EPThow to fix the colossus? - Page 10
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SnipedSoul
Canada2158 Posts
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Phoobie
Canada120 Posts
-Attack speed reduced by 15% Makes it's attacks more about burst rather then clean sweaping the ground -Range increased to 10 better poke and sieging potential, supports more positional based play -No longer ignores unit collision help spread out the death ball a bit -Reduce movement speed to 2.15 a weakness of colossus based play, more vulnerable to counter attack -Health and/or Shields increased tougher to compensate for unit collision and slower speed, may also make worth while for drops. just my thoughts | ||
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reminisce12
Australia318 Posts
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convention
United States622 Posts
On September 21 2012 23:59 reminisce12 wrote: the weakness for conventional rts siege unit was their mobility or lack of it, the colossus completely breaks that law thus theres no fixing it when it simply does not follow the fundamental laws of a siege unit. Because no other RTS game has changed siege units weakness from low mobility to can be hit by long range AA units, then it must be fundamentally broken? Just because it isn't a conventional siege unit, doesn't mean it is broken, it just means it is an unconventional siege unit. In response for mobility, it was given a huge glaring weakness that you see exploited very often by terran players (hover vikings over dead air space and pick off a collosi before the battle). Conventional RTS workers cost money and last unit they are killed by other units. MULES mine really quickly then die after a set time and don't cost money. Does that make MULES fundamentally broken? | ||
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trbot
Canada142 Posts
On September 21 2012 21:24 YumYumGranola wrote: I think we could go a long way towards fixing the colossus by making them unable to walk over units or cliffs BUT make it a cool-down ability (it could have a cool animation where it gets taller). Then it would do AoE damage to all ground (allied inc.) it walks over. Why? One of the reasons the Toss death-ball is so ez (and why playing against Toss can be so infuriating), is that it's so forgiving from an army control standpoint. You basically have to get a sick flank off as Terran/Zerg just to make it an even fight, let alone win it easily, and even if they don't see you until you're right on top of their units they can re-arrange extremely easily (zealot charge, stalker blink back, colossus unit walk, sentry FF, don't insult micro by trying to claim this is difficult, I'm a random player, you can't fool me  ) If Toss can't re-arrange as easily, then it'd actually matter if Terran/Zerg can surprise their opponent. So if Toss want's to not lose their Colossi because their 60apm didn't permit them to notice the incoming hordes, now they have to choose between AoE their entire army to move them back or simply keeping them up front where they're most ineffective/exposed.Why this won't affect high level balance (after all, this discussion really has nothing to do with high level play...) The race with invisible observer units that does the least marching their army all over the map should be able at a pro level to know roughly where their opponent is and arrange their army accordingly. If Colossus can't walk over friendly it probably would make it easier because they'd hold their position in a formation better. I'm sorry but I don't think that not letting your Colossus walk out in front is too much to ask of even a platinum player, so if they can handle that the game is really not much different. It'd make Toss more like old BW T mech, where positioning was everything and failing to get your spider mines the perfect distance from your tanks and sieging up effectively resulted in blowing yourself up, but if done correctly it's virtually impossible to beat in a heads up fight. I wouldn't mind that one bit. Why it might add something interesting to the game Anybody remember SV eraser moves? How about a warp prism and a colossus fly into a base (similar gas cost to old HT drop) and the colossi walks around your mineral line? It'd be a funny no energy harassment that P has always complained about not having  You've shown in this post that you didn't understand the conversation up until now. This is a strict nerf to the colossus, and it comes off as QQ. Anyone worth listening to in this thread knows this is not a balance discussion. The fact that you're a random player doesn't legitimize your argument, either... Your play style might just favour protoss play. If you're floating in bronze-mid diamond, I can see why you'd think this. Of course, you'd be wrong. You say protoss army control is forgiving, but that's nonsense. One small mistake in positioning will result in you losing the backbone of your army to 9-range viking missiles or emp. Once this backbone is rendered useless, you die instantly. You can't run, since terran and zerg armies are substantially faster than you. No one cares if you can save your 12 stalkers. As for forgiving army control, how about terran's ability to stim and run away whenever they like? By the way, I play with over 100a/epm, without any spam whatsoever. The fact that I can't save my armies from terran hordes has nothing to do with my ability to notice what's going on or react in time. It has everything to do with the facts that on wide-open maps, your units are 50% faster than mine when stimmed, and you can form a gigantic concave instantly (at which point splash becomes rather ineffective), and that on more congested maps, your vikings float over impassable terrain, firing from impunity. | ||
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Warpath
Canada1242 Posts
time to split and dodge against, retains strong aoe. | ||
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di3alot
172 Posts
[QUOTE]On September 21 2012 23:59 reminisce12 wrote: MULES mine really quickly then die after a set time and don't cost money. Does that make MULES fundamentally broken?[/QUOTE] yes the game balances himself for the most part. but the mule is a broken mechanics in certain situations like warpins and larva. | ||
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
On September 21 2012 22:45 Phoobie wrote: Make it a true tough siege unit, -Attack speed reduced by 15% Makes it's attacks more about burst rather then clean sweaping the ground -Range increased to 10 better poke and sieging potential, supports more positional based play -No longer ignores unit collision help spread out the death ball a bit -Reduce movement speed to 2.15 a weakness of colossus based play, more vulnerable to counter attack -Health and/or Shields increased tougher to compensate for unit collision and slower speed, may also make worth while for drops. just my thoughts this is exactly what i believe the colossus should be as well | ||
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Umami
United States23 Posts
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
On September 22 2012 04:20 a176 wrote: this is exactly what i believe the colossus should be as well I agree, I hated the change where they decreased the damage and increased the firing rate. If you make the colossus more immobile in addition, it needs to be tougher against air attacks to compensate, otherwise protoss will get rolled by vikings. | ||
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-fj.
Samoa462 Posts
How about this. The best game designs tell a story, work as fair rules in the greater game system, and last but not least, are built around the technology that drives the game, not the other way around. The Spartan Laser from Halo 3 is an example of a design element that works well with the existing technology. Due to latency, FPS games are often plagued by confusing or impossible situations when each client's game world diverges. But the charge time before it fires allows all clients to synchronize the firing event - this reduces the possibility of divergence or "lag". Not only that, but it tells a story too, about the strength and cutting-edge nature of the weapon. And again, it's fair, both players can see the charge happening and react to the coming firing event, making the weapon fit into the game without setting anything out of balance. I would argue that the same could be done for the colossus. While there are questions of nerfs to 1a colossus users and possible buffs to professional colossus users that could upset matchups, isn't this what you wanted anyway? Make the colossus have to charge before firing. 1.5x damage and 1.5x reload time. Give the user a button and key that signals the colossus to begin charging. make the charge process visible to both players. Allow the colossus user to give his colossus separate targets individually while they are charging if he wishes. Allow the opposing player to cancel the attack by moving out of range. | ||
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
On September 22 2012 05:11 -fj. wrote: Make the colossus have to charge before firing. 1.5x damage and 1.5x reload time. Give the user a button and key that signals the colossus to begin charging. make the charge process visible to both players. Allow the colossus user to give his colossus separate targets individually while they are charging if he wishes. Allow the opposing player to cancel the attack by moving out of range. Okay you kind of took a round-about path by using the Halo example (<3 spartan laser), but I have always thought that this would make an infinitely more exciting AND skillful colossus, for both players. I'm glad others are with me. ^^ | ||
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trbot
Canada142 Posts
On September 22 2012 05:42 EatThePath wrote: Okay you kind of took a round-about path by using the Halo example (<3 spartan laser), but I have always thought that this would make an infinitely more exciting AND skillful colossus, for both players. I'm glad others are with me. ^^ This actually sounds kinda useless versus terran... You start charging... Terran (a) laughs at the fact that your main damage dealers are now firing slower, stims his marauders, and kills your colossi with marauders and vikings and you lose, or (b) kills a bunch of your gateway units then runs away, negating your charge, only to return a few second later and repeat. Besides that, how is 1.5x damage going to help you fight a bio army? No one will use this charging ability, because it will still be 2 colo hits to kill a marine (but more time in between shots for them to kill your shit before dying), and not much different versus marauders. It just gives terran more time to split units and avoid splash damage, or to use the insane DPS of marauders to work down colossi before they can get off more than a shot or two. Reavers are a much better idea than this. | ||
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trbot
Canada142 Posts
On September 21 2012 22:45 SnipedSoul wrote: It should be a lot slower and suffer from some degree of overkill. A deathball isn't too bad if it's slow as hell. Overkill would mean you have to micro your collosus or they'll all shoot at the two flanking marauders. This is how things currently work... Stalkers, immos and colossi do suffer from overkill. Notably unlike your siege tanks, by the way... In fact, siege tanks are the only unit in the game to have smart fire, which eliminates overkill. | ||
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
On September 22 2012 05:49 trbot wrote: This actually sounds kinda useless versus terran... You start charging... Terran (a) laughs at the fact that your main damage dealers are now firing slower, stims his marauders, and kills your colossi with marauders and vikings and you lose, or (b) kills a bunch of your gateway units then runs away, negating your charge, only to return a few second later and repeat. Besides that, how is 1.5x damage going to help you fight a bio army? No one will use this charging ability, because it will still be 2 colo hits to kill a marine (but more time in between shots for them to kill your shit before dying), and not much different versus marauders. It just gives terran more time to split units and avoid splash damage, or to use the insane DPS of marauders to work down colossi before they can get off more than a shot or two. Reavers are a much better idea than this. The idea is just a warm-up time before a shot is fired. Obviously you would need to adjust the damage and timing to make it playable. The more one-shot a unit is, the more space-control it is. (It is hard to attack into it.) I don't think shuttle reaver would add anything to TvP engagements, it would just be (much) better for harass. | ||
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Zinnwaldite
Norway1567 Posts
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Herect
Brazil216 Posts
- It is really easy to use. You make them, they fry everything and that's it. It can be cool in your first games, but after that it is just feels boring. - They require a macro response instead of a micro/tatical response. If you know they're going collossi, you need Vikings or Corruptors. And then it's over. You die if you don't get enough Viking and you win if you get the right amount. That's it by the Terran's side. I think ANY unit that have splash damgage should be really hard to use. Eitheir requiring positioning/setitng up or heavy micro. The same with Hard Counters... If a unit really kills something ridiculous fast, it should require good micro to do it. In general, i really don't like the idea of giving easier gameplay to units that have great impact on the field. Roaches, Marauders and wtv T1 units can be a-move caralessy, but units that can kill your army within 1 or 2 seconds shouldn't be a-move friendly at all. | ||
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rezoacken
Canada2719 Posts
If you want to change something don't make the unit weaker, just make it different. For example I would try: Slower with collision, no longer targetable by air-air weapons. | ||
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P7GAB
Canada486 Posts
On September 21 2012 22:45 Phoobie wrote: Make it a true tough siege unit, -Attack speed reduced by 15% Makes it's attacks more about burst rather then clean sweaping the ground -Range increased to 10 better poke and sieging potential, supports more positional based play -No longer ignores unit collision help spread out the death ball a bit -Reduce movement speed to 2.15 a weakness of colossus based play, more vulnerable to counter attack -Health and/or Shields increased tougher to compensate for unit collision and slower speed, may also make worth while for drops. just my thoughts add in no longer targetable by AA | ||
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wcr.4fun
Belgium686 Posts
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