was i the only one watching a TSL PvZ finals, where the Protoss did pretty much FFE into Stargate every single game? (Maybe not exactly all of them, but most at least) If you can win a TSL with a Stargate opening as your core strategy vs Zerg, can it really be that bad?
I also blame the weakness of Zerg anti-air for the weakness of protoss air, as if the hydra was a viable T1 massable unit, stronger air units for Protoss would be viable. And the tech switch problem is actually funny, since before the time when Zerg has 20 bases, all tech and every single upgrade in the game, Protoss is actually most of the times better in tech switching, given the chrono boost mechanics (which requires less production facilities), shared upgrades on all ground units and the fact that 5 core units can just be produced as required in five seconds. I have died to more blink stalker into Zealot tech switches (or vice-versa) than you could think of, because Protoss can just in the blink of an eye reproduce whatever Gateway unit they need to hard counter my army, as long as i don't have a unit that does only get soft countered by Gateway units (aka Brood Lords). Whereas if you really try to tech switch, you will suddenly sit without upgrades. Try to win with your just tech switched 0/0 Mutas vs 3/1/3 Stalkers, it ain't gonna happen. And as for ground forces, nowadays Zerg already has to pretty much do triple upgrades to be able to keep up with the tech switching of Gateway units (Zerglings vs Stalkers, Roaches vs Zealots). Bring the wrong one to the fight, or the right one unupgraded, and you will still lose badly.
TL;DR: Asymmetric design is cool in a few ways, but too much asymmetric design forces units to suck, and races to feel boring or broken. Blizzard could take away a few of the really crucial ones (warping in all over the map, the swarm having no swarm-like anti-air and such things, even blink and burrow movement wouldn't be bad to remove) and in return buff the core units. They tried to do too much fancy things that sounded cool, but should have kept them for the campaign instead.
On September 12 2012 00:31 arcHoniC wrote: Maybe this is obvious but the meta game has shifted towards an all in type of style for protoss due to the strength of warping in reinforcements. This creates an attacking advantage which pushes the meta game towards timings and the like. If HotS wasn't coming out it could very well be that all the timings could be figured out and protoss would be forced into playing a bit differently, unfortunately the expansion will have a sort of reset of the meta and a ton of new timings will come out that will delay the trend of all inning.
I personally think that the main problem toss is having is just a boring late game composition. unfortunately this doesn't look like it is being addressed in HotS.
I think that protoss has one of the most exciting late game compositions along with terran. Protoss generally have a very diverse amount of units that use every tech path. Terran similarly will have a very diverse army composition. If you want to talk about boring late game compositions, I think you have to say that is zerg.
And the PvZ metagame isn't timing attacks because of warpgame, it's because of how powerful zerg lategame compositions are, and how strong zerg gets with an undamage economy (although there are some protoss, such as Creator and HerO who just do light harass into expansions, and they are both very strong PvZ so it's possible to not have to do a timing attack). PvT has a good mixture of all ins, timing attacks, and defensive macro play.
On September 12 2012 00:50 UntoTheBreach wrote: Fixing Toss shouldn't be that difficult. A few things are missing:
- The other races get buffs to staple units like hydras and helions. We get none. - Our new units suck. Make them as good as vipers and the swarm host. To do this, give a buff to the mothership core and bring cloak back on the oracle. - Even if you don't restore cloak to the oracle, something will need to be done about dark templars to make them worth using despite the high gas requirements of the new units. They need a huge buff to stay in the game. Maybe make the gas cost of them low.
DTs are one of the most powerful late game harass units (I'd say reapers are also up there with lategame harass potential). Almost all games that go to the lategame will have DTs harassing mineral lines. If you reduced their gas cost, well... I don't think toss would ever lose in the lategame just because of sheer harassing potential.
The oracle with cloaking field is definitely a little bit too strong. You would have cloaking field before zerg will usually have detection. You could argue that zerg should just prebuild spores everywhere, but I think building spores should be able to be done as a reaction of "I scout DT shrine building, I should have detection at every base", instead of "he has the potential to get mass cloak before I have lair, I'll have to have spores everywhere in case he does that"
I don't think it's a bad thing that zergs should have to build a lair if protoss is building starport. Part of the problem with the current state of the game is that zerg doesn't need to react much in early game versus toss as long as toss is FFEing. Versus say toss having to build a robo throughout all of WoL in PvT incase of banshees. There's nothing wrong with forcing a reaction from your opponent who might overreact or under-appreciate the situation, it adds more elements to the game than waiting till eight minutes to get lair to give your mass roaches roach speed for the win.
On September 11 2012 15:03 Havik_ wrote: Didn't the Tempest used to have air to air AOE?? Maybe to make the unit not crap they could bring that back and reduce the range of the unit to 15 or 14 so that its actually scary, worth the cost, and can be used in the late game to protect Colossi or something. The 15 range on a ground attack would also help deal with lategame tanks. Might be a bit much for some people, but Protoss is so weak in the current version of HOTS. And for LoTV they need to look at redesigning the whole damn race, if not sooner. I'd be glad to give up warp gate, and/or forcefield if the Protoss units were actually STRONGand lived up to the philosophy of the race.
This was way, way back in some alpha build for HotS that Blizzard demoed on some convention, I believe it was Blizzcon 2011. At the time, they were worried about a recent shift in the PvZ metagame in which Zerg players would just mass a ton of mutalisks and kill Protoss while Protoss seemed to have no answer for the strategy; they thought a new unit, which they'd call the Tempest, could fix that problem in HotS as a capital ship that had an air-to-air attack with splash damage and some form of air-to-ground attack. Here's a video for you to see what they were thinking of:
The Tempest as a crazy range siege unit is an entirely different concept; they scrapped the idea of needing an anti-air AoE capital ship when mass mutas stopped looking unstoppable in WoL (in part thanks to their addition of the range upgrade for Phoenix). The only things the current Tempest has in common with that other, old Tempest are their names and their artwork; their roles are completely different.
Yeah, but air to air aoe would still be good and unique. Toss already has enough ground aoe, so air to air would be nice. Better than a 22 range gimmicky unit with no dps. The problem with Protoss is nothing really had good DPS except the Carrier, but that got taken out :p
In terms of DPS per cost, the Zealot, DT, Immortal (vs. armored), Colossus & Archon (both of these when hitting 3+ units) are the heavy hitting Protoss units, not the Carrier. Without upgrades (or if the enemy matches your attack upgrades with their armor upgrades), the Carrier's cost/DPS is actually higher (worse) than that of the Stalker, and that's even assuming a 0 armor target and not counting the Stalker's damage bonus vs. armored. + Show Spoiler [math] +
For reference, the Tempest's cost/DPS is roughly 150% higher than that of the Carrier and Stalker vs. Light units, meaning that you need 2.5 times as many resources spent on Tempests to match the DPS of a given amount of resources spent on Stalkers or Carriers.
On September 12 2012 00:31 arcHoniC wrote: Maybe this is obvious but the meta game has shifted towards an all in type of style for protoss due to the strength of warping in reinforcements. This creates an attacking advantage which pushes the meta game towards timings and the like. If HotS wasn't coming out it could very well be that all the timings could be figured out and protoss would be forced into playing a bit differently, unfortunately the expansion will have a sort of reset of the meta and a ton of new timings will come out that will delay the trend of all inning.
I personally think that the main problem toss is having is just a boring late game composition. unfortunately this doesn't look like it is being addressed in HotS.
I think that protoss has one of the most exciting late game compositions along with terran. Protoss generally have a very diverse amount of units that use every tech path. Terran similarly will have a very diverse army composition. If you want to talk about boring late game compositions, I think you have to say that is zerg.
And the PvZ metagame isn't timing attacks because of warpgame, it's because of how powerful zerg lategame compositions are, and how strong zerg gets with an undamage economy (although there are some protoss, such as Creator and HerO who just do light harass into expansions, and they are both very strong PvZ so it's possible to not have to do a timing attack). PvT has a good mixture of all ins, timing attacks, and defensive macro play.
On September 12 2012 00:50 UntoTheBreach wrote: Fixing Toss shouldn't be that difficult. A few things are missing:
- The other races get buffs to staple units like hydras and helions. We get none. - Our new units suck. Make them as good as vipers and the swarm host. To do this, give a buff to the mothership core and bring cloak back on the oracle. - Even if you don't restore cloak to the oracle, something will need to be done about dark templars to make them worth using despite the high gas requirements of the new units. They need a huge buff to stay in the game. Maybe make the gas cost of them low.
DTs are one of the most powerful late game harass units (I'd say reapers are also up there with lategame harass potential). Almost all games that go to the lategame will have DTs harassing mineral lines. If you reduced their gas cost, well... I don't think toss would ever lose in the lategame just because of sheer harassing potential.
The oracle with cloaking field is definitely a little bit too strong. You would have cloaking field before zerg will usually have detection. You could argue that zerg should just prebuild spores everywhere, but I think building spores should be able to be done as a reaction of "I scout DT shrine building, I should have detection at every base", instead of "he has the potential to get mass cloak before I have lair, I'll have to have spores everywhere in case he does that"
I don't think it's a bad thing that zergs should have to build a lair if protoss is building starport. Part of the problem with the current state of the game is that zerg doesn't need to react much in early game versus toss as long as toss is FFEing. Versus say toss having to build a robo throughout all of WoL in PvT incase of banshees. There's nothing wrong with forcing a reaction from your opponent who might overreact or under-appreciate the situation, it adds more elements to the game than waiting till eight minutes to get lair to give your mass roaches roach speed for the win.
I do agree with you about forcing reactions, but I feel like missing a scout on the starport seems like it would be straight up game ending, whereas missing the DT shrine/cloakshees, you still would have a bit of time. You will take a lot of damage, but it isn't completely game over. With energize from the mothership core gives the oracle full energy, which is probably two cloaking fields on two bases which will die so fast since you can't attack their units. It isn't like a DT where it is four units hacking away, it's an entire army which is rampaging your bases.
On the other hand, you should be able to scout the mothership core with full energy, see that they have a low use of gas in terms of scouted units/tech, that you could anticipate that sort of attack. They could make that spell an upgrade to make getting it a more significant investment, such that to get it early limits the number of units, but still adds some defensive strength to the oracle later in the game when every base is mostly locked down from oracle harass.
I agree whole-heartedly with the OP (even though I think the mommaship cores still has potential). I was SO hoping for a new early / mid game fighting unit, of ANY kind, what a disappointment.
Making our race less gimmicky would be nice as well but that doesn't sound feasible.
I still love Starcraft but damn, I hope LOTV will deliver <3
On September 11 2012 21:54 hecticSc wrote: EASY Protoss fix, give us back zealot legs from BW, give us dark templar on templar archives ! DONE Protoss can now stand toe to toe with t and z.
But... charge is zealot legs?
It's a passive, permanent speed boost on top of the charge ability.
It's nothing like the BW speed boost though. In BW, Speedlots would fly across the map lol.
On September 11 2012 23:51 neversummer wrote: 1. Not high level 2. Does not play HotS (and hasn't played WoL for a long time) 3. /thread
I play WoL on a pretty high level very frequently and pretty much agree with many points he pointed out 100%. Alsofor example Harsteem who is a pretty highlevel Protoss pretty much agreed completely.
So please shut the fuck up next time.
HOLY SHIT you play WoL at a pretty high level pretty frequently and pretty much agree with many of the points he made 100% (60% of the time, it works every time amiright?). Oh and wait, your friend who I've never heard of nor will ever hear of is also a pretty high level toss and pretty much agrees with pretty much everything the OP said as well, pretty much?
Yea, I'll go ahead and stfu next time. GL in life sir.
Well to be fair Harstem is in fact a competitive dutch protoss player.
Edit: In other news, I disagree with just about every change suggested by the post above me. Tempest damage shouldn't be huge, it's just a silly unit that would be a broken unit if it had good damage. DT's are fine as they are, reducing their damage would be horrible because they wouldn't one shot workers. I like the idea of cloak back onto the oracle though.
DTs actually do pretty insane damage, so if they were to receive buffs in some other way (reduced cost, giving them a special ability, etc.), you could reduce their damage and they'd still hit really hard. If you think they should continue to be able to 1-shot workers and Marines (I know I do), then their damage can be reduced by increasing their attack cooldown a bit.
I just wanted to pop in here and say that i've been playing protoss, since, well forever. But over the past 2-3 weeks i've slowly made the switch to Zerg in preparation for HotS since they are just infinately more interesting. I'm not high ranked, i'm platinum, but even i, who don't know jack about balancing compared to a grandmaster level player, can't see myself using any of the new protoss units :/
DT's need a buff or they're not going to be used. Already they're hardly ever used apart from cheese. If the new units ever become viable, then the DT's will go the way of the dodo.
DT's could be buffed by lowering the gas requirement. Maybe even have them pure minerals -- say 200 a piece. Maybe lower the DPS slightly. This is not such a crazy idea if you think about it. Terran have helions and all kinds of units that could stop a DT army. Zerg have banelings, infestors, roaches and all kinds. But Toss would have a new gateway strategy!
Come on, admit it. It's a brilliant idea. All Toss players want this DT buff.
On September 12 2012 03:09 UntoTheBreach wrote: DT's need a buff or they're not going to be used. Already they're hardly ever used apart from cheese. If the new units ever become viable, then the DT's will go the way of the dodo.
DT's could be buffed by lowering the gas requirement. Maybe even have them pure minerals -- say 200 a piece. Maybe lower the DPS slightly. This is not such a crazy idea if you think about it. Terran have helions and all kinds of units that could stop a DT army. Zerg have banelings, infestors, roaches and all kinds. But Toss would have a new gateway strategy!
Come on, admit it. It's a brilliant idea. All Toss players want this DT buff.
400m for an Archon sounds like it could be really OP though. I'll admit it's an interesting idea, but you'd probably want to remove their Archon Warp ability if you were to try to change their cost in such a way :p
On September 12 2012 03:09 UntoTheBreach wrote: DT's need a buff or they're not going to be used. Already they're hardly ever used apart from cheese. If the new units ever become viable, then the DT's will go the way of the dodo.
DT's could be buffed by lowering the gas requirement. Maybe even have them pure minerals -- say 200 a piece. Maybe lower the DPS slightly. This is not such a crazy idea if you think about it. Terran have helions and all kinds of units that could stop a DT army. Zerg have banelings, infestors, roaches and all kinds. But Toss would have a new gateway strategy!
Come on, admit it. It's a brilliant idea. All Toss players want this DT buff.
This is a terrible idea. Dark Templar are used in a lot of strategies and especially into the lategame. If you want a buff to the DT you are better off asking that both templar are unlocked by the same tech structure. But to ask for a cost change is ridiculous.
On September 12 2012 03:09 UntoTheBreach wrote: DT's need a buff or they're not going to be used. Already they're hardly ever used apart from cheese. If the new units ever become viable, then the DT's will go the way of the dodo.
DT's could be buffed by lowering the gas requirement. Maybe even have them pure minerals -- say 200 a piece. Maybe lower the DPS slightly. This is not such a crazy idea if you think about it. Terran have helions and all kinds of units that could stop a DT army. Zerg have banelings, infestors, roaches and all kinds. But Toss would have a new gateway strategy!
Come on, admit it. It's a brilliant idea. All Toss players want this DT buff.
This is a terrible idea. Dark Templar are used in a lot of strategies and especially into the lategame. If you want a buff to the DT you are better off asking that both templar are unlocked by the same tech structure. But to ask for a cost change is ridiculous.
Would the DT break the game if its cost decreased to 125/100 from 125/125? No. Would it be overpowered? Probably not. What about something like 150/75? Would it be overpowered then? Possibly.
It's fine if you disagree and think it's a bad idea, but claiming that the unit is perfect exactly as-is and can never be tweaked in a way that changes its cost is disingenuous. I don't see DTs being used any more often than Battlecruisers or Hydras, and both of those are getting buffs in HotS.
This is a terrible idea. Dark Templar are used in a lot of strategies and especially into the lategame. If you want a buff to the DT you are better off asking that both templar are unlocked by the same tech structure. But to ask for a cost change is ridiculous.
They are not used in a lot of strategies. They are used in cheese strategies. Apart from that they're used once every blue moon. They need a buff like the hydra and the reaper.
As soon as detection comes into play, then any number of dark templars will die faster than zealots. As far as we know, balancing them isn't an issue because they're so fragile. They main problem is the archons, but I don't think a mineral archon (i.e. archon with small gas requirement) is such a bad idea.
Go into unit tester and try using archons on their own. They're like paper. They need a zealot buffer. That requires minerals. Mineral archon would not be OP as far as we know.
On September 11 2012 17:26 BeyondCtrL wrote: I just think at this moment it's too late to make any meaningful changes to Protoss without destroying all current standard plays. Even though HotS looks to add and shift the standard it is simply an extension to what exists by building on existing mechanics. Removing or altering the core, albeit broken, mechanics of Protoss will catapult the state of the game back to the stone-age. The biggest problem with this is how pros will have to adjust, especially Protoss pros. Such a move could potentially remove any significantly balanced representation of Protosses in tournaments in the near future, until the new/changed mechanics become understood.
So you're saying SC2 is lost? Seriously, the release of an expansion is the best opportunity to rework the game on the fundamental level. The balance will be thrown out the window regardless, so they might as well fix the god damn game.
Look at WC3 and TFT, they added: shops, neutral heroes, anticasters, and reworked creeping. Those were some fundamental changes, but in the end they mae the game much better.
This, this a thousand times. The WC3 development team radically overhauled the game going in The Frozen Throne and they really improved the game. Even if Blizzard didn't want to do this, I'd like them to at least consider an overhaul as an option.
On September 12 2012 03:42 Zato-1 wrote: 400m for an Archon sounds like it could be really OP though. I'll admit it's an interesting idea, but you'd probably want to remove their Archon Warp ability if you were to try to change their cost in such a way :p
Thanks, dude. You seem to be the only with an open mind in this thread.
Maybe 300 minerals per dark templar, so it's a 600 mineral archon.
I like to see DTs getting an upgrade, the Dark Shrine feels somewhat neglected otherwise and protoss could always use more ways to use chronoboost. Something like: activate a shield that gives you +5 armor for 4 seconds would be neat, could help you escape those pesky scans in late-game.
Give warp prisms an energy bar, make them cost a little gas, maybe tone down their shield buff, and then: give them a spell that allows them to pick up units from a small distance away -> instant DT buff without really changing the DT.
On September 12 2012 05:12 Resistentialism wrote: Give warp prisms an energy bar, make them cost a little gas, maybe tone down their shield buff, and then: give them a spell that allows them to pick up units from a small distance away -> instant DT buff without really changing the DT.
So a huge nerf on a staple unit to give Toss a trick which is really difficult to execute and would hardly ever be used anyway.
Meanwhile, Terran and Zerg get massive buffs to helions, battlecruisers, reapers, hydras, ultras with no compensating nerfs.
Notice I didn't use any numbers! Imagine whatever values seem appropriate to you. Plus there could be more uses to it than just dts: imagine saving immortals or sentries or whathaveyou as well. Plus, it's micro intensive; we all pretty much agree that would be a good thing for protoss.
EPT
