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On September 18 2012 01:56 Spinoza wrote:
Make the Extended Thermal Lance a siege upgrade. This will make it more taxing to use and reduce the deathball syndrome.
edit: leave everything else as is, ie you can still walk it, but not with extended range which will only be available when in siege mode thus making it behave similar to siege tanks.
I wish people could just understand one thing, as what I've said is on the last like 3 pages. THE COLOSSUS IS NOT IMBALANCED. What you are proposing is a nerf, and ultimately you are saying that IT IS IMBALANCED. This is not the case and as such no nerfs are required. Besides your suggestion is absolutely terrible, colossus would not be effective against Vikings without being behind your army, and this requires CONSTANT movement of trying to pull Vikings in, micro your hurt colossi to save them, etc. Same goes for ZvP. Without constantly being mobile. On creep your going to get decimated by the speed of the Zerg army.
As for the other guys suggestion about making them not targetable by air in exchange for another nerf, Vikings were designed around colossus specifically. If you want to have them also rework Vikings, and possibly even corruptors. Then ultimately after all the compensation was made it would still be a nerf. This is why this thread is so damn stupid, everyone (including the OP) is just using their bias against colossi to suggest some nerfs that aren't justified and would require a complete rework of other mechanics to even have them make sense even if the nerf WAS justifiable. Please guys like I said the colossus is not imbalanced, people consider it BORING. There is a very huge difference between these 2 things. So if you want any of your suggestions to be taken seriously, then make it a change that isnt a nerf. But rather simply a change (but keep in mind for it to make sense it can't conflict with other units balance and design). Oh wait, the colossus is so deeply imbedded in design that that's virtually impossible. See why this is going no where?
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On September 18 2012 03:28 Berailfor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 01:56 Spinoza wrote:
Make the Extended Thermal Lance a siege upgrade. This will make it more taxing to use and reduce the deathball syndrome.
edit: leave everything else as is, ie you can still walk it, but not with extended range which will only be available when in siege mode thus making it behave similar to siege tanks.
I wish people could just understand one thing, as what I've said is on the last like 3 pages. THE COLOSSUS IS NOT IMBALANCED. What you are proposing is a nerf, and ultimately you are saying that IT IS IMBALANCED. This is not the case and as such no nerfs are required. Besides your suggestion is absolutely terrible, colossus would not be effective against Vikings without being behind your army, and this requires CONSTANT movement of trying to pull Vikings in, micro your hurt colossi to save them, etc. Same goes for ZvP. Without constantly being mobile. On creep your going to get decimated by the speed of the Zerg army. As for the other guys suggestion about making them not targetable by air in exchange for another nerf, Vikings were designed around colossus specifically. If you want to have them also rework Vikings, and possibly even corruptors. Then ultimately after all the compensation was made it would still be a nerf. This is why this thread is so damn stupid, everyone (including the OP) is just using their bias against colossi to suggest some nerfs that aren't justified and would require a complete rework of other mechanics to even have them make sense even if the nerf WAS justifiable. Please guys like I said the colossus is not imbalanced, people consider it BORING. There is a very huge difference between these 2 things. So if you want any of your suggestions to be taken seriously, then make it a change that isnt a nerf. But rather simply a change (but keep in mind for it to make sense it can't conflict with other units balance and design). Oh wait, the colossus is so deeply imbedded in design that that's virtually impossible. See why this is going no where?
I couldnt agree more.
You can propose little tweaks to the colossus (more micro to keep it alive in a trade off for some health or small tweaks to how it exactly attacks, like more damage per shot less dps) but fundamentally the colossus will and [u]should[\u] stay the same.
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colossus is fine and i like it changing it in any way other than buff would hurt my protoss heart, most hated unit and other polls are all zerg and terran votes
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On September 15 2012 19:10 gedatsu wrote:
The problem with colossus is not the size, the vulnerability to anti-air, the speed, the fact that it does a lot of splash, the fact that it can walk over units and cliffs, or anything of that sort. In fact, the speed, the splash and the walking over thing are all good things that encourage micro. We want things that are better when microed.
The problem is the horizontal direction of the splash damage. Because that is exactly how the enemy units automatically position themselves when they try to attack it. The colossus doesn't have to micro - the enemy does it for him!
What we want is a colossus that can walk freely over the battlefield, but only does high damage when you manage to position it correctly. Speed and cliff/unit walk are two things that will let the colossus do exactly this. What we need to change is where the splash damage lands. Imagine if colossus did damage in a straight line from itself, like a lurker. It would still be able to kill a lot of marines, but only when you're able to flank them. Taking them on head on will be highly inefficient.
Or if the colossus did splash like a big X on the ground. Only the center portion of bad guys would take damage from both beams, and most of the units lining up will stand safely between the two lines. You'd have to move the colossus a bit to the side to make it shoot more targets.
This is how you fix the colossus.
Been saying this one forever. It deserves to be repeated.
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On September 18 2012 03:28 Berailfor wrote:
As for the other guys suggestion about making them not targetable by air in exchange for another nerf, Vikings were designed around colossus specifically. If you want to have them also rework Vikings, and possibly even corruptors. Then ultimately after all the compensation was made it would still be a nerf. This is why this thread is so damn stupid, everyone (including the OP) is just using their bias against colossi to suggest some nerfs that aren't justified and would require a complete rework of other mechanics to even have them make sense even if the nerf WAS justifiable. Please guys like I said the colossus is not imbalanced, people consider it BORING. There is a very huge difference between these 2 things. So if you want any of your suggestions to be taken seriously, then make it a change that isnt a nerf. But rather simply a change (but keep in mind for it to make sense it can't conflict with other units balance and design). Oh wait, the colossus is so deeply imbedded in design that that's virtually impossible. See why this is going no where?
But this is EXACTLY the problem. Because the other races ANTI-AIR is designed around killing the colossus, the entire protoss armada is useless!
Vikings and corruptors should be balanced around the rest of the air units in the game, not around killing the colossus.
I don't consider the colossus imba. I don't think it inheritly needs a nerf. I just want sky-toss to be a viable proposition and it's not because of the colossus.
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How about adding a blind angle for their attack so that units that get close to it cannot be attacked? Same thing as with Siege Tank only perhaps even more so. Their ability to shoot underneath themselves is silly anyways.
EDIT: this might actually fix PvP too as zealots would become much more efficient versus colossi.
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On September 18 2012 12:06 Kharnage wrote:
But this is EXACTLY the problem. Because the other races ANTI-AIR is designed around killing the colossus, the entire protoss armada is useless!
Vikings and corruptors should be balanced around the rest of the air units in the game, not around killing the colossus.
I don't consider the colossus imba. I don't think it inheritly needs a nerf. I just want sky-toss to be a viable proposition and it's not because of the colossus.
True enough. Colossus is THE reason why toss air sucks because T/Z's air have to counter colossus.
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I'm shocked terrans are okay with the idea of the reaver re-appearing. Did you never see BW videos showing one scarab one-shot 8 hydras? If you ball up your units for one second, a scarab will one-shot 20 marines. I'd just bring two warp prisms with reavers and drop them flanking your army... Believe me, I'd love using the reaver...
I can see it now... drop two reavers in your mineral line from a speed prism... kill every single SCV in two volleys... move on to your next base...
Or, bring my first reaver to break your bunker + expansion... you can't repair since a single scarab will one-shot all repairing SCVs, in addition to doing > 100 damage to the bunker... You can't run out to attack me, since you'll lose a dozen units to the first scarab before reaching me...
Or, siege your planetary with a couple of reavers... You can't repair without losing all of your SCVs in a volley or two...
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On September 18 2012 13:01 trbot wrote:
I'm shocked terrans are okay with the idea of the reaver re-appearing. Did you never see BW videos showing one scarab one-shot 8 hydras? If you ball up your units for one second, a scarab will one-shot 20 marines. I'd just bring two warp prisms with reavers and drop them flanking your army... Believe me, I'd love using the reaver...
The Reaver would be nerfed to oblivion because of the new pathing engine.
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On September 18 2012 13:03 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 13:01 trbot wrote:
I'm shocked terrans are okay with the idea of the reaver re-appearing. Did you never see BW videos showing one scarab one-shot 8 hydras? If you ball up your units for one second, a scarab will one-shot 20 marines. I'd just bring two warp prisms with reavers and drop them flanking your army... Believe me, I'd love using the reaver...
The Reaver would be nerfed to oblivion because of the new pathing engine.
It'll have to be strong enough to replace the colossus, or protoss players will fail in PvT. That tells me it'll still have to do serious burst damage, since its rate of fire is substantially lower than the colossus'... Either way it'll have to be as potent a threat as the colossus, and I won't even have to worry about it being vulnerable to air...
You have to admit that it's also -far- more amenable to worker harrass, by design.
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I voted for Collosus because it replaced the reaver which was an extremely fun unit to use. Not because of the overly exaggerated problems people bring up.
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On September 18 2012 03:28 Berailfor wrote:
As for the other guys suggestion about making them not targetable by air in exchange for another nerf, Vikings were designed around colossus specifically. If you want to have them also rework Vikings, and possibly even corruptors. Then ultimately after all the compensation was made it would still be a nerf.
And you don't think there will be a compensation on Stargate? As it is I never use Stargate against Terrans and rarely against Zerg. Sure Colossus is deeply rooted in core balance currently, and I do not believe a drastic change just to make the unit more "exciting" is a good idea.
But I'd like to think there will be a way to gradually change the Colossus' role by the time LotV hits. It's so tedious to having to rely upon the damn thing just to get out of my base.
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On September 18 2012 13:27 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 03:28 Berailfor wrote:
As for the other guys suggestion about making them not targetable by air in exchange for another nerf, Vikings were designed around colossus specifically. If you want to have them also rework Vikings, and possibly even corruptors. Then ultimately after all the compensation was made it would still be a nerf. And you don't think there will be a compensation on Stargate? As it is I never use Stargate against Terrans and rarely against Zerg. Sure Colossus is deeply rooted in core balance currently, and I do not believe a drastic change just to make the unit more "exciting" is a good idea. But I'd like to think there will be a way to gradually change the Colossus' role by the time LotV hits. It's so tedious to having to rely upon the damn thing just to get out of my base.
That's why i'm opening with storm 
But it's stupid that protoss can't tech switch from robo to stargate, even by suprise the way they can from robo to templar tech. Every terran should immediately build a ghost acadamy as soon as they have 5 vikings because it's the only place protoss have left to go.
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On September 15 2012 19:10 gedatsu wrote:
The problem with colossus is not the size, the vulnerability to anti-air, the speed, the fact that it does a lot of splash, the fact that it can walk over units and cliffs, or anything of that sort. In fact, the speed, the splash and the walking over thing are all good things that encourage micro. We want things that are better when microed.
The problem is the horizontal direction of the splash damage. Because that is exactly how the enemy units automatically position themselves when they try to attack it. The colossus doesn't have to micro - the enemy does it for him!
What we want is a colossus that can walk freely over the battlefield, but only does high damage when you manage to position it correctly. Speed and cliff/unit walk are two things that will let the colossus do exactly this. What we need to change is where the splash damage lands. Imagine if colossus did damage in a straight line from itself, like a lurker. It would still be able to kill a lot of marines, but only when you're able to flank them. Taking them on head on will be highly inefficient.
Or if the colossus did splash like a big X on the ground. Only the center portion of bad guys would take damage from both beams, and most of the units lining up will stand safely between the two lines. You'd have to move the colossus a bit to the side to make it shoot more targets.
This is how you fix the colossus.
that sounded beautiful :D
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On September 15 2012 19:10 gedatsu wrote:
The problem with colossus is not the size, the vulnerability to anti-air, the speed, the fact that it does a lot of splash, the fact that it can walk over units and cliffs, or anything of that sort. In fact, the speed, the splash and the walking over thing are all good things that encourage micro. We want things that are better when microed.
The problem is the horizontal direction of the splash damage. Because that is exactly how the enemy units automatically position themselves when they try to attack it. The colossus doesn't have to micro - the enemy does it for him!
What we want is a colossus that can walk freely over the battlefield, but only does high damage when you manage to position it correctly. Speed and cliff/unit walk are two things that will let the colossus do exactly this. What we need to change is where the splash damage lands. Imagine if colossus did damage in a straight line from itself, like a lurker. It would still be able to kill a lot of marines, but only when you're able to flank them. Taking them on head on will be highly inefficient.
Or if the colossus did splash like a big X on the ground. Only the center portion of bad guys would take damage from both beams, and most of the units lining up will stand safely between the two lines. You'd have to move the colossus a bit to the side to make it shoot more targets.
This is how you fix the colossus.
I agree! This sound fantastic!
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On September 18 2012 15:01 Alex1Sun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 19:10 gedatsu wrote:
The problem with colossus is not the size, the vulnerability to anti-air, the speed, the fact that it does a lot of splash, the fact that it can walk over units and cliffs, or anything of that sort. In fact, the speed, the splash and the walking over thing are all good things that encourage micro. We want things that are better when microed.
The problem is the horizontal direction of the splash damage. Because that is exactly how the enemy units automatically position themselves when they try to attack it. The colossus doesn't have to micro - the enemy does it for him!
What we want is a colossus that can walk freely over the battlefield, but only does high damage when you manage to position it correctly. Speed and cliff/unit walk are two things that will let the colossus do exactly this. What we need to change is where the splash damage lands. Imagine if colossus did damage in a straight line from itself, like a lurker. It would still be able to kill a lot of marines, but only when you're able to flank them. Taking them on head on will be highly inefficient.
Or if the colossus did splash like a big X on the ground. Only the center portion of bad guys would take damage from both beams, and most of the units lining up will stand safely between the two lines. You'd have to move the colossus a bit to the side to make it shoot more targets.
This is how you fix the colossus. I agree! This sound fantastic!
LOL... you guys do realize what happens when you break up the deathball, right? Colossi get instantly sniped, and you lose instantly. The problem is the splash damage, and how gateway units have to be nerfed to hell so that when you add that splash in they're not extremely OP.
Do you really think you'll be able to keep your colossi alive when you have to move them into the flanks of your main army to do damage? Not gonna happen...
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On September 18 2012 12:06 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 03:28 Berailfor wrote:
As for the other guys suggestion about making them not targetable by air in exchange for another nerf, Vikings were designed around colossus specifically. If you want to have them also rework Vikings, and possibly even corruptors. Then ultimately after all the compensation was made it would still be a nerf. This is why this thread is so damn stupid, everyone (including the OP) is just using their bias against colossi to suggest some nerfs that aren't justified and would require a complete rework of other mechanics to even have them make sense even if the nerf WAS justifiable. Please guys like I said the colossus is not imbalanced, people consider it BORING. There is a very huge difference between these 2 things. So if you want any of your suggestions to be taken seriously, then make it a change that isnt a nerf. But rather simply a change (but keep in mind for it to make sense it can't conflict with other units balance and design). Oh wait, the colossus is so deeply imbedded in design that that's virtually impossible. See why this is going no where?
But this is EXACTLY the problem. Because the other races ANTI-AIR is designed around killing the colossus, the entire protoss armada is useless! Vikings and corruptors should be balanced around the rest of the air units in the game, not around killing the colossus. I don't consider the colossus imba. I don't think it inheritly needs a nerf. I just want sky-toss to be a viable proposition and it's not because of the colossus.
I disagree. If you open Stargate, you can have an air army before Vikings or Corruptors should be available. And you can at least beat Corruptors/Mutalisks in an air to air battle.
The problem is not at all, that the other races air is superior. The problem is that Terran just laughs about any form of airball that does not contain 10+ capital ships or 20+ supermobile ground+air attackers, because you know, pressing 'T' is a really good skill to have against air.
And on the other side we have zerg, where you can go air against early on, but what do you do if zerg goes air? Build more air? Yeah... look at your keyboard and then just under 'T' you will find 'F'. Zergs really love if you build more air...
Oracle Phase Shield hopefully solves the fungal problem, Mech play vs Protoss hopefully gives Protoss the chance to play Stargate against Terran once in a while, though against bio... let's put it this way, due to interceptors, Carriers are the only capital ship that does lose a maxed engagement against a mineral only unit and I don't think the tempest will do any better (might be wrong though!)
--> In all those euqtions, the Colossus doesn't play a role. It only plays a role, if you go Colossus, and then want to switch into Stargate and in that situations, I guess it mostly comes down to how fast can you really switch... If you could pump 4 Carriers at a time, the 5 Corruptors that haven't been morphed into Broodlords (yet) and the 10vikings that need to focus the Colossi won't be enough.
On September 18 2012 13:01 trbot wrote:
I'm shocked terrans are okay with the idea of the reaver re-appearing. Did you never see BW videos showing one scarab one-shot 8 hydras? If you ball up your units for one second, a scarab will one-shot 20 marines. I'd just bring two warp prisms with reavers and drop them flanking your army... Believe me, I'd love using the reaver...
I can see it now... drop two reavers in your mineral line from a speed prism... kill every single SCV in two volleys... move on to your next base...
Or, bring my first reaver to break your bunker + expansion... you can't repair since a single scarab will one-shot all repairing SCVs, in addition to doing > 100 damage to the bunker... You can't run out to attack me, since you'll lose a dozen units to the first scarab before reaching me...
Or, siege your planetary with a couple of reavers... You can't repair without losing all of your SCVs in a volley or two...
yeah, that's the whole point why the reaver didn't make it. Too powerful in the SC2 enviroment.
Of course you could nerf it down to 35damage, 1.0radius AoE with 4sec cooldown, or you could do 70damage with hardly any AoE. What that thing would have in common with a reaver would be a different question...
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How about making a collosus shoot like a reaver?
This covers so much of the problems with the colosus, as in adding more micro(target firing),making protoss more fun, having a unit that can finally be used effectivily again for worker harrass (every protoss's dream from BW). It would not completely change the whole balance of the game cuz still countered the same way, wouldn't be stealing a unit completely (the reaver ofc) from BW (one of blizzards concerns). It would still be nooby friendly, would be more exciting to watch and would also create so much hype for HOTS having a reaver-like unit back.
Please keep in mind that obviously the dmg, atk speed etc. would have to be tweaked to be more balanced. but I think it could be done.
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I think the best way would be to remove the colossus altogether and replace it with another unit or two.
That said, maybe a change of the colossus back to a sort of attack like in the alpha(⁇) where it was kinda like a void ray's attack. It could be single target damage with short-range AoE that deals bonus damage vs light (or not)
In addition or instead (not quite sure which), the colossus could also be slower. It's cliff scaling makes it very mobile even if it's slower than a standard unit, and it's high health and shields still makes it very hard to kill due to running away. This might not be necessary though considering HotS's viper or terran's new unit.
On September 18 2012 17:05 Jsmith9292 wrote:
How about making a collosus shoot like a reaver?
While it'd probably be nice, it wouldn't make any damn sense at all. Might as well just replace the colossus with a modified reaver.
Personally on the wacky side of ideas, I thought that a carrier that shoots kamikaze interceptors would be really cool. It would probably make carriers ridiculous and overpowered if the interceptors could attack regularly too though. Maybe a protoss would have to choose one type of carrier or another (and not able to change back, at least quickly)
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EPT
