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On September 15 2012 17:19 -NegativeZero- wrote:
Increase its attack damage so it can at least 1 shot marines and workers, but increase the cooldown so it is more effective and more feasible to manually target each shot to get the maximum AoE damage.
haha genius idea, describing the state before the first change done to colossus happened because they were to easy to micro. Well played.
Personally i find the colossus more micro intensive then the reaver. Shuttle reaver of course is more micro intensive, but not taking the reaver with you in a shuttle and drop them when you meet the opponent.
At the end the colossus is a perfectly fine morph of the lurker into the sc2 world matching the sc2 pathfinding ai for huge damage if the opponent attacks without any form of positioning and of course a run over if the colossus isn't targetfired properly. Sounds like a perfect description of the lurker to me. Yeah Blizzard stole pretty obvious from bw.
The reaver port into sc2 was way to good though was nerfed heavily and moved to a lower tier for that, but that made it almost useless and we see it only occasionally and welks its not on the protoss side anymore.
Oh and i think the infestor took over the role of the unit that most people want to see changed. Atleast when they made a question round in one tournament about: "what unit would you want to have changed?" The infestor was the unit that got the most picks.
Of course that were only pros that were asked, so not a large pool of opinions.
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On September 15 2012 20:21 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 17:19 -NegativeZero- wrote:
Increase its attack damage so it can at least 1 shot marines and workers, but increase the cooldown so it is more effective and more feasible to manually target each shot to get the maximum AoE damage. haha genius idea, describing the state before the first change done to colossus happened because they were to easy to micro. Well played. Personally i find the colossus more micro intensive then the reaver. Shuttle reaver of course is more micro intensive, but not taking the reaver with you in a shuttle and drop them when you meet the opponent. At the end the colossus is a perfectly fine morph of the lurker into the sc2 world matching the sc2 pathfinding ai for huge damage if the opponent attacks without any form of positioning and of course a run over if the colossus isn't targetfired properly. Sounds like a perfect description of the lurker to me. Yeah Blizzard stole pretty obvious from bw. The reaver port into sc2 was way to good though was nerfed heavily and moved to a lower tier for that, but that made it almost useless and we see it only occasionally and welks its not on the protoss side anymore. Oh and i think the infestor took over the role of the unit that most people want to see changed. Atleast when they made a question round in one tournament about: "what unit would you want to have changed?" The infestor was the unit that got the most picks. Of course that were only pros that were asked, so not a large pool of opinions.
doubt you ever microed reaver properly...
also the units further away from the lurker were able to dodge the shot with proper micro, as far as i know you cant dodge the collosus shot after the shoot animation began
ps: my idea is a collosus shoot thats attack animation is slower and shoots in a line so units that are at the end of the line can dodge the shot (comparable to lurker attack) also the shoot should be a little bit stronger in damage but slower reload speed and maybe you can see the "reload" animation (maybe the lasers charging)
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An idea i had for the Colossus that isn't so outlandish is give the Colossus a slow acceleration, so that when it starts to move or when it stops moving, it takes some time for it to get up to speed. The shot should also be more powerful but shoot more slowly, requiring the Colossus to come to a complete stop and "charge up" for a moment before releasing a powerful laser barrage.
I think this would make the unit more micro-intensive, as it would have to be babysat a little bit more, and the shot would be more interesting and fun to spectate, since it will do heavier damage like a Reaver, so each shot matters more.
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On September 15 2012 17:19 -NegativeZero- wrote:
Increase its attack damage so it can at least 1 shot marines and workers, but increase the cooldown so it is more effective and more feasible to manually target each shot to get the maximum AoE damage.
This is probably best change because it's simple and effective.
If the Colossus can one shot workers, it will finally be worthwhile for  to harass with them via Warp prism micro (and maybe we can see the return of the iconic Shuttle harass). Nerfing attk-cooldown to compensate would keep its DPS in check.
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On September 15 2012 20:21 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 17:19 -NegativeZero- wrote:
Increase its attack damage so it can at least 1 shot marines and workers, but increase the cooldown so it is more effective and more feasible to manually target each shot to get the maximum AoE damage. haha genius idea, describing the state before the first change done to colossus happened because they were to easy to micro. Well played. Personally i find the colossus more micro intensive then the reaver. Shuttle reaver of course is more micro intensive, but not taking the reaver with you in a shuttle and drop them when you meet the opponent. At the end the colossus is a perfectly fine morph of the lurker into the sc2 world matching the sc2 pathfinding ai for huge damage if the opponent attacks without any form of positioning and of course a run over if the colossus isn't targetfired properly. Sounds like a perfect description of the lurker to me. Yeah Blizzard stole pretty obvious from bw. The reaver port into sc2 was way to good though was nerfed heavily and moved to a lower tier for that, but that made it almost useless and we see it only occasionally and welks its not on the protoss side anymore. Oh and i think the infestor took over the role of the unit that most people want to see changed. Atleast when they made a question round in one tournament about: "what unit would you want to have changed?" The infestor was the unit that got the most picks. Of course that were only pros that were asked, so not a large pool of opinions.
The lurker had to burrow everytime it wanted to attack, it took up HUGE space in your army and it deals damage in a line in front of it, damage which can be dodged. How is that similar to a unit which can walk over cliffs, doesn't take up space in an army, doesn't require positioning (aside from, hur dur retreat when focused by vikings and keep walking over army at all time) and deals damage in a line perpendicular to a line connecting the collusus and his attacking point; and the damage can not be evaded.
Collussus more micro intense than the reaver, lol'd. Even if you're not using it in a shuttle it's more micro intense. The collusus doesn't have any micro besides right clicking shit and moving it back when it's get focused. Stop imagining collusus micro please! The reaver takes up a lot of space, you need to remake scarabs, and you need to focus it's fire if you want any 'sick' damage done with it. You can't retreat it when it gets focus fired cause it can barely move on it's own so positioning is incredibly important. So anyone competent is always taking it with shuttles unless you're defending a base with them.
The infestor is a terrible unit, I'd love to see it get changed or removed and other zerg units buffed because of it.
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I agree coll should be nerfed, it does what storm do without micro.
Im not sure how to fix it tho. Make it more expensive and increase build time might work somewhat.
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all you need to be able to do is dodge the swipes like you could lurker shots
you just need to set it up so one perfectly microed stim marine backed up by 1 medivac can kill a colossus
in large macro battles it will be practically impossible to dodge every swipe even if you are marineking
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Northern Ireland25749 Posts
The ideas about attack dodging and the likes are good. First and foremost a small tweak I'd like to see would be make them slower so they can't get pace with the rest of the ball. This way you force repositioning and good control on the Protoss player, and will separate good from bad.
I can't see them (sadly) getting rid of the unit or radically redesigning it, but tweaking it a little is worth a go
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Colossi already are slower than the rest of the ball. Chargelots (2.75) and Stalkers (2.9531) both move faster than Colossi (2.25).
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United States4883 Posts
I agree that the colossus is flawed and probably the biggest problem with SC2. However, I think it's far too late to rebalance or remove the colossus, so we're stuck with it. If anything, I think if Blizzard continues to push positional units like SH and Spider Mines, the game will evolve into a state in which colossus numbers are thinned out (something we're actually already seeing, excluding PvP). In the end, the thing I'm MORE worried about is the colossus actually becoming completely useless and underused.
On September 16 2012 04:10 petrie911 wrote:
Colossi already are slower than the rest of the ball. Chargelots (2.75) and Stalkers (2.9531) both move faster than Colossi (2.25).
Those are silly stats lol. The fact that all of protoss has movement speed and attack speed all within about second variation of each other means that they just fit into a ball better. When we compare this to stimmed marines/tanks/medivacs or Broodlord/corruptor/infestor, we get 3 REALLY distinctive speeds.
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They want to have casual friendly units in game as they stated it many times before. I belive there is no chance for colossus change sadly.
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On September 15 2012 17:18 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
Yes I know I just describe the Reaver but if you asked ever Protoss player what they would want 99% of them would say Reavers over Colossus. Though Blizzard won't remove for some reason or another I really don't know.
Reaver scarabs with sc2 pathing =/ No thanks.
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maybe in LOTV..one at least can hope, for sure it won't get to SC3 lol
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A change I always had in midn was changing its upgrades to air since it works more like an air unit than a ground unit. This way you had to commit a bit more when you go colossus instead of ht. Also it prepares for the carrier transition (lategame pvz). I think its easily understandable cause it already can be hit by air, moves like an air unit, gives vision like an airunit from high ground (it attacks and gets revealed unlike groundunits), give vision like an airunit (give highgroundvision) etc
what do you think on this take?
Cause i dont think Blizzard will change the colossus with cooldowns/design of the attack. its easily done and has a huge impact. it also helps you scouting against protoss. "he is upgrading in cybercore? he must be going colossus"
you could also trick your opponent like done in tvX with banshee cloak. research hallucination instead of airattack to trick him to think you go colossus
what do you think?
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On September 15 2012 17:18 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
[...] if you asked ever Protoss player what they would want 99% of them would say Reavers over Colossus. Though Blizzard won't remove for some reason or another I really don't know.
The warhound was imba as hell, didn't feel mechy at all, was a second marauder and was removed after 1 week of beta. STILL a lot of people went into full QQ mode as it happened and wanted it back. Just check the thread about its removal. Most people would probably think that everyone hated the warhound, but once it actually got removed a lot of people showed up and complained.
Now, the colossus. Since 2 years the backbone of every protoss army, extremly noob friendly and easy to controll. You say 99% would want the reaver over colossi? The truth is that it is probably the other way around.
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On September 16 2012 04:19 SC2John wrote:I agree that the colossus is flawed and probably the biggest problem with SC2. However, I think it's far too late to rebalance or remove the colossus, so we're stuck with it. If anything, I think if Blizzard continues to push positional units like SH and Spider Mines, the game will evolve into a state in which colossus numbers are thinned out (something we're actually already seeing, excluding PvP). In the end, the thing I'm MORE worried about is the colossus actually becoming completely useless and underused. Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 04:10 petrie911 wrote:
Colossi already are slower than the rest of the ball. Chargelots (2.75) and Stalkers (2.9531) both move faster than Colossi (2.25). Those are silly stats lol. The fact that all of protoss has movement speed and attack speed all within about second variation of each other means that they just fit into a ball better. When we compare this to stimmed marines/tanks/medivacs or Broodlord/corruptor/infestor, we get 3 REALLY distinctive speeds.
Ok I'm sorry, but if you really think that terran units have more variable movespeeds than toss, you are mistaken. There is a reason why it's called a bioball. Stim changes speeds sure, but that's a bonus, not a detriment.
Marine- 2.25
Marauder- 2.25
Ghost- 2.25
Tank- 2.25
Raven- 2.25
Medivac- 2.5
Viking- 2.75
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On September 16 2012 04:55 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 04:19 SC2John wrote:I agree that the colossus is flawed and probably the biggest problem with SC2. However, I think it's far too late to rebalance or remove the colossus, so we're stuck with it. If anything, I think if Blizzard continues to push positional units like SH and Spider Mines, the game will evolve into a state in which colossus numbers are thinned out (something we're actually already seeing, excluding PvP). In the end, the thing I'm MORE worried about is the colossus actually becoming completely useless and underused. On September 16 2012 04:10 petrie911 wrote:
Colossi already are slower than the rest of the ball. Chargelots (2.75) and Stalkers (2.9531) both move faster than Colossi (2.25). Those are silly stats lol. The fact that all of protoss has movement speed and attack speed all within about second variation of each other means that they just fit into a ball better. When we compare this to stimmed marines/tanks/medivacs or Broodlord/corruptor/infestor, we get 3 REALLY distinctive speeds. Ok I'm sorry, but if you really think that terran units have more variable movespeeds than toss, you are mistaken. There is a reason why it's called a bioball. Stim changes speeds sure, but that's a bonus, not a detriment. Marine- 2.25 Marauder- 2.25 Ghost- 2.25 Tank- 2.25 Raven- 2.25 Medivac- 2.5 Viking- 2.75
and now add the time the siege unit (tank) needs until it can attack. and then add the 0 seconds the siege unit (colossus) needs until it can attack. colossus needs to be more of a siege unit. either a lot slower (BL like) or needs to siege before attacking (tank like). would add a lot more positional play and a lot more space control (especially in PvP you wouldnt need to build mass colossi).
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Its no wonder we hate colossus so much, it is the only long range splash damage unit in the history of starcraft which basically requires no micro or targeting. Its not hard to figure out, just make it strong but more diifficult to be useful.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Raven is 2.5 speed now in hots beta
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EPT
