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On October 24 2010 23:39 Koh wrote:
So you've decided it's going to be bad before it's actually made? I really liked the Wings of Liberty campaign story, it's about space marines fighting aliens with a sub plot about a mystic religion based on cool lasers and crystals. I wasn't expecting Thomas Hardy.
This person here is right, give him/her a medal.
Seriously...
I just saw Bladerunner, started Planescape Torment, and am getting near the end of Farscape. I can honestly say that even Blizzards greatest fiction is solid waste excretion compared to these three. And yet I'm still a avid SC fan boy.
It was a fun interactive movie and game. I got my monies worth.
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I like that they haven't actually finished the story (or they did, and are changing it), which means the community feedback from the downsides of the first story are having an effect.
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Why would the story be any better if they wrote it before they started on the rest of the game?
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On October 24 2010 23:22 Theston wrote:
Of course they don't.
Do you think J.K. Rowling knew how her seventh book ended when she wrote the first?
Pretty sure she had the final chapters of The Deathly Hallows written before Harry Potter was big.
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On October 24 2010 23:21 MrLonely wrote:
Legitimate storymaking technique. Stephen King doesn't know how his stories will end either, and I consider him a pretty good writer.
That's probably why most of Steven Kings endings are crap.
The best television series are developed by story-boarding the whole season. They plan the whole story arch, then go back and write individual episodes. Look at HBO's Rome, Showtime's Dexter, and The first season of Heroes (after 1st season they made it up as they went along).
I sincerely hope that they do this with the expansions before they put too much effort into production, otherwise the third expo will have a really contrived story-line.
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On October 24 2010 23:32 HardcoreBilly wrote:J.R.R. Tolkien made up Lord of the Rings as he wrote. + Show Spoiler +It's too bad Blizzard's story writer decided to kill Tychus off. Totally unnecessary.
Although it's true that he more or less made it up as he wrote, Tolkien didn't publish Fellowship and then start writing the story for Two Towers: all three volumes were written in one go, and so changes could be made to earlier parts if necessary in order to make the whole thing flow together.
Wings of Liberty has already been released and cannot easily be changed, so the other two expansions should absolutely already have basic plot lines set in stone. Otherwise you end up with a story that has no flow and contradicts itself.
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There's nothing wrong with that, per se. About half of the authors in the world are what's called discovery writers; that is to say they don't know the ending before they start writing it and they sort of let the characters do as they will. So it's not out of the question for that to happen with a video game, and in fact makes more sense as you can tailor it to your gameplay better (missions, arcs, etc.)
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Honestly, I thought the hybrids were silly, but I didn't dislike the story too terribly. I mean, a lot of it made sense and it had good twists. I also like how they allowed you to pick how Jim's story would go in the course of progressing through the 'main' story. I really don't know how they are going to continue it with HotS.
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On October 25 2010 00:58 NexRex wrote:
Most people in the creative fields "know" how a story might end, but they also have no clue at the same time. The sometimes have to let the story take them there and see what happens. Then they go back and make sure everything flows well. This is no different in modern video games and their stories.
Glad I read through the thread before posting, I was pretty much going to say this.  I agree, I think you're reading a little too much into the quote. The response is in answer to whether the story is FULLY written out. He's not saying they have no idea where they are going with it, just that nothing is set in stone.
I actually rant quite a bit about what I feel is a trend lately in storytelling to just make up crap as you go along, and I despise it. BUT, that is only because of the concurrent trend of having constant cliffhangers, ambiguous foreshadowing, etc. If you're going to do a cliffhanger, or present some mystery and give hints about possible answers, then you'd damn well better be doing so with a clear plan, yes. JJ Abrams (TV version), I'm looking at you!
Mostly this is just because this kind of storytelling works really well in television, where you need to hook people from one episode/season to the next, and also have nowhere near complete control of the story since actors can leave/die, the duration of the show is uncertain, etc. But it's terrible storytelling, and I hate when it starts to pervade other mediums. However, I don't really think SC2 is a case of that happening. They don't drop any "oooooo!" moments on us where we're supposed to guess about some sekret hidden meaning. It's just a fun story.
Why would the story be any better if they wrote it before they started on the rest of the game?
In this case I agree with you, but in general a story can be horribly damaged by a later chapter, if that later chapter reveals that the earlier stuff was just vacuous nonsense. If an early chapter of a story presents a cool mystery and hints for the reader/audience to ponder, and later it becomes obvious that there was nothing really being hinted at at all, that information means that the earlier story actually sucked, even if you didn't realize it at the time. Foreshadowing and mystery elements in a story actually make that story expand outside the mere text, which is totally awesome if the extra stuff is awesome. However, if that extra stuff is just a bunch of bullshit, it can do terrible, terrible damage to the story.
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On October 25 2010 02:08 Ichabod wrote:
I like that they haven't actually finished the story (or they did, and are changing it), which means the community feedback from the downsides of the first story are having an effect.
It doesn't work like that. The artist tells whatever story they feel like, or whatever some massive demograph survey dictates. The people play it, the ones that like it like it, and the ones that don't rush to the forums to whine about it (but most of them say nothing).
Afraid that forum topic aren't going to change anything major, especially not the kind of topics which involve people thinking that they know the characters and the themes of SCI and BW better than the people who actually wrote them. No writer pays attention to those, respectable or otherwise.
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The SC2 campaign is basically a word for word description of Narm. So many horribad, facepalm inducing moments.
"we'll take our people to HAVEN, its a fertile planet that nobody wants to go to cause its near the protoss! :D"
"well, maybe you should make sure your people aren't infected"
"NO THATS IMPOSSIBLE I AM OFFENDED AT THE THOUGHT"
"er...ok"
:one mission latter:
"you know that haven planet, we can't seem to call them"
"UNEXPECTED"
I esp. like how if you side with the protoss in that mission, you can easily save more people than you would fighting the protoss, but everyone acts like you did some big bad thing and the doctor goes all insane. Uh, what? Even more perplexing, siding with the colonists seems to delete the virus, as they all live happily ever after (minus the burninated colonists to le mothership) :psyduck:
"lets a-move char!"
"oh god this is ending terribly! Just like last time!"
"lets take our helmets off on char!"
"yes, i too can breathe poisonous atmospheres!"
Don't even get me started on how the real "tactical genius" of the show is the adjutant, which does everything for raynor. Or how raynor is a bipolar basket case who goes crazy anytime anyone mentions kerrigan. Basically, if there are characters talking in a cutscene, they are saying incredibly retarded, non-genre savy things. SC2's writing is so bad I can't help but feel the entire singleplayer campaign is a meta-troll on the community. Carrying a naked kerrigan out naked, on a volcanic, poisonous atmospheric planet? really?
Of course, the worst of all if Findlay. What kind of a xanatos gambit is that? I'll release this dangerous criminal, so he can get close to Raynor, rebel against me, seize all these previously unknown alien artifacts, just so that when the zerg attacks, they can team up with my disloyal son, take my fleet, attack char, de-infest kerrigan, and THEN kill her. Meanwhile, I will be trying to kill Findlay and Raynor, for they are criminals. Uh... WAT?
*sigh*
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On October 25 2010 01:04 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +Calling it here. Not dead.
If you listened to the RTS tournament stage when they had the voice actors out, the guy who does Tychus said at the end "I look forward to all of you seeing Tychus in Hots" - I think he slipped because a few looked awkwardly at him.
Even Metzen said when asked if Tychus was really dead..."Does anyone really ever die in our games?" Single player screen specifically says that Tychus is dead. If he's alive, it's a straight up retcon.
My guess is that that's Blizzard's pre-teen-friendly way of letting you know you're supposed to think Tychus is dead.
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On October 25 2010 02:26 Yotta wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 01:04 Stratos_speAr wrote:Calling it here. Not dead.
If you listened to the RTS tournament stage when they had the voice actors out, the guy who does Tychus said at the end "I look forward to all of you seeing Tychus in Hots" - I think he slipped because a few looked awkwardly at him.
Even Metzen said when asked if Tychus was really dead..."Does anyone really ever die in our games?" Single player screen specifically says that Tychus is dead. If he's alive, it's a straight up retcon. My guess is that that's Blizzard's pre-teen-friendly way of letting you know you're supposed to think Tychus is dead. I believe they said at Blizzcon that he was dead, officially.
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On October 25 2010 02:23 Billy_ wrote:
It doesn't work like that. The artist tells whatever story they feel like, or whatever some massive demograph survey dictates. The people play it, the ones that like it like it, and the ones that don't rush to the forums to whine about it (but most of them say nothing).
Afraid that forum topic aren't going to change anything major, especially not the kind of topics which involve people thinking that they know the characters and the themes of SCI and BW better than the people who actually wrote them. No writer pays attention to those, respectable or otherwise.
While I agree that random, angry complaint threads aren't likely to change anything, threads that express excitement about parts of the story the author didn't realize would be so significant can very well have an effect. Disappointment about some particular element of the storytelling from someone who is otherwise totally involved with the story and author is also quite possibly something that would influence them. But yeah, someone who just hates it outright isn't really part of the process I don't think.
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On October 25 2010 02:27 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 02:26 Yotta wrote:On October 25 2010 01:04 Stratos_speAr wrote:Calling it here. Not dead.
If you listened to the RTS tournament stage when they had the voice actors out, the guy who does Tychus said at the end "I look forward to all of you seeing Tychus in Hots" - I think he slipped because a few looked awkwardly at him.
Even Metzen said when asked if Tychus was really dead..."Does anyone really ever die in our games?" Single player screen specifically says that Tychus is dead. If he's alive, it's a straight up retcon. My guess is that that's Blizzard's pre-teen-friendly way of letting you know you're supposed to think Tychus is dead. I believe they said at Blizzcon that he was dead, officially.
They said basically the opposite. I typed what was said on the second page of this thread
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On October 25 2010 02:28 Pfeff wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 02:27 MythicalMage wrote:On October 25 2010 02:26 Yotta wrote:On October 25 2010 01:04 Stratos_speAr wrote:Calling it here. Not dead.
If you listened to the RTS tournament stage when they had the voice actors out, the guy who does Tychus said at the end "I look forward to all of you seeing Tychus in Hots" - I think he slipped because a few looked awkwardly at him.
Even Metzen said when asked if Tychus was really dead..."Does anyone really ever die in our games?" Single player screen specifically says that Tychus is dead. If he's alive, it's a straight up retcon. My guess is that that's Blizzard's pre-teen-friendly way of letting you know you're supposed to think Tychus is dead. I believe they said at Blizzcon that he was dead, officially. They said basically the opposite. I typed what was said on the second page of this thread
Ah, my mistake then. >.>
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The sign of good writing is an author who is sensitive to how their characters would react in the situations that unforld, and how they will mature as the story continues. It's when characters suddenly start acting 'out of character' that people feel cheated a bit, this is why the second series of Heroes was complete crap.
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On October 25 2010 02:23 MalVortex wrote:The SC2 campaign is basically a word for word description of Narm. So many horribad, facepalm inducing moments. "we'll take our people to HAVEN, its a fertile planet that nobody wants to go to cause its near the protoss! :D" "well, maybe you should make sure your people aren't infected" "NO THATS IMPOSSIBLE I AM OFFENDED AT THE THOUGHT" "er...ok" :one mission latter: "you know that haven planet, we can't seem to call them" "UNEXPECTED" I esp. like how if you side with the protoss in that mission, you can easily save more people than you would fighting the protoss, but everyone acts like you did some big bad thing and the doctor goes all insane. Uh, what? Even more perplexing, siding with the colonists seems to delete the virus, as they all live happily ever after (minus the burninated colonists to le mothership) :psyduck: "lets a-move char!" "oh god this is ending terribly! Just like last time!" "lets take our helmets off on char!" "yes, i too can breathe poisonous atmospheres!" Don't even get me started on how the real "tactical genius" of the show is the adjutant, which does everything for raynor. Or how raynor is a bipolar basket case who goes crazy anytime anyone mentions kerrigan. Basically, if there are characters talking in a cutscene, they are saying incredibly retarded, non-genre savy things. SC2's writing is so bad I can't help but feel the entire singleplayer campaign is a meta-troll on the community. Carrying a naked kerrigan out naked, on a volcanic, poisonous atmospheric planet? really?Of course, the worst of all if Findlay. What kind of a xanatos gambit is that? I'll release this dangerous criminal, so he can get close to Raynor, rebel against me, seize all these previously unknown alien artifacts, just so that when the zerg attacks, they can team up with my disloyal son, take my fleet, attack char, de-infest kerrigan, and THEN kill her. Meanwhile, I will be trying to kill Findlay and Raynor, for they are criminals. Uh... WAT? *sigh*
YESSSSSSSSSS
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On October 25 2010 02:01 TheMonkeyMon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 01:49 Deadlyhazard wrote:On October 24 2010 23:34 tacrats wrote:On October 24 2010 23:31 Mothxal wrote:On October 24 2010 23:25 tacrats wrote:On October 24 2010 23:21 MrLonely wrote:
Legitimate storymaking technique. Stephen King doesn't know how his stories will end either, and I consider him a pretty good writer. Stephen King is a good writer and can pull that off. If WoL was any indication (ex: magix saves kerrigan raynor carries her off into the sunset), blizz doesnt have good writers anymore. So the fact that they have no idea what they are doing is going to result in a terrible, terrible story. Just because you disliked the single-player, don't pretend the rest of the world agrees. Hardly any writers know how a story will end. In fact, knowing often makes for a worse story, since then the story can be somewhat artificial and drawn out, since the pacing might not be accounted for in the original idea. any self-respecting individual would agree sc2 SP sucked. User was warned for this post I agree. I love how they were hyping it to be the best SP campaign they've ever made (by far, as Rob Pardo said) and that it also had a deep story. This is what made me lose faith in Blizzard (including things they did in WoW), but I still like to follow the SC2 pro community. Well its not like the single-player gameplay was bad at least. Even if the story is godawful as I expect, I know the actual gameplay will be great. It was a massive, massive improvment over the "build up, destroy, repeat" tedium of SC1 and BW. Probably the best RTS campaign of all time if you judge on gameplay alone.
Actually I didn't like the gameplay. Most of it was constrained by some sort of timer or the usual build as much as you can to overcome your enemies, like SC1. I still feel WC3 is the pinnacle of SP RTS gameplay.
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So WoL's story was poorly planned and not well thought-out of.
What else is new?
To be fair, most authors make stuff up as they go. They may have a basic structure in mind, but that fluctuate over time.
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EPT
