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Look, I'm high diamond in WOL because I out think my opponents. My macro is meh, my micro is decent, and my build orders are really loose and usually not well tailored to what I end up going. I play high level competitive chess and am studying game theory- that's my basis for this essay. This is not an idle complaint- HOTS PvT is broken. My honest opinion is that a perfectly playing Toss, against a perfectly playing Terran, is just playing rock-paper-scissors. You have to get lucky and guess correctly what he's going to do with that gas. You have to GUESS. A terran just rotating between hellion-drop, quick stim push, and widow-drop should theoretically win 66% of the time, just straight up. The necessary responses from Toss are too different, and Toss tech switches and early gas usage too high, to defend all 3 well.
keep yourself out of the arguements, especially if your trying to claim that its a purely factual, non emotional post.
If you keep your units spread they can only kill a single unit every 40 seconds. You aren't powerless to a mine in your minerals.. It will probably do damage, but its the protoss' fault for letting it get into the mineral line. There isn't a perfect save against a DT that gets in. there shouldn't be for a widow mine. It's all mitigatable.
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On October 08 2012 05:20 Warpath wrote:Show nested quote +Look, I'm high diamond in WOL because I out think my opponents. My macro is meh, my micro is decent, and my build orders are really loose and usually not well tailored to what I end up going. I play high level competitive chess and am studying game theory- that's my basis for this essay. This is not an idle complaint- HOTS PvT is broken. My honest opinion is that a perfectly playing Toss, against a perfectly playing Terran, is just playing rock-paper-scissors. You have to get lucky and guess correctly what he's going to do with that gas. You have to GUESS. A terran just rotating between hellion-drop, quick stim push, and widow-drop should theoretically win 66% of the time, just straight up. The necessary responses from Toss are too different, and Toss tech switches and early gas usage too high, to defend all 3 well. keep yourself out of the arguements, especially if your trying to claim that its a purely factual, non emotional post. If you keep your units spread they can only kill a single unit every 40 seconds. You aren't powerless to a mine in your minerals.. It will probably do damage, but its the protoss' fault for letting it get into the mineral line. There isn't a perfect save against a DT that gets in. there shouldn't be for a widow mine. It's all mitigatable.
I disagree with most of the OP, but you can't compare a cloaked unit that comes really late with a unit that comes from reactored factory.
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On October 08 2012 05:02 GinDo wrote:
Here's a fix. When the Widow Mine Shots it's missle, it reveals itself for a short while, Giving the Protoss a quick second to be able to disable the mine without the need for detection. However, Protoss have to have lightning reflexes in order to do so.
Much like how Protoss would eliminate Spiders pre-Obs in BW.
This is actually a good idea.
Another would be to make it cheaper in terms of supply/cost (or even the re-arming time) but making it so that not only it reveals itself when it attacks but also its projectile can also be taken out.
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On October 08 2012 04:14 iS.Axslav wrote:
what's kinda annoying is if you expand 30 food or later they can plant a widow mine at your nat and you can't take it until you get an observer. Before the patch you could just run a probe into it but now it seems you have to rush expo (and be semi-vulnerable to window mine rushes into your main mineral line) or be content to be behind on macro.
Can't you stop the widow mine from getting to your natural with your initial stalkers? I have to say I haven't played against this yet, but it seems like it shouldn't be too hard.
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I dont like mines auto killing cloaked units without detection, I mean, at the same time while blocking sneak attack paths with them, even cloaked units cant do shit, and without a single drop of detection
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On October 08 2012 05:35 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 04:14 iS.Axslav wrote:
what's kinda annoying is if you expand 30 food or later they can plant a widow mine at your nat and you can't take it until you get an observer. Before the patch you could just run a probe into it but now it seems you have to rush expo (and be semi-vulnerable to window mine rushes into your main mineral line) or be content to be behind on macro. Can't you stop the widow mine from getting to your natural with your initial stalkers? I have to say I haven't played against this yet, but it seems like it shouldn't be too hard.
At 90 health, it takes 10 shots from 1 stalker, 5 shots from 2 to kill a widow mine. With the 2 second burrow time and the stalkers 1.44 attack rate, they can only fire once before it burrows. If you're lucky and see the mine before it burrows you might get a second volley off, but as mentioned it's still not enough to kill it, even with 3 stalkers you need 3 shots per stalker from the 3 stalkers before it dies. And needless to say zealots and sentries won't help any more in killing them.
As an aside, I think part of the problem is also that the splash damage is 40, as this is exactly enough to kill probes and drones en masse.
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On October 08 2012 05:36 MerdaPura wrote:
I dont like mines auto killing cloaked units without detection, I mean, at the same time while blocking sneak attack paths with them, even cloaked units cant do shit, and without a single drop of detection
I agree, this is kind of stupid. Only reason i liked mines attacking cloaked units is because fast DT or Lurker was super painful without an acadamy or Ebay.
Seems a lot less justified with scans being available in almost 100% of games
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Widow mines are just incredibly retarded now. How the gell toss can destroy mines with sieged tanks behind. Also, mines just destroyed build diversity of protoss. No fast expo, no gateways opening. The fix is, after shooting missile, widow mine should have a minimum 6-7 second reburrow time, so they are actually possibly to destroy.
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On October 08 2012 04:34 Serenity12 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 03:16 TennesseeNA wrote:
As I posted in the HOTS Beta forum at Blizzard-
I'm essentially trying to sum up all the problems the widow mines create in PvT. Let me know what you all think.
My thread got locked for "emotional feedback" where there was none.
I think I made a very legitimate point- if I see an early gas on terran, I cannot literally defend all of his options anymore. If he goes for a quick stim push, that's stoppable. If he goes for hellion drop, that's stoppable. If he goes for widow mines, that's stoppable.
But I'm locked out from his base once that first marine pops, until I manage to get observers. And I fail to see how I can defend all three of those main options the terran has without scouting before my first observer pops. Even if I test his front with the usual stalker-zealot, I still don't have enough information.
Is the widow mine OP as well? Yes. But it wouldn't be so bad if I could actually get an observer out before he's already building them. Then I just toss down a cannon in both mineral lines, put my probes in a hotkey group, and be ready to pull them if he drops.
My complaint was that the SPEED with which the widow mine pops, and the near impossibility of me scouting after my probe leaves, and the multiple options a terran has off of a quick gas essentially make it impossible for me to defend everything. He HAS to screw up in some way (revealing his hand too early, letting me run by stalkers, etc.) for me to handle PvT early game.
And the worst thing is that even if I know he's dropping widows, even if I build a cannon (because if you just leave an observer around, it dies instantly) I have to respond INSTANTLY to not lose 10+ probes on a saturated base.
So toss got a cute little lockdown from the Oracle that just stops mining for 45 seconds, AT BEST, but like 5-10 against a high level player, and terran got a unit that, at worst, makes me spend like 300 per base on static defense and/or observers and still probably lose 10+ probes, and even if I pull instantly, I lose more time mining than what any Oracle I have does against him.
So yeah. Call my criticism emotional. But the widow mine is so OP its just kind of absurd.
Oh, and if I throw down a cannon against a terran rushing widow mines, and then he just switches into MMM and drops with medivacs, the cannon is totally useless, AND I have to rebuild the cannon in case he deices to drop widow mines next time.
You see my point? Widow mines are unbalanced because the response they necessitate is so useless against other terran harassment options, and it makes the early game an incredible, almost unmanageable strain, on Protoss.
Look, either buff slightly protoss early game and give us another detection option that the widow mine doesn't smash to pieces, because throwing down cannons in my base just does nothing if he then switches to MMM. And if he knows I cannoned, he can just post his two widow mines at his front and in the middle of his production lines (and then rotate them around his base at intervals) and if I'm not checking my observer every thirty seconds, POOF, there goes all my scouting info.
Seriously, this isn't emotional feedback. This is just pure gameplay analysis. Dealing with MMM drops w/o blink was already difficult enough, and now he has a unit that requires an entirely different response to defend, AND if used well can essentially deny all my scouting? I even had a game where the guy just rushed 4 widow mines, and then stutter walked the pairs up my front lol. If I tried to attack while they were burrowing, poof goes all my zealots. If I try to just attack with my stalkers, they don't do enough damage to kill them, and then I have to wait for my observer, while he takes his natural and I'm bottled up in my base.
Basically I'm reduced to rushing a MSc and a bunch of stalkers and using high ground vision to hit his base that way. Of course, if he just plays it cool, pulls his units back and lets me snipe a couple of depots, and waits for the widow mines to pop, I have to pull back and now I've got like 8 stalkers, a MSc, no sentries, and no zealots (such a great unit comp if he goes MMM right? Sarcasm, fyi).
Look, I'm high diamond in WOL because I out think my opponents. My macro is meh, my micro is decent, and my build orders are really loose and usually not well tailored to what I end up going. I play high level competitive chess and am studying game theory- that's my basis for this essay. This is not an idle complaint- HOTS PvT is broken. My honest opinion is that a perfectly playing Toss, against a perfectly playing Terran, is just playing rock-paper-scissors. You have to get lucky and guess correctly what he's going to do with that gas. You have to GUESS. A terran just rotating between hellion-drop, quick stim push, and widow-drop should theoretically win 66% of the time, just straight up. The necessary responses from Toss are too different, and Toss tech switches and early gas usage too high, to defend all 3 well.
Anyways, lock me again if you like? I figured the purpose of HOTS beta was to get detailed feeback on the matchup problems and balancing issues. That's what I'm giving- Toss has too long a period where they can't scout (so we have to build in the dark), too high gas usage (I need sentries against stim-push, but lots of early gas for robo and chronoed observers+ stalkers against widow), and almost no ability to "re-orient" tech (not enough gas on one base to even attempt a tech switch, too long a build time on Nexus not to be behind substantially against a Terran tech switch [like widow drop into MMM]), and one of our vision options, the observer, can get sniped by widows (and, as I pointed out, cannons are a giant waste of minerals against MMM and will die instantly to stim-drop) (and then have to be rebuilt anyways because he can just drop widows the next time).
This match-up is basically broken right now. End. of. Story. If a blizz rep wants to come have a dialogue with me, either in here or via messaging/email, I would love to hear another side to the debate. Maybe they think MSc use+Stalker rush (the only thing I have success with right now) is the counter to one basing Terran. If anyone wants to take Blizzard's side of the debate, I'd love to hear that too. I'm not claiming I'm 100% right, but I haven't heard a single argument from a blizz rep, or even another player, that PvT is a balanced matchup in HOTS.
Anyways, looking forward to the next patch, and seeing what changes get made. I still think the Oracle is fairly useless (mainly because of the necessity of detection in both PvT and PvZ right now) and I honestly haven't used a tempest once (I play gateway expand pressure builds against zerg, so I either win or lose by the time they're relevant). 1. Its a beta test for a reason. They are testing the new widow mine concept where it burrows and attacks every 40 seconds. They can easily tweak the damage numbers to balance this. 2. You should try getting faster robo 3. You do sound emotional, so I think they made the right call in locking your thread
^ This sums up my thoughts about 3-4paragraphs in
EDIT: In other words stop the QQ about OP widow mines. They will tweak down every patch or find alternatives until they are satisfied with the result or if not they will take it out like the warhound or change it completely like they did TWO FREAKING DAYS AGO.
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Unemotional post = "Problem: Reason: Solution:"
Emotional post = a huge wall of text, waffling about what league you're in and why this has ruined your life.
Good God man, get a grip!
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It's been out for a day. Give it some time. Of course there are issues with it - It's been out for a single day. And it's an unusual unit that will take time to correct for all the problems it creates, so you might deal with some frustration for a while, that's what the beta is for.
Relax.
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On October 08 2012 04:00 alexanderzero wrote:
I remember people saying stuff like "oh it's impossible to defend against terran because you can't scout their base early on" in Starcraft 2. Do you people really have this short of a memory? People are leveling all of the same whiny, made up complaints about the game now that they did before...
As soon as any option becomes viable for any race there is bound to be shit loads of QQ from the opposing races
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On October 08 2012 06:22 RoberP wrote:
Unemotional post = "Problem: Reason: Solution:"
Emotional post = a huge wall of text, waffling about what league you're in and why this has ruined your life.
Good God man, get a grip!
Sound advice.......bravo
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On October 08 2012 05:35 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 04:14 iS.Axslav wrote:
what's kinda annoying is if you expand 30 food or later they can plant a widow mine at your nat and you can't take it until you get an observer. Before the patch you could just run a probe into it but now it seems you have to rush expo (and be semi-vulnerable to window mine rushes into your main mineral line) or be content to be behind on macro. Can't you stop the widow mine from getting to your natural with your initial stalkers? I have to say I haven't played against this yet, but it seems like it shouldn't be too hard.
Simple answer is no. It can burrow faster than two stalkers can ff it down. Not only that but if they wait until they have two they can burrow and then you are forced to withdraw or you lose two stalkers as they are one shotted.
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They seem to burrow incredible fast.
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I don't see why if Terran goes factory before expand, it's unreasonable for Protoss to one gate robo expand to get an obs. In theory obviously.
Also alexanderzero's post is completely right. Back in the time of 1-1-1 there were dozens of "you can't reliably scout a Terran so you can never beat them" posts all over teamliquid an screddit. This post is emotional, whoever locked your last thread did the right thing.
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Anyways, lock me again if you like?
Is this not analogous to martyring?
And yeah, it seems OP, but give it time
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On October 08 2012 05:59 XenoX101 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 05:35 Pursuit_ wrote:On October 08 2012 04:14 iS.Axslav wrote:
what's kinda annoying is if you expand 30 food or later they can plant a widow mine at your nat and you can't take it until you get an observer. Before the patch you could just run a probe into it but now it seems you have to rush expo (and be semi-vulnerable to window mine rushes into your main mineral line) or be content to be behind on macro. Can't you stop the widow mine from getting to your natural with your initial stalkers? I have to say I haven't played against this yet, but it seems like it shouldn't be too hard. At 90 health, it takes 10 shots from 1 stalker, 5 shots from 2 to kill a widow mine. With the 2 second burrow time and the stalkers 1.44 attack rate, they can only fire once before it burrows. If you're lucky and see the mine before it burrows you might get a second volley off, but as mentioned it's still not enough to kill it, even with 3 stalkers you need 3 shots per stalker from the 3 stalkers before it dies. And needless to say zealots and sentries won't help any more in killing them. As an aside, I think part of the problem is also that the splash damage is 40, as this is exactly enough to kill probes and drones en masse.
Yeah, but your stalkers will have all the way from the Terran's base to your base to kite them if you're doing a standard zealot / stalker poke. This is definitely doable. Although I agree that 90 hp seems a bit high, something like 60 might be more reasonable.
I'm pretty sure the splash damage was buffed to 60 in a previous patch. But honestly I don't see how this is a problem, with decent control that's 1 probe / drone / scv every 40 seconds until detection is out IF it gets into your mineral line.
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On October 08 2012 09:18 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 05:59 XenoX101 wrote:On October 08 2012 05:35 Pursuit_ wrote:On October 08 2012 04:14 iS.Axslav wrote:
what's kinda annoying is if you expand 30 food or later they can plant a widow mine at your nat and you can't take it until you get an observer. Before the patch you could just run a probe into it but now it seems you have to rush expo (and be semi-vulnerable to window mine rushes into your main mineral line) or be content to be behind on macro. Can't you stop the widow mine from getting to your natural with your initial stalkers? I have to say I haven't played against this yet, but it seems like it shouldn't be too hard. At 90 health, it takes 10 shots from 1 stalker, 5 shots from 2 to kill a widow mine. With the 2 second burrow time and the stalkers 1.44 attack rate, they can only fire once before it burrows. If you're lucky and see the mine before it burrows you might get a second volley off, but as mentioned it's still not enough to kill it, even with 3 stalkers you need 3 shots per stalker from the 3 stalkers before it dies. And needless to say zealots and sentries won't help any more in killing them. As an aside, I think part of the problem is also that the splash damage is 40, as this is exactly enough to kill probes and drones en masse. Yeah, but your stalkers will have all the way from the Terran's base to your base to kite them if you're doing a standard zealot / stalker poke. This is definitely doable. Although I agree that 90 hp seems a bit high, something like 60 might be more reasonable. I'm pretty sure the splash damage was buffed to 60 in a previous patch. But honestly I don't see how this is a problem, with decent control that's 1 probe / drone / scv every 40 seconds until detection is out IF it gets into your mineral line.
edit: sorry for double post, meant to edit and hit quote instead >.<
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On October 08 2012 05:59 XenoX101 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 05:35 Pursuit_ wrote:On October 08 2012 04:14 iS.Axslav wrote:
what's kinda annoying is if you expand 30 food or later they can plant a widow mine at your nat and you can't take it until you get an observer. Before the patch you could just run a probe into it but now it seems you have to rush expo (and be semi-vulnerable to window mine rushes into your main mineral line) or be content to be behind on macro. Can't you stop the widow mine from getting to your natural with your initial stalkers? I have to say I haven't played against this yet, but it seems like it shouldn't be too hard. At 90 health, it takes 10 shots from 1 stalker, 5 shots from 2 to kill a widow mine. With the 2 second burrow time and the stalkers 1.44 attack rate, they can only fire once before it burrows. If you're lucky and see the mine before it burrows you might get a second volley off, but as mentioned it's still not enough to kill it, even with 3 stalkers you need 3 shots per stalker from the 3 stalkers before it dies. And needless to say zealots and sentries won't help any more in killing them. As an aside, I think part of the problem is also that the splash damage is 40, as this is exactly enough to kill probes and drones en masse.
Omg I had no idea that they had 90hp. That's messed up! I thought they had some reasonable amount of health like 50.
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EPT
