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Please remember the numbers on the Widow Mine aren't final.
We're currently in the process of discussing how and where to position the unit as well as the counters to it.
Things we're thinking are:
We want Widow Mine to be an awesome new unit for Terran that's difficult for other races to deal with.
If Protoss needs more options - mothership core gets some sort of soft detection instead of oracle.
If Zerg needs more detection early - remove the evo requirement for spore crawlers
-Dustin Browder
Sounds like Widow Mine's counters will be buffed (they're thinking about it anyways). So a possibility indirectly nerfing the Widow Mines (by buffing their counters) rather than directly nerfing them.
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they have not figured out a way to deal with it. Exciting. I hope so.. its not a core unit yet, it needs to get buff. YOu the man dustin!
This explains it all, watch at your discretion.
LINK 1: 4:38 probe attacks mine ( hey it has a lot of HPs, I BET a lot of probes will beable to kill it before it burrows !)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/88353768@N02/8072174153/in/photostream
LINK 2: 4:40 can't kill it lets clump them together and run away!1!!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/88353768@N02/8072175111/in/photostream
LINK 3: 4:41 10 probes die ( wonder why?)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/88353768@N02/8072170632/in/photostream
LINK 4: 20 secs later.. imba..
http://www.flickr.com/photos/88353768@N02/8072175587/in/photostream
Profit? Is this imba or stupidity?
I just barely did it on my stream and more to come...
On October 10 2012 06:57 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +Please remember the numbers on the Widow Mine aren't final.
We're currently in the process of discussing how and where to position the unit as well as the counters to it.
Things we're thinking are:
We want Widow Mine to be an awesome new unit for Terran that's difficult for other races to deal with.
If Protoss needs more options - mothership core gets some sort of soft detection instead of oracle.
If Zerg needs more detection early - remove the evo requirement for spore crawlers -Dustin BrowderSounds like Widow Mine's counters will be buffed (they're thinking about it anyways). So a possibility indirectly nerfing the Widow Mines (by buffing their counters) rather than directly nerfing them.
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On October 10 2012 07:00 PrideTV wrote:they have not figured out a way to deal with it. Exciting. I hope so.. its not a core unit yet, it needs to get buff. YOu the man dustin! This explains it all, watch at your discretion. LINK 1: 4:38 probe attacks mine ( hey it has a lot of HPs, I BET a lot of probes will beable to kill it before it burrows !) http://www.flickr.com/photos/88353768@N02/8072174153/in/photostreamLINK 2: 4:40 can't kill it lets clump them together and run away!1!! http://www.flickr.com/photos/88353768@N02/8072175111/in/photostreamLINK 3: 4:41 10 probes die ( wonder why?) http://www.flickr.com/photos/88353768@N02/8072170632/in/photostreamLINK 4: 20 secs later.. imba.. http://www.flickr.com/photos/88353768@N02/8072175587/in/photostreamProfit? Is this imba or stupidity? I just barely did it on my stream and more to come... Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 06:57 SarcasmMonster wrote:Please remember the numbers on the Widow Mine aren't final.
We're currently in the process of discussing how and where to position the unit as well as the counters to it.
Things we're thinking are:
We want Widow Mine to be an awesome new unit for Terran that's difficult for other races to deal with.
If Protoss needs more options - mothership core gets some sort of soft detection instead of oracle.
If Zerg needs more detection early - remove the evo requirement for spore crawlers -Dustin BrowderSounds like Widow Mine's counters will be buffed (they're thinking about it anyways). So a possibility indirectly nerfing the Widow Mines (by buffing their counters) rather than directly nerfing them.
Yeah. I think they need to buff it significantly for it to be useful beyond rushes.
Something like its reload time reduced to 10s or sth.
It is retarded that they even consider balancing it around the early game. It should require an armory so that it is deployed later in the games and becomes a more accentuated mech unit, not a unit you spam out in the early game only to follow up with the usual MMM bullshit.
Buffing spore crawlers and MsC will nerf banshee openers. Terran already has that opener to punish detectionless greedy openers, we dont need more.
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Not sure if this idea has been thrown around at all but maybe widow mines could function in similar behavior to spider mines from BW, in that workers can not trigger the mines but if the workers are in range when the widow mine fires on an army unit, the workers can be killed by the splash damage. It would alleviate some of the problems being seen with using the widow mines to econ harass and people not being able to respond quickly!
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On October 10 2012 07:33 Inf-badguy wrote:
Not sure if this idea has been thrown around at all but maybe widow mines could function in similar behavior to spider mines from BW, in that workers can not trigger the mines but if the workers are in range when the widow mine fires on an army unit, the workers can be killed by the splash damage. It would alleviate some of the problems being seen with using the widow mines to econ harass and people not being able to respond quickly!
That's a great idea. Post it on the Bnet forums!
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Removing the Evo requirement for spores is a bit extreme isn't it? That'll have repercussions both in other scenarios where you want detection (DTs, Banshees) as well as emergency anti-air (Mutas, Phoenixes).
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On October 10 2012 07:40 Noahnao wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 07:33 Inf-badguy wrote:
Not sure if this idea has been thrown around at all but maybe widow mines could function in similar behavior to spider mines from BW, in that workers can not trigger the mines but if the workers are in range when the widow mine fires on an army unit, the workers can be killed by the splash damage. It would alleviate some of the problems being seen with using the widow mines to econ harass and people not being able to respond quickly! That's a great idea. Post it on the Bnet forums!
I wish I could.
If anyone does have beta access, I'd be happy if you could forward it along to one of the active widow mine threads; that is if it hasn't already been suggested.
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On October 10 2012 07:11 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 07:00 PrideTV wrote:they have not figured out a way to deal with it. Exciting. I hope so.. its not a core unit yet, it needs to get buff. YOu the man dustin! This explains it all, watch at your discretion. LINK 1: 4:38 probe attacks mine ( hey it has a lot of HPs, I BET a lot of probes will beable to kill it before it burrows !) http://www.flickr.com/photos/88353768@N02/8072174153/in/photostreamLINK 2: 4:40 can't kill it lets clump them together and run away!1!! http://www.flickr.com/photos/88353768@N02/8072175111/in/photostreamLINK 3: 4:41 10 probes die ( wonder why?) http://www.flickr.com/photos/88353768@N02/8072170632/in/photostreamLINK 4: 20 secs later.. imba.. http://www.flickr.com/photos/88353768@N02/8072175587/in/photostreamProfit? Is this imba or stupidity? I just barely did it on my stream and more to come... On October 10 2012 06:57 SarcasmMonster wrote:Please remember the numbers on the Widow Mine aren't final.
We're currently in the process of discussing how and where to position the unit as well as the counters to it.
Things we're thinking are:
We want Widow Mine to be an awesome new unit for Terran that's difficult for other races to deal with.
If Protoss needs more options - mothership core gets some sort of soft detection instead of oracle.
If Zerg needs more detection early - remove the evo requirement for spore crawlers -Dustin BrowderSounds like Widow Mine's counters will be buffed (they're thinking about it anyways). So a possibility indirectly nerfing the Widow Mines (by buffing their counters) rather than directly nerfing them. Yeah. I think they need to buff it significantly for it to be useful beyond rushes. Something like its reload time reduced to 10s or sth. It is retarded that they even consider balancing it around the early game. It should require an armory so that it is deployed later in the games and becomes a more accentuated mech unit, not a unit you spam out in the early game only to follow up with the usual MMM bullshit. Buffing spore crawlers and MsC will nerf banshee openers. Terran already has that opener to punish detectionless greedy openers, we dont need more.
They should make widow mines require an armory and battle hellions not require it.
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On October 10 2012 07:41 archon256 wrote:
Removing the Evo requirement for spores is a bit extreme isn't it? That'll have repercussions both in other scenarios where you want detection (DTs, Banshees) as well as emergency anti-air (Mutas, Phoenixes).
well, in current pvz metagame dts hit the field late enough that an evo chamber is absolutely in play
banshee builds involving cloak border on cheese so even if i a 2port banshee vs zerg way more often than i should, it's not a build i would be sad to lose
moving overseers to hatchery tech makes more sense than spores having no requirements though
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On October 10 2012 07:40 Noahnao wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 07:33 Inf-badguy wrote:
Not sure if this idea has been thrown around at all but maybe widow mines could function in similar behavior to spider mines from BW, in that workers can not trigger the mines but if the workers are in range when the widow mine fires on an army unit, the workers can be killed by the splash damage. It would alleviate some of the problems being seen with using the widow mines to econ harass and people not being able to respond quickly! That's a great idea. Post it on the Bnet forums!
Don't waste your time not happen
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On October 10 2012 06:57 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +Please remember the numbers on the Widow Mine aren't final.
We're currently in the process of discussing how and where to position the unit as well as the counters to it.
Things we're thinking are:
We want Widow Mine to be an awesome new unit for Terran that's difficult for other races to deal with.
If Protoss needs more options - mothership core gets some sort of soft detection instead of oracle.
If Zerg needs more detection early - remove the evo requirement for spore crawlers -Dustin BrowderSounds like Widow Mine's counters will be buffed (they're thinking about it anyways). So a possibility indirectly nerfing the Widow Mines (by buffing their counters) rather than directly nerfing them.
If that spore crawler change goes through, that is gigantic with a capital g for the way cloakshees and DTs play out.
On October 10 2012 08:32 TheLunatic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 07:40 Noahnao wrote:On October 10 2012 07:33 Inf-badguy wrote:
Not sure if this idea has been thrown around at all but maybe widow mines could function in similar behavior to spider mines from BW, in that workers can not trigger the mines but if the workers are in range when the widow mine fires on an army unit, the workers can be killed by the splash damage. It would alleviate some of the problems being seen with using the widow mines to econ harass and people not being able to respond quickly! That's a great idea. Post it on the Bnet forums! Don't waste your time not happen
Well well. I guess someone is being a pessimist today.
It's completely possible that this idea could go through. Blizz keeps a very watchful eye on the HotS forums, after all.
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Since Pride seems so intent on posting his games, I'll just put this here:
http://drop.sc/262988
Ran into him on the beta ladder. Hilarity ensues.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
If Zerg needs more detection early - remove the evo requirement for spore crawlers
- Dustin Browder
Oh god, if they're going to do that, why not just give overlords detection again?
EDIT: It is nice to know they're BUFFING everything else though rather than nerfing things that although powerful are exciting.
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A lot of Zergs may be having trouble with the mine as well because they are playing standard greed and expecting to not have to scout or build any defense.
The warhound was similar in this respect, because Zerg usually had to build 1 spine against such aggression.
Zergs complaining about widow mines are the ones that think it's perfectly fine to drone up to 80 with only queens and no units. Newsflash: in HOTS there are things now that make it so you can't play greedy 100% of the time. Oracle entomb is similar - try and mass up to 80 drones no units and watch your minerals be entombed over and over again.
People need to realize doing the same thing you did in wings of liberty isn't necessarily going to work anymore. Or if it does, it's going to take a bit for people to develop the proper defense for certain things.
In 2-3 weeks, wait till you guys see how good tempests are and how common they will be in every match-up. I can guarantee you everyone will be complaining about tempests when they realize how good they can be. Same with vipers cloud thing.
And guess what? The new units should all be strong - welcome to 1998 spider mines, lurkers, dark swarm, corsairs...etc. Remember corsairs? You guys remember that? Those were terrible everyone said! Absolute trash!
Then later...oh mai gawd, dt corsair and corsairs become completely standard and incredibly strong! Initially vultures were thought to suck as well, especially in TvZ, and then years down the road vultures were used in TvZ with valkries as well.
This stuff did not happen after 3 days. Nor when these metagame changes occurred did people immediately find a counter in 3 days time.
Basically i'm saying, if you're going to complain (not saying i haven't before) make it about the design of the units rather than the balance. The warhound was poorly designed. The mothership core blizzard is still tinkering with the design. Balance is going to change repeatedly and is also dependent on the map pool, which hopefully blizzard changes very soon.
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this unit is OP for sure.
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On October 10 2012 09:41 Chrono000 wrote:
this unit is OP for sure.
Quite stimulating thoughts for this discussion. Thank you for the contribution to the forums and all of humanity. Let me help you out.
One thing i noticed from playing some PvTs is that observer detection range is quite small and that it requires extremely fine unit control to not lose observers. If you just 1A you can lose an obs if you're not paying attention.
They could introduce the observer sight range upgrade like the one in brood war and that would indirectly nerf the mine while keeping it a strong new unit.
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Its realistic not pessimistic
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On October 10 2012 09:45 TheLunatic wrote:
Its realistic not pessimistic
Yeah, that's what everyone calls themselves...
May I note that there are many changes offered by the players, not to mention the huge change on the Widow Mine which we are currently discussing? (Here) It was even thought of by someone who is not a progamer. What's to say that Blizz won't take another suggestion?
Anyways, back to the topic at hand.
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On October 10 2012 09:44 avilo wrote:Quite stimulating thoughts for this discussion. Thank you for the contribution to the forums and all of humanity. Let me help you out. One thing i noticed from playing some PvTs is that observer detection range is quite small and that it requires extremely fine unit control to not lose observers. If you just 1A you can lose an obs if you're not paying attention.They could introduce the observer sight range upgrade like the one in brood war and that would indirectly nerf the mine while keeping it a strong new unit.
Exactly, I have no idea why they didn't have an observer range upgrade in the game from the get go. I would get it every time I survive into midgame. It would also be useful against terrans because you would actually be able to spy on their army without necessarily losing it to a quick scan. And vs zerg, with the new swarm host and tempest being introduced, this upgrade would be very appreciated by tosses.
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IMO,
giving soft detection to MsC is a good idea,
removing the Evo requirement for Spores is a bad idea.
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EPT
