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On July 11 2012 00:34 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 23:14 SpiZe wrote:On July 10 2012 20:54 Toadvine wrote:
I should stop reading these interviews, the nonsense oozing out of them just makes me depressed. Or maybe I should keep reading, so my decision not to buy HotS is reinforced.
I mean, do you really look at how the game is now, and decide "Zerg should be able to just kill the opponent after getting ahead."? Not being able to instantly convert an advantage (which they get by default) into a win is the only thing keeping them from winning every game where they don't die to an all-in. It's difficult enough for both Terran and Protoss to defend various 3 base attacks from Zerg, right now.
And the comment about TvT being stale because of tanks just blows my mind. How the fuck do you arrive at this kind of conclusion? Best mirror matchup with the most viable openings and playstyles, and the most dynamic gameplay, and he says it's stale? Not PvP, with its endless turtling into mass colossus armies. Not ZvZ, with a line of roaches shooting at each other across the map. No, the problem definitely lies in TvT...
How can anyone read this and still believe HotS is going to improve the game? Well it seems easy for us here but designing a unit is a long process. They watched TvT of a couple months ago where everyone would go mech and no one would move because his siege line was right in front of you. If we are talking about past TvT, their statement is correct. So they go, "we should make a unit that is going to fix this problem". TThey come up with an idea, they tweak it and try to make in work. In the meanwhile players changed their playstyle and this problem is no longer relevant so what should they do ? Scrap it and start over ? HotS would never be released. As for zerg not being able to convert advantage into a win, some say the zerg needs his one base advantage to say on equal footing, if that is true then is it really an advantage ? I don't really care for the rationale behind their change, as long as their unit aren't completly boring or useless. When I look at the units they decided to add, I picture to myself what they do and how they will affect the current playstyle. In the end, if they do something good, for the wrong reasons, but it still ends up working and bring new ways to play the game to SC2, should we really care about the why ? I understand the why is what's keeping them from doing completely retarded stuff, but for now, they didn't do completely retarded stuff. The only obsolete unit they have presented is the Warhound in my opinion, and lots of people seem to agree that this unit has no place in the game. EDIT : Yeah the warhound part seems a little confusing, I just wanted to say with this example that I understand the validity of your point and even agree with it to a small extent. Blizzard needs to learn that you can't fucking micro-balance an RTS. You can't take every single metagame trend and respond to it with a balance patch. That's how we have such a diluted game now; so many strategies have been killed or nerfed in the past year or more because people instantly bitched the moment they came out and Blizzard didn't give the community a serious amount of time to actually react. Make an expansion to add content; continue the campaign, add to a race where it is severely lacking, but don't try to fix metagame trends by releasing an entire expansion.
This.
Btw: Have you ever tought about what people would say nowadays about an addon like Broodwar?
Protoss --> Gets permanently invulnerable high damage unit from an allready existing building (whiteout giving Terran any new/better detection methods than Scan/Vessel/Turret). + Corsairs which make Mutas just look Terrible ^^.
Zerg --> Gets a high range Unit that attacks when burrowed for 20 damage in a line. Whiteout giving any race any better detection than before (+making Ultras tough as nails and fast as Zerglings  ).
Terran --> Gets cheap Medic that heals Marines faster than most units can damage it and Gholiats just got infinite range ...
I can't imagine the shitstorm changes like this would cause nowadays. Judging based on this a range 22 Tempest does not sound too unlikely (but still stupid ).
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Reading some of the comments in this thread makes me actualy wonder why you guys play this game?
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On July 11 2012 00:43 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2012 00:34 Stratos_speAr wrote:On July 10 2012 23:14 SpiZe wrote:On July 10 2012 20:54 Toadvine wrote:
I should stop reading these interviews, the nonsense oozing out of them just makes me depressed. Or maybe I should keep reading, so my decision not to buy HotS is reinforced.
I mean, do you really look at how the game is now, and decide "Zerg should be able to just kill the opponent after getting ahead."? Not being able to instantly convert an advantage (which they get by default) into a win is the only thing keeping them from winning every game where they don't die to an all-in. It's difficult enough for both Terran and Protoss to defend various 3 base attacks from Zerg, right now.
And the comment about TvT being stale because of tanks just blows my mind. How the fuck do you arrive at this kind of conclusion? Best mirror matchup with the most viable openings and playstyles, and the most dynamic gameplay, and he says it's stale? Not PvP, with its endless turtling into mass colossus armies. Not ZvZ, with a line of roaches shooting at each other across the map. No, the problem definitely lies in TvT...
How can anyone read this and still believe HotS is going to improve the game? Well it seems easy for us here but designing a unit is a long process. They watched TvT of a couple months ago where everyone would go mech and no one would move because his siege line was right in front of you. If we are talking about past TvT, their statement is correct. So they go, "we should make a unit that is going to fix this problem". TThey come up with an idea, they tweak it and try to make in work. In the meanwhile players changed their playstyle and this problem is no longer relevant so what should they do ? Scrap it and start over ? HotS would never be released. As for zerg not being able to convert advantage into a win, some say the zerg needs his one base advantage to say on equal footing, if that is true then is it really an advantage ? I don't really care for the rationale behind their change, as long as their unit aren't completly boring or useless. When I look at the units they decided to add, I picture to myself what they do and how they will affect the current playstyle. In the end, if they do something good, for the wrong reasons, but it still ends up working and bring new ways to play the game to SC2, should we really care about the why ? I understand the why is what's keeping them from doing completely retarded stuff, but for now, they didn't do completely retarded stuff. The only obsolete unit they have presented is the Warhound in my opinion, and lots of people seem to agree that this unit has no place in the game. EDIT : Yeah the warhound part seems a little confusing, I just wanted to say with this example that I understand the validity of your point and even agree with it to a small extent. Blizzard needs to learn that you can't fucking micro-balance an RTS. You can't take every single metagame trend and respond to it with a balance patch. That's how we have such a diluted game now; so many strategies have been killed or nerfed in the past year or more because people instantly bitched the moment they came out and Blizzard didn't give the community a serious amount of time to actually react. Make an expansion to add content; continue the campaign, add to a race where it is severely lacking, but don't try to fix metagame trends by releasing an entire expansion. This. Btw: Have you ever tought about what people would say nowadays about an addon like Broodwar? Protoss --> Gets permanently invulnerable high damage unit from an allready existing building (whiteout giving Terran any new/better detection methods than Scan/Vessel/Turret). + Corsairs which make Mutas just look Terrible ^^. Zerg --> Gets a high range Unit that attacks when burrowed for 20 damage in a line. Whiteout giving any race any better detection than before (+making Ultras tough as nails and fast as Zerglings ). Terran --> Gets cheap Medic that heals Marines faster than most units can damage it and Gholiats just got infinite range ... I can't imagine the shitstorm changes like this would cause nowadays. Judging based on this a range 22 Tempest does not sound too unlikely (but still stupid ).
StarCraft was designed with BW units in mind. WoL was not.
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On July 10 2012 23:31 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 22:24 Jimmy Raynor wrote:
In almost every standard game I watch, zergs have advantage in supply and workers during the mid game. It doesn't make sense to give them a way to make that advantage into an almost guaranteed win Supplycount (especially thanks to ridiculous 2 food roaches which just was a cop out instead of real balancing) does not matter. Cost effectivnes of the units does (this is were the roach was way to good and therefore had to become a 2 supply unit with BIG hardcounters that just maul it (Immortal/Marauder)... Funny looking supplycounts whiteout any meaning are the result). One of the essential problems with SC2 is the instant remaxing/reinforcing Z/P can do: Warpgates and spawn Larva (or the amount of Larva a Hatch can save) are a problem because (near) instant remaxing is more important than actually having a bigger army at the beginning of an engagement. Simplification: 40 Probes / 160 Army vs 70 Probes / 130 Army. 160 Army will win the initial battle but the superior economy of 70 probes will allow way more reinforcements and therefore the bigger army will slowly shrink until the initial armyadvantage is gone and you are at a total disadvantage. You see this mostly happen in ZvP where P (or Z) can win a fight just to get mauled by the next round of reinforcements because your left over's lacked the punch to pull thru (the story of nearly every failed Roach/Ling-Bust or Protoss 2 base all-in)... If a SC/BW battle ended really close, both sides needed a bit of time to reinforce, there was no instant 20-40 supply warp-in right before your base or another 80 supply reinforcement streaming from the Zerg base (at least not unless the Zerg had a truly glorious economy and built tons of hatcheries to get that many larva). Fast "remaxes" were possible but not "normal". Whoever thought removing build/reinforce-time (warp gate) or production restrictions (spawn larva) was a good idea was a true moron. It's actually kinda ridiculous how overpowered Terran units have to be to fight against "this" and still maintain a chance to win ^^.
Great point. It almost seems like Blizzard is basing all their decisions on watching SC:BW instead of SC2. That is the only reason why david kim still thinks tanks are a threat and yet more units are needed to break a seige line.
More seriously they do need to tone done warp gates and spawn larva. One easy way is for spawn larva to give only 2 larvas. Also warpgates should have a much longer cooldown i.e. protoss should be able to produce out of pure gateways faster. This means that warpgate based reinforcements will quickly run out of steam due to the time needed to get the next round of warpins. Then it would be a strategic choice to use warpgates. If they do this the game will be easier to balance.
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On July 11 2012 00:45 freerolll wrote:
Reading some of the comments in this thread makes me actualy wonder why you guys play this game?
Because we like it ? SC2 is probably the best RTS released in the past 10 years but that doesn't mean that it cannot be improved upon.
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On July 10 2012 23:29 Buff345 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 22:34 Toadvine wrote:On July 10 2012 22:06 Bahamuth wrote:
@Toadvine
I think you're misinterpreting. Browder says:
'TvT matches can get a little stale.' (From the interview)
He's right. He's not saying it happens every game. He's not denying TvT in general is in a bad place. He's only saying TvT does sometimes get stale. I agree with him.
I don't know why you would base your opinion of HotS on an interview from a single person. You realise he's not the only one developing this game right? In fact, neither you nor anyone here has any clue of how competent their development team is. You can interpret and say whatever you like, but it's based on absolutely nothing. You're absolutely right man, an interview by the lead designer of a game, wherein he explains his rationale about the stuff they're changing in an expansion, is absolutely nothing. Can't base opinions on anything he says. I should just buy the game, and then listen to people like you tell me to wait for LotV before judging it. Seriously, what can I base my opinion on, in your view? And for the TvT thing, it gets "stale" a lot less than basically every other matchup in the game, so why single it out? It's like he said he thought it was too easy to expand in PvP. To be fair, they are adding the mothership core to change PvP too. iirc, there was an interview from a guy working for giantbomb or some other gaming site. I searched for it but couldnt find it. They said PvP sucks so they want to make it better as well. The mothership core will add easier defense for an expansion, I guess. Hopefully it will open up more options for PvP as a whole. As for ZvZ, heres an interview about it. I didnt read the whole thing, but from the excerpt IdrA, who knows more about it than you and me combined probably, thinks that ZvZ is too dynamic. But he says that once people get better at it, it will be ok. Nothing needs to be patched for it. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=350102 I think ZvZ midgame will probably be all over the place anyways in HotS. If I had to guess though, lategame ZvZ will probably be Infestor / Viper micro wars with Ultras / Hydra.
The problem with PvP nowadays isn't the inability to expand, you see players expanding all the time. The problem is that past the early game, Colossi dominate everything, and nothing in HotS appears to affect this dynamic. So, safer expansions will just lead to more boring Colossus vs Colossus games. Of course, that unit will never be changed, because Dustin Browder is busy nerfing Tanks to the ground.
I actually agree about ZvZ, recently it's become much more interesting and varied. Still, it's not as good as TvT. Hell, after the Queen buff made TvZ awful, TvT might well be the best matchup in the game in terms of spectator value. And Dustin Browder wants to change it, because in his opinion, Tanks make for boring games. I just don't get it. It's like he wants SC2 to fail as an esport.
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I don't get how no one thinks carriers have a use in this game. It does, its a latelategame mech counter. But the obvious thing is, no one goes mech vs toss anymore. If they aim to improve mech vs toss in hots, then the carrier will automatically gain a use without any changes to it (altough if they could change it to be microable that would be fantastic).
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On July 10 2012 11:56 KonohaFlash wrote:
Carrier
- A lot of people still want it in the game, but he hasn't seen anyone come up with a good arguement for it, besides it being cool and iconic.
I really don't understand this line of thought. He has to remove something because.... it is uselss and iconic? Why the hell doesn't he just remove repeaers while he is at it. If he thinks he can make other pathways more viable in certain matchup why doesn't he do the same for carriers.
Hearing the team talk say "don't wuss out" over removing a fkn unit makes me think they just has a vendetta against BW. Probably feels overshadowed by it...
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Guys, Browder was lead designer for C&C RA 2 and Generals - really awesome e-sports games ... not.
How could anyone expect that he/guys working for him are willing/able to balance a game like sc2 ...
About the removing of the carrier, Browder should remove himself and think about the terrible terrible damage he did to starcraft.
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Considering there are sooo freaking many gues on TL that know how to make a perfect RTS, one wonders why we still do not have one, and all we can do is to shit at blizzards obviously unsuccesfull and dumb sequell of still perfectly alive and very popular RTS.
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On July 11 2012 02:20 Earendel wrote:
Guys, Browder was lead designer for C&C RA 2 and Generals - really awesome e-sports games ... not.
How could anyone expect that he/guys working for him are willing/able to balance a game like sc2 ...
About the removing of the carrier, Browder should remove himself and think about the terrible terrible damage he did to starcraft.
Dude, just sayin', generals was one of the better c&cs of the EA era, expecially multiplayer.
Imagine what would've happened if blizzard had hired the C&C 4 guy....
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they are taking sc2 too far away from BW
they will realize this in the beta and likely change almost everything
zerg isnt SUPPOSED to be able to push a midgame advantage into a powerful swift victory IF the enemy is defending properly
ZvT is SUPPOSED to be like that. if T gets 3 bases and some sieged tanks, the zerg is SUPPOSED to just take the entire map and tech to tier3 to crush the terran instead of just winning outright in the midgame. Thats how the matchup was in BW too. And this concept is supposed to and does give the terran a fighting chance because in the process he likely hits 200food and gets the option to utilize his maxed army to the best of his ability to hopefully damage the zerg hard enough to win
ZvT is SUPPOSED to be like that
PvZ is SUPPOSED to be like that
thats what makes it fun. browder saying he wants to give zergs the ability to push easier to win off midgame advantages is just stupid its like saying they want to destroy central concepts of PvZ and TvZ
TvT is SUPPOSED to be extremely methodical tank based line battles. It was that in BW and its supposed to be that way! saying they want to change it just means they seriously are losing touch with the game
i really believe sc2 was so successful because even though blizzard changed alot of it from bw, it still had many similarities to BW.
I believe the further away you take sc2 from bw, the worse it gets. I think MBS and smartcasting and max unit selection were good for the game but my point here is that the styles of the matchup seem to highly resemble BW and i think thats a reason its so entertaining
the more you try to destroy the styles of the matchups and take it away from looking like BW the worse the game will get. if they release hots like its looking it will be, then WoL will probably remain the most entertaining and main tournament version
however, im confident in the HOTS beta people will realize exactly what im talking about, they will realize how much the game sucks, and im sure blizzard will definitely change almost everything come release
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shows how much they know about the game when in MLG they were saying stuff like "we wanted to add something that gives terran players a way to combat and break those tank lines in TvT. give more variety"
WHY?? WHY???? tvt is supposed to be long drawn out tank wars. it is exciting FOR VIEWERS and probably the most entertaining matchup after ruining TvZ
your not supposed to destroy core conepts in a matchup maybe add small nice dazzling things that dont effect things too drastically
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Thing is, TvT isn't normally drawn out tank wars in SC2. Marine/Tank TvT is very dynamic, with multiple groups of units moving around, siege lines being established and broken at various positions, drops, and in general a lot of action all over the map. Tank wars with an air transition only really happen when it's mech vs mech, on specific maps that are easy to split. Crossfire, for instance, was infamous for its drawn out TvTs. But really, this does not happen that often.
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On July 11 2012 03:22 Toadvine wrote:
Thing is, TvT isn't normally drawn out tank wars in SC2. Marine/Tank TvT is very dynamic, with multiple groups of units moving around, siege lines being established and broken at various positions, drops, and in general a lot of action all over the map. Tank wars with an air transition only really happen when it's mech vs mech, on specific maps that are easy to split. Crossfire, for instance, was infamous for its drawn out TvTs. But really, this does not happen that often.
thats what i meant dude im talking about marine/tank the most dynamic fun matchup we have and they wanna give more options to break tankline lol... please its fine the way it is
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They need to remove Dustin Browder from the SC2 team. If they plan to have this game last beyond 2 years after the final release. I watching proleague yesterday on Sayle's stream and watching how badly  EffOrt lost due to just making tons of banelings. If EffOrt had a lurker the game would have looked vastly more different.
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TvT is the only MU that feels like your an army general... For me at least >_>
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On July 11 2012 03:55 Genie1 wrote:They need to remove Dustin Browder from the SC2 team. If they plan to have this game last beyond 2 years after the final release. I watching proleague yesterday on Sayle's stream and watching how badly EffOrt lost due to just making tons of banelings. If EffOrt had a lurker the game would have looked vastly more different.
He lost with 1,5k gas in the bank, having never made an infestation pit in a 20 minute game, after mining off four bases for a significant period of time. You can blame a lot on Dustin Browder, but this particular failure is all on Effort.
And interestingly enough, the game itself was pretty good, and a lot of fun to watch.
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On July 11 2012 04:00 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2012 03:55 Genie1 wrote:They need to remove Dustin Browder from the SC2 team. If they plan to have this game last beyond 2 years after the final release. I watching proleague yesterday on Sayle's stream and watching how badly EffOrt lost due to just making tons of banelings. If EffOrt had a lurker the game would have looked vastly more different. He lost with 1,5k gas in the bank, having never made an infestation pit in a 20 minute game, after mining off four bases for a significant period of time. You can blame a lot on Dustin Browder, but this particular failure is all on Effort. And interestingly enough, the game itself was pretty good, and a lot of fun to watch.
He kept on making banelings though so never having the money to actually afford any tech structures. The unit is badly designed and very poor counter to use against marines. A bad unit should not stay in the game and should be replaced by a unit that can actually be effective against units.
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I see so much enthusiasm, ideas and passion, however the majority of it seems to be lying with the community and not with the people making the game
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EPT
