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On September 17 2012 07:47 Tritanis wrote:I don't know, Colossus is supposed to be a support unit, yet it does the most dps in the protoss army while the gateway units act like a meatshield. Something is wrong there, isn't it? What if, instead of the pure dps machine, like the current colossus is now, Protoss had a true support unit built from the robo bay? Here is a little idea that I came up with a moment ago. =============================================== Here's a pic so my post will draw more attention! Of course the unit should look more protoss-y ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/s5ZjA.jpg) Let's call the unit a Ravager, I know, lame name, whatever. I don't really know if it should be attackable from both air and ground or what it's movement speed should be - but probably not faster than the colossus so microing it with warp prisms would be rewarding. The main point is that it would shoot a wide beam of energy in a straight line that would deal minimal damage and apply a stacking debuff to every enemy unit on its path. The units affected by the debuff would receive increased damage for a short amount of time - be it a percentage increase or X damage per hit increase like Devourer in brood war did. The unit could possibly have an ability that would shot a beam dealing a lot more damage, but firing it would cost resources and require a channel time before the improved beam is shot. So, in a nutshell, it's a slow hellion with pathetic-dps, siege-range beam attack that makes units affected more vulnerable. It doesn't do much damage on its own, but combined with stalkers and zealots it is a deadly threat. Here are some example stats that will probably be heavily op or up: -hp, shields, armor, resource cost and build time the same as colossus -attack damage: 12(+1) -attack range: 10 -beam width: 1 (hellion's is 0.15 and storm's aoe is 1.5) -cooldown: 2 seconds -projectile speed: let's say a half of the tempest's one, so you can perhaps use blink micro or dodge it with stimmed bio -every attack applies a debuff that increases damage taken by 1 per stack, stacks 3 times. ability overcharge: costs 75 minerals, 6 seconds channeling time before fire, beam width and range the same as in Ravager's normal attack deals 60 damage + 80 vs armored and buildings - you can wreck some serious havoc in the worker line or quickly kill defensive buildings; the enemy can see the direction where the beam will travel, so it won't be so easy to kill workers with it, unless you catch the enemy by surprise. Here you go, pure support 'colossus'! Any feedback?
Funny thing. This is a similar idea I had had for a around 2 years on how to make the collosus interesting.
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On September 15 2012 19:10 gedatsu wrote:
The problem with colossus is not the size, the vulnerability to anti-air, the speed, the fact that it does a lot of splash, the fact that it can walk over units and cliffs, or anything of that sort. In fact, the speed, the splash and the walking over thing are all good things that encourage micro. We want things that are better when microed.
The problem is the horizontal direction of the splash damage. Because that is exactly how the enemy units automatically position themselves when they try to attack it. The colossus doesn't have to micro - the enemy does it for him!
What we want is a colossus that can walk freely over the battlefield, but only does high damage when you manage to position it correctly. Speed and cliff/unit walk are two things that will let the colossus do exactly this. What we need to change is where the splash damage lands. Imagine if colossus did damage in a straight line from itself, like a lurker. It would still be able to kill a lot of marines, but only when you're able to flank them. Taking them on head on will be highly inefficient.
Or if the colossus did splash like a big X on the ground. Only the center portion of bad guys would take damage from both beams, and most of the units lining up will stand safely between the two lines. You'd have to move the colossus a bit to the side to make it shoot more targets.
This is how you fix the colossus.
I disagree to some of your points. It's speed and firing rate are awkward and make it nasty to micro without a shuttle/warp prism. If you could warp prism micro and get the same results as a reaver, then that would be fun. But it doesn't work; why? And why is it just not fun to micro?
- colossus's damage is so low, it's not worth it to micro 1 or 2 of them compared to microing one or two reavers. It's better to a move, or a move and focus fire or stutter step back or whatever. It's better to have a lot of them all a moving, rather than a couple tactically placed ones.
- the colossus is so big, it bumps up against other colossis and makes PvP a real nightmare when you have mass colossus wars. It's no fun at all.
- stutter step with colossi is just kinda annoying. Stutter step with terran bio is really fun. I think it's the speed and damage output and size of the units/ease of getting them to do what you want them to do.
So basically, driving a colossus is like driving a bus. Driving a clump of stimmed marines and marauders is like driving a porsche. One is a pain, one is a blast.
What can be done to the colossus to make it more fun?
- More damage with microed well.
- Less damage when a-moved.
- More agile (smaller colossion box with other colossi?). Or make it do enough damage so you can warp prism micro them to good effect.
- INSTANT GRATIFICATION. This is the biggest missing piece the more I think of it. Reavers give instant gratification. Stimmed bio does as well. The colossus just slowly chips away at things unless you have 5+ of them.
- PATHING. They are the one unit in SC2 that never does what you tell it to do consistently.
I dunno, but it would be so cool to get a more fun colossus. It has potential.
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Make Colossi push gateway units around them and require them to have at least a minimal space. I dont mean there should be no unit inbetween their legs ... they should create a "ripple" in the ground units instead of having zero effect.
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My suggestion:
Colossus gain an ability to "sit down" (and "stand up" too, of course). While in that position, Colossus cannot move, lose a little of attack range but Colossus cannot be targeted by anti-air attacks.
Just my 2 cents...
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all I know is the colossus is the most boring unit in the game to watch
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Why is there no "replace the coloss with a micro friendly unit" option in the poll?
Anyways thats what I'd do, you can't really fix it without removing the fact that air units are the only real counter thingy, that has ruined late game protoss air throughout wol, and imo if you gonna remove that you might as well scrap the entire unit. There is obviously something about the reaver that made blizz remove it (given there are alpha screenshots/videos of the reaver in star 2), though I fear similiar to the tank nerf that was just because it was used on super small map. I highly doubt they'll bring back the reaver so imo they should just replace by a completly new robo unit. One that has a solid ground counter to it from every race, does a lot of damage if microd well and sucks really badly if not done so.
Also if terran mechs again vP and since Zerg has viper I really don't see how reaver would too bad in star 2.
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On September 19 2012 03:07 Lorch wrote:
Why is there no "replace the coloss with a micro friendly unit" option in the poll?
Anyways thats what I'd do, you can't really fix it without removing the fact that air units are the only real counter thingy, that has ruined late game protoss air throughout wol, and imo if you gonna remove that you might as well scrap the entire unit. There is obviously something about the reaver that made blizz remove it (given there are alpha screenshots/videos of the reaver in star 2), though I fear similiar to the tank nerf that was just because it was used on super small map. I highly doubt they'll bring back the reaver so imo they should just replace by a completly new robo unit. One that has a solid ground counter to it from every race, does a lot of damage if microd well and sucks really badly if not done so.
Also if terran mechs again vP and since Zerg has viper I really don't see how reaver would too bad in star 2.
Yeah, I was going to say; the most viable option would be to simply remove the unit and replace it with something else. Maybe blizzard should have thought of this instead of removing the carrier.
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it's an unsavable unit imo. Just start over from scratch.
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I think the way the poll is set is slightly biased.
It'd be better to be
Poll 1: Does the Colossus need to be removed ?
-Yes
-No
Poll 2 : What would be your fix ?
-Option 1
-Option 2
-Option 3
etc....
So the "It sucks" part isn't divided in ten options.
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Colossus fix
What do we hate about the Colossus?
- Lacking micro possibilities on Attacker's side
- Lacking micro possibilities on Defender's side
- Lacking Excitement on spectators side
- boring A-move unit
How does it work right now?
- Two beams of AOE, from the side to the middle. Very fast shot animation, no option for defender to micro out of it, because its attack is too fast.
- Positioning not important, because it is best when the Colossus is right behind your army, flanking doesn't bring benefit because of how the AOE is right now.
- targeting not important, because when you a-move and colossus is behind your army and in front of opponent's army, it's the best outcome
How to fix:
Attack undergoes the following change:
Attack Phase 1:
After a 1 second "preparation" where it turns its head to the target, the Colossus shoots an almost instant fucking powerful AOE shot in a straight line to the target that wreaks havoc on all affected units in the way
Attack Phase 2
Beam divides into two beams that go slowly horizontally from the middle to the sides, about the same AOE size that it has right now (but over the time of ~2,5 seconds). Attack is ofc much weaker than Phase 1 and weaker than Colossus attack as it is right now.
This fixes everything. Yes. Everything.
Why? Asshole explain. Pics or it didn't happen.
Alright, step by step:
![[image loading]](http://s14.directupload.net/images/120918/92bqpwkj.jpg)
1) Positioning
Suddenly, positioning has become a lot more important. Because the enemy's army will stand in a concave in front of yours, the powerful AOE shot will not have its maximum efficiancy if you shoot it vertically in the concave, but horizontally from the flank.
2) Micro on Attacker's side
2.1) Targeting
Targeting? Why the fuck is targeting important now!?
Look: If you A-move your colossus now, it will target the closest enemy unit to it. That means: The extremely bad ass fucking Phase 1 AOE shot will hit only the unit it has targeted and maybe 2 of its side neighbour units because it will auto-target the closest one. Phase 2 AOE shot will ofc hit more units horizontally.
Awesome micro required for targeting:
The most effective shot you can do with your new Colossus is when you flank and target a unit in the concave that is in max range. If you estimate the perfect distance in range Phase 1 AOE shot is raping enemy units in a range 9 line.
If you target a unit that is out of range, Colossus -as any other unit- has to walk in distance and can be attacked on its way till it is in range. So attacker has to make good decisions, safe shot range ~7 or risk shot range 9?
If you don't flank but decide to leave your Colossus safe behind your army, targeting an enemy unit that is in the back of the concave will still lead to a very useful shot, because the units in front of the target will take lots of damage as well.
2.2) Positioning
As explained above, the best way to use your new colossus is not having it behind your army, but to flank. That doesn't mean, however, that it can't deal any damage when not microed. Phase 2 AOE will deal its damage, but way less than skillfully used.
If flanking is too risky, leave it behind your army but manually target a unit that is in the back of the concave to get a good shot.
3) Micro for defenders
Enemy Colossus moves it head. Fuck. There's probalby not much time to react to the Phase1 shot, but you do have enough time to run your units out of the way for the Phase 2 AOE. Its slow.
4) Spectators
Well, do I really have to explain how awesome it is for spectators if the Colossus worked like this!? Yes? i'm not gonna waste energy on writing that.
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On September 19 2012 02:35 ZeroClick wrote:
My suggestion:
Colossus gain an ability to "sit down" (and "stand up" too, of course). While in that position, Colossus cannot move, lose a little of attack range but Colossus cannot be targeted by anti-air attacks.
Just my 2 cents...
Same as siege tank.
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On September 19 2012 06:04 Leviance wrote:Colossus fix What do we hate about the Colossus? - Lacking micro possibilities on Attacker's side - Lacking micro possibilities on Defender's side - Lacking Excitement on spectators side - boring A-move unit How does it work right now? - Two beams of AOE, from the side to the middle. Very fast shot animation, no option for defender to micro out of it, because its attack is too fast. - Positioning not important, because it is best when the Colossus is right behind your army, flanking doesn't bring benefit because of how the AOE is right now. - targeting not important, because when you a-move and colossus is behind your army and in front of opponent's army, it's the best outcome How to fix: Attack undergoes the following change: Attack Phase 1: After a 1 second "preparation" where it turns its head to the target, the Colossus shoots an almost instant fucking powerful AOE shot in a straight line to the target that wreaks havoc on all affected units in the way Attack Phase 2 Beam divides into two beams that go slowly horizontally from the middle to the sides, about the same AOE size that it has right now (but over the time of ~2,5 seconds). Attack is ofc much weaker than Phase 1 and weaker than Colossus attack as it is right now. This fixes everything. Yes. Everything. Why? Asshole explain. Pics or it didn't happen.Alright, step by step: 1) PositioningSuddenly, positioning has become a lot more important. Because the enemy's army will stand in a concave in front of yours, the powerful AOE shot will not have its maximum efficiancy if you shoot it vertically in the concave, but horizontally from the flank. 2) Micro on Attacker's side2.1) TargetingTargeting? Why the fuck is targeting important now!? Look: If you A-move your colossus now, it will target the closest enemy unit to it. That means: The extremely bad ass fucking Phase 1 AOE shot will hit only the unit it has targeted and maybe 2 of its side neighbour units because it will auto-target the closest one. Phase 2 AOE shot will ofc hit more units horizontally. Awesome micro required for targeting: The most effective shot you can do with your new Colossus is when you flank and target a unit in the concave that is in max range. If you estimate the perfect distance in range Phase 1 AOE shot is raping enemy units in a range 9 line. If you target a unit that is out of range, Colossus -as any other unit- has to walk in distance and can be attacked on its way till it is in range. So attacker has to make good decisions, safe shot range ~7 or risk shot range 9? If you don't flank but decide to leave your Colossus safe behind your army, targeting an enemy unit that is in the back of the concave will still lead to a very useful shot, because the units in front of the target will take lots of damage as well. 2.2) PositioningAs explained above, the best way to use your new colossus is not having it behind your army, but to flank. That doesn't mean, however, that it can't deal any damage when not microed. Phase 2 AOE will deal its damage, but way less than skillfully used. If flanking is too risky, leave it behind your army but manually target a unit that is in the back of the concave to get a good shot. 3) Micro for defendersEnemy Colossus moves it head. Fuck. There's probalby not much time to react to the Phase1 shot, but you do have enough time to run your units out of the way for the Phase 2 AOE. Its slow. 4) SpectatorsWell, do I really have to explain how awesome it is for spectators if the Colossus worked like this!? Yes? i'm not gonna waste energy on writing that.
Interesting.
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On September 19 2012 06:04 Leviance wrote:Colossus fix What do we hate about the Colossus? - Lacking micro possibilities on Attacker's side - Lacking micro possibilities on Defender's side - Lacking Excitement on spectators side - boring A-move unit How does it work right now? - Two beams of AOE, from the side to the middle. Very fast shot animation, no option for defender to micro out of it, because its attack is too fast. - Positioning not important, because it is best when the Colossus is right behind your army, flanking doesn't bring benefit because of how the AOE is right now. - targeting not important, because when you a-move and colossus is behind your army and in front of opponent's army, it's the best outcome How to fix: Attack undergoes the following change: Attack Phase 1: After a 1 second "preparation" where it turns its head to the target, the Colossus shoots an almost instant fucking powerful AOE shot in a straight line to the target that wreaks havoc on all affected units in the way Attack Phase 2 Beam divides into two beams that go slowly horizontally from the middle to the sides, about the same AOE size that it has right now (but over the time of ~2,5 seconds). Attack is ofc much weaker than Phase 1 and weaker than Colossus attack as it is right now. This fixes everything. Yes. Everything. Why? Asshole explain. Pics or it didn't happen.Alright, step by step: 1) PositioningSuddenly, positioning has become a lot more important. Because the enemy's army will stand in a concave in front of yours, the powerful AOE shot will not have its maximum efficiancy if you shoot it vertically in the concave, but horizontally from the flank. 2) Micro on Attacker's side2.1) TargetingTargeting? Why the fuck is targeting important now!? Look: If you A-move your colossus now, it will target the closest enemy unit to it. That means: The extremely bad ass fucking Phase 1 AOE shot will hit only the unit it has targeted and maybe 2 of its side neighbour units because it will auto-target the closest one. Phase 2 AOE shot will ofc hit more units horizontally. Awesome micro required for targeting: The most effective shot you can do with your new Colossus is when you flank and target a unit in the concave that is in max range. If you estimate the perfect distance in range Phase 1 AOE shot is raping enemy units in a range 9 line. If you target a unit that is out of range, Colossus -as any other unit- has to walk in distance and can be attacked on its way till it is in range. So attacker has to make good decisions, safe shot range ~7 or risk shot range 9? If you don't flank but decide to leave your Colossus safe behind your army, targeting an enemy unit that is in the back of the concave will still lead to a very useful shot, because the units in front of the target will take lots of damage as well. 2.2) PositioningAs explained above, the best way to use your new colossus is not having it behind your army, but to flank. That doesn't mean, however, that it can't deal any damage when not microed. Phase 2 AOE will deal its damage, but way less than skillfully used. If flanking is too risky, leave it behind your army but manually target a unit that is in the back of the concave to get a good shot. 3) Micro for defendersEnemy Colossus moves it head. Fuck. There's probalby not much time to react to the Phase1 shot, but you do have enough time to run your units out of the way for the Phase 2 AOE. Its slow. 4) SpectatorsWell, do I really have to explain how awesome it is for spectators if the Colossus worked like this!? Yes? i'm not gonna waste energy on writing that.
I appreciate the fact that you're trying, but flanking with a colossus versus terran is suicide. Stimbio just runs up and kills it instantly. Of course, if you don't have blink stalkers underneath it, vikings just flank your colo and pick it off, too.
In short:
if you don't have a pack of zealots under it, stimbio rapes it.
if you don't have a pack of stalkers under it, vikings rape it.
therein lies the root of the deathball.
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On September 19 2012 06:04 Leviance wrote:Colossus fix What do we hate about the Colossus? - Lacking micro possibilities on Attacker's side - Lacking micro possibilities on Defender's side - Lacking Excitement on spectators side - boring A-move unit How does it work right now? - Two beams of AOE, from the side to the middle. Very fast shot animation, no option for defender to micro out of it, because its attack is too fast. - Positioning not important, because it is best when the Colossus is right behind your army, flanking doesn't bring benefit because of how the AOE is right now. - targeting not important, because when you a-move and colossus is behind your army and in front of opponent's army, it's the best outcome How to fix: Attack undergoes the following change: Attack Phase 1: After a 1 second "preparation" where it turns its head to the target, the Colossus shoots an almost instant fucking powerful AOE shot in a straight line to the target that wreaks havoc on all affected units in the way Attack Phase 2 Beam divides into two beams that go slowly horizontally from the middle to the sides, about the same AOE size that it has right now (but over the time of ~2,5 seconds). Attack is ofc much weaker than Phase 1 and weaker than Colossus attack as it is right now. This fixes everything. Yes. Everything. Why? Asshole explain. Pics or it didn't happen.Alright, step by step: 1) PositioningSuddenly, positioning has become a lot more important. Because the enemy's army will stand in a concave in front of yours, the powerful AOE shot will not have its maximum efficiancy if you shoot it vertically in the concave, but horizontally from the flank. 2) Micro on Attacker's side2.1) TargetingTargeting? Why the fuck is targeting important now!? Look: If you A-move your colossus now, it will target the closest enemy unit to it. That means: The extremely bad ass fucking Phase 1 AOE shot will hit only the unit it has targeted and maybe 2 of its side neighbour units because it will auto-target the closest one. Phase 2 AOE shot will ofc hit more units horizontally. Awesome micro required for targeting: The most effective shot you can do with your new Colossus is when you flank and target a unit in the concave that is in max range. If you estimate the perfect distance in range Phase 1 AOE shot is raping enemy units in a range 9 line. If you target a unit that is out of range, Colossus -as any other unit- has to walk in distance and can be attacked on its way till it is in range. So attacker has to make good decisions, safe shot range ~7 or risk shot range 9? If you don't flank but decide to leave your Colossus safe behind your army, targeting an enemy unit that is in the back of the concave will still lead to a very useful shot, because the units in front of the target will take lots of damage as well. 2.2) PositioningAs explained above, the best way to use your new colossus is not having it behind your army, but to flank. That doesn't mean, however, that it can't deal any damage when not microed. Phase 2 AOE will deal its damage, but way less than skillfully used. If flanking is too risky, leave it behind your army but manually target a unit that is in the back of the concave to get a good shot. 3) Micro for defendersEnemy Colossus moves it head. Fuck. There's probalby not much time to react to the Phase1 shot, but you do have enough time to run your units out of the way for the Phase 2 AOE. Its slow. 4) SpectatorsWell, do I really have to explain how awesome it is for spectators if the Colossus worked like this!? Yes? i'm not gonna waste energy on writing that.
Very similar to what I proposed on page 1.
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On September 19 2012 06:46 gedatsu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:04 Leviance wrote:Colossus fix What do we hate about the Colossus? - Lacking micro possibilities on Attacker's side - Lacking micro possibilities on Defender's side - Lacking Excitement on spectators side - boring A-move unit How does it work right now? - Two beams of AOE, from the side to the middle. Very fast shot animation, no option for defender to micro out of it, because its attack is too fast. - Positioning not important, because it is best when the Colossus is right behind your army, flanking doesn't bring benefit because of how the AOE is right now. - targeting not important, because when you a-move and colossus is behind your army and in front of opponent's army, it's the best outcome How to fix: Attack undergoes the following change: Attack Phase 1: After a 1 second "preparation" where it turns its head to the target, the Colossus shoots an almost instant fucking powerful AOE shot in a straight line to the target that wreaks havoc on all affected units in the way Attack Phase 2 Beam divides into two beams that go slowly horizontally from the middle to the sides, about the same AOE size that it has right now (but over the time of ~2,5 seconds). Attack is ofc much weaker than Phase 1 and weaker than Colossus attack as it is right now. This fixes everything. Yes. Everything. Why? Asshole explain. Pics or it didn't happen.Alright, step by step: 1) PositioningSuddenly, positioning has become a lot more important. Because the enemy's army will stand in a concave in front of yours, the powerful AOE shot will not have its maximum efficiancy if you shoot it vertically in the concave, but horizontally from the flank. 2) Micro on Attacker's side2.1) TargetingTargeting? Why the fuck is targeting important now!? Look: If you A-move your colossus now, it will target the closest enemy unit to it. That means: The extremely bad ass fucking Phase 1 AOE shot will hit only the unit it has targeted and maybe 2 of its side neighbour units because it will auto-target the closest one. Phase 2 AOE shot will ofc hit more units horizontally. Awesome micro required for targeting: The most effective shot you can do with your new Colossus is when you flank and target a unit in the concave that is in max range. If you estimate the perfect distance in range Phase 1 AOE shot is raping enemy units in a range 9 line. If you target a unit that is out of range, Colossus -as any other unit- has to walk in distance and can be attacked on its way till it is in range. So attacker has to make good decisions, safe shot range ~7 or risk shot range 9? If you don't flank but decide to leave your Colossus safe behind your army, targeting an enemy unit that is in the back of the concave will still lead to a very useful shot, because the units in front of the target will take lots of damage as well. 2.2) PositioningAs explained above, the best way to use your new colossus is not having it behind your army, but to flank. That doesn't mean, however, that it can't deal any damage when not microed. Phase 2 AOE will deal its damage, but way less than skillfully used. If flanking is too risky, leave it behind your army but manually target a unit that is in the back of the concave to get a good shot. 3) Micro for defendersEnemy Colossus moves it head. Fuck. There's probalby not much time to react to the Phase1 shot, but you do have enough time to run your units out of the way for the Phase 2 AOE. Its slow. 4) SpectatorsWell, do I really have to explain how awesome it is for spectators if the Colossus worked like this!? Yes? i'm not gonna waste energy on writing that. Very similar to what I proposed on page 1.
Then your solution probably suffers from the same flaw... How will the colossus live for more than 5 in-game seconds if you flank with it? Any decent protoss player knows colossi are utterly worthless versus terran without a ground army immediately close by to protect them.
I challenge you to walk 5 colossi into a stimbio army and see what happens. If terran has sufficient marauder numbers, the colossi will all go down in the first 10 seconds of battle, at which point he can either immediately rape your measly gateway army, or retreat with minimal damage and hit you when his production cycle pops, before you can build your colo numbers back up.
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On September 19 2012 07:32 trbot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 06:46 gedatsu wrote:On September 19 2012 06:04 Leviance wrote:Colossus fix What do we hate about the Colossus? - Lacking micro possibilities on Attacker's side - Lacking micro possibilities on Defender's side - Lacking Excitement on spectators side - boring A-move unit How does it work right now? - Two beams of AOE, from the side to the middle. Very fast shot animation, no option for defender to micro out of it, because its attack is too fast. - Positioning not important, because it is best when the Colossus is right behind your army, flanking doesn't bring benefit because of how the AOE is right now. - targeting not important, because when you a-move and colossus is behind your army and in front of opponent's army, it's the best outcome How to fix: Attack undergoes the following change: Attack Phase 1: After a 1 second "preparation" where it turns its head to the target, the Colossus shoots an almost instant fucking powerful AOE shot in a straight line to the target that wreaks havoc on all affected units in the way Attack Phase 2 Beam divides into two beams that go slowly horizontally from the middle to the sides, about the same AOE size that it has right now (but over the time of ~2,5 seconds). Attack is ofc much weaker than Phase 1 and weaker than Colossus attack as it is right now. This fixes everything. Yes. Everything. Why? Asshole explain. Pics or it didn't happen.Alright, step by step: 1) PositioningSuddenly, positioning has become a lot more important. Because the enemy's army will stand in a concave in front of yours, the powerful AOE shot will not have its maximum efficiancy if you shoot it vertically in the concave, but horizontally from the flank. 2) Micro on Attacker's side2.1) TargetingTargeting? Why the fuck is targeting important now!? Look: If you A-move your colossus now, it will target the closest enemy unit to it. That means: The extremely bad ass fucking Phase 1 AOE shot will hit only the unit it has targeted and maybe 2 of its side neighbour units because it will auto-target the closest one. Phase 2 AOE shot will ofc hit more units horizontally. Awesome micro required for targeting: The most effective shot you can do with your new Colossus is when you flank and target a unit in the concave that is in max range. If you estimate the perfect distance in range Phase 1 AOE shot is raping enemy units in a range 9 line. If you target a unit that is out of range, Colossus -as any other unit- has to walk in distance and can be attacked on its way till it is in range. So attacker has to make good decisions, safe shot range ~7 or risk shot range 9? If you don't flank but decide to leave your Colossus safe behind your army, targeting an enemy unit that is in the back of the concave will still lead to a very useful shot, because the units in front of the target will take lots of damage as well. 2.2) PositioningAs explained above, the best way to use your new colossus is not having it behind your army, but to flank. That doesn't mean, however, that it can't deal any damage when not microed. Phase 2 AOE will deal its damage, but way less than skillfully used. If flanking is too risky, leave it behind your army but manually target a unit that is in the back of the concave to get a good shot. 3) Micro for defendersEnemy Colossus moves it head. Fuck. There's probalby not much time to react to the Phase1 shot, but you do have enough time to run your units out of the way for the Phase 2 AOE. Its slow. 4) SpectatorsWell, do I really have to explain how awesome it is for spectators if the Colossus worked like this!? Yes? i'm not gonna waste energy on writing that. Very similar to what I proposed on page 1. Then your solution probably suffers from the same flaw... How will the colossus live for more than 5 in-game seconds if you flank with it? Any decent protoss player knows colossi are utterly worthless versus terran without a ground army immediately close by to protect them. I challenge you to walk 5 colossi into a stimbio army and see what happens. If terran has sufficient marauder numbers, the colossi will all go down in the first 10 seconds of battle, at which point he can either immediately rape your measly gateway army, or retreat with minimal damage and hit you when his production cycle pops, before you can build your colo numbers back up.
Combine it with forcefields. Anyway I wouldn't mind if they made it so that AA couldn't target the collosus. Vikings/corrupters vs collosus are very uninterresting. Might need a few other tweaks to make this work balance wise.
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On September 19 2012 09:00 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 07:32 trbot wrote:On September 19 2012 06:46 gedatsu wrote:On September 19 2012 06:04 Leviance wrote:Colossus fix What do we hate about the Colossus? - Lacking micro possibilities on Attacker's side - Lacking micro possibilities on Defender's side - Lacking Excitement on spectators side - boring A-move unit How does it work right now? - Two beams of AOE, from the side to the middle. Very fast shot animation, no option for defender to micro out of it, because its attack is too fast. - Positioning not important, because it is best when the Colossus is right behind your army, flanking doesn't bring benefit because of how the AOE is right now. - targeting not important, because when you a-move and colossus is behind your army and in front of opponent's army, it's the best outcome How to fix: Attack undergoes the following change: Attack Phase 1: After a 1 second "preparation" where it turns its head to the target, the Colossus shoots an almost instant fucking powerful AOE shot in a straight line to the target that wreaks havoc on all affected units in the way Attack Phase 2 Beam divides into two beams that go slowly horizontally from the middle to the sides, about the same AOE size that it has right now (but over the time of ~2,5 seconds). Attack is ofc much weaker than Phase 1 and weaker than Colossus attack as it is right now. This fixes everything. Yes. Everything. Why? Asshole explain. Pics or it didn't happen.Alright, step by step: 1) PositioningSuddenly, positioning has become a lot more important. Because the enemy's army will stand in a concave in front of yours, the powerful AOE shot will not have its maximum efficiancy if you shoot it vertically in the concave, but horizontally from the flank. 2) Micro on Attacker's side2.1) TargetingTargeting? Why the fuck is targeting important now!? Look: If you A-move your colossus now, it will target the closest enemy unit to it. That means: The extremely bad ass fucking Phase 1 AOE shot will hit only the unit it has targeted and maybe 2 of its side neighbour units because it will auto-target the closest one. Phase 2 AOE shot will ofc hit more units horizontally. Awesome micro required for targeting: The most effective shot you can do with your new Colossus is when you flank and target a unit in the concave that is in max range. If you estimate the perfect distance in range Phase 1 AOE shot is raping enemy units in a range 9 line. If you target a unit that is out of range, Colossus -as any other unit- has to walk in distance and can be attacked on its way till it is in range. So attacker has to make good decisions, safe shot range ~7 or risk shot range 9? If you don't flank but decide to leave your Colossus safe behind your army, targeting an enemy unit that is in the back of the concave will still lead to a very useful shot, because the units in front of the target will take lots of damage as well. 2.2) PositioningAs explained above, the best way to use your new colossus is not having it behind your army, but to flank. That doesn't mean, however, that it can't deal any damage when not microed. Phase 2 AOE will deal its damage, but way less than skillfully used. If flanking is too risky, leave it behind your army but manually target a unit that is in the back of the concave to get a good shot. 3) Micro for defendersEnemy Colossus moves it head. Fuck. There's probalby not much time to react to the Phase1 shot, but you do have enough time to run your units out of the way for the Phase 2 AOE. Its slow. 4) SpectatorsWell, do I really have to explain how awesome it is for spectators if the Colossus worked like this!? Yes? i'm not gonna waste energy on writing that. Very similar to what I proposed on page 1. Then your solution probably suffers from the same flaw... How will the colossus live for more than 5 in-game seconds if you flank with it? Any decent protoss player knows colossi are utterly worthless versus terran without a ground army immediately close by to protect them. I challenge you to walk 5 colossi into a stimbio army and see what happens. If terran has sufficient marauder numbers, the colossi will all go down in the first 10 seconds of battle, at which point he can either immediately rape your measly gateway army, or retreat with minimal damage and hit you when his production cycle pops, before you can build your colo numbers back up. Combine it with forcefields. Anyway I wouldn't mind if they made it so that AA couldn't target the collosus. Vikings/corrupters vs collosus are very uninterresting. Might need a few other tweaks to make this work balance wise.
If you rely on forcefield to keep terran away from your flanking colossi, then your sentries won't be positioned to keep terran inside firing range, and they will just run away after you've dumped sentry energy. At that point, you can only continue pushing for a short while before you have no energy, and terran can just rape your flanking colossi.
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I think we could go a long way towards fixing the colossus by making them unable to walk over units or cliffs BUT make it a cool-down ability (it could have a cool animation where it gets taller). Then it would do AoE damage to all ground (allied inc.) it walks over.
Why?
One of the reasons the Toss death-ball is so ez (and why playing against Toss can be so infuriating), is that it's so forgiving from an army control standpoint. You basically have to get a sick flank off as Terran/Zerg just to make it an even fight, let alone win it easily, and even if they don't see you until you're right on top of their units they can re-arrange extremely easily (zealot charge, stalker blink back, colossus unit walk, sentry FF, don't insult micro by trying to claim this is difficult, I'm a random player, you can't fool me  ) If Toss can't re-arrange as easily, then it'd actually matter if Terran/Zerg can surprise their opponent. So if Toss want's to not lose their Colossi because their 60apm didn't permit them to notice the incoming hordes, now they have to choose between AoE their entire army to move them back or simply keeping them up front where they're most ineffective/exposed.
Why this won't affect high level balance (after all, this discussion really has nothing to do with high level play...)
The race with invisible observer units that does the least marching their army all over the map should be able at a pro level to know roughly where their opponent is and arrange their army accordingly. If Colossus can't walk over friendly it probably would make it easier because they'd hold their position in a formation better. I'm sorry but I don't think that not letting your Colossus walk out in front is too much to ask of even a platinum player, so if they can handle that the game is really not much different. It'd make Toss more like old BW T mech, where positioning was everything and failing to get your spider mines the perfect distance from your tanks and sieging up effectively resulted in blowing yourself up, but if done correctly it's virtually impossible to beat in a heads up fight. I wouldn't mind that one bit.
Why it might add something interesting to the game
Anybody remember SV eraser moves? How about a warp prism and a colossus fly into a base (similar gas cost to old HT drop) and the colossi walks around your mineral line? It'd be a funny no energy harassment that P has always complained about not having 
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Remove the AoE from Colossus.
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How about we make polls and threads to get it removed. QQ
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EPT
