EPTThe Remnants of Protoss, a Broken Race - Page 11
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MostGroce
United States104 Posts
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
On September 12 2012 11:07 ChristianS wrote: By the way, buff to the void ray is not especially viable. A lot of Protoss complain that they can't keep up in air vs. air battles because T and Z have vikings and corruptors, respectively, which will destroy all Protoss air. That's true; you know why? Because Protoss have the single most powerful "air" unit in the game: the colossus. With enough colossus on the field, the only way to engage a Protoss is by air. And if Protoss could negate that front, too, there simply wouldn't be a way to beat that composition. So maybe you could make the void ray faster, or you could make it phase more quickly, or something like that. But when it comes down to it, you can't have cost-effective air-to-air in the Protoss arsenal. Some of you will say remove the colossus and go from there, but as a rule, game developers don't suddenly and completely change their design philosophy on successful games in an expansion pack, nor should they. If the game design is so centrally flawed to the point that that would be necessary, then you basically don't want to play Starcraft 2 any more. If you like BW better, it still exists, and you can play it; or you can play SC2BW if you like the new graphics. But if you really do hate the majority of the game design in SC2, I don't really know why you keep playing it, and nobody is going to completely and radically change it on your behalf. I'd like to point out that while Colossus is probably the most ground dominating ground unit (BL being best air ground dominating) that a support army must exist to buffer and prevent easy snipes. There should be a balance point where Protoss can invest enough into air where they win the air battle, but no longer can keep Colossus safe on the ground if the opponent makes a better balanced army. Protoss is in the exact reverse situation where their lack of competition for air means they're losing the ground battle to Broodlords. | ||
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Rimak
Denmark434 Posts
On September 12 2012 08:54 Lelden wrote: Well, the good news is there is a small glimmer of hope on the horizon. Dustin Browder posted here stating they are talking heavily about Protoss (and the Warhound): http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6551205172 I don't want to get my hopes up too much, but right now it seems they can't make it worse. If they do then no one would play Protoss. Actually for myself HOPE is the only thing I have left. Up to right now Protoss have been pretty much overlooked and new units were implemented just for the sake of new units, they didn't actually add anything to a protoss gameplay. But even if we dump the new units - take for example terran, even the old, underused units were tweaked so make them useful: Reaper heal Battle helion mode Raven change Battlecruiser Buff As i said before, blizz seems to finally noticed that something is wrong, but let's be honest, they won't change the sentry or fix the warp-in. So our only hope is to pray for the sake of Aiur, that they will make us want to return to this game. P.s. Yesterday offraced with Zerg, damit it's so easy, you basically just build stuff, and when that's not working, just build more stuff. | ||
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
On September 12 2012 08:54 Lelden wrote: Well, the good news is there is a small glimmer of hope on the horizon. Dustin Browder posted here stating they are talking heavily about Protoss (and the Warhound): http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6551205172 I don't want to get my hopes up too much, but right now it seems they can't make it worse. If they do then no one would play Protoss. We are not discussing removing Warp Gates or making any changes to the Sentry. Sorry. Are you kidding me? The whole Protoss design is shitty because of those two things :/ | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
On September 12 2012 16:04 Rimak wrote: Actually for myself HOPE is the only thing I have left. Up to right now Protoss have been pretty much overlooked and new units were implemented just for the sake of new units, they didn't actually add anything to a protoss gameplay. But even if we dump the new units - take for example terran, even the old, underused units were tweaked so make them useful: Reaper heal Battle helion mode Raven change Battlecruiser Buff As i said before, blizz seems to finally noticed that something is wrong, but let's be honest, they won't change the sentry or fix the warp-in. So our only hope is to pray for the sake of Aiur, that they will make us want to return to this game. P.s. Yesterday offraced with Zerg, damit it's so easy, you basically just build stuff, and when that's not working, just build more stuff. Cry me a river. Terran units needed to be buffed since they were underused, why on earth would you complain about that? And obligatory completely subjective statements about how zerg is easy are ridiculous too. And they did add a very significant change to protoss: mothership core. Furthermore, stargate play is revamped, just like factory play for terran. It's conceptually not too different. For one reason or another random protoss players found an outlet for complaints in this thread and have bizarre notions of feeling neglected. There isn't even any argument - outside of legitimate issues with protoss design in general - just, 'oh other races get stuff and even if my race gets stuff too and I haven't really tested it yet or seen how good it can be I'll just complain anyway about how theirs is better'. Yeah, the oracle is underwhelming, but it's early in beta, just give your feedback and be done with it. Don't make this about how horribly oppressed you are as protoss. | ||
nimdil
Poland3767 Posts
On September 10 2012 16:53 RehnFreemark wrote:Preventing mining is an issue, but losing workers is a BIGGER issue, because you lose a) the worker (50 cash each) b) the mining time c) the minerals you invest in re-training each lost worker. By that logic for every worker you kill opponent loses 100minerals (a+c) AND mining time? How weird. Different problem is that harassing by killing workers is way more interesting than just mining time if you play against Zerg (larva!) so I'm not sure if Oracle is really that viable in PvZ. Plus zerg nearly always have combat unit (though not heavy hitting one) at each hatchery. | ||
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UntoTheBreach
25 Posts
On September 12 2012 11:07 ChristianS wrote: You mean like brood infestor, or battlecruisers and vikings?By the way, buff to the void ray is not especially viable. A lot of Protoss complain that they can't keep up in air vs. air battles because T and Z have vikings and corruptors, respectively, which will destroy all Protoss air. That's true; you know why? Because Protoss have the single most powerful "air" unit in the game: the colossus. With enough colossus on the field, the only way to engage a Protoss is by air. And if Protoss could negate that front, too, there simply wouldn't be a way to beat that composition. It's one standard for Zerg and Terran, and another for Protoss. There are many ways for Terran to engage air -- not least of which is using EMP. But that would require work, a foreign concept to Terran players who think themselves entitled to free-wins by spamming bioballs and warhounds. | ||
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Coffeeling
Finland250 Posts
Like, most of their new stuff is just deeply flawed by default because Blizzard wants to innovate instead of designing a solid game. The Oracle for example feels like a cool single player units forced into multiplayer for some godawful reason. It's underwhelming by design, not by being in early beta. | ||
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Coffeeling
Finland250 Posts
On September 12 2012 19:02 UntoTheBreach wrote: There are many ways for Terran to engage air -- not least of which is using EMP. But that would require work, a foreign concept to Terran players who think themselves entitled to free-wins by spamming bioballs and warhounds. Brilliant argumentation. I am in awe. How have the poor Terran players survived, "spamming bioballs" in WoL? Oh, right. The faction is now called Korean for some reason. Free wins, free wins all day. But yeah, horrible, horrible attitude, if perhaps understandabe after being beaten by stupid warhound spam one time too many. | ||
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UntoTheBreach
25 Posts
On September 12 2012 17:43 Grumbels wrote: We're oppressed to the extent that we were looking forward to the expansion and the new Protoss race, but now that the beta is out we seem to have gained nothing. The new units are so bad that the game is exactly like WoL for us. Meanwhile, Zerg and Terran have received new units that are exactly what they needed, as well as buffed units from WoL that were previously underused.Yeah, the oracle is underwhelming, but it's early in beta, just give your feedback and be done with it. Don't make this about how horribly oppressed you are as protoss. If we don't QQ, then they won't realize the extent of the problem and will settle for making tweaks instead of a rehaul of the race. So we need to QQ. | ||
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UntoTheBreach
25 Posts
On September 12 2012 19:13 Coffee Zombie wrote: Well it's the truth. For most of the history of WoL, you got Terrans who made careers out doing nothing but spamming bioballs and learning a bit of micro. And that's all they did.Brilliant argumentation. I am in awe. How have the poor Terran players survived, "spamming bioballs" in WoL? Oh, right. The faction is now called Korean for some reason. Free wins, free wins all day. But yeah, horrible, horrible attitude, if perhaps understandabe after being beaten by stupid warhound spam one time too many. Admittedly in the end when Toss players learned how to beat bioballs and Zerg got the queen buff, Terran players had to get good. Before that it was the race of Xbox kiddies...and still is in HotS, with stupid units like the warhound. | ||
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Wayne123
88 Posts
I have watched a lot of pro games since TSL3 and the most stunning and awesome games usually involve Terran and Zerg players. There are exceptions like Stephano vs Kiwikaki at IPL 3 but most Protoss games are just dull. I don´t know why that is, but the stuff Terran and Zerg players do is much more entertaining compared to Protoss. Again, I´m not talking about skill and balance here, just from the perspective of me, a viewer. How many epic games exists with Protoss involved? I can only remember MVP vs Squirtle Game 5, Thorzain vs MC(TSL3) and Stephano vs Kiwikaki. There are so many awesome Terran and Zerg games to remember just to name a view: DRG vs MMA.(Blizzard Cup) Polt vs Stephano.(MLG, Lone Star Clash, ...) DRG vs MKP.(MLG) MMA vs Gumiho(GSTL Final) Freaky vs Bomber(GSL) Leenock vs Jjaki(GSL Final) MVP vs Top(GSL Final, Daybreak) Nestea vs SC(GSL Semifinal) Nestea vs MVP(Blizzcon) You could name a lot more games involving Terran and Zerg. I guess my point is that Protoss really needs some interesting features and useful features because right now, the Protoss race is just boring. | ||
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Woj
United States133 Posts
Pretty simple. We want change and not buying is honestly the only way we will get in. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
I feel like protoss matchups are quite interesting right now. We've seen a complete overhaul of strategy in both PvZ and PvT in the past 6 months, and with more research into multi-tasking and really taking advantage of the warp gate mechanic, we're starting to see even more interesting styles without colossus. Even PvP, which was exclusively 4-gate for a full year, has shown an immense amount of growth with a plethora of unique and interesting openings including stargate, 3-gate robo, 3-stalker rush, DT/archon rush, immortal drops, etc. Let's look around, people. It's really not anywhere near as bad as you're making it. I'd also like to add that, while I feel protoss is fine in WoL, I WOULD like to see some more interesting things come out of protoss than the bland, generally not useful units and abilities that have come with HotS. Hopefully some tweaks will be made to spice up the protoss metagame for HotS more. | ||
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TaShadan
Germany1981 Posts
protoss with tesla units would be cake | ||
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Havik_
United States5585 Posts
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GNear
Germany8 Posts
as most of you know the Tempest has terrible dps by design - because the high range needs some kind of counterbalance. ( 3.3 delay 30 dmg (+3) equates to 9.09 dps) the high range of 10 + 12 give this unit a lot of opportunity for harassment akin to the Mutalisk. albeit the Mutalisk gains his opportunity for harassment through Move-speed and not through range. though both of them are kinda terrible at direct confrontation. however unlike the Mutalisk the Tempest is very terrible at getting out of a bad spots - because its very slow. so here is my suggestion ; what if the Tempest DPS would be dependent on the range from which it was attacking ? The closer the Tempest is to its target the more dps it is dishing out. how so ? Instead of firing a single one way plasma-ball or w/e the Tempest will now fire a charged protoss-looking steel ball. ; so the Tempest is propelling the charged steelball towards the target with a constant missile speed. when the steelball hits it decharges ( deals damage ) and returns to the tempest like a JO-JO again with constant missile speed. The Tempest requires the steel-ball to return in order to shoot again which means that the DPS of the tempest is dependent on Distance and missile speed. the raw damage itself would not change (only through air dmg upgrades) for example dmg / shot = 60 , Missile speed 10.00 (minimum delay for a steel-ball to be recharged 1,5 sec) the minimum delay causes the Tempest to not get more effective vs targets inside of 7,5 range. because the steelball with 10.00 ms would only need 1,5sec for trip of 15 range (7,5 from tempest to target and 7,5 from target back to tempest) DPS vs Target at 5 range or less = 40 DPS vs Target at 7,5 range or less = 40 DPS vs Target at 10 range = 30 DPS vs Target at 15 range = 20 DPS vs Target at 20 range = 15 DPS vs Target at 22 range = 13,63 ofc the numbers for damage / shot (+ upgrade) , missile-speed and minimum delay can still be adjusted to reach balance. however just from a game-design-standpoint i think that this change would greatly improve the viability and the role of the Tempest in the Protoss-army. you could still tickle your enemy from far away at low risk. or get closer for higher DPS. but with this design the Tempest would also be an worthy asset in direct confrontation - which is only fair in my opinion. in the end the Tempest is a high cost t3 unit with little mobility and utility. unlike other flying units like phoenix and mutalisk. i think that this would be a great improvement - any other thoughts ? keep in mind that numbers can be easily tuned (base-dmg / missile-speed ) | ||
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SolidZeal
United States393 Posts
Then the nerf hammer hit and all 3 units look so bad that I actually hate watching PvX on the HotS beta streams. Tempests being even slower removed a lot of why i though 22 range was cool. The Oracle is so useless it makes my head hurt. I mean, when I watch HerO, who is such a great player, not even come close to making them cost efficient, it really makes me not like the game. The MC is so lame now...ugh, I'm not interested in buy HotS at all anymore as things stand. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 13 2012 02:14 GNear wrote: i have a design suggestion for the Tempest - and i didn't want to start new thread just for a single suggestion. as most of you know the Tempest has terrible dps by design - because the high range needs some kind of counterbalance. ( 3.3 delay 30 dmg (+3) equates to 9.09 dps) the high range of 10 + 12 give this unit a lot of opportunity for harassment akin to the Mutalisk. albeit the Mutalisk gains his opportunity for harassment through Move-speed and not through range. though both of them are kinda terrible at direct confrontation. however unlike the Mutalisk the Tempest is very terrible at getting out of a bad spots - because its very slow. so here is my suggestion ; what if the Tempest DPS would be dependent on the range from which it was attacking ? The closer the Tempest is to its target the more dps it is dishing out. how so ? Instead of firing a single one way plasma-ball or w/e the Tempest will now fire a charged protoss-looking steel ball. ; so the Tempest is propelling the charged steelball towards the target with a constant missile speed. when the steelball hits it decharges ( deals damage ) and returns to the tempest like a JO-JO again with constant missile speed. The Tempest requires the steel-ball to return in order to shoot again which means that the DPS of the tempest is dependent on Distance and missile speed. the raw damage itself would not change (only through air dmg upgrades) for example dmg / shot = 60 , Missile speed 10.00 (minimum delay for a steel-ball to be recharged 1,5 sec) the minimum delay causes the Tempest to not get more effective vs targets inside of 7,5 range. because the steelball with 10.00 ms would only need 1,5sec for trip of 15 range (7,5 from tempest to target and 7,5 from target back to tempest) DPS vs Target at 5 range or less = 40 DPS vs Target at 7,5 range or less = 40 DPS vs Target at 10 range = 30 DPS vs Target at 15 range = 20 DPS vs Target at 20 range = 15 DPS vs Target at 22 range = 13,63 ofc the numbers for damage / shot (+ upgrade) , missile-speed and minimum delay can still be adjusted to reach balance. however just from a game-design-standpoint i think that this change would greatly improve the viability and the role of the Tempest in the Protoss-army. you could still tickle your enemy from far away at low risk. or get closer for higher DPS. but with this design the Tempest would also be an worthy asset in direct confrontation - which is only fair in my opinion. in the end the Tempest is a high cost t3 unit with little mobility and utility. unlike other flying units like phoenix and mutalisk. i think that this would be a great improvement - any other thoughts ? keep in mind that numbers can be easily tuned (base-dmg / missile-speed ) No. On September 13 2012 02:10 Havik_ wrote: So they're not removing Warp Gate or the Sentry, this leaves me wondering what else they can do. I'd be in favor of a Stalker/Gateway buff, but that would create other issues. I think Protoss is fucked guys. I've been thinking about protoss in regards to the problems with the warhound, and I think the key problem with protoss as it stands now is that it doesn't have a meaty all-purpose unit. While stalkers and zealots fill the backbone of the protoss army and are interesting and, with correct micro, are quite cost-efficient, there's something lacking in their ability to take on small groups of MMM or roaches. That being said, I feel as if protoss units might be a little TOO specialized, and perhaps what protoss needs is a beefier all-around, general purpose unit. Blizzard will probably not address this, as it makes it easier to create a deathball with, but it's probably the main weakness of protoss versus the other races. | ||
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SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
On September 12 2012 17:31 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: Are you kidding me? The whole Protoss design is shitty because of those two things :/ We are not discussing removing Warp Gates or making any changes to the Sentry. Sorry. Why did Browder use two different verbs? Is he implying that Warp Gates will likely be changed (but not removed)? Or am I reading too much into this. | ||
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