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ZeroClick
Brazil63 Posts
DB is talking about "feeling"? I'm a zerg player, and in Broodwar, my feeling when I see an army of carriers coming to to my base was "PANIC". Nowadays, When I see an army of Tempests I think: It's just a little rain. It will be over soon. BTW: Tempests are a far better harassing unit than Oracle... It's comic that a T3 unit is better suited as harassing unit... | ||
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
Blizzard initially said protoss need an AoE anti-air to deal with mutalisks/corrupter/bl. That was the original tempest. So what happened? All of a sudden protoss need a 22 range unit that tickles the enemy to death? I really think DB/blizz has no fucking idea what he is doing anymore. It saddens me even more that some players think they do. | ||
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Tamburlaine
Canada288 Posts
On September 11 2012 21:54 hecticSc wrote: EASY Protoss fix, give us back zealot legs from BW, give us dark templar on templar archives ! DONE Protoss can now stand toe to toe with t and z. But... charge is zealot legs? It's a passive, permanent speed boost on top of the charge ability. | ||
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johnny123
521 Posts
On September 11 2012 23:02 a176 wrote: Anyone who even concedes to the concept of the tempest is only fooling themselves. Blizzard initially said protoss need an AoE anti-air to deal with mutalisks/corrupter/bl. That was the original tempest. So what happened? All of a sudden protoss need a 22 range unit that tickles the enemy to death? I really think DB/blizz has no fucking idea what he is doing anymore. It saddens me even more that some players think they do. at the time, yes . But phenix do the job right now thanks to the upgrade... even if u have just 4 phenix, u will kill and infinite flock of mutas with the range upgrade providing one can micro.... if tempest were purely just A-move big aoe blast that be boring as fuck dude. Talk about adding to the death ball! .colossus kill everything on ground, no worries tempest kill everything in AIR as well. 2 death balls. Glad they changed it role to be more like what it is right now. | ||
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Xerxes Wrath
48 Posts
On September 11 2012 23:14 Tamburlaine wrote: But... charge is zealot legs? It's a passive, permanent speed boost on top of the charge ability. Legs give Zealots more pernament speed than Charge does, so the total time to close the gap with enemies of zealots is also shorter | ||
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Silencioseu
Cyprus493 Posts
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
Now beta comes around, all players start playing and want to try out new units. Zergs mass produce swarmhosts in all matchups even when it is stupid to do so. Terrans do the same with warhounds. Toss players want to have fun and start mass producing Tempests and get rolled over. Then they decide to build lot of oracle and figure out in direct combat the unit is pretty much useless. Then they want to mass produce mothership cores but wait, you can only have one. So all they got left is play with old units while trying to figure out how to include new units into old metagame. They watch Zergs and Terrans do opposite, get pissed and start mass complaining on forums. | ||
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Xerxes Wrath
48 Posts
On September 11 2012 23:33 -Archangel- wrote: I think the root of the problem is that in HotS Zerg and Terrans got spamable units in warhounds, new helions, swarmhosts and new hydras. Now beta comes around, all players start playing and want to try out new units. Zergs mass produce swarmhosts in all matchups even when it is stupid to do so. Terrans do the same with warhounds. Toss players want to have fun and start mass producing Tempests and get rolled over. Then they decide to build lot of oracle and figure out in direct combat the unit is pretty much useless. Then they want to mass produce mothership cores but wait, you can only have one. So all they got left is play with old units while trying to figure out how to include new units into old metagame. They watch Zergs and Terrans do opposite, get pissed and start mass complaining on forums. Don't talk crap about Protoss when you clearly never see any HoTS VODs | ||
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neversummer
United States156 Posts
2. Does not play HotS (and hasn't played WoL for a long time) 3. /thread | ||
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Xerxes Wrath
48 Posts
On September 11 2012 23:51 neversummer wrote: 1. Not high level 2. Does not play HotS (and hasn't played WoL for a long time) 3. /thread I bet you didn't read anything. Oh, even if you read, you wouldn't understand a damn | ||
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Brahoono
119 Posts
On September 11 2012 23:51 neversummer wrote: 1. Not high level 2. Does not play HotS (and hasn't played WoL for a long time) 3. /thread I play WoL on a pretty high level very frequently and pretty much agree with many points he pointed out 100%. Alsofor example Harsteem who is a pretty highlevel Protoss pretty much agreed completely. So please shut the fuck up next time. | ||
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Sandstorm9
41 Posts
On September 10 2012 08:06 Archon96 wrote:I personally would be thrilled with the removal of oracle, mothership core, and tempest, and just get a buff on the void ray. I am not a player of your caliber, but this, this, this. So much this! I've been saying this for ages. The Void is a 250/150 unit that's only good at killing things that cant shoot at it. And even then, it takes its time to do it. So we use it vs Zerg when they dont have anti-air but when a couple of queens pop, it's over. If this unit is supposed to be harasser,then make it a harasser. But it's supposed to be an anticapital ship, that's why it has a bonus vs armoured and massive, +60% vs massive if i am not mistaken. The fact that it's only used vs drones speaks volumes. So either make it a harasser, or make it good at what it's supposed to be: An anticapital / antiarmoured destroyer. But Thors and BCs have energy so feedback is better (HT also counters the million marines that go with them), and vs BL there's fungal and mass corruptors. That's why the Tempests have 22 range. It's the only solution. "Your anticapital ship melts when it faces the zerg deathball? Here's a second one to use it from the back so that it wont get melted". At the end of the day, Stargate did get detection (finally), but it's still a build with no DPS, and protoss need some of that because GW units suck, and you wont have Forcefields to help them if you invest so hard on Stargate. So something's got to give. The Oracle needs to become more multipurpose, something like a Protoss Raven. Maybe with some buffs to SG we will be able to see skytoss vs mech, but again, this will be a situational thing. You wont be able to decide to go skytoss, and have your enemy wonder which tech path you're going. It will be decided based on what the Terran does. The terran went for Warhounds? Better get air units that the warhounds cant shoot. | ||
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Sandstorm9
41 Posts
DB: That, or be comfortable with a light amount of damage and say “Look, I am not going to kill you with this but you can’t stay there forever. I am chipping away at you, I am not killing everything but I am beating you pretty good. You have to move away, or engage this tempest or figure something out because you have limited time to do it.” And that’s the other reason why I think it feels different than a standard artillery unit. Because the standard artillery units, like the siege tank, are all like “No, you are dead. You need to move immediately.” The tempest is like “Yeah, he’s working away at my nexus and this is a problem. But it’s not a problem I need to solve in four seconds, it’s a problem I need to solve in 30 seconds, or maybe a minute.” And that creates a different kind of feeling. " So the protoss capital ship isnt an harbinger of doom, it's a flying sentry that tickles you from afar. "Please stop it, dont be tickling me you silly Tempest!" | ||
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neversummer
United States156 Posts
On September 12 2012 00:11 Brahoono wrote: I play WoL on a pretty high level very frequently and pretty much agree with many points he pointed out 100%. Alsofor example Harsteem who is a pretty highlevel Protoss pretty much agreed completely. So please shut the fuck up next time. HOLY SHIT you play WoL at a pretty high level pretty frequently and pretty much agree with many of the points he made 100% (60% of the time, it works every time amiright?). Oh and wait, your friend who I've never heard of nor will ever hear of is also a pretty high level toss and pretty much agrees with pretty much everything the OP said as well, pretty much? Yea, I'll go ahead and stfu next time. GL in life sir. | ||
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Sandstorm9
41 Posts
On September 11 2012 23:21 johnny123 wrote: at the time, yes . But phenix do the job right now thanks to the upgrade... even if u have just 4 phenix, u will kill and infinite flock of mutas with the range upgrade providing one can micro.... if tempest were purely just A-move big aoe blast that be boring as fuck dude. Talk about adding to the death ball! .colossus kill everything on ground, no worries tempest kill everything in AIR as well. 2 death balls. Glad they changed it role to be more like what it is right now. When anyone, ANYONE in the GSL gets the Phoenix upgrade, then we'll talk. So far, it's an upgrade to help the little guys in the low leagues. A pro player will get 1 infestor and kill your phoenix. Or just let his 100 mutas kill your nexus while your micro your heart out with your 4 phoenix. Or spam roaches. This is the problem with PvZ. You have the race that needs tier 3 tech to deal with even the simplest thing, and the race than can instantly tech switch. "Oh there's 100 mutas out there? Get a Beacon and try to get enough Phoenix". "Well ok, i'll drop 2 SG, get a Beacon and..." BOOM 100 roaches in your natural, or 1 infestor fungals you. You see, you can safely go up to tier 3 vs Terran or Toss, because they wont instantly tech switch to something else. So you're safe. But you cant expect the Toss to go up to Tier 3 in the most useless tech path in the game, the Stargate, especially vs Zerg. This upgrade should be in the Cyber Core. | ||
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arcHoniC
United States141 Posts
I personally think that the main problem toss is having is just a boring late game composition. unfortunately this doesn't look like it is being addressed in HotS. | ||
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TheDougler
Canada8307 Posts
On September 11 2012 09:00 Fig wrote: Haha you are close! It's jealousy at the fact that so many of terran's underused WoL units have gotten a revamp. The raven (100 energy HSM and increased move speed), the BC (back to the old improved damage and 100 Yamato Gun), the reaper (now heals). Blizzard is trying to make all of terran's units viable. And it is really quite amazing. This plus the added units to the factory makes any style you try with the terran race fun, and effective. Now we look back at protoss... Any changes to the existing units? YES They took out the carrier... Then they add two new gimmicky (and boring) units to the already most gimmicky tech branch in SC2. They took away cloak from the oracle, the only interesting thing about it. The mothership core was slotted to be amazing though. I was so ready to energize a sentry for 25 energy so I wouldn't have to build 5 of them and could spend that 400 gas on other things like tech. Guess what, they changed energize to 100 energy. Boring. The only thing I see as exciting is the recall, and that was already in WoL, just took longer to get. Just a little consistency would be nice. This is a great quote I think. It's true, all that terran stuff in addition to all the fluff upgrades the already had (hi-sec auto tracking, neosteel plating, the building armor upgrade, every unit with energy including medivacs have a starting energy upgrade) protoss's only equatable upgrade is hallucination really. I mean, lets say that obs speed and warp prism speed equates to BC + Energy and Raven + Energy. Then you cancel out some of the essential upgrades such as siege mode, collosus range, stim and charge and you're left with terran still having all the cool upgrades, and now zerg has some too (ultra charge, hydra speed, all sorts of fun burrow shenanigans etc), which is all fantastic races should have that fun stuff... But for the most part protoss does not have that, or viable unit variety as mentioned above... And for some reason they just took out the carrier just incase we had the urge to differ from the norm a bit. | ||
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UntoTheBreach
25 Posts
- The other races get buffs to staple units like hydras and helions. We get none -- even for units like the dark templar which are perilously close to going extinct. - Our new units suck. Make them as good as vipers and the swarm host. To do this, give a buff to the mothership core and bring cloak back on the oracle. Multiply the damage dealt by the tempest by like a factor of five. - Even if you don't restore cloak to the oracle, something will need to be done about dark templars to make them worth using despite the high gas requirements of the new units. They need a huge buff to stay in the game. Maybe reduce their damage and make the gas cost of them low so in addition to being used early and mid game as a surprise hit squad, they have a role late game as "elite infantry". | ||
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TheDougler
Canada8307 Posts
On September 12 2012 00:18 neversummer wrote: HOLY SHIT you play WoL at a pretty high level pretty frequently and pretty much agree with many of the points he made 100% (60% of the time, it works every time amiright?). Oh and wait, your friend who I've never heard of nor will ever hear of is also a pretty high level toss and pretty much agrees with pretty much everything the OP said as well, pretty much? Yea, I'll go ahead and stfu next time. GL in life sir. Well to be fair Harstem is in fact a competitive dutch protoss player. Edit: In other news, I disagree with just about every change suggested by the post above me. Tempest damage shouldn't be huge, it's just a silly unit that would be a broken unit if it had good damage. DT's are fine as they are, reducing their damage would be horrible because they wouldn't one shot workers. I like the idea of cloak back onto the oracle though. | ||
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convention
United States622 Posts
On September 12 2012 00:31 arcHoniC wrote: Maybe this is obvious but the meta game has shifted towards an all in type of style for protoss due to the strength of warping in reinforcements. This creates an attacking advantage which pushes the meta game towards timings and the like. If HotS wasn't coming out it could very well be that all the timings could be figured out and protoss would be forced into playing a bit differently, unfortunately the expansion will have a sort of reset of the meta and a ton of new timings will come out that will delay the trend of all inning. I personally think that the main problem toss is having is just a boring late game composition. unfortunately this doesn't look like it is being addressed in HotS. I think that protoss has one of the most exciting late game compositions along with terran. Protoss generally have a very diverse amount of units that use every tech path. Terran similarly will have a very diverse army composition. If you want to talk about boring late game compositions, I think you have to say that is zerg. And the PvZ metagame isn't timing attacks because of warpgame, it's because of how powerful zerg lategame compositions are, and how strong zerg gets with an undamage economy (although there are some protoss, such as Creator and HerO who just do light harass into expansions, and they are both very strong PvZ so it's possible to not have to do a timing attack). PvT has a good mixture of all ins, timing attacks, and defensive macro play. On September 12 2012 00:50 UntoTheBreach wrote: Fixing Toss shouldn't be that difficult. A few things are missing: - The other races get buffs to staple units like hydras and helions. We get none. - Our new units suck. Make them as good as vipers and the swarm host. To do this, give a buff to the mothership core and bring cloak back on the oracle. - Even if you don't restore cloak to the oracle, something will need to be done about dark templars to make them worth using despite the high gas requirements of the new units. They need a huge buff to stay in the game. Maybe make the gas cost of them low. DTs are one of the most powerful late game harass units (I'd say reapers are also up there with lategame harass potential). Almost all games that go to the lategame will have DTs harassing mineral lines. If you reduced their gas cost, well... I don't think toss would ever lose in the lategame just because of sheer harassing potential. The oracle with cloaking field is definitely a little bit too strong. You would have cloaking field before zerg will usually have detection. You could argue that zerg should just prebuild spores everywhere, but I think building spores should be able to be done as a reaction of "I scout DT shrine building, I should have detection at every base", instead of "he has the potential to get mass cloak before I have lair, I'll have to have spores everywhere in case he does that" | ||
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