction, Blizzard should probably wait at least another month or so before re-balancing the WM stats. I would like to see more pro player usage of the WM first.
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On October 10 2012 06:27 PrideTV wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 06:15 HardlyNever wrote:
This thread has become a haven for terran fan-boys that don't give a rat's ass about actual balance, lead by the biggest terran qq'er in the NA community, Avilo.
It is getting nerfed. Prepare your qq now. If you can't see how broken the unit currently is for its cost/tech level then you have absolutely no clue how to design a game at the most basic level.
I'll be back when it gets nerfed to soak up the sweet, sweet terran tears. Until then, I'm done with this discussion.
And the comparisons to BW are genuinely hilarious. Spider mines can't kill observers. Nor can they be directly put in dropships/medivacs. That alone is a world of difference. That line of reasoning is made out of pure fail. you must be a silver, probalby losing a zealot to a marine, which i don't even know how its possible but it is apparently. I'm streaming right now, and you can watch as all the protoss qq at me for OP ness when all they simply pull all their workers to attack the mine. I bet after watching a few games you finally realized that it itsn't op as everyone claims it to be .. SMART. twitch.tv/pridetv1
Yes, definitely "a silver:"
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/406103/1/HardlyNever/
I would try having a real discussion about why the widow mine is currently broken (centered around how it dictates what the protoss must do to an extreme degree), but that clearly isn't something you are capable of, and have constantly resorted to erroneous ad hominem attacks.
I'll be back for the tears post-patch.
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I have this replay here that is driving me absolutely nuts. Apparently the koreans don't have beta in their region, or I'm just too stupid and lazy to bother finding out:
http://drop.sc/261829
I proxy a factory and stick it in his base. I build a mine, put it in his mineral line without him noticing a thing, and...gather about 5 probe kills. He attacks the proxy factory, my mine burrows and autokills a sentry while being shot at by a core and virtually every unit he had out at the time. He has already built an expansion and robo and has an obs on the way.
Total result of shenaniganry: 5 probe kills, 1 sentry kill. Kind of weak, but every game where someone doesn't go straight for a robo results in an autoloss for them when I do this strategy.
I have mediocre macro, and attempt to transition into a 5 rax. The guy has stalkers in the main, sentry / immortal / core in the natural, and is able to convincingly defend, even while spinning 2 forges after building a stargate to get an oracle. Said oracle caps my minerals as soon as I move out. It's almost too perfect. Yeah, I know the attack was shitty, but still...
What I'm reading from this game, is that if I play passively, he'll just juice up his forges via Energize and murder me with some sort of 3/3 thingy of sorts (if you haven't figured out by now, I have no clue how TvP works). If I do attack, then he hits purify and I have to back off. I don't think I can just "come back", because he'll have his second or third collosus by the time I'm able to attack more than one spot simultaneously.
Every time I've used mines for non-gimmicky purposes in TvP, mech or bio, I just get rolled. I could imagine trying to snipe obs with vikings so that they don't just a-move kill the mines before attacking the tanks...but...it just doesn't sound good.
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EPT
