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On September 12 2012 05:21 Resistentialism wrote:
Notice I didn't use any numbers! Imagine whatever values seem appropriate to you. Plus there could be more uses to it than just dts: imagine saving immortals or sentries or whathaveyou as well. Plus, it's micro intensive; we all pretty much agree that would be a good thing for protoss. It's a good idea, sure. I took exception to the mentality that Terran can get improved units with no nerfs, but Toss can't. But now that you metnion it, I guess it does need a nerf if you can pull immortals out of the fray.
Imagine what Squirtle would do with it!
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How about this: Research on the Dark Shrine giving the DT a cooldown based ability (no energy and easier to balance) that cloaks a targeted unit. Imagine Warp prism that waprs a dt close to enemy base, the dt cloaks the WP then they both go in the enemy base for some hard luvin'.
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No matter what changes have in the beta, Blizzard's approach to it shows they are completely unwilling to make the major changes that Protoss needs: introducing micro opportunities to immortal and colossus, making Stargate viable to open and survive long enough to transition out, moving warpgate to lategame so that gateway units can get much needed buffs, removing reliance on forcefield which overly constrains map design, making high templar viable as an opening tech..
So It doesn't really matter what units they give Protoss. They're not willing to fix the problems the race has, problems they said they wouldn't change outside of an expansion pack, and they're not now so they won't in LotV either. So no matter what stats they give the Protoss, it will just over power the race or under power it, games at every skill level will continue not be won by skill but by the roulette wheel of luck, desperately propped up by the metagame and map design.
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They should also remove Darkshrine from the game. That way templartech gets way more useful and imho it wouldn't screw up balance that much basically it would just be a change of timings for the other races.
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On September 12 2012 05:02 Grumbels wrote:
I like to see DTs getting an upgrade, the Dark Shrine feels somewhat neglected otherwise and protoss could always use more ways to use chronoboost. Something like: activate a shield that gives you +5 armor for 4 seconds would be neat, could help you escape those pesky scans in late-game.
Exactly. The only change to DTs should be getting rid of the most useless building in the game. The only thing the dark shrine does is announce to the opponent that you are about to make invisible units. If you are going to have it in the game, give us an ability on it!
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Honestly, we should stop walking on egg shells about Protoss changes "because they might be overpowered." You're supposed to start them off OP then tune it down. Just look at the Warhound, it was/is clearly overpowered, and yet here it is in our beta.
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Besides the reason for the deathball playstle is because everything is so shite outside the deathball, And hell, sometimes even in the deathball. I played one game where I took my entire army, right into the enemies main, and forcefielded the ramp 8 times, where his entire army was trying to get in. And i still only managed to kill a few addons. Meanwhile if one medivac gets loose in my main i will lose a building or two garunteed
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I personally think that the main problem toss is having is just a boring late game composition. unfortunately this doesn't look like it is being addressed in HotS.
I think that protoss has one of the most exciting late game compositions along with terran. Protoss generally have a very diverse amount of units that use every tech path. Terran similarly will have a very diverse army composition. If you want to talk about boring late game compositions, I think you have to say that is zerg.
And the PvZ metagame isn't timing attacks because of warpgame, it's because of how powerful zerg lategame compositions are, and how strong zerg gets with an undamage economy (although there are some protoss, such as Creator and HerO who just do light harass into expansions, and they are both very strong PvZ so it's possible to not have to do a timing attack). PvT has a good mixture of all ins, timing attacks, and defensive macro play.
I would agree that PvT late game toss armies are good, I should have specified the late game toss of PvZ leaves something to be desired. I would agree that the late game Z does push toward all ins from the toss side I think both that and the warp in mechanic both push the matchup this way.
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On September 12 2012 06:55 GoldenH wrote:
Besides the reason for the deathball playstle is because everything is so shite outside the deathball, And hell, sometimes even in the deathball. I played one game where I took my entire army, right into the enemies main, and forcefielded the ramp 8 times, where his entire army was trying to get in. And i still only managed to kill a few addons. Meanwhile if one medivac gets loose in my main i will lose a building or two garunteed
I feel that goes more in line with the racial identities of Terran vs. Protoss; Marines and Marauders simply have insane DPS vs. buildings. Protoss units are beefy in terms of health but the flipside is that their DPS is lower so most of them can't bring down buildings in a hurry (Zealots, DTs and Immortals are the exceptions). If you kill a lot of SCVs with harassment but lose a lot of probes, then the Terran has a huge leg up because of MULEs.
That's all bad, but Protoss does have some advantages as well; if you manage to camp the Terran's production facilities he's toast because he loses all his addons and as soon as his units come out of their production facilities they die immediately, whereas Protoss can warp units into safety and can more easily make a bunch of warp gates elsewhere. A Nexus has 2000 health compared to 1500 health for the Hatchery, Command Center, Orbital Command and Planetary Fortress; an Assimilator has an insane 900 health compared to 500 health for an Extractor or Refinery; finally, warp-in is really good for dealing with drops and harassment in general.
Still, like a lot of others in this thread I'd be in favor of changing some of Protoss' racial strengths and weaknesses, like getting rid of warp-in in favor of having stronger gateway units.
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As Cloak said, I think we should stop pussyfooting. Nothing will ever get done if we keep worrying about how "maybe" a change will be overpowered in the beta. Virtually everything they've done with Terran and Zerg is overpowered. Virtually everything they've done with Protoss is underpowered.
We need to show more vigour, more onions, more testicular fortitude. Why can't we be the one's who's OP in the beta for a change?
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Just want to quote Idra here
"The new Protoss units actually made Protoss worse"
Sad but true. =(
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Well, the good news is there is a small glimmer of hope on the horizon. Dustin Browder posted here stating they are talking heavily about Protoss (and the Warhound):
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6551205172
I don't want to get my hopes up too much, but right now it seems they can't make it worse. If they do then no one would play Protoss.
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By the way, buff to the void ray is not especially viable. A lot of Protoss complain that they can't keep up in air vs. air battles because T and Z have vikings and corruptors, respectively, which will destroy all Protoss air. That's true; you know why? Because Protoss have the single most powerful "air" unit in the game: the colossus. With enough colossus on the field, the only way to engage a Protoss is by air. And if Protoss could negate that front, too, there simply wouldn't be a way to beat that composition.
So maybe you could make the void ray faster, or you could make it phase more quickly, or something like that. But when it comes down to it, you can't have cost-effective air-to-air in the Protoss arsenal. Some of you will say remove the colossus and go from there, but as a rule, game developers don't suddenly and completely change their design philosophy on successful games in an expansion pack, nor should they. If the game design is so centrally flawed to the point that that would be necessary, then you basically don't want to play Starcraft 2 any more. If you like BW better, it still exists, and you can play it; or you can play SC2BW if you like the new graphics. But if you really do hate the majority of the game design in SC2, I don't really know why you keep playing it, and nobody is going to completely and radically change it on your behalf.
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On September 12 2012 11:07 ChristianS wrote:
By the way, buff to the void ray is not especially viable. A lot of Protoss complain that they can't keep up in air vs. air battles because T and Z have vikings and corruptors, respectively, which will destroy all Protoss air. That's true; you know why? Because Protoss have the single most powerful "air" unit in the game: the colossus. With enough colossus on the field, the only way to engage a Protoss is by air. And if Protoss could negate that front, too, there simply wouldn't be a way to beat that composition.
So maybe you could make the void ray faster, or you could make it phase more quickly, or something like that. But when it comes down to it, you can't have cost-effective air-to-air in the Protoss arsenal. Some of you will say remove the colossus and go from there, but as a rule, game developers don't suddenly and completely change their design philosophy on successful games in an expansion pack, nor should they. If the game design is so centrally flawed to the point that that would be necessary, then you basically don't want to play Starcraft 2 any more. If you like BW better, it still exists, and you can play it; or you can play SC2BW if you like the new graphics. But if you really do hate the majority of the game design in SC2, I don't really know why you keep playing it, and nobody is going to completely and radically change it on your behalf.
You make a good point, but T and especially Z are getting some new answers to the Colossus in the Warhound and Viper's Abduct. Also, while Vikings rock Void Rays (they can kite them due to faster movespeed and longer range), Corruptors don't; without infestor support, Void Rays do pretty well vs. Corruptors already. If Protoss loses their ground army supremacy with the introduction of new counters to the Colossus, then they should also have viable air play, which would require Void Ray buffs IMO.
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Northern Ireland27303 Posts
On September 12 2012 08:54 Lelden wrote:Well, the good news is there is a small glimmer of hope on the horizon. Dustin Browder posted here stating they are talking heavily about Protoss (and the Warhound): http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6551205172I don't want to get my hopes up too much, but right now it seems they can't make it worse. If they do then no one would play Protoss.
That is the opposite of hope for many of us. He's flatout said he's not going to change warpgates in any appreciable way, or units like the sentry. The underlying design is what makes Protoss near-impossible to balance properly, but Blizzard don't wish to deal with these issues, or at least discuss them beyond 'we're not discussing them'. Really maddening, I wouldn't even mind so much if it was a 'we like warpgates, here's why, they#re staying' but no it's just this void where conjecture is all we can use to ascertain their motives.
It's a shame really that Protoss players can't win on our skills, instead we rely on timing attacks, deathballs or gimmicks. I for one don't like playing in this manner, would rather be stretched more
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It's appalling that you feel that way about your race. In all seriousness and with respect, maybe you should switch?
It's good that Blizz are taking some of the criticism on board. I am glad, however, that sense remains and that WG stays.
(That said, it's likely too late for substantive changes. Still, it may be too early in the beta for that, anyway.)
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Northern Ireland27303 Posts
On September 12 2012 12:09 aZealot wrote:
It's appalling that you feel that way about your race. In all seriousness and with respect, maybe you should switch?
It's good that Blizz are taking some of the criticism on board. I am glad, however, that sense remains and that WG stays.
(That said, it's likely too late for substantive changes. Still, it may be too early in the beta for that, anyway.)
I did, I switched to Terran and got pretty quickly up to my Protoss level, slightly below but could have bridged it. I like the aspect of that race that if you're mechanically good, you can get more out your units, more out of your production and all that good stuff. There was this sense playing Terran that there's always something I can do better, at any point in the game that I really didn't feel with Protoss. Would probably still be playing Terran if Blizzard's godawful 1.5 patch didn't prevent me from playing anymore (why was a bigger deal not made of this btw?)
However, I played Protoss in BW, in every series I like the kind of high-tech alien aesthetic. I don't feel I should have to switch race to play in a certain manner, when it can be tweaked a bit. I'm not asking that Protoss should be able to drop all over the place with strong gateway units a la Terran bio, or that we can swarm things like Zerg. I don't like having to hit a 2 base timing, pre Brood timing or an archon toilet EVERY game PvZ. I don't like turtling and A-moving with a 3/3 deathball in PvT, even if it gives me the win.
I and many others even suggested reasonable, non-huge changes such as creating a cost/benefit dynamic between gateways and warpgates. Little things that can scale well in the hands of a good player, but won't be broken in the hands of a noob. Then we get 'yeah we're not touching gateways'. You just get the sense that Blizzard have made a rod for their own backs, and realise now they can't fix it with the way the Protoss race is designed.
A lot of people disagree with me, fair enough it's obviously my own personal vision of the game and how I'd like to see HoTS moving forward!
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On September 12 2012 06:30 Cloak wrote:
Honestly, we should stop walking on egg shells about Protoss changes "because they might be overpowered." You're supposed to start them off OP then tune it down. Just look at the Warhound, it was/is clearly overpowered, and yet here it is in our beta.
God thank you for saying it
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@ Wombat_NI:
Ah, fair enough, mate. Respect. I see your point, by the way.
When I first started playing HotS, I found I had to play Protoss in a different way to how I remembered playing it with my mates when we lanned BW all night. I just think we forget that the game has certain rules, and each race has certain rules about how they can be played. Like reality, you can't just do anything you want. Believe me, I've often thought that if I had not been Protoss in BW, I would probably have played Terran in HotS. But, I fell in love with Protoss in BW when I played the campaign, right from the very first mission, and decided to stick with Aiur. If I play HotS (which is highly unlikely due to work/life stuff - I may return to SC for LoTV) I am seriously tempted to play Zerg, because from the little I have seen it looks like fun.
But it won't feel right, at all. I'll miss the sounds of probes and structures warping in.
I don't agree that the P style is gimmicy or prone to all-ins and turtle to deathball etc. For example, I am pretty pleased with myself if I have held off an aggressive Terran with good scouting, observers, and army splits. And if feels good that after I have held all that off, I move out with 3/3 completing and my Chargelots hungering for battle and for the smell of Terran blood on their Psi-Blades. I would not like to play a race where that felt, somehow, illegitimate. These are all part of the game to varying degrees. If there is a concern regarding these, it is with regards to the game as a whole, and not specific to Protoss.
I disagree with regards to removal of WG as I've said before (I, probably like you, but from the other end, am tired of belabourng the point). But, tweaks, maybe would be good (depending on what they are, of course).
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Northern Ireland27303 Posts
On September 12 2012 12:51 aZealot wrote:
@ Wombat_NI:
Ah, fair enough, mate. Respect. I see your point, by the way.
When I first started playing HotS, I found I had to play Protoss in a different way to how I remembered playing it with my mates when we lanned BW all night. I just think we forget that the game has certain rules, and each race has certain rules about how they can be played. Like reality, you can't just do anything you want. Believe me, I've often thought that if I had not been Protoss in BW, I would probably have played Terran in HotS. But, I fell in love with Protoss in BW when I played the campaign, right from the very first mission, and decided to stick with Aiur. If I play HotS (which is highly unlikely due to work/life stuff - I may return to SC for LoTV) I am seriously tempted to play Zerg, because from the little I have seen it looks like fun.
But it won't feel right, at all. I'll miss the sounds of probes and structures warping in.
I don't agree that the P style is gimmicy or prone to all-ins and turtle to deathball etc. For example, I am pretty pleased with myself if I have held off an aggressive Terran with good scouting, observers, and army splits. And if feels good that after I have held all that off, I move out with 3/3 completing and my Chargelots hungering for battle and for the smell of Terran blood on their Psi-Blades. I would not like to play a race where that felt, somehow, illegitimate. These are all part of the game to varying degrees. If there is a concern regarding these, it is with regards to the game as a whole, and not specific to Protoss.
I disagree with regards to removal of WG as I've said before (I, probably like you, but from the other end, am tired of belabourng the point). But, tweaks, maybe would be good (depending on what they are, of course).
I don't feel Protoss is illegitimate, we use the tools at our disposal and get nothing but BM for it on the ladder  I feel your point man nothing more fun than holding off a 2 rax or a well executed 1/1/1. You get that kind of adrenaline rush, you're microing your heart out and wiping the sweat off your brow if you pull off the win. Protoss is really microable and fun to play in those smaller scale engagements, but it's difficult to scale this up
I feel it's a complicated issue with how the game is going and how some of us feel about it. Some of it comes from Blizzard, some of it from map developments, some of it from general refinement. Greedy builds aren't really greedy and the midgame deathballs that aren't as much fun to many come into play much faster. Games tend to end often with one big engagement, all those issues that have been debated to death. I was known and used as a PvT sniper by adopting Creator's PvT style and getting it down nice and early, and yeah it is fun to survive the early game with the big cut in units and desperate defence that it entails. The issue for me is when you get your composition and economy going it just feels a bit 'easy' or something. Hard to explain!
Like you I doubt I'd be able to invest the time to become legitimately good in HoTS due to that insidious 'real life' stuff, but it's rare I don't feel any kind of excitement for a Blizzard release. Anyway cheers for the posts, was good to have a brief back-and-forth man!
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