|
On July 11 2012 04:02 Genie1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2012 04:00 Toadvine wrote:On July 11 2012 03:55 Genie1 wrote:They need to remove Dustin Browder from the SC2 team. If they plan to have this game last beyond 2 years after the final release. I watching proleague yesterday on Sayle's stream and watching how badly  EffOrt lost due to just making tons of banelings. If EffOrt had a lurker the game would have looked vastly more different. He lost with 1,5k gas in the bank, having never made an infestation pit in a 20 minute game, after mining off four bases for a significant period of time. You can blame a lot on Dustin Browder, but this particular failure is all on Effort. And interestingly enough, the game itself was pretty good, and a lot of fun to watch. He kept on making banelings though so never having the money to actually afford any tech structures. The unit is badly designed and very poor counter to use against marines. A bad unit should not stay in the game and should be replaced by a unit that can actually be effective against units.
Imagine if you can rush in with ling/lurker with marines that cannot move and you will quite guess why lurkers wouldn't be a good unit in SC2.
I think that TeamLiquid needs to make an open petition on removing Dustin Balder off the SC2 team. He messed with this game long enough.
|
On July 11 2012 04:03 RegniG wrote:
I see so much enthusiasm, ideas and passion, however the majority of it seems to be lying with the community and not with the people making the game
Because we are the most valuable asset they have. W/o the us, its nothing.
|
On July 11 2012 04:12 DidYuhim wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2012 04:02 Genie1 wrote:On July 11 2012 04:00 Toadvine wrote:On July 11 2012 03:55 Genie1 wrote:They need to remove Dustin Browder from the SC2 team. If they plan to have this game last beyond 2 years after the final release. I watching proleague yesterday on Sayle's stream and watching how badly EffOrt lost due to just making tons of banelings. If EffOrt had a lurker the game would have looked vastly more different. He lost with 1,5k gas in the bank, having never made an infestation pit in a 20 minute game, after mining off four bases for a significant period of time. You can blame a lot on Dustin Browder, but this particular failure is all on Effort. And interestingly enough, the game itself was pretty good, and a lot of fun to watch. He kept on making banelings though so never having the money to actually afford any tech structures. The unit is badly designed and very poor counter to use against marines. A bad unit should not stay in the game and should be replaced by a unit that can actually be effective against units. Imagine if you can rush in with ling/lurker with marines that cannot move and you will quite guess why lurkers wouldn't be a good unit in SC2. I think that TeamLiquid needs to make an open petition on removing Dustin Balder off the SC2 team. He messed with this game long enough.
Go start a thread, see if TL will allow it. (hint: they won't, and calling him Dustin Balder won't help)
Actually, "the community" has no good ideas if by community one means people in this thread. I get it, change is scary and when Blizzard takes something away it furthers resentment against them. But you can't look into the future, you don't know how the units that will take their place will end up. I guess it's easier to just whine and make up rationalizations for why Brood War units should be added to the game, but that's certainly a failure of imagination imo.
|
On July 11 2012 04:02 Genie1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2012 04:00 Toadvine wrote:On July 11 2012 03:55 Genie1 wrote:They need to remove Dustin Browder from the SC2 team. If they plan to have this game last beyond 2 years after the final release. I watching proleague yesterday on Sayle's stream and watching how badly EffOrt lost due to just making tons of banelings. If EffOrt had a lurker the game would have looked vastly more different. He lost with 1,5k gas in the bank, having never made an infestation pit in a 20 minute game, after mining off four bases for a significant period of time. You can blame a lot on Dustin Browder, but this particular failure is all on Effort. And interestingly enough, the game itself was pretty good, and a lot of fun to watch. He kept on making banelings though so never having the money to actually afford any tech structures. The unit is badly designed and very poor counter to use against marines. A bad unit should not stay in the game and should be replaced by a unit that can actually be effective against units.
Banelings are actually one of the better new SC2 units. They force the opponent to micro, can be used in straight up engagements, drops in minerals lines or on top of armies, and as land mines. They singlehandedly make ZvZ not retarded (like BW ZvZ usually was), and play a vital role in TvZ. Just because Effort decided to make only banelings against bio with tank support, does not mean they're poorly designed.
Truthfully, it's Infestors (what effort should've been making) that are poorly designed and make the game worse than it could be.
|
On July 11 2012 02:34 naastyOne wrote:
Considering there are sooo freaking many gues on TL that know how to make a perfect RTS, one wonders why we still do not have one, and all we can do is to shit at blizzards obviously unsuccesfull and dumb sequell of still perfectly alive and very popular RTS.
It's not like the credit goes to Blizzard that SC2 is popular and is where it is today. If it wasn't for the pillars of this community that came from BW, this game would be fucking dead by now. The only reason Dustin Browder didn't fail at another game is because it has the name Starcraft in the titel and the already Starcraft community here on Teamliquid just automaticly transfered over because it was a sequel. If the game was released as Space Wars in 2010 with the exact same gameplay and Teamliquid, Day9. Tastosis. Husky and HDStarcraft etc didn't care for it at all and couldn't make money out of it like they were able to and just stayed with BW, where would this Space Wars be today do you think?
EDIT: Spelling and shietttttt
|
On July 11 2012 04:28 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2012 04:12 DidYuhim wrote:On July 11 2012 04:02 Genie1 wrote:On July 11 2012 04:00 Toadvine wrote:On July 11 2012 03:55 Genie1 wrote:They need to remove Dustin Browder from the SC2 team. If they plan to have this game last beyond 2 years after the final release. I watching proleague yesterday on Sayle's stream and watching how badly EffOrt lost due to just making tons of banelings. If EffOrt had a lurker the game would have looked vastly more different. He lost with 1,5k gas in the bank, having never made an infestation pit in a 20 minute game, after mining off four bases for a significant period of time. You can blame a lot on Dustin Browder, but this particular failure is all on Effort. And interestingly enough, the game itself was pretty good, and a lot of fun to watch. He kept on making banelings though so never having the money to actually afford any tech structures. The unit is badly designed and very poor counter to use against marines. A bad unit should not stay in the game and should be replaced by a unit that can actually be effective against units. Imagine if you can rush in with ling/lurker with marines that cannot move and you will quite guess why lurkers wouldn't be a good unit in SC2. I think that TeamLiquid needs to make an open petition on removing Dustin Balder off the SC2 team. He messed with this game long enough. Go start a thread, see if TL will allow it. (hint: they won't, and calling him Dustin Balder won't help) Actually, "the community" has no good ideas if by community one means people in this thread. I get it, change is scary and when Blizzard takes something away it furthers resentment against them. But you can't look into the future, you don't know how the units that will take their place will end up. I guess it's easier to just whine and make up rationalizations for why Brood War units should be added to the game, but that's certainly a failure of imagination imo.
Thank you. I was being subtle before when I said that I would wait for the beta to pass judgment on changes, hoping that other people would catch on that the smart thing to do is to wait to see how the new stuff looks in beta form when we actually get to play with it. No dice though.
It really seems to boil down to "change is scary." See I can remember when StarCraft 1 was first released, and I can remember when Brood War was first released. StarCraft 1 on release was terribly balanced and the balance patches that came after sometimes made things even worse. When Brood War came out the game was still terribly balanced, but eventually it got to the point that it's at today. These things really do take some time.
It's pretty obvious that Blizzard is learning. They do listen to the community, slowly, but they listen. They're also more careful with balance than they have been in the past. In the past it was pretty common for Blizzard to release a patch where they would just absolutely gut a unit that was too strong, or increase the damage of a unit by 25-30% if it felt too weak. Now you get things like +/- 1 range on a unit, very slight movement speed changes, +/- 1 armor, etc. They're taking baby steps towards balancing. You know, balance, it's delicate. Personally I'm happy that Blizzard isn't taking the bull in a china shop approach.
With the expansion, yeah they're making some big changes, changes that may take some getting used to. This is pretty standard, they did that with Brood War as well. They did it with the War 3 expansion, they've done it with every expansion they've ever released. They see stuff they don't like so they change it.
Just because something is different it doesn't mean that it's bad, we really need to wait until we get it into our hands, and other capable hands, before we can start pulling it apart. At the moment it's nothing but eye candy. If in practice it's broken we'll get them to fix it. If they didn't care about our feedback they wouldn't have beta tests, but we need to actually have experience with the changes before we can give them valuable feedback.
|
On July 11 2012 04:02 Genie1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2012 04:00 Toadvine wrote:On July 11 2012 03:55 Genie1 wrote:They need to remove Dustin Browder from the SC2 team. If they plan to have this game last beyond 2 years after the final release. I watching proleague yesterday on Sayle's stream and watching how badly EffOrt lost due to just making tons of banelings. If EffOrt had a lurker the game would have looked vastly more different. He lost with 1,5k gas in the bank, having never made an infestation pit in a 20 minute game, after mining off four bases for a significant period of time. You can blame a lot on Dustin Browder, but this particular failure is all on Effort. And interestingly enough, the game itself was pretty good, and a lot of fun to watch. He kept on making banelings though so never having the money to actually afford any tech structures. The unit is badly designed and very poor counter to use against marines. A bad unit should not stay in the game and should be replaced by a unit that can actually be effective against units.
banelings are actually incredibly powerful IF TANKS DIDNT EXIST
if tanks didnt exist banelings just roll through everything
but when tanks are on the field, 10banelings kinda has the same effect as 50 banelings. its so easy while zergs attacking for banelings to clump and then 1 tank shot kills 15 banelings
infestors are almost always the smarter choice because 1 infestor costs as much as 6banelings (gas wise) however their fungal is longrange and fast so just click it on a pack of marines and boom they take insane damage chain fungal twice and a ball of bio is practically dead. and if you micro well and save infestors for another battle a couple infestors can have the power of 100 banelings in TvZ literally
i think the smartest way to use banelings is always have about 12 of them at your main defensive position for your 3bases, then when you go fight on the map take 6 of those banelings, hotkey them into your main army and fight with those 6 banelings in your army. then you fight that battle and hopefully trade well and then for the next battle use the next 6 banelings while morphing 6more to serve as backup again
as far as im concerned 6 banelings in your army is still pretty powerful, almost as powerful as 50 if your enemy has tanks, but way cheaper than 50, and with infestor support you wreck everything. infestors also have a very insane strength in infested terran bombing tanklines trading 25 energy for multiple tank shots at the start of battle, where as banelings trade 10 banelings (500 minerals 250 gas) for a single tank shot
|
On July 11 2012 04:28 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2012 04:12 DidYuhim wrote:On July 11 2012 04:02 Genie1 wrote:On July 11 2012 04:00 Toadvine wrote:On July 11 2012 03:55 Genie1 wrote:They need to remove Dustin Browder from the SC2 team. If they plan to have this game last beyond 2 years after the final release. I watching proleague yesterday on Sayle's stream and watching how badly EffOrt lost due to just making tons of banelings. If EffOrt had a lurker the game would have looked vastly more different. He lost with 1,5k gas in the bank, having never made an infestation pit in a 20 minute game, after mining off four bases for a significant period of time. You can blame a lot on Dustin Browder, but this particular failure is all on Effort. And interestingly enough, the game itself was pretty good, and a lot of fun to watch. He kept on making banelings though so never having the money to actually afford any tech structures. The unit is badly designed and very poor counter to use against marines. A bad unit should not stay in the game and should be replaced by a unit that can actually be effective against units. Imagine if you can rush in with ling/lurker with marines that cannot move and you will quite guess why lurkers wouldn't be a good unit in SC2. I think that TeamLiquid needs to make an open petition on removing Dustin Balder off the SC2 team. He messed with this game long enough. Go start a thread, see if TL will allow it. (hint: they won't, and calling him Dustin Balder won't help) Actually, "the community" has no good ideas if by community one means people in this thread. I get it, change is scary and when Blizzard takes something away it furthers resentment against them. But you can't look into the future, you don't know how the units that will take their place will end up. I guess it's easier to just whine and make up rationalizations for why Brood War units should be added to the game, but that's certainly a failure of imagination imo.
You are wrong, but i guess you want to look at this as half-empty. The truth is that there are many suggestions in various threads that have enough merit to be seriously considered for improving this game but it will never happen. Personally i am the first one to admit that i don't want another BW (look at my post history) and i firmly believbe that suggesting to put in the game BW units is just dumb. But the way the "Blizzard balancing team" has been diluting this game in the effort to balance based on the metagame (a lot of times) and now adding boring 1a units to the race which clearly had the higher skill/reward ratio to battle the boring units of the other two races is frankly diheartening to say the least. Honestly, HOTS looks horrible at the moment and considering the poor job that Blizzard had done after the release of WOL i am very pessimistic.
|
On July 11 2012 05:30 nvrs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2012 04:28 Grumbels wrote:On July 11 2012 04:12 DidYuhim wrote:On July 11 2012 04:02 Genie1 wrote:On July 11 2012 04:00 Toadvine wrote:On July 11 2012 03:55 Genie1 wrote:They need to remove Dustin Browder from the SC2 team. If they plan to have this game last beyond 2 years after the final release. I watching proleague yesterday on Sayle's stream and watching how badly EffOrt lost due to just making tons of banelings. If EffOrt had a lurker the game would have looked vastly more different. He lost with 1,5k gas in the bank, having never made an infestation pit in a 20 minute game, after mining off four bases for a significant period of time. You can blame a lot on Dustin Browder, but this particular failure is all on Effort. And interestingly enough, the game itself was pretty good, and a lot of fun to watch. He kept on making banelings though so never having the money to actually afford any tech structures. The unit is badly designed and very poor counter to use against marines. A bad unit should not stay in the game and should be replaced by a unit that can actually be effective against units. Imagine if you can rush in with ling/lurker with marines that cannot move and you will quite guess why lurkers wouldn't be a good unit in SC2. I think that TeamLiquid needs to make an open petition on removing Dustin Balder off the SC2 team. He messed with this game long enough. Go start a thread, see if TL will allow it. (hint: they won't, and calling him Dustin Balder won't help) Actually, "the community" has no good ideas if by community one means people in this thread. I get it, change is scary and when Blizzard takes something away it furthers resentment against them. But you can't look into the future, you don't know how the units that will take their place will end up. I guess it's easier to just whine and make up rationalizations for why Brood War units should be added to the game, but that's certainly a failure of imagination imo. You are wrong, but i guess you want to look at this as half-empty. The truth is that there are many suggestions in various threads that have enough merit to be seriously considered for improving this game but it will never happen. Personally i am the first one to admit that i don't want another BW (look at my post history) and i firmly believbe that suggesting to put in the game BW units is just dumb. But the way the "Blizzard balancing team" has been diluting this game in the effort to balance based on the metagame (a lot of times) and now adding boring 1a units to the race which clearly had the higher skill/reward ratio to battle the boring units of the other two races is frankly diheartening to say the least. Honestly, HOTS looks horrible at the moment and considering the poor job that Blizzard had done after the release of WOL i am very pessimistic.
I agree with this bolded part most strongly. Think about the units added to BW from the original Starcraft: Valkyrie, Corsair, Devourer. Medic, Dark Archon, Dark Templar, Lurker.
The units they added don't feel like units that improve what the races could already do. They let all 3 races do new things they couldn't do before. A lot - not all - but a lot of Blizzard's current new unit/balance approach is "fix what already exists," not "expand and create something new."
Fixing things like Zerg's ability to attack, or Protoss's passivity shouldn't come from a new unit. It should come from tinkering with current values like minor patches. New units should focus on adding new aspects to the game that nobody could've ever imagined before because, well, they didn't exist.
Basically instead of innovating, Blizzard is playing a sloppy catch-up game with player complaints.
|
On July 11 2012 05:03 MVega wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2012 04:28 Grumbels wrote:On July 11 2012 04:12 DidYuhim wrote:On July 11 2012 04:02 Genie1 wrote:On July 11 2012 04:00 Toadvine wrote:On July 11 2012 03:55 Genie1 wrote:They need to remove Dustin Browder from the SC2 team. If they plan to have this game last beyond 2 years after the final release. I watching proleague yesterday on Sayle's stream and watching how badly EffOrt lost due to just making tons of banelings. If EffOrt had a lurker the game would have looked vastly more different. He lost with 1,5k gas in the bank, having never made an infestation pit in a 20 minute game, after mining off four bases for a significant period of time. You can blame a lot on Dustin Browder, but this particular failure is all on Effort. And interestingly enough, the game itself was pretty good, and a lot of fun to watch. He kept on making banelings though so never having the money to actually afford any tech structures. The unit is badly designed and very poor counter to use against marines. A bad unit should not stay in the game and should be replaced by a unit that can actually be effective against units. Imagine if you can rush in with ling/lurker with marines that cannot move and you will quite guess why lurkers wouldn't be a good unit in SC2. I think that TeamLiquid needs to make an open petition on removing Dustin Balder off the SC2 team. He messed with this game long enough. Go start a thread, see if TL will allow it. (hint: they won't, and calling him Dustin Balder won't help) Actually, "the community" has no good ideas if by community one means people in this thread. I get it, change is scary and when Blizzard takes something away it furthers resentment against them. But you can't look into the future, you don't know how the units that will take their place will end up. I guess it's easier to just whine and make up rationalizations for why Brood War units should be added to the game, but that's certainly a failure of imagination imo. Thank you. I was being subtle before when I said that I would wait for the beta to pass judgment on changes, hoping that other people would catch on that the smart thing to do is to wait to see how the new stuff looks in beta form when we actually get to play with it. No dice though. It really seems to boil down to "change is scary." See I can remember when StarCraft 1 was first released, and I can remember when Brood War was first released. StarCraft 1 on release was terribly balanced and the balance patches that came after sometimes made things even worse. When Brood War came out the game was still terribly balanced, but eventually it got to the point that it's at today. These things really do take some time. It's pretty obvious that Blizzard is learning. They do listen to the community, slowly, but they listen. They're also more careful with balance than they have been in the past. In the past it was pretty common for Blizzard to release a patch where they would just absolutely gut a unit that was too strong, or increase the damage of a unit by 25-30% if it felt too weak. Now you get things like +/- 1 range on a unit, very slight movement speed changes, +/- 1 armor, etc. They're taking baby steps towards balancing. You know, balance, it's delicate. Personally I'm happy that Blizzard isn't taking the bull in a china shop approach. With the expansion, yeah they're making some big changes, changes that may take some getting used to. This is pretty standard, they did that with Brood War as well. They did it with the War 3 expansion, they've done it with every expansion they've ever released. They see stuff they don't like so they change it. Just because something is different it doesn't mean that it's bad, we really need to wait until we get it into our hands, and other capable hands, before we can start pulling it apart. At the moment it's nothing but eye candy. If in practice it's broken we'll get them to fix it. If they didn't care about our feedback they wouldn't have beta tests, but we need to actually have experience with the changes before we can give them valuable feedback.
This is a great post, it doesn't even matter if you agree with what he is stating or not. The way he presents his ideas in a non "get your pitchforks" way is the real way to discuss what this community thinks should be done. Just wanted to point that out.
Well on to what i would like to say, HOTS seems kinda off from what has been provided to us by blizzard, the lack of improvement in certain areas and the seemingly wasted energy in areas that seemed fine as they were. However, we really have to wait and see how the units feel in the game. Let's be honest who didn't originally look at the baneling before WoL beta came out and wasn't appalled by it.
The other changes that I see great promise in (adds to the skill of the game, micro intensive play, excitement, ability for innovation, etc.) are:
PROTOSS
-Mothership core: With the recall ability I think Blizzard is trying to get earlier skirmishes to start and take place to avoid the stalemate that generally occurs up until the 10ish minute mark, possibly longer with the larger maps. Toss has a whole lot of all-ins that present a balance issue but this change is a promising one in my mind.
22 range, plus new raiding units- Both are focused on harassment/break stalemate positions. With the addition of these low/no dps units are an attempt to reduce the toss deathball as they take a large amount of supply to be effective at their jobs (my opinion, is not certain until beta.)
Overall i feel as though they are giving Toss a variety of options to discourage turtling to deathball, and Toss players should be greatly excited in my opinion
TERRAN
-disclaimer: I am a Terran player but am trying to be as open as possible to the changes so take everything with a grain salt.
-Battle Hellion: Frankly its a little disappointing from a creativity standpoint, but from an innovation standpoint I am excited. It'll for sure make Zergs stay of their toes in early game as it opens up a whole of pushes. Also it is no secret that JB wants to promote mech, these new tanky units will help tank some of that massive damage the toss army puts out similarly to Marauders but they do bonus light damage.
-Warhound: I don't really have an opinion frankly, havent decided if i approve or disapprove yet.
-Widow Mine: Same as above, also removes deathball as they take supply and cant to immediate damage.
Battlecruiser speed ability: Biggest change for TvP in my opinion, it gives the Terran a powerhouse in late game. You use the speed boost to drain energy in preparation for the battle to not only get to the battle quicker but to also nullify any feedbacks. Needless to say i think this upgrade will play a huge role
ZERG
-Overall (no specifics really): I feel like they are trying to allow zergs to be able to skirmish without taking a SIGNIFICANT hit in drone count (another deathball avoidance attempt thing in my opinion),
Blizzard overall seems to have a specific goal in mind for each race, but IMO their main goal is to encourage skirmishes throughout the game. They seem to want every race in every MU to be able to go back and forth as aggressor and defender so that the game increases in entertainment value and general joy that is derived from playing, and we all know having little battles throughout the game to test the opponent is way more entertaining than the deathball battles we tend to see now.
The adjustments they have made in WoL seems to put holes in my theory but who knows what goes on in their heads xD.
|
I'm not to excited about Protoss and Terran in HOTS. I was hoping for more love for the Templar Tech. Especially for the DT. Bring back the Dark Archon Blizz. But, with new spells. The oracle is nice, but I feel that the cloak should be passive. Vikings can shit on a stagnate oracle in like 2 seconds. The Tempest is boring and stupid. Fix the Carrier Blizzard!!!!. All it needs is to have pre-built Interceptors and a faster build time. A speed buff equal to the BC would be nice too.
Terran Need more remodeling. Terran has the most nitch specific units, yet they are the slowest to Transition. Terran should be the race that's like," I'm going to do this composition(Bio, BioTank, Mech) and they have to respond to me". Protoss and Zerg can Tech switch in an instant, Terran can't. We need a way to transition into the Lategame. In BW all games eventually devolved into the Terran going Mech. It was strong sturdy slow and expensive. And the only way to pull it off was by either taking and economic advantage by FE or Harassing the opponent.
For some reason DK and DB think Mech is purely about Turtling to 200/200. This is a horrible idea. No race should EZPZ get too 200/200 Death Army with out having to put work to get there.
Zerg looks cool, but there are some changes I don't like. Such as "Pull" and Ultra Charge. The first seems useless against Protoss because of Blink, but OP verses the Tank. And the second just seems straight up OP and gimmicky. Ultras need a slightly smaller model and a speed upgrade. That's about it.
EDIT: In regards to Terran HOTS units. Warhound, and BattleHellion are lazy, boring answers to the issues Terran face in the TvP lategame. Also the Widow mine is a gimmick unit that will be solved during the 1st month of Beta. Collosi and HTs are Flipping 9 range mine sweepers. Not to mention that Broodlings, FG, and Locust completly crap on them.
|
On July 11 2012 05:03 MVega wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2012 04:28 Grumbels wrote:On July 11 2012 04:12 DidYuhim wrote:On July 11 2012 04:02 Genie1 wrote:On July 11 2012 04:00 Toadvine wrote:On July 11 2012 03:55 Genie1 wrote:They need to remove Dustin Browder from the SC2 team. If they plan to have this game last beyond 2 years after the final release. I watching proleague yesterday on Sayle's stream and watching how badly EffOrt lost due to just making tons of banelings. If EffOrt had a lurker the game would have looked vastly more different. He lost with 1,5k gas in the bank, having never made an infestation pit in a 20 minute game, after mining off four bases for a significant period of time. You can blame a lot on Dustin Browder, but this particular failure is all on Effort. And interestingly enough, the game itself was pretty good, and a lot of fun to watch. He kept on making banelings though so never having the money to actually afford any tech structures. The unit is badly designed and very poor counter to use against marines. A bad unit should not stay in the game and should be replaced by a unit that can actually be effective against units. Imagine if you can rush in with ling/lurker with marines that cannot move and you will quite guess why lurkers wouldn't be a good unit in SC2. I think that TeamLiquid needs to make an open petition on removing Dustin Balder off the SC2 team. He messed with this game long enough. Go start a thread, see if TL will allow it. (hint: they won't, and calling him Dustin Balder won't help) Actually, "the community" has no good ideas if by community one means people in this thread. I get it, change is scary and when Blizzard takes something away it furthers resentment against them. But you can't look into the future, you don't know how the units that will take their place will end up. I guess it's easier to just whine and make up rationalizations for why Brood War units should be added to the game, but that's certainly a failure of imagination imo. Thank you. I was being subtle before when I said that I would wait for the beta to pass judgment on changes, hoping that other people would catch on that the smart thing to do is to wait to see how the new stuff looks in beta form when we actually get to play with it. No dice though. It really seems to boil down to "change is scary." See I can remember when StarCraft 1 was first released, and I can remember when Brood War was first released. StarCraft 1 on release was terribly balanced and the balance patches that came after sometimes made things even worse. When Brood War came out the game was still terribly balanced, but eventually it got to the point that it's at today. These things really do take some time. It's pretty obvious that Blizzard is learning. They do listen to the community, slowly, but they listen. They're also more careful with balance than they have been in the past. In the past it was pretty common for Blizzard to release a patch where they would just absolutely gut a unit that was too strong, or increase the damage of a unit by 25-30% if it felt too weak. Now you get things like +/- 1 range on a unit, very slight movement speed changes, +/- 1 armor, etc. They're taking baby steps towards balancing. You know, balance, it's delicate. Personally I'm happy that Blizzard isn't taking the bull in a china shop approach. With the expansion, yeah they're making some big changes, changes that may take some getting used to. This is pretty standard, they did that with Brood War as well. They did it with the War 3 expansion, they've done it with every expansion they've ever released. They see stuff they don't like so they change it. Just because something is different it doesn't mean that it's bad, we really need to wait until we get it into our hands, and other capable hands, before we can start pulling it apart. At the moment it's nothing but eye candy. If in practice it's broken we'll get them to fix it. If they didn't care about our feedback they wouldn't have beta tests, but we need to actually have experience with the changes before we can give them valuable feedback.
Based upon WC3 I think there is a good reason to be scared.
WC3 classic had a HUGE problems with casters being to all around good, they had strong spells and a decent attack and weren't even THAT squishy compared to other "small" units.....
Don't get me wrong, TfT is a good game and for sure improved W3c BUT i liked the W3c "dmg/armor-system" better (for everyone that does not remember/know, TfT changed the whole armor/attack-counter mechanics, it even added in a completly new one for many existing units AND it cut all unit prices by 20% or something like that AND allowed higher max supply with later upkeep penalties.)
I allways tought the DMG-System change was unecessary, why was never really tryed to just nerf the crap out of Caster-Damagel? They nerfed some of them several times, a bit but they still kept dominating everything... The obvious answer was NERF THEM MORE... But for some reason they did not want that, they even added anti-caster units for 2-3 of the races with TfT but still seemed to think that would not be enough (destroyers, bloodelve-guys and, somewhat, mountain giants) .
Now i don't know if a WC3-TfT with "fixed" caster damage would have been the better game, but I allways tought that rehauling your whole dmg-system just because your not willing to nerf the dmg of certain units to the ground (spellcasters) was an overreaction ^^.
TFT worked out very good and i was a big fan of the cost/upkeep reduction but i think a fixed WC3 system (with most of the other stuff TfT brought) could have been better.
To this day i'm kinda impressed by the balls they had to change the game like that, they for sure don't have the balls to do something like this anymore... Else HOTS would probably look very diffrent because judging from the WC3 to TfT transition NOTHING seemed impossible to change.
|
I can't believe the mech unit will still require that incredibly slow thor for air coverage and that Siege tanks are going to get even worse. To those of you saying that bringing back BW is a bad idea since its not creative well guess what, the new blizz is even less creative than that. A mine that takes ten seconds to explode? whats stopping me from attacking my own marine or mara or hellion its attached to and killing it in 1/2 second before it goes off?
Tempest instead of fixing the carrier? Fail.
The zergs new pull ability? Hm... if its good, ppl wont build certain units. If its bad, ppl wont use it. Less diversity=bad. Same issue they've had with NP for the last year and half.
Warp gates are terrible for previous reasons stated. Needs removal.
Protoss get a worry free attack and a planetary fortress on top of that? Why dont zerg and terran get free attacks no punishment for making bad decision attacks? No one should have that. If you make a bad attack you should be punished for it.
The reason for the recall ability is terrible. The sentry is a terrible unit w/ FF. FF and warp gate (just happen to be 'new blizz's ideas) have broken protoss into using FF as a crutch and now they are making an even worse decision to try and fix it by making a recall ability.
Rapidly losing faith in blizzard. I'll wait til this expo is in beta to say they are done for as pc gaming king. But things aren't looking good imo.
|
On July 11 2012 04:28 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2012 04:12 DidYuhim wrote:On July 11 2012 04:02 Genie1 wrote:On July 11 2012 04:00 Toadvine wrote:On July 11 2012 03:55 Genie1 wrote:They need to remove Dustin Browder from the SC2 team. If they plan to have this game last beyond 2 years after the final release. I watching proleague yesterday on Sayle's stream and watching how badly EffOrt lost due to just making tons of banelings. If EffOrt had a lurker the game would have looked vastly more different. He lost with 1,5k gas in the bank, having never made an infestation pit in a 20 minute game, after mining off four bases for a significant period of time. You can blame a lot on Dustin Browder, but this particular failure is all on Effort. And interestingly enough, the game itself was pretty good, and a lot of fun to watch. He kept on making banelings though so never having the money to actually afford any tech structures. The unit is badly designed and very poor counter to use against marines. A bad unit should not stay in the game and should be replaced by a unit that can actually be effective against units. Imagine if you can rush in with ling/lurker with marines that cannot move and you will quite guess why lurkers wouldn't be a good unit in SC2. I think that TeamLiquid needs to make an open petition on removing Dustin Balder off the SC2 team. He messed with this game long enough. Go start a thread, see if TL will allow it. (hint: they won't, and calling him Dustin Balder won't help) Actually, "the community" has no good ideas if by community one means people in this thread. I get it, change is scary and when Blizzard takes something away it furthers resentment against them. But you can't look into the future, you don't know how the units that will take their place will end up. I guess it's easier to just whine and make up rationalizations for why Brood War units should be added to the game, but that's certainly a failure of imagination imo.
If you look at hots, brood war units where added into the game, but kinda changed and washed down to gimicky crap.
widow mine= wana be spider mine
warhound= wana be goliath
viper= wana be defiler
swarm host= wana be lurker
oracle= wana be arbiter
A 22 range unit has no place in an rts, like wtf is he thinking? That stops any posturing to happen, posturing is what makes death balls smaller, if an army can't set up a position because some 22 range unit gets free shots off, how are they supppost to go harass, attack other places. That was the beauty of BW you could set up a position and atack from it through different paths, that's what made the armys smaller. I like the idea of removing dustin browder as he's got no clue as to how to make units. A good testament to that would be to look at the red alert series, total crap.
|
I wish the next interview with Dustin Browder would actually press him on the carrier and follow-up with the community made points on why the Carrier should stay that DB doesn't read/ignores. Seriously, one of the most widely discussed topics surrounding HotS (not just on TL). DB claims they read as much as they can about user feedback, and every single time the carrier arguments go over DB's radar in every interview. Somehow he only catches the same argument he caught months ago about the Carrier being iconic.
Sigh.
|
So all Terran will get is MAYBE the widow mine, reaper life regen updrade,a shitty transformer robot, and the warhound?? Is there ANYONE in Blizzard who plays Terran?
|
On July 11 2012 05:49 Sockpuppet wrote:
TERRAN
-disclaimer: I am a Terran player but am trying to be as open as possible to the changes so take everything with a grain salt.
-Battle Hellion: Frankly its a little disappointing from a creativity standpoint, but from an innovation standpoint I am excited. It'll for sure make Zergs stay of their toes in early game as it opens up a whole of pushes. Also it is no secret that JB wants to promote mech, these new tanky units will help tank some of that massive damage the toss army puts out similarly to Marauders but they do bonus light damage.
-Warhound: I don't really have an opinion frankly, havent decided if i approve or disapprove yet.
-Widow Mine: Same as above, also removes deathball as they take supply and cant to immediate damage.
Battlecruiser speed ability: Biggest change for TvP in my opinion, it gives the Terran a powerhouse in late game. You use the speed boost to drain energy in preparation for the battle to not only get to the battle quicker but to also nullify any feedbacks. Needless to say i think this upgrade will play a huge role
Battle Hellion - that doesn't feel like a real new unit. It could be good if it was more different from fast hellion ; but right now it's not really interesting.
Warhound - enjoy your mechanical 1a move marauder.
Widow Mines - they are very effective defensively and will effectively shut down all harass, thus making your deathball way stronger. That and both reusing the BW unit and implementing something new are fine by me, bu ripping off BW with a different name and making the unit less interesting in the process is just plain bad.
Battlecruiser ability - another useless energy dump for feedback, just like strike cannons. Doesn't fix the main problem of BC's : they suck at actually fighting.
As much as I like the protoss and zerg ideas, I feel that Blizzard are seriously fucking up with terran. Especially with every new unit being shown as a counter to tanks.
|
On July 10 2012 12:04 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point. ?????????????????????????????
my thoughts exactly, yeah cause a sentry zealot stalker army is terribad. FU DUSTIN¬
|
Vatican City State582 Posts
if widow mines do get removed, there's nothing in store for the terran lol
|
If they don't find the right cost for the widow mine, they better give terran something else. As it is, it is the less exciting race for the expansion. Furthermore, few people want to play terran this days. If they just give us the warhound and the battle hellion, terran will die.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
