On September 11 2012 08:14 ChristianS wrote: Gateway armies aren't exactly weak, anyway. The 4gate absolutely wrecked the metagame for a long time, and 2base 6gate attacks can only really be defended by T because of bunkers + mass repair. Honestly without warpgate there would still be very little room for buffing gateway units, because delay a 6gate attack by the 30 seconds it takes to walk your stalkers across the field, and its still a REALLY powerful attack. But gateway units are still tier one units, and toss has much more powerful core compositions. Nor are they as uninteresting to attack with as random Bnet poster would have you believe; storms and forcefields require impressive micro, and colossi depend on positioning them to do damage before the vikings completely destroy them.
If you delay a 2base 6gate timing attack by how long it takes to build your units (as opposed to near-instant build time from warp-in) plus how long it takes to get to the enemy base, then Terran will have stimpack (and more units) by when your attack starts so it's not a powerful attack at all. This timing attack hits JUST before stimpack and that's what makes it so powerful.
In the same vein, 4gate wrecked the metagame a long time ago because of warp-in, not due to Protoss gateway units being too powerful; without warp-in, 4gate would have been VASTLY weaker.
But it's completely inaccurate to assume the player gets out the other gateways at the same time without warpgate. 6-gate builds are timed out to have the production to spend all the money you've accumulated up to that point. Without warpgate you don't get a free production cycle at the front end, but you've mined just as much money, so you'd just build the production earlier. Maybe you need one extra gateway to get the same number of units, but the army size is about the same for a given time; its just built at your base instead of at your forward pylon.
While the issue you're mentioning does exist (warp gate cooldown being lower than gateway production time, therefore you need extra gateways to match the production of warp gates operating at full speed), it's not what I meant. Rather, the difference between warping in next to the enemy vs. producing at home is that...
*When warping next to the enemy, it takes 5s and then you have your unit right where you want it.
*When building units from gateways, it takes 37-42s to build your unit (depending on whether you're building a sentry, zealot or stalker) and then you have to run them across the map to the enemy base before they're ready.
So in your example where you've mined just as much money and it takes 30s to run across the map, from the moment you have the money and start your warp-in of stalkers it would take 5s for them to be exactly where you need them (but then the warp gates are on cooldown for a bit); if from the moment you have the money you start building your stalkers from gateways then move them to the enemy base when they're ready, it would take 42s of build time plus 30s of travel time for a total of 1min 12s to get the same units to the same place, or 1 min 7s more time than it would take if you use warp-in. Delaying a timing attack by that much time makes a colossal difference in terms of the effectiveness of said timing attack.
The idea is to lessen Protoss' reliance on said timing attacks. Plus it would give a real defender's advantage in PvP which is one of the key components in its instability as a matchup. For example reinforcing from the now-faster gateways would give you the necessary extra units to hold a big warpgate push atyour own base.
It'd open up a whole world of interestingness having stronger gateway units too, the other side of a warpgate redesign. Imagine for example playing a PvZ where you don't have to rely on doing big +1 Zealot pressures, or gateway allins but could instead send out a few units, micro your heart out while expanding behind it. PvZ having no real back-and-forth dynamic is a big turnoff for many with the matchup and needs to be looked at in a more fundamental way.
These are just extremely rough examples, but I think the idea behind them is reasonably clear.
While I agree with what you're saying, I'm pretty sure you're missing the context of the discussion I was having with ChristianS about whether gateway units, with their current stats and costs, are weak overall or not; he was arguing that they're not weak because some timing attacks with gateway units- namely, 4gate and more recently 2base 6gate timing vs. Terran- are quite strong, and they would remain strong even without warp-gates. I was pointing out that these timing attacks would become a lot weaker without warp-in, so therefore his argument wasn't valid for claiming that gateway units are strong enough as-is.
Ah my apologies for that. I'm just emotionally and physically drained after the US Open Tennis final
@kckkryptonite Yeah and why don't you address the guy's points instead of referring to his skill level? The GSL players have a GSL to win so I can't see them playing the beta anytime soon. In addition not all of the best players skill wise are the most creative of players that shape how a game is played, they just play it better. For example a player like Destiny was very innovative and changed how people used Infestors without being the best player around. White-Ra and his special tactics have shown off cool concepts that top Koreans have later refined etc.
I agree with a fair amount of what the OP is saying. Protoss in SC2 has to rely on gimmicks like force fields to survive early and beyond that the only options are all-in off 2 base or turtle into deathball and a-move. Coming into SC2 as a fellow Protoss player, I too was very disappointed with the race and switched to Terran within weeks. Then after Terran spent month after month getting crushed under the nerf hammer, I quit playing 1v1 entirely. HotS has done nothing to renew my interest so far.
On September 11 2012 09:06 archonOOid wrote: The criticism against the tempest backfires as you claim it's nothing but 1a unit, expensive and has low dps. Well didn't you long for protoss units that were expensive, complex and powerful in the late game? The tempest commanded like a 1a unit gives you a small reward but used properly against the right units gives you a great reward. The tempest is good against all of the zerg late game units like the swarm host and broodlords. It saddens me that people don't seem to understand the way a tempest should be handled. As a final look I think that the WoL Carrier looks measly in comparison to the beastly and commanding Tempest.
It saddens me more that a Zerg player thinks he can play protoss better than professional players (see how much WhiteRa likes the new units for example)
so, dude, just in case you didn't notice, considering the huge cost of the Tempest, in terms of actual cost and tech required, it's not only NOT cost-effective against any Zerg units, including drones....(they can be produced faster than tempests kill them) it's just one of the worst RTS units ever designed, period, and a big, flashy "hey, my army sucks, come and kill me now" signal, yup, great unit (they should just change its pathetic damage to a flashing sign that hangs over an enemy base and says "come kill me now buddy", it wouldn't make much of a difference really) while the damage dealing carrier is removed without any attempts at fixing it
OP is right on every point, and so far Hots looks like a slap in the face of every protoss player with a brain
1- Early defence unit (core) that now can't defend from anything 2-Harass unit that doesn't harass - see link for a longer analysis (credit to SNR for the post) http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6520713440 3-Capital ship that makes you lose the game for wasting so many resources
yup, great additions, they must surely feel proud of their design acumen.....
DB: That, or be comfortable with a light amount of damage and say “Look, I am not going to kill you with this but you can’t stay there forever. I am chipping away at you, I am not killing everything but I am beating you pretty good. You have to move away, or engage this tempest or figure something out because you have limited time to do it.” And that’s the other reason why I think it feels different than a standard artillery unit. Because the standard artillery units, like the siege tank, are all like “No, you are dead. You need to move immediately.” The tempest is like “Yeah, he’s working away at my nexus and this is a problem. But it’s not a problem I need to solve in four seconds, it’s a problem I need to solve in 30 seconds, or maybe a minute.” And that creates a different kind of feeling. "
I love that, DB may as well have just said "Yeah so basically the tempest is a 300/300 siege tank that doesnt do splash damage and has a pause twice as long between shots, but we feel the cost is justified by the different dynamic we've created"
Completely agree with the OP though, theres a lot of all-in-ishness about the protoss race design, i think due to the high cost of units you have a dynamic where the high outlay on new tech trees and very strong upgrades (thermal lance, blink, charge, etc) are all conducive to the army having points where its strength obviously jumps large steps at a time creating more obvious attacking opportunities. If the base units were better but the upgrades were not as good with rebalances in the costs that could go a long way to fixing the issue
It's just stupid to argue with terran or zerg players, they don't know a damn about protoss original design. Neither does blizzard.
Protoss is no longer the race of firepower as they used to be. Now they only have durability left, but when they face with other races' superior firepower, they're just like paper
On September 10 2012 08:57 MattBarry wrote: You're missing the point. Protoss wins, but it isn't a fun or interesting race to play compared to BW. I know people say that about every race but it is especially bad for Protoss
This is the only form of protoss QQing that I agree with at all.
And sadly, I agree with it immensely. Protoss is just boring to play, boring to watch.
Didn't the Tempest used to have air to air AOE?? Maybe to make the unit not crap they could bring that back and reduce the range of the unit to 15 or 14 so that its actually scary, worth the cost, and can be used in the late game to protect Colossi or something. The 15 range on a ground attack would also help deal with lategame tanks. Might be a bit much for some people, but Protoss is so weak in the current version of HOTS. And for LoTV they need to look at redesigning the whole damn race, if not sooner. I'd be glad to give up warp gate, and/or forcefield if the Protoss units were actually STRONGand lived up to the philosophy of the race.
the moment warpgate has been implemented, in order for the timings to not be deadly to the enemies, gateway units had to suck.
In a regular TvT, TvZ, or ZvZ (or any BW matchup), there is a huge defender's advantage ( yes, even zvz), because the defender has 2, maybe even 3 production cycles more than the attacker who has to reinforce from far away. With warpgate, this is thrown out of the window, so to balance that stage of the game, the zealots and stalkers have to be bad.
Warpgate is the main reason why Protoss are so bad right now. Yes, they win with great timings, but they still suck in the long run.
Edit: And I (as well as many others) have said it numerous times, this game shouldn't be a build order wins game, it should be about managing an economy, while defending many bases and planning attacks and harassments. The 200 maxed out vs 200 maxed out, or 2 base timing that decides the winner in 30 seconds is not what Starcraft 2 should be.
I just think at this moment it's too late to make any meaningful changes to Protoss without destroying all current standard plays. Even though HotS looks to add and shift the standard it is simply an extension to what exists by building on existing mechanics. Removing or altering the core, albeit broken, mechanics of Protoss will catapult the state of the game back to the stone-age. The biggest problem with this is how pros will have to adjust, especially Protoss pros. Such a move could potentially remove any significantly balanced representation of Protosses in tournaments in the near future, until the new/changed mechanics become understood.
On September 11 2012 17:26 BeyondCtrL wrote: I just think at this moment it's too late to make any meaningful changes to Protoss without destroying all current standard plays. Even though HotS looks to add and shift the standard it is simply an extension to what exists by building on existing mechanics. Removing or altering the core, albeit broken, mechanics of Protoss will catapult the state of the game back to the stone-age. The biggest problem with this is how pros will have to adjust, especially Protoss pros. Such a move could potentially remove any significantly balanced representation of Protosses in tournaments in the near future, until the new/changed mechanics become understood.
I wouldn't care if it destroy all current Protoss build. It is call an expansion for a good reason. It is not like these changes are going to be implemented in WOL.
On September 11 2012 17:26 BeyondCtrL wrote: I just think at this moment it's too late to make any meaningful changes to Protoss without destroying all current standard plays. Even though HotS looks to add and shift the standard it is simply an extension to what exists by building on existing mechanics. Removing or altering the core, albeit broken, mechanics of Protoss will catapult the state of the game back to the stone-age. The biggest problem with this is how pros will have to adjust, especially Protoss pros. Such a move could potentially remove any significantly balanced representation of Protosses in tournaments in the near future, until the new/changed mechanics become understood.
So you're saying SC2 is lost? Seriously, the release of an expansion is the best opportunity to rework the game on the fundamental level. The balance will be thrown out the window regardless, so they might as well fix the god damn game.
Look at WC3 and TFT, they added: shops, neutral heroes, anticasters, and reworked creeping. Those were some fundamental changes, but in the end they mae the game much better.
On September 11 2012 17:26 BeyondCtrL wrote: I just think at this moment it's too late to make any meaningful changes to Protoss without destroying all current standard plays. Even though HotS looks to add and shift the standard it is simply an extension to what exists by building on existing mechanics. Removing or altering the core, albeit broken, mechanics of Protoss will catapult the state of the game back to the stone-age. The biggest problem with this is how pros will have to adjust, especially Protoss pros. Such a move could potentially remove any significantly balanced representation of Protosses in tournaments in the near future, until the new/changed mechanics become understood.
I wouldn't care if it destroy all current Protoss build. It is call an expansion for a good reason. It is not like these changes are going to be implemented in WOL.
YES!
Do whatever you can Blizzard, just give us back the TRUE Protoss!!
They could try to change warpgate implementation in certain ways to keep it in the game but not make it nesesary for the nerfed gateway army.
1: Warp Gates and Warp Prisms now produce warpfields where units can be allowed to warp in instaid of using pylon power fields (esentialy you need to proxy a powered gateway or bring a warp prism with your army to reinforce without travel)
2: Warp Gate research moved to Twilight Council, increased cost to 100/100 but greatly reduced research time (forcing it into a diferent tech path than robo to prevent early warp prism rushes)
If that's not enough
3: Warp Gates now produce units like a normal gateway, with buildtime and everything, however when the Warp Gate finish producing the unit it gets sent to the Warp Buffer accesed by the 'W' key where you can warp in units on demand as long as they have been produced first (this meas that you cant insta reinforce when you go into maxed battles and have to wait the production cycles like other races, but also we get the benefit of queue like terran have it)
4: Warp Prism have a throttling feature that any 1 warp prism can only handle 5 simultanious warp ins at a time and posibly change the prism cost from 200/0 to 100/100 (the prism can produce a max of 1 unit every second as long as there is units ready in the warp buffer)
With this the general mecanic will remain in the game as it is interesting and race defining for protoss, however it will eliminate most of the problematic "surge" timings because of frontloaded production and give the oponent back most of his defenders advantage as it offencivly will be like zerg rallying all hatcheries into nydus worms and using the worms as reinforcement warp prisms/gates.... something i cannot understand why zerg dont use more.
Why not just make the warp in duration time like 2x or 3x longer? It would be way easier to defend warp gate all ins while keeping the whole mecanism in the game, and open the way of creating more cost efficient support or harass units.
This somewhat reasonable change would change a lot of things without breaking the game as it is.
On September 11 2012 15:03 Havik_ wrote: Didn't the Tempest used to have air to air AOE?? Maybe to make the unit not crap they could bring that back and reduce the range of the unit to 15 or 14 so that its actually scary, worth the cost, and can be used in the late game to protect Colossi or something. The 15 range on a ground attack would also help deal with lategame tanks. Might be a bit much for some people, but Protoss is so weak in the current version of HOTS. And for LoTV they need to look at redesigning the whole damn race, if not sooner. I'd be glad to give up warp gate, and/or forcefield if the Protoss units were actually STRONGand lived up to the philosophy of the race.
This was way, way back in some alpha build for HotS that Blizzard demoed on some convention, I believe it was Blizzcon 2011. At the time, they were worried about a recent shift in the PvZ metagame in which Zerg players would just mass a ton of mutalisks and kill Protoss while Protoss seemed to have no answer for the strategy; they thought a new unit, which they'd call the Tempest, could fix that problem in HotS as a capital ship that had an air-to-air attack with splash damage and some form of air-to-ground attack. Here's a video for you to see what they were thinking of:
The Tempest as a crazy range siege unit is an entirely different concept; they scrapped the idea of needing an anti-air AoE capital ship when mass mutas stopped looking unstoppable in WoL (in part thanks to their addition of the range upgrade for Phoenix). The only things the current Tempest has in common with that other, old Tempest are their names and their artwork; their roles are completely different.
I don't actually have a huge problem with Protoss in WoL; it's true that it does feel somewhat "deathball"-like, or all-in or lose at times, but I think protoss is actually quite a dynamic race. They can match a terran in the lategame(not including the fourth race, Taeja), if not better, with their splash damage and warp in mechanic. Against zerg there does seem to be a slight problem late game- it becomes archon toilet or lose situation- but that's what I expected HotS to try to fix.
The range of options for protoss are actually pretty dynamic, imo. They have nice harass units(warp prism, not oracle) that are strong BECAUSE of the warp in mechanics. Warp in adds a new mechanic into the game and I don't blame blizzard for trying that- even if it makes protoss units a bit weaker than they should be. The mobility that protoss actually get from warpgate is underrated behind the BW belief that protoss have to stay the fat, slow, powerful race.
But especially,what I love about protoss in WoL is the spellcasters. Sentries and templar are my favorite units and are probably a lot of other people's too. Same with microable units like blink stalkers. "Relying on forcefields and [insert spells here]" to win the game is not an issue; it makes protoss have a higher skill ceiling than it would otherwise. If we talk about deathball on deathball games, that's a problem at the game's core that isn't the issue I want to address here(mainly multi unit select and clumping but I digress). If you've ever watched HerO play, you know what I'm talking about- he abuses the mechanics of protoss to no end, and its fun to watch and play in that style.
I actually don't even think protoss need a harass unit in hots- they have probably the best one in the game, the pylon. The pylon, because it can harass from any location makes it quite strong to harass. Warp prisms add to that by making it a shuttle that is also a pylon; it works perfectly fine.
Those that complain about protoss being too 1-a, I think that there are ways to play protoss that don't involve 1-aing; its just that other ways also exist, but the common metagame is that once protosses start losing with one all-in they start trying a new one. I think the future of protoss lies in clever harass tactics like I see from HerO or any other harassment based toss- and if they can gather together to form a big fat army in the end, nbd.
Which brings me to the problems I have with Hots protoss. I agree with the OP that the new units do not benefit the race at all in their current state. Mship cores are probably the only unit I think works ALRIGHT right now. They're certainly not perfect; a toss still can't fast expand off of Mship core more effectively than if he just built a forge, imo. But it definitely has potential and can be buffed/nerfed accordingly.
The tempest- sigh. I liked the idea in the beginning of a 22 range harass unit. But now I realize the fatal flaw- you can't buff/nerf it properly. Make it too much damage and it's broken(all the protoss has to do is park on in korhal city where theres infinite airspace and wait). Make it too weak like it is now and it's useless. It's not a lategame unit- I would rather build a warp prism with a few dts/zealots to kill a greater spire in under 15 seconds with warp in than build a tempest to take it down in 10 minutes(not counting transfuses). Absoultely useless. It's just a big cannon that doesn't do anything useful. I would take the current carrier any day; at least we see it in late game.
The oracle- as I said before, the warp prism is still the current better option because of its tech route and its mineral only cost. But I think there's potential here, with nerfs and buffs- maybe on cost or abilities(cloak would be cool). It's a spellcaster which instantly makes it a lot more interesting than any stupid 1-a unit.
Lastly I want to completely agree that the void ray needs a buff to see use; we just need to be wary of stronger void ray all ins, etc because of it. A speed upgrade that wasn't as destructive as flux veins would be good(voidrayblink?? lol jk). Perhaps a faster acceleration(not speed) would make it a better "tactical/surgical strike unit" which is the role I want it to take.
But the ending point is that the new protoss units are completely replaced by their stronger WoL counterpart units; theres no reason to get the new ones unless you're ahead or bored. This needs to be changed, but I expect some of it to come in beta. Maybe I need to be a little bit more patient.
On September 11 2012 15:03 Havik_ wrote: Didn't the Tempest used to have air to air AOE?? Maybe to make the unit not crap they could bring that back and reduce the range of the unit to 15 or 14 so that its actually scary, worth the cost, and can be used in the late game to protect Colossi or something. The 15 range on a ground attack would also help deal with lategame tanks. Might be a bit much for some people, but Protoss is so weak in the current version of HOTS. And for LoTV they need to look at redesigning the whole damn race, if not sooner. I'd be glad to give up warp gate, and/or forcefield if the Protoss units were actually STRONGand lived up to the philosophy of the race.
This was way, way back in some alpha build for HotS that Blizzard demoed on some convention, I believe it was Blizzcon 2011. At the time, they were worried about a recent shift in the PvZ metagame in which Zerg players would just mass a ton of mutalisks and kill Protoss while Protoss seemed to have no answer for the strategy; they thought a new unit, which they'd call the Tempest, could fix that problem in HotS as a capital ship that had an air-to-air attack with splash damage and some form of air-to-ground attack. Here's a video for you to see what they were thinking of:
The Tempest as a crazy range siege unit is an entirely different concept; they scrapped the idea of needing an anti-air AoE capital ship when mass mutas stopped looking unstoppable in WoL (in part thanks to their addition of the range upgrade for Phoenix). The only things the current Tempest has in common with that other, old Tempest are their names and their artwork; their roles are completely different.
Yeah, but air to air aoe would still be good and unique. Toss already has enough ground aoe, so air to air would be nice. Better than a 22 range gimmicky unit with no dps. The problem with Protoss is nothing really had good DPS except the Carrier, but that got taken out :p
Problem as i see it is Protoss has no cost/effective versatile units. The only versatile unit is stalker and it does sht damage, has the highest cost and upgrades are appalling on it.
Protoss is the race of counters. You have to sit there and defend and try to figure out what your oponent is doing in order to "counter" his army. It's stupid, and that's because our gateway units suck balls. BW had zealot dragoon that had great synergy and scaled well with upgrades. Now gateway units are a bunch of crap.
But dont worry leave it to blizzard to "fix" this by giving us a crap harass unit and an almost zero damage 300/300 useless slow scout.
EASY Protoss fix, give us back zealot legs from BW, give us dark templar on templar archives ! DONE Protoss can now stand toe to toe with t and z.
On September 11 2012 21:22 jWavA wrote: I don't actually have a huge problem with Protoss in WoL; it's true that it does feel somewhat "deathball"-like, or all-in or lose at times, but I think protoss is actually quite a dynamic race. They can match a terran in the lategame(not including the fourth race, Taeja), if not better, with their splash damage and warp in mechanic. Against zerg there does seem to be a slight problem late game- it becomes archon toilet or lose situation- but that's what I expected HotS to try to fix.
The range of options for protoss are actually pretty dynamic, imo. They have nice harass units(warp prism, not oracle) that are strong BECAUSE of the warp in mechanics. Warp in adds a new mechanic into the game and I don't blame blizzard for trying that- even if it makes protoss units a bit weaker than they should be. The mobility that protoss actually get from warpgate is underrated behind the BW belief that protoss have to stay the fat, slow, powerful race.
But especially,what I love about protoss in WoL is the spellcasters. Sentries and templar are my favorite units and are probably a lot of other people's too. Same with microable units like blink stalkers. "Relying on forcefields and [insert spells here]" to win the game is not an issue; it makes protoss have a higher skill ceiling than it would otherwise. If we talk about deathball on deathball games, that's a problem at the game's core that isn't the issue I want to address here(mainly multi unit select and clumping but I digress). If you've ever watched HerO play, you know what I'm talking about- he abuses the mechanics of protoss to no end, and its fun to watch and play in that style.
I actually don't even think protoss need a harass unit in hots- they have probably the best one in the game, the pylon. The pylon, because it can harass from any location makes it quite strong to harass. Warp prisms add to that by making it a shuttle that is also a pylon; it works perfectly fine.
Those that complain about protoss being too 1-a, I think that there are ways to play protoss that don't involve 1-aing; its just that other ways also exist, but the common metagame is that once protosses start losing with one all-in they start trying a new one. I think the future of protoss lies in clever harass tactics like I see from HerO or any other harassment based toss- and if they can gather together to form a big fat army in the end, nbd.
Which brings me to the problems I have with Hots protoss. I agree with the OP that the new units do not benefit the race at all in their current state. Mship cores are probably the only unit I think works ALRIGHT right now. They're certainly not perfect; a toss still can't fast expand off of Mship core more effectively than if he just built a forge, imo. But it definitely has potential and can be buffed/nerfed accordingly.
The tempest- sigh. I liked the idea in the beginning of a 22 range harass unit. But now I realize the fatal flaw- you can't buff/nerf it properly. Make it too much damage and it's broken(all the protoss has to do is park on in korhal city where theres infinite airspace and wait). Make it too weak like it is now and it's useless. It's not a lategame unit- I would rather build a warp prism with a few dts/zealots to kill a greater spire in under 15 seconds with warp in than build a tempest to take it down in 10 minutes(not counting transfuses). Absoultely useless. It's just a big cannon that doesn't do anything useful. I would take the current carrier any day; at least we see it in late game.
The oracle- as I said before, the warp prism is still the current better option because of its tech route and its mineral only cost. But I think there's potential here, with nerfs and buffs- maybe on cost or abilities(cloak would be cool). It's a spellcaster which instantly makes it a lot more interesting than any stupid 1-a unit.
Lastly I want to completely agree that the void ray needs a buff to see use; we just need to be wary of stronger void ray all ins, etc because of it. A speed upgrade that wasn't as destructive as flux veins would be good(voidrayblink?? lol jk). Perhaps a faster acceleration(not speed) would make it a better "tactical/surgical strike unit" which is the role I want it to take.
But the ending point is that the new protoss units are completely replaced by their stronger WoL counterpart units; theres no reason to get the new ones unless you're ahead or bored. This needs to be changed, but I expect some of it to come in beta. Maybe I need to be a little bit more patient.
Maybe if the removed the Tempest, added the 22 range upgrade for Voidrays, however the damage done by the beam at the range 7-22 would be reduced to the same DPS (or slightly higher) as the Tempest? This makes it not a completely useless unit in actual engagements.
EPT
