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the colossus is the most hated unit not only in the protoss arsenal, but in the whole game, topping most "what unit should be removed" polls.
it is often blamed to single-handedly cause the deathball syndrome in sc2 with its concept of a frail a-move long range aoe unit.
it made people miss the micro-intensive reaver ever since WoL came out.
the question is: is there any realistic way of making the colossus an interesting unit? because frankly, i highly doubt blizzard will ever remove it. it has become an iconic unit in its own right, for better or worse...
so i want to hear some opinions on how colossus could be fixed without completely reworking the concept of the unit.
i ll start with a few ideas of my own and add ideas of other posters, once we get enough i ll add a poll in the OP
detailed suggestions:
+ Show Spoiler +
- make the colossus really slow
pro: kind of fits the concept of a huge unit, will make deathballs less mobile
con: won't matter for mothership-deathballs, making the deathball slower might not really solve its problems
- instead of an automatic attack, give colossi an ability with cooldown that "casts" aoe damage on a given spot, focussing its lasers there
pro: makes colossi very micro intense and gets rid of them being an a-move unit, would probably lead to interesting new game mechanics (for example casting colossus beams in front of cannons or on the flank of an army to eliminate ling flanks)
con: makes them more similar to HTs
- make the colossus attack mana-based to increase its cooldown after the first few shots. think of it similar to the reaver mechanic that made rebuilding their shots take longer than actually firing them.
pro: new game mechanic that is not in place for any other unit. might make colossi more interesting for hit and runs but less powerful in prolonged deathball vs deathball engagements, thus possibly turning it more into a strong midgame unit instead of an integral part of the maxed out deathball (espeally in pvp). could lead to new micro-tactics against colossi (eg walk a few single marines into the deathball to drain their energy before attacking)
cons: might not do any of the above really. will make EMP affect colossi as well which im not sure is a good thing
- make the colossus aoe do damage in a different way than to dealing it in a horizontal line, making it more-micro intense to aim it perfectly. maybe combine with a slower rate of fire to make best use of this effect.
pro: makes colossus more micro-intense and encourages creating a good arc vs the deathball even more
cons: does not really fix the deathball issue
- colossus needs to siege up before firing
pro: makes it less mobile
cons: does not fit with the unit design, too similar to siege tank
- make the colossus use air upgrades instead of ground upgrades
pro: only a very slight change, but would make going colossus more of a comittment. also would set protoss up for easier transition into carriers lategame
cons: doesnt change much
- double its damage and its cooldown to make every shot count more
pro: makes it more crucial to aim shots and gives more room to micro cols without losing shots
cons: was already like this in the beta and got patched, because it was deemed to powerful and discouraged microing against colossus since units die so fast
- make the colossus attack 'charge up' like the voidray, doing more damage the longer it stays focused. maybe combine this with making the attack a castable spell
pro: micro intensive, interesting game mechanic
cons: might be hard to balance. might be too hard to use for casuals
poll:
Poll: whats your favourite idea to fix colossi?colossi are fine, dont change them (101) 52% change the shape of the aoe from horizontal line to something more microable (34) 17% make colossi use air upgrades instead of ground upgrades (15) 8% decrease movement speed (14) 7% increase damage per shot and increase cooldown (10) 5% swap automatic attack for a castable permanent aoe effect (8) 4% make colossi need to 'siege up' or 'power up' before attacking (8) 4% make colossus attack do more damage over time (like voidray) (4) 2% make the attack mana-based to increase cooldown after first 2-3 shots (2) 1% 196 total votes Your vote: whats your favourite idea to fix colossi? (Vote): colossi are fine, dont change them
(Vote): decrease movement speed
(Vote): swap automatic attack for a castable permanent aoe effect
(Vote): make the attack mana-based to increase cooldown after first 2-3 shots
(Vote): change the shape of the aoe from horizontal line to something more microable
(Vote): make colossi need to 'siege up' or 'power up' before attacking
(Vote): make colossi use air upgrades instead of ground upgrades
(Vote): increase damage per shot and increase cooldown
(Vote): make colossus attack do more damage over time (like voidray)
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There is no saving the Colossus. Here are some changes we can shrink it's size, so it can't be hit by air, Change it to shooting these little blue orbs called Scarabs that cost minerals and reduce it's movement speed by 50% and allowing 2 to fit in a warp Prism.
Yes I know I just describe the Reaver but if you asked ever Protoss player what they would want 99% of them would say Reavers over Colossus. Though Blizzard won't remove for some reason or another I really don't know.
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Increase its attack damage so it can at least 1 shot marines and workers, but increase the cooldown so it is more effective and more feasible to manually target each shot to get the maximum AoE damage.
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slow it down a lot and/or make it siege before able to shoot. its a siege unit, make it one! its way too mobile right now.
OR: introduce the reaver and make it have friendly fire. that would also solve a lot of issues with FFs and add lot of micro on both sides.
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Its very unlikely the collosus will be changed, one of the core aspects of PvT and ZvP balance is based around how the collosus is now, changing it now will require blizzard to pretty much rebalance from the ground up instead of balancing from an already (decently) balanced platform.
But seeing as how the are willing to cut the warhound, if we're convincing enough, they might do it
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Be careful what you wish for. If blizzard remove colossi, most Protoss will truly be so mad since they are so used to a moving such a strong unit.
Are you seriously asking blizz to remove colossi? Think more thoroughly please...
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On September 15 2012 17:34 dynwar7 wrote:
Be careful what you wish for. If blizzard remove colossi, most Protoss will truly be so mad since they are so used to a moving such a strong unit.
Are you seriously asking blizz to remove colossi? Think more thoroughly please...
Yeah, blizzard is really at a crossroads right now.
They have become so big that they need to keep their majority casual audience satisfied, and the easiest way to do this is with powerful Amove units, but this will hurt their esports ambitions since people will just get bored watching Amove units over and over again. (thank goodness stim micro saved their asses on this one)
People also really dont like change, alot of people are already complaining badly about the Warhound loss, a collosus removal will probably cause epic trolling on the blizzard forums.
Lets see how they get themselves through this.
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The reason why Protoss are so prone to deathball with colossus is because all Protoss ground units share a single upgrade. If robo upgrades were separate from gateway upgrades, (as it is for Terran) then maybe each unit could receive an individual buff and Protoss could be more reminiscent of BW.
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A suggestion I made some time ago was: Make the colossus shots delayed. Simply make the colossus take 0.5-2 seconds to target an area and charge the laser beam(s) before firing. Perhaps replace the sweeping attack with a focussed beam that deals circular aoe. This will make micro much more important when using the colossus, but also when playing against it. It will however not change the usefullness of it in lower leagues.
The problem still remains that the colossus is too mobile for its own good - making it slower and/or removing its wall climbing will allow it to be buffed a bit in damage (making it more positional).
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The problem with colossus is not the size, the vulnerability to anti-air, the speed, the fact that it does a lot of splash, the fact that it can walk over units and cliffs, or anything of that sort. In fact, the speed, the splash and the walking over thing are all good things that encourage micro. We want things that are better when microed.
The problem is the horizontal direction of the splash damage. Because that is exactly how the enemy units automatically position themselves when they try to attack it. The colossus doesn't have to micro - the enemy does it for him!
What we want is a colossus that can walk freely over the battlefield, but only does high damage when you manage to position it correctly. Speed and cliff/unit walk are two things that will let the colossus do exactly this. What we need to change is where the splash damage lands. Imagine if colossus did damage in a straight line from itself, like a lurker. It would still be able to kill a lot of marines, but only when you're able to flank them. Taking them on head on will be highly inefficient.
Or if the colossus did splash like a big X on the ground. Only the center portion of bad guys would take damage from both beams, and most of the units lining up will stand safely between the two lines. You'd have to move the colossus a bit to the side to make it shoot more targets.
This is how you fix the colossus.
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On September 15 2012 19:10 gedatsu wrote:
The problem with colossus is not the size, the vulnerability to anti-air, the speed, the fact that it does a lot of splash, the fact that it can walk over units and cliffs, or anything of that sort. In fact, the speed, the splash and the walking over thing are all good things that encourage micro. We want things that are better when microed.
The problem is the horizontal direction of the splash damage. Because that is exactly how the enemy units automatically position themselves when they try to attack it. The colossus doesn't have to micro - the enemy does it for him!
What we want is a colossus that can walk freely over the battlefield, but only does high damage when you manage to position it correctly. Speed and cliff/unit walk are two things that will let the colossus do exactly this. What we need to change is where the splash damage lands. Imagine if colossus did damage in a straight line from itself, like a lurker. It would still be able to kill a lot of marines, but only when you're able to flank them. Taking them on head on will be highly inefficient.
Or if the colossus did splash like a big X on the ground. Only the center portion of bad guys would take damage from both beams, and most of the units lining up will stand safely between the two lines. You'd have to move the colossus a bit to the side to make it shoot more targets.
This is how you fix the colossus.
this idea is awesome, going to include it in the OP
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I'm 99% sure that I saw this exact thread like 2 days ago.
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United Kingdom12024 Posts
How to fix the collosus.
Make it much slower or force it to "siege" to fire.
You could then make the model slower and remove cliff walking as nobody uses it and you couldn't hide it on top of your army. Having it smaller means AtA isn't so prevelant and it gives the carrier a chance against bio terrans as they won't have vikings.
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and how do you plan the colossus to survive vikings and stimmed marauder if you have to flank with it, meaning separating it from your main army ?
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If colossus were to be removed, it had to be done before beta started. It's too late now.
But maybe tweaking speed, some castable ability etc. will be possible.
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On September 15 2012 17:50 GorGor wrote:
The reason why Protoss are so prone to deathball with colossus is because all Protoss ground units share a single upgrade. If robo upgrades were separate from gateway upgrades, (as it is for Terran) then maybe each unit could receive an individual buff and Protoss could be more reminiscent of BW.
Protoss upgrades in WoL are exactly the same as they were in BW (i.e. ground upgrades and air upgrades).
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On September 15 2012 19:15 zeross wrote:
and how do you plan the colossus to survive vikings and stimmed marauder if you have to flank it, meaning separating it from your main army ?
There are a number of ways. First of all, the enemy has two flanks. Put colossi on both. Second, you can rebalance life/damage so that it takes more viking hits, or that it's just really worth it to sacrifice the colossus if it is able to shoot just a few times. Third, run away. Preferably walk over some zealots when you do. It can walk over cliffs and units for a reason. Fourth, spread out the rest of your army too. Fifth, use phoenix against vikings. They're pretty good.
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They will not remove the colossus because that mean they must remove corruptor too if they don't want a freshly "dead" unit. As a Zerg i also blame the colossus for forcing me to make corruptor wich are another fail designed unit.
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Just make thermal lance an activated ability. You get the increased range for X secs, and you are rewarded/penalized if you hit/miss the correct activation timing.
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On September 15 2012 17:34 dynwar7 wrote:
Be careful what you wish for. If blizzard remove colossi, most Protoss will truly be so mad since they are so used to a moving such a strong unit.
Are you seriously asking blizz to remove colossi? Think more thoroughly please...
Do something with it...
Poll from May 14, 2012
Poll: Which unit would you most like to see removed?Colossus (1057) 67% Marauder (181) 11% Roach (92) 6% Other (70) 4% Infestor (69) 4% Corruptor (39) 2% Mothership (23) 1% Banshee (22) 1% Carrier (18) 1% Nydus Worm (10) 1% 1581 total votes Your vote: Which unit would you most like to see removed? (Vote): Colossus
(Vote): Roach
(Vote): Marauder
(Vote): Corruptor
(Vote): Mothership
(Vote): Nydus Worm
(Vote): Carrier
(Vote): Infestor
(Vote): Banshee
(Vote): Other
Poll from May 22, 2012
Poll: Most hated protoss unit?Colossus (348) 71% Sentry (54) 11% Void Ray (31) 6% Stalker (14) 3% Phoenix (13) 3% Mothership (13) 3% Immortal (12) 2% Warp Prism (5) 1% 490 total votes Your vote: Most hated protoss unit? (Vote): Stalker
(Vote): Sentry
(Vote): Immortal
(Vote): Warp Prism
(Vote): Colossus
(Vote): Phoenix
(Vote): Void Ray
(Vote): Mothership
Poll from July 24, 2012
Poll: The most Despised Sc2 UnitCollsi (296) 59% Infestors (100) 20% Marines (36) 7% Brood Lords (23) 5% High Templar (10) 2% Dark Templar (9) 2% Medivacs (5) 1% Phoenix/Voidray (5) 1% Carriers/CattleBruiser (4) 1% Reapers/Helions (4) 1% Banelings (4) 1% Siege Tanks (3) 1% 499 total votes Your vote: The most Despised Sc2 Unit (Vote): Collsi
(Vote): High Templar
(Vote): Medivacs
(Vote): Siege Tanks
(Vote): Brood Lords
(Vote): Infestors
(Vote): Carriers/CattleBruiser
(Vote): Reapers/Helions
(Vote): Dark Templar
(Vote): Marines
(Vote): Banelings
(Vote): Phoenix/Voidray
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EPT
