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On September 12 2012 16:04 Rimak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 08:54 Lelden wrote:Well, the good news is there is a small glimmer of hope on the horizon. Dustin Browder posted here stating they are talking heavily about Protoss (and the Warhound): http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6551205172I don't want to get my hopes up too much, but right now it seems they can't make it worse. If they do then no one would play Protoss. Actually for myself HOPE is the only thing I have left. Up to right now Protoss have been pretty much overlooked and new units were implemented just for the sake of new units, they didn't actually add anything to a protoss gameplay. But even if we dump the new units - take for example terran, even the old, underused units were tweaked so make them useful: Reaper heal Battle helion mode Raven change Battlecruiser Buff As i said before, blizz seems to finally noticed that something is wrong, but let's be honest, they won't change the sentry or fix the warp-in. So our only hope is to pray for the sake of Aiur, that they will make us want to return to this game.
If you listen to this weeks Inside the Game, Idra and Incontrol said that Blizzard has a forum for the beta where they are communicating directly with the pros about the problems in the beta. Both Idra and Incontrol were very postive about the interaction with Blizzard and that they are aware of the issues with the new protoss units(and warhound). It sounds like Blizzard is taking the criticism and is willing to address things the pros are taking about. If you want to feel better about the beta, go listen to the show from this week.
Also, remember that the WoL units were not good until players really got their hands on them. Blizzard cannot fully design units until they see them in the hands of high level players. It takes time, effort and hard work.
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i see how my Tempest-suggestion would enhance the death-ball gameplay. but as it stands now the Tempest is all around pretty useless when it comes to efficiency cost (minerals / gas / supply) and tech time. and i dont think that 22 range do really offset these high cost / low dps.
i just don't see them making drastic changes seeing how they don't want to touch warpgate units and warpgate tech.
as long as the protoss depends on sentry for early game and warp-gate tech as the most versatile and effective way to get offensive / aggressive i dont see how the gameplay for protoss really changes.
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On September 13 2012 02:52 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 16:04 Rimak wrote:On September 12 2012 08:54 Lelden wrote:Well, the good news is there is a small glimmer of hope on the horizon. Dustin Browder posted here stating they are talking heavily about Protoss (and the Warhound): http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6551205172I don't want to get my hopes up too much, but right now it seems they can't make it worse. If they do then no one would play Protoss. Actually for myself HOPE is the only thing I have left. Up to right now Protoss have been pretty much overlooked and new units were implemented just for the sake of new units, they didn't actually add anything to a protoss gameplay. But even if we dump the new units - take for example terran, even the old, underused units were tweaked so make them useful: Reaper heal Battle helion mode Raven change Battlecruiser Buff As i said before, blizz seems to finally noticed that something is wrong, but let's be honest, they won't change the sentry or fix the warp-in. So our only hope is to pray for the sake of Aiur, that they will make us want to return to this game. If you listen to this weeks Inside the Game, Idra and Incontrol said that Blizzard has a forum for the beta where they are communicating directly with the pros about the problems in the beta. Both Idra and Incontrol were very postive about the interaction with Blizzard and that they are aware of the issues with the new protoss units(and warhound). It sounds like Blizzard is taking the criticism and is willing to address things the pros are taking about. If you want to feel better about the beta, go listen to the show from this week. Also, remember that the WoL units were not good until players really got their hands on them. Blizzard cannot fully design units until they see them in the hands of high level players. It takes time, effort and hard work.
That's awesome! Way better to listen to the pros than us noobs.
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On September 13 2012 02:47 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 17:31 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On September 12 2012 08:54 Lelden wrote:Well, the good news is there is a small glimmer of hope on the horizon. Dustin Browder posted here stating they are talking heavily about Protoss (and the Warhound): http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6551205172I don't want to get my hopes up too much, but right now it seems they can't make it worse. If they do then no one would play Protoss. We are not discussing removing Warp Gates or making any changes to the Sentry. Sorry. Are you kidding me? The whole Protoss design is shitty because of those two things :/ Show nested quote +We are not discussing removing Warp Gates or making any changes to the Sentry. Sorry. Why did Browder use two different verbs? Is he implying that Warp Gates will likely be changed (but not removed)? Or am I reading too much into this.
They made some warp changes. Can't do high ground anymore, I think.
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On September 13 2012 02:47 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 17:31 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On September 12 2012 08:54 Lelden wrote:Well, the good news is there is a small glimmer of hope on the horizon. Dustin Browder posted here stating they are talking heavily about Protoss (and the Warhound): http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6551205172I don't want to get my hopes up too much, but right now it seems they can't make it worse. If they do then no one would play Protoss. We are not discussing removing Warp Gates or making any changes to the Sentry. Sorry. Are you kidding me? The whole Protoss design is shitty because of those two things :/ Show nested quote +We are not discussing removing Warp Gates or making any changes to the Sentry. Sorry. Why did Browder use two different verbs? Is he implying that Warp Gates will likely be changed (but not removed)? Or am I reading too much into this.
Actually changes is a noun. The sentence is a little awkward, but the two verbs are removing and making, which is fine because and/or can bring together 2 independent clauses. The gist of what he's saying is that core WoL mechanics will not budge because it would throw off balance way too much.
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On September 13 2012 02:47 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 17:31 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On September 12 2012 08:54 Lelden wrote:Well, the good news is there is a small glimmer of hope on the horizon. Dustin Browder posted here stating they are talking heavily about Protoss (and the Warhound): http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6551205172I don't want to get my hopes up too much, but right now it seems they can't make it worse. If they do then no one would play Protoss. We are not discussing removing Warp Gates or making any changes to the Sentry. Sorry. Are you kidding me? The whole Protoss design is shitty because of those two things :/ Show nested quote +We are not discussing removing Warp Gates or making any changes to the Sentry. Sorry. Why did Browder use two different verbs? Is he implying that Warp Gates will likely be changed (but not removed)? Or am I reading too much into this.
Because those two different verbs are what people have been asking for. Removal of warp gates and changes to Sentry (specifically, changes to Forcefield).
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I still think that putting warpgate on the dark shrine, swapping forcefield and hallucination on the tech tree, would allow buffing gateway and nerfing colossus and improve the game significantly. It's inconceivable to me why mr rocks doesn't want this change.
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On September 13 2012 09:55 GoldenH wrote:
I still think that putting warpgate on the dark shrine, swapping forcefield and hallucination on the tech tree, would allow buffing gateway and nerfing colossus and improve the game significantly. It's inconceivable to me why mr rocks doesn't want this change.
If you would put the warpgate somewhere it obviously has to be the twighlight counsil. I don't like the idea, but that would be the tech Protoss usually has to progress to anyways. Darkshrine would be way to specific
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if you're saying protoss win's but isn't fun i completely agree, if you're trying to say they are bad i disagree, sry TL;DR
User was warned for this post
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On September 13 2012 10:15 Brahoono wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 09:55 GoldenH wrote:
I still think that putting warpgate on the dark shrine, swapping forcefield and hallucination on the tech tree, would allow buffing gateway and nerfing colossus and improve the game significantly. It's inconceivable to me why mr rocks doesn't want this change. If you would put the warpgate somewhere it obviously has to be the twighlight counsil. I don't like the idea, but that would be the tech Protoss usually has to progress to anyways. Darkshrine would be way to specific
You need it on the dark shrine to prevent warpin from finishing at the same time as the dark shrine, tho, so that DT can also be buffed. And then you will enable DT expands, instead of DT 'i hope he doesn't have detection' roulette.
The whole point of re balancing protoss should be to giving variety in playstyles, after all.
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Well as much as i hate those threads i actually have to agree with you. Let's see how they buff the oracle's energy cost(s) to be actually useful.
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It seems pointless to me this debate about warptech. It's never gonna change, it's too much of a core mechanic. Please remind we are talking about a game where it took a year and a half to figure out phoenix needed a buff to be used against mutalisks (and even then it was a shit buff), and a game where there's still stuff like 1/1/1 going around perfectly (actually improved with hots, since you can now 1/1/1 cheaper and earlier using warhounds insteand of siege tanks). And you think they're gonna do something as drastic as changing warpgate tech? It's wasted time, whether you like it or not. They said it, anyway. The best thing we can hope for is a complete overhaul of oracle and tempest, and at any rate I think the most realistic expectation can be a couple of changes in the abilities for the former and a stat buff (if anything) for the latter
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On September 13 2012 02:52 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 16:04 Rimak wrote:On September 12 2012 08:54 Lelden wrote:Well, the good news is there is a small glimmer of hope on the horizon. Dustin Browder posted here stating they are talking heavily about Protoss (and the Warhound): http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6551205172I don't want to get my hopes up too much, but right now it seems they can't make it worse. If they do then no one would play Protoss. Actually for myself HOPE is the only thing I have left. Up to right now Protoss have been pretty much overlooked and new units were implemented just for the sake of new units, they didn't actually add anything to a protoss gameplay. But even if we dump the new units - take for example terran, even the old, underused units were tweaked so make them useful: Reaper heal Battle helion mode Raven change Battlecruiser Buff As i said before, blizz seems to finally noticed that something is wrong, but let's be honest, they won't change the sentry or fix the warp-in. So our only hope is to pray for the sake of Aiur, that they will make us want to return to this game. If you listen to this weeks Inside the Game, Idra and Incontrol said that Blizzard has a forum for the beta where they are communicating directly with the pros about the problems in the beta. Both Idra and Incontrol were very postive about the interaction with Blizzard and that they are aware of the issues with the new protoss units(and warhound). It sounds like Blizzard is taking the criticism and is willing to address things the pros are taking about. If you want to feel better about the beta, go listen to the show from this week. Also, remember that the WoL units were not good until players really got their hands on them. Blizzard cannot fully design units until they see them in the hands of high level players. It takes time, effort and hard work.
Thanks for cheering me Up.
Really love this forum. =)
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This thread resonates with everything I have been feeling. The meta game for Protoss is SO FUCKING STALE!!! it's 2 base all-in or It's late game with 3-4 bases and you win off a single good engagement. OF course this is different for pvp because 4 gates have become really popular again so it's mostly 1 base vs 1 base. I really don't want to switch races because of how much I loved Protoss from BW and just the lore and everything. It feels like if you even mention Reavers in your post it's immediately discredited. Since every protoss hell every player would rather have Reavers then Colossus, and Warp gates are just crappy WE should have to chose between gateways and warpgates.
The way Blizzard has made protoss is that we have to play the game a certain way since that his how the metagame evolved. You have to have sentries early in PvZ or you just die to any early aggression. You have to sit in your base most of the game tell you have a good army or go all-in since we can't really defend at home if we are warping in at the front. Yeah I know that is a decision making thing but it makes Protoss really unstable in every matchup. Sorry I have complained and whined so much. I am going to go play some Iccup.
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On September 13 2012 02:34 SC2John wrote:I've been thinking about protoss in regards to the problems with the warhound, and I think the key problem with protoss as it stands now is that it doesn't have a meaty all-purpose unit. While stalkers and zealots fill the backbone of the protoss army and are interesting and, with correct micro, are quite cost-efficient, there's something lacking in their ability to take on small groups of MMM or roaches. That being said, I feel as if protoss units might be a little TOO specialized, and perhaps what protoss needs is a beefier all-around, general purpose unit.
Blizzard will probably not address this, as it makes it easier to create a deathball with, but it's probably the main weakness of protoss versus the other races.
I'm inclined to agree with your premise but not your conclusion. Protoss units are so specialised in their roles its very difficult to take on more general purpose units in small groups without an absurdly delicate balance in terms of the Protoss group composition. I can definitely support this as an idea which is likely to be one of the issues contributing to the problems with the Protoss race.
However claiming that having a unit like this would make deathballing even easier isn't something I agree with. Because at the moment the problem is the Protoss army HAS to basically be one huge lump because the units individually are so weak by themselves. Separating units out is generally wasteful, thus encourages one huge army with all the interacting elements together. A general purpose unit, on the other hand, would allow bits of that lump to be broken off much more effectively. And since they wouldn't be as good in the roles fulfilled already by other units there would be little benefit to simply balling them up in a huge group instead of having a mix of the other units.
To illustrate: Take 4 totally unupgraded Zealots, they're pretty rubbish compared to eight marines (same supply/mineral cost) and I know which I'd prefer to have in a small group to drop into an enemy base or to defend against someone else's drop. However a bunch of Zealots is way better at buffering damage for Colossi with their 100 health and 50 shield and inherent 1 armour compared with 45 base health for marines (with +10 for combat shield) and no other protection.
On September 13 2012 09:55 GoldenH wrote:
I still think that putting warpgate on the dark shrine, swapping forcefield and hallucination on the tech tree, would allow buffing gateway and nerfing colossus and improve the game significantly. It's inconceivable to me why mr rocks doesn't want this change.
Would have to be a HUGE buff to gateway units. Losing both early warpgate and forcefields would make Protoss just instantly die to any early game attack unless you make Zealots and Stalkers significantly stronger than Marines, Marauders, Zerglings and Roaches.
Also I'm not sure how you're saying that nerfing forcefield and warpgate would allow you to also nerf Colossi. Unless I'm missing something here. If you nerf Colossi you're going to have to make an even huger buff to gateway units or Protoss is just going to die both early game and late. But if you buff gateway units that much then proxy gateways could be unstoppable, and the complaints of "OMG WARP IN 30 ZEALOTS AFTER A BATTLE AND GG" would just get even worse.
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Been thinking about the energize ability for the mothership core. Why can't we Chrono Boost units to increase shield regeneration/energy? Nothing to crazy maybe 1.5x faster for 20 seconds. Also doing it to a Carrier would increase build time of interceptors that would help with fixing some problems. In the midgame or when you get up to 3 nexus Protoss normally always have spare chronos that just go into warp gates when your army dies.
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We have heard your concerns. We are on it the case. Our next patch will have lots of changes for Protoss. David is preparing a situation report for you guys that explains all the details. See what you think when he gets it out. Hopefully you will be playing with changes soon and we can see how it goes.
-Dustin Browder
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What do you guys think about increasing the mothership-core movement speed while in purify mode (maybe nerf something else like duration or damage or range if needed).
I like the mothership core a lot but purify seems kind of off and I think you want to avoid using it as its not very helpful.
It has so little range and the core moves so slow, so the opponent can avoid it and while you reposition the core purify is over. Also the core has not so much health and is easily killed if you can't micro it back. Visually the mothership core is spinning very fast and yet moving very slow; this seems weird.
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On September 13 2012 22:39 Lightspeaker wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 09:55 GoldenH wrote:
I still think that putting warpgate on the dark shrine, swapping forcefield and hallucination on the tech tree, would allow buffing gateway and nerfing colossus and improve the game significantly. It's inconceivable to me why mr rocks doesn't want this change. Would have to be a HUGE buff to gateway units. Losing both early warpgate and forcefields would make Protoss just instantly die to any early game attack unless you make Zealots and Stalkers significantly stronger than Marines, Marauders, Zerglings and Roaches. Also I'm not sure how you're saying that nerfing forcefield and warpgate would allow you to also nerf Colossi. Unless I'm missing something here. If you nerf Colossi you're going to have to make an even huger buff to gateway units or Protoss is just going to die both early game and late. But if you buff gateway units that much then proxy gateways could be unstoppable, and the complaints of "OMG WARP IN 30 ZEALOTS AFTER A BATTLE AND GG" would just get even worse.
Its kind of irrelevant because protoss already 'just instantly die' if there is an open natural, one gate expands just aren't safe, even though the other two races can comfortably fend off every all in Protoss can do, with no real damage 'oh, I got my nexus up 3-4 minutes later vs oh, I made him spend 200 minerals'.
As for colossus, basically any buff to gateway units will allow you to nerf colossus. You should not be relying on colossus anyway. As for late game warpins, you don't need to buff them so much that warpin 30 zealots is GG, but any buff will at least counteract the 'oh, I lost my entire army and I can't rebuild anything in time, gg'.
And sure, it's pointless to argue this because it won't get fixed, but it's also pointless to argue it because it isn't wrong. But it feels good to say it :8
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United States4883 Posts
On September 13 2012 22:39 Lightspeaker wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 02:34 SC2John wrote:I've been thinking about protoss in regards to the problems with the warhound, and I think the key problem with protoss as it stands now is that it doesn't have a meaty all-purpose unit. While stalkers and zealots fill the backbone of the protoss army and are interesting and, with correct micro, are quite cost-efficient, there's something lacking in their ability to take on small groups of MMM or roaches. That being said, I feel as if protoss units might be a little TOO specialized, and perhaps what protoss needs is a beefier all-around, general purpose unit.
Blizzard will probably not address this, as it makes it easier to create a deathball with, but it's probably the main weakness of protoss versus the other races. I'm inclined to agree with your premise but not your conclusion. Protoss units are so specialised in their roles its very difficult to take on more general purpose units in small groups without an absurdly delicate balance in terms of the Protoss group composition. I can definitely support this as an idea which is likely to be one of the issues contributing to the problems with the Protoss race. However claiming that having a unit like this would make deathballing even easier isn't something I agree with. Because at the moment the problem is the Protoss army HAS to basically be one huge lump because the units individually are so weak by themselves. Separating units out is generally wasteful, thus encourages one huge army with all the interacting elements together. A general purpose unit, on the other hand, would allow bits of that lump to be broken off much more effectively. And since they wouldn't be as good in the roles fulfilled already by other units there would be little benefit to simply balling them up in a huge group instead of having a mix of the other units. To illustrate: Take 4 totally unupgraded Zealots, they're pretty rubbish compared to eight marines (same supply/mineral cost) and I know which I'd prefer to have in a small group to drop into an enemy base or to defend against someone else's drop. However a bunch of Zealots is way better at buffering damage for Colossi with their 100 health and 50 shield and inherent 1 armour compared with 45 base health for marines (with +10 for combat shield) and no other protection.
Well, I maybe wasn't claiming something as much as suggesting at it. I think that Blizzard is trying to be very careful about making units that support a deathball. I honestly feel like marine/marauder, BECAUSE of their general versatility, have kind of lent themselves to this kind of deathbally feel (although with splits from AoE and other things, it's generally split up); I think, after looking at such an effect, Blizzard is trying to be careful with giving protoss a better zealot which would just better support a colossus deathball.
I think this comes out to "colossus is the worst thing ever to happen to SC" lol.
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