OP back. Lemme lay down some sweet logical tunes right now.
Not sure if my point got across. #1. You can't go anything but robo now against Terran. #2. You have 0 scouting information until observer #2(a). Since you only see a gas go down, you have no idea whether widow mines, fast stim/shield push, hellion drop, widow drop, or banshees are coming. #2(a)(1). If you fast expand off of one gate, one robo, a quick stim/shield push will blow your brains out on maps with wide chokes (which all but one of the HOTS maps have) #2(a)(2). If you don't fast expand, and he does, you will be behind tremendously in economy. #2(a)(3). Even if you test his front with zealot-stalker, he can easily fake you out with a bunker+4 marines with no CC going down behind it, so you, again, won't know if he's going macro or early attack (and if you GUESS [because it is a guess if he plays well] you will either die to his harass or be way behind macro. #3. Mid and Late game, a terran can easily pump out a few widow mines (regardless of what he's doing) whenever he wants- hanging an observer + a few units at every single mineral line is ridiculously inefficient, so ideally you just lay down a cannon in each line. #3(a). But if he drops MMM, a cannon is just useless and dies immediately. #3(b). Let's say you kill the drop, but the advantage isn't enough that you can push and kill him. Guess what- next time he'll drop widow mines. #3(b)(1). So you can either build another observer and leave units there to snipe the mines, or build another cannon. #3(b)(2). Then he can easily scan (and if this is 3+ base macro game, that costs him very little) and if you have an obs- he drops two mines which blow up your mineral line before they get killed (because widows have way too much health) OR he sees another cannon, and just drops MMM (which might take your nexus or a bunch of workers) #3(c) so ideally the answer is to just use templar to feedback the medivac #3(c)(1)- but if the medivac doesn't die and it's carrying widow mines, the templar is useless (storm not so great against 2 widow mines) #3(d)- So how the damn hell do I defend both at once without committing like 5+ units plus an observer to every damn mineral line?
So let's review- I think PvT is now just one base all-ins v. a one gas Terran. Nothing else is practical against a high level player. One gas spotted doesn't mean he can't fast expand. But the only way to check is with a zealot-stalker poke (so far). But he can just lay down a bunker with his first set of marines, but not actually expand. So if I want to be sure he's macroing, I have to sack a zealot and probably lose half my health on the stalker. But since that's obviously impractical, I have to go gate-robo-gate-gate every damn game in case he's either rushing early stim, or going widows (or hellion drop, or banshees). And when my observer finally comes out, if I see he faked me out and did go fast expand, I have no choice but to all-in (probably the 3 immortal+gate units before stim finishes).
And again, the late game harass problem. The ideal solution on a 3 base+ macro game is vastly different against MMM and Widows. And he can just check which one I did. Or I can just dedicate like 10 supply to every damn mineral line in units+observers, and then when he pushes my front, I die because I'm down 20 supply in my main army.
So, to sum up- there are massive problems with the widow right now. It adds another layer to the early game for Terrans against toss that basically forces us to wait until and obs pops to fast expand. But HE can fast expand without us knowing (if he plays well). So then I'm sitting there with 2/3rds his income and no choice but to go all in. AND it makes PvT so fucking boring. I HAVE to get a robo first. He doesn't even have to scan me to see if I go robo first- he knows that I have to because of widow mines. Even if he doesn't kill me early, he can just start pumping out vikings at the ten minute mark because he knows I have to go colossi to stop a MMM push (or defend perfectly with chargelot-archon after blowing a ton of gas on a robo and two observers early). This makes the game far more boring, and easy for him. Does he even need to scout before the 10 minute medivac MMM push?
All of this, and he just needs to go one gas when I scout with my probe. My CHOICES are FORCED. I have no options. I have to go robo. I have to send an observer to scout him. I almost certainly have to build another to keep at my base in case he drops widows. I CANNOT fast expand until I know he does, and I SHOULDNT know that (unless he's playing badly) until my first observer gets over there. And that might be two minutes after the CC has started.
Protoss is reduced to playing blindly against a wild range of options, and it makes the game skill-less. It's rock paper scissors. Maybe I go chargelot archon and he is doing standard MMM, and I crush him. But I just got lucky. I didn't respond to what he was doing. I just blindly went a path that turned out to be right. That isn't skill, it's pure dumb luck.
I'd just like to point out that the common play TvZ right now is hellion-banshees into blue flame hellion-mech. And the goal there is to just smash so many drones the zerg is contained. Right now, is there even a reason to get hellions? Widow mines+ 1 medivac for drops do damage to mineral lines and light units way better, faster, more efficiently, and require detection to spot. The developers decided that hey, the Terran didn't have powerful enough harassment options with hellions or MMM, so screw it, let's give them units that can kill 10 probes/drones instantly and require detection to spot (and don't require more tech than hellions?)? Huh?
Add that on to the fact that they gave Toss two new Stargate units, only to make stargate tech an even more useless path against Terran? And now you can't even go fast templar or chargelot archon without just getting lucky?
yeah you guys are right. I should just say nothing and accept that a game built around skill and interacting choices of players is turning into a freaking linear rpg.
there is some seriously inconsistent logic in your argument A)
#1. You can't go anything but robo now against Terran.
B)
Protoss is reduced to playing blindly against a wild range of options, and it makes the game skill-less. It's rock paper scissors.
these statements are in complete conflict with each other in every possible way, from protoss playing blind (you have obs) to there being a wild range of options (because you have to go obs)
finally
a freaking linear rpg.
no, it's called standard play
eventually the game will be boiled down to a science where all experimentation is done for and there is "the build" and a few variations of said build for each matchup, with the interaction of deviation from standard play where in some games one player attempts to cuts corners in order to gain an advantage over the player doing the standard build, and in some games a player does an aggressive build to punish players who attempt to cut said corners, and then you have the next tier which consists of players like flash who cut corners so at such a perfect science that they make any attempts to punish them for being greedy look downright silly
it seems like you do not understand this tension at all, otherwise you would not be complaining that you need the robo.
Your logic is flawed, you exaggerate to much, are filled with bias, and are to emotional, that is why your thread was locked in b.net forums. The deves find your points moot as do I and any other tl member not enveloped in bias. Masters terran and protoss player here die swarm!
I am not fortunate enough to have a HOTS beta key but I agree that this new widow mine unbalances the game.
It lowers the skill cap for terran players. They have a unit which is essentially unmicro-able because of the forced auto-cast. It is a unit that only requires three functions by the user: Build it, move it, burrow it. This makes the game easier for terran players. (not counting mirror matchups)
As it makes the game easier for terran players, it makes it slightly more difficult for protoss and zerg players. Non-terrans are forced to build more detectors and be more active with them to spot the mines. And because widow mines can attack cloaked flying units, they can destroy any observer that flies within range. (not sure if it one hit kills overseers) Basically terrans can afford to do less and protoss and zerg are forced to do more.
I think the widow mine would be much more balanced if it had no auto-target. Zergs have already been doing that sort of thing with burrowed banelings. There is no auto-cast on burrowed banelings, they must be manually detonated which raises the skill cap as it requires an extra action. Having an no autocast would also prevent the mines from detonating wastefully as it would be the users choice when to detonate.
Let me know your thoughts. I'm not the smartest guy in the world but I think my idea is at least in the right direction for widow mines. The warhound was already taken out because it was an a-click unit, a unit that wasn't really microed which is what I believe we are seeing with the current widow mine.
It's only been a few days. Give it some time before you claim it's hopeless. Also, it was pretty emotional feedback.
You know, I just realized something kinda funny about this thread. I never thought I would see the day where a thread that wasn't good enough for the Blizzard forums would get reposted on TL. I guess they have high standards for beta feedback threads or something. Either way, it's just not something I thought I would ever see, ever.
Wow, let me just say that Oracle has soft detection and cannons are detection, not sure if that makes a huge difference, but I feel like Protoss isn't forced to go observers in the early game.
In BW, where the mine mechanic was similar enough to allow for comparisom, Protoss had to get a robo becuase of the threat of mines. If you consider the fact that for every mine killed with careful observer/stalker play Terran loses a 75/25 unit without doing any damage the attractiveness of many observers increases.
Also Observers are cheap and many Protoss would go 2gate robo in WoL anyway because it was the safest build. I remember Artosis saying many times that the more Obervers the better in WoL.
Avilo has been offracing as Protoss to show the weaknesses of Mech and mines. Please watch the video from 20mins. If you have legitimate criticism of his play as Protoss in that game then please post it.
On October 10 2012 10:12 Crawdad wrote: IMO, giving soft detection to MsC is a good idea, removing the Evo requirement for Spores is a bad idea.
Giving the MsC detection is a terrible idea. There's already a problem right now with 3-4 gate blink stalker all-ins + the mothership core, can you imagine if you give it detection too -_-
People just aren't used to the mines, i'm off racing right now and as hilarious as it is when I'm Terran to watch protosses 1A into mines, it's equally hilarious watching Terrans send out just mines onto the map to your base expecting freewins. You can kite back to your base with stalkers, and if you kill all the mines Terran isn't left over with much and there's a chance to kill them right back.
I think the things we're seeing right now are simply because people aren't used to handling the unit or didn't play brood war. In 2-3 weeks I think it'll be more uncommon to see Terrans doing the mine walk to the front of your base because it's way too predictable and those are the only units for Terran on the map around that time.
On October 10 2012 11:30 Zykor wrote: It lowers the skill cap for terran players. They have a unit which is essentially unmicro-able because of the forced auto-cast. It is a unit that only requires three functions by the user: Build it, move it, burrow it. This makes the game easier for terran players. (not counting mirror matchups)
I don't see how, conceptually, that's different than spider mines, and players still have to practice good mine placement. The autocast prevents you from selecting a target, sure, but it also prevents a Terran player from getting the most potential out of the unit, and it also ensures that Zerg or Protoss players can bait out the mine's attack using a cheap unit. Thus, the autocast has an additional counter built into it intrinsically; whether or not you think this is sufficient is a different conversation to have.
Also, the mines have potential to help lockdown an avenue of approach, which is a role siege tanks have trouble filling relative to BW. And in BW, locking down an area with a few siege tanks and mines wasn't necessarily easy to deal with either, and neither siege tanks, nor spider mines had to be manually controlled in order to fulfill this role.
On October 10 2012 11:30 Zykor wrote: As it makes the game easier for terran players, it makes it slightly more difficult for protoss and zerg players. Non-terrans are forced to build more detectors and be more active with them to spot the mines. And because widow mines can attack cloaked flying units, they can destroy any observer that flies within range. (not sure if it one hit kills overseers) Basically terrans can afford to do less and protoss and zerg are forced to do more.
I don't think that this is necessarily a bad thing. Not every strategy is as easy to execute as its counter in Starcraft 2, and what matters is how it affects balance as a whole. I think punishing players for not practicing good army positioning and situational awareness is good for the game, and I think the argument should revolve around what level of punishment is acceptable, rather than if such a mechanic should exist at all.
I was wondering if it would be useful if widow mines had to be toggled whether they attacked air/ground. Meaning if I have a bunch in my base set on air, as soon as units are dropped down they are unaffected. It could give mech play (a bit) more micro, as well as more position involved with setting up widow mines.
Also how do carriers do against vikings? Anyone have numbers for how many vikings are required for x amount of unupgraded carriers? If they really are the counter to the new HoTS terran mech then they should be able to handle a decent amount of vikings. This might allow the tempest to go back to an anti light air to air splash unit like it was in alpha (although that may be wishful thinking from me)
On October 10 2012 14:43 ButteryBoo wrote: I was wondering if it would be useful if widow mines had to be toggled whether they attacked air/ground. Meaning if I have a bunch in my base set on air, as soon as units are dropped down they are unaffected. It could give mech play (a bit) more micro, as well as more position involved with setting up widow mines.
Also how do carriers do against vikings? Anyone have numbers for how many vikings are required for x amount of unupgraded carriers? If they really are the counter to the new HoTS terran mech then they should be able to handle a decent amount of vikings. This might allow the tempest to go back to an anti light air to air splash unit like it was in alpha (although that may be wishful thinking from me)
I have seen some replays of the widow mine on TvsZ in pro games and i think is a banneling with biggest damage and who doesn't dies when it hits for 25 more cristals and attacks to the air, and don't even need to move... I think it should be nerfed and probably it would be done, because HoTS is on beta, or at least I hope so, it seems strong against every unit. I hope blizzard do something to this retarded unit
On February 04 2013 08:18 tyranolol wrote: I have seen some replays of the widow mine on TvsZ in pro games and i think is a banneling with biggest damage and who doesn't dies when it hits for 25 more cristals and attacks to the air, and don't even need to move... I think it should be nerfed and probably it would be done, because HoTS is on beta, or at least I hope so, it seems strong against every unit. I hope blizzard do something to this retarded unit
Are you really serious about this? You bump a several months old thread, which was created like 4-6 patches ago to post this entirely baseless argument? Comparing Mines to Banes is just stupid. Call me when you can morph your Marines into Mines and a-move then into your enemy once you detect a weakness.
EPT
