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tofucake
Hyrule19178 Posts
On October 24 2010 23:12 tacrats wrote: At it's core we're trying to have some choice I don't trust it. I think that they know exactly what's going to happen! Okay, not really, but that typo really bugged me :< | ||
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ghostunit
61 Posts
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Railxp
Hong Kong1313 Posts
On October 30 2010 11:56 ghostunit wrote: so, if they don't know what they're doing I guess they're going for the default, which is "everyone let's team up and defend the magic temple from the evil XelNaga/Dark Voice and its hybrids" fuck i hate that POWER OF FRIENDSHIP GAIS BELIEVE IN URSELF!!!! :D:D:D bullshit. they are putting too much emphasis on the xel naga threat. It should not be a big enough threat to unify all three races to join forces. Rather, SC should maintain its dark political backstabbing history in broodwar, and explore more towards inter-race conflict. I would have liked to see kerrigan remain damned and forever infested, and have her repeat her predecessor's move of bringing in new blood from Terran or Protoss. only this time with more ambiguity of good/evil, and the pressure on raynor not the repeat history. zeratul needs to stop being the OH SHIT TOO LATE Prophet, and back to being a fucking badass tearing shit up in the name of peace. | ||
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hack41
21 Posts
The impression I got from the panellists is that they were quite uncomfortable during the entire session, and that they'd much rather not be there. It seemed to me like they were just a bit annoyed at having to answer questions from bothersome fans about stuff that the fans care much more about than they do. Just watch when some hardcore fans recite detailed background lore from secondary and tertiary sources, it's like the panellists are just thinking, "jeez, people actually give a crap about this stuff?" Anyway, here's what worried me most: I believe that at some point Metzen claimed that he would need at least three, better even nine full novels to properly tell the story of StarCraft (please correct me if that figure is wrong). But if that's the case, I really would have liked to know how much of those nine novels has been covered by Wings of Liberty! They kept saying that WoL has "barely scratched the surface", but if they have nine(!) novels' worth of story to go through, how can it be that the entire first third of the effort hardly scratches the surface?? Just when were they going to get into the meat of the nine novel thick story? On a related note, many people here have expressed that the WoL campaign left them less than satisfied as far as engaging narrative and rewarding conclusion (in which the preceding missions would create a pay-off for the invested player!) was concerned. What surprises me is that some people now claim that the BlizzCon Q&A session basically tells us that we were wrong to feel disappointed. It's a strange argument; we say, "hey, WoL is an incoherent mess that doesn't make sense and feels cheap and lazy". Then Metzen says, "no, no, it isn't cheap and lazy and it makes sense", and now some people here are all like "see, see, you were wrong, it was good after all". That's just a strange way of forming opinions about what you like and dislike -- but I'm sure that Metzen & co. are thrilled by the fact that they can just tell the fans that their stuff is great and fans will buy all their sequels and toys. | ||
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Thoreezhea1
United States532 Posts
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rezoacken
Canada2719 Posts
On a related note, many people here have expressed that the WoL campaign left them less than satisfied as far as engaging narrative and rewarding conclusion (in which the preceding missions would create a pay-off for the invested player!) was concerned. What surprises me is that some people now claim that the BlizzCon Q&A session basically tells us that we were wrong to feel disappointed. It's a strange argument; we say, "hey, WoL is an incoherent mess that doesn't make sense and feels cheap and lazy". Then Metzen says, "no, no, it isn't cheap and lazy and it makes sense", and now some people here are all like "see, see, you were wrong, it was good after all". That's just a strange way of forming opinions about what you like and dislike -- but I'm sure that Metzen & co. are thrilled by the fact that they can just tell the fans that their stuff is great and fans will buy all their sequels and toys. Yeah I too got this impression both in the blizzcon AND while actually playing the game. The narrative part felt really botched and there were too few cool moments, I feel the first 3 missions and last 3 are really good, and this to me is because it is linear so I really felt more engaged on the rebellion part and the invasion of Char. I don't even think the sub plots were terrible, it's just that there was no link and very little cool narative cutscenes in-between them. WoL would have been far better if the mission were in a linear sequence but with real links between each plots and give us a thrill and reason to engage into each one. That, and more cutscenes at the level of the final ones and CG movies and I'm happy. | ||
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megagoten
318 Posts
On November 03 2010 13:13 rezoacken wrote: Yeah I too got this impression both in the blizzcon AND while actually playing the game. The narrative part felt really botched and there were too few cool moments, I feel the first 3 missions and last 3 are really good, and this to me is because it is linear so I really felt more engaged on the rebellion part and the invasion of Char. I don't even think the sub plots were terrible, it's just that there was no link and very little cool narative cutscenes in-between them. WoL would have been far better if the mission were in a linear sequence but with real links between each plots and give us a thrill and reason to engage into each one. That, and more cutscenes at the level of the final ones and CG movies and I'm happy. i think you nailed it for me, the linearity is a key aspect of sc2 it's also present in sc and bw missions where we've felt like we were watching stuff unfold were the best ones, other good mission story-wise imo, include sending broadcast, getting the last relic, and of course, zeratul prophecy arc too much filler stuff that we can't seem to care about, including, train robbery, first few relic hunting (they are all for the sake of money as far as we knew), trashing bases with the odin, saving dr. narud (we couldn't care less about these chores) don't get me wrong, the missions are fun, just not engaging | ||
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
On October 30 2010 12:53 Railxp wrote: fuck i hate that POWER OF FRIENDSHIP GAIS BELIEVE IN URSELF!!!! :D:D:D bullshit. they are putting too much emphasis on the xel naga threat. It should not be a big enough threat to unify all three races to join forces. Rather, SC should maintain its dark political backstabbing history in broodwar, and explore more towards inter-race conflict. I would have liked to see kerrigan remain damned and forever infested, and have her repeat her predecessor's move of bringing in new blood from Terran or Protoss. only this time with more ambiguity of good/evil, and the pressure on raynor not the repeat history. zeratul needs to stop being the OH SHIT TOO LATE Prophet, and back to being a fucking badass tearing shit up in the name of peace. so true!!!we really dont need another war3 story in another blizzard game!! WoL is fine caused' i dont mind raynor the charcter haunted by some past(made him somehow a mature man to me) but kerrigan needs to be the cutthroat b*tch and zaratul needs to be the 'fucking badass tearing shit up in the name of peace.'!! | ||
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Billy_
461 Posts
On October 30 2010 12:53 Railxp wrote: fuck i hate that POWER OF FRIENDSHIP GAIS BELIEVE IN URSELF!!!! :D:D:D bullshit. they are putting too much emphasis on the xel naga threat. It should not be a big enough threat to unify all three races to join forces. Rather, SC should maintain its dark political backstabbing history in broodwar, and explore more towards inter-race conflict. I would have liked to see kerrigan remain damned and forever infested, and have her repeat her predecessor's move of bringing in new blood from Terran or Protoss. only this time with more ambiguity of good/evil, and the pressure on raynor not the repeat history. zeratul needs to stop being the OH SHIT TOO LATE Prophet, and back to being a fucking badass tearing shit up in the name of peace. There was a lot of emphasis on the UED too, but the story wasn't about them, it was about Kerrigan. The UED were merely an obstacle to force alliances. Not all that different from the burning legion, but Broodwar had a distinctively different style than WCIII. Another fun fact - there were at least 3 alliances in the SC series before SCII. There was also a lot of emphasis on the Zerg during WoL, but they too took a back seat to the main plot of the rebellion which is what most of the missions were about. Everything on Mar Sara, all the Tosh, Matt, and Tychus missions were about building the rebellion into an army and getting dirt on Arcturus. No dount that Valarians good PR from the Char missions as well as the broadcast on Korhal will end up ruining Arcturus which is what Jim had always wanted in the first place. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On October 25 2010 17:01 Newbistic wrote: ORLY?The weakest link in the WoL storyline was probably when Kerrigan was revealed to no longer be the queen bitch of the universe. May be the defested Kerrigan is as badass as the Queen of Blades? Do we know yet? | ||
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Krigwin
1130 Posts
On October 27 2010 14:41 strongwind wrote: Krigwin, I think I'll give Firefly a try. I've heard good things about it, but so far I haven't gotten around to watching it. I saw Serenity already (didn't realize there was a TV series prequel) and wasn't too impressed, but I hear Firefly is better. Thanks for reminding me! The series is definitely one of the best to have come on television in recent years and probably the most triumphant example of a space western. On November 03 2010 21:51 Billy_ wrote: If I didn't know any better I'd have thought that the original starcrafts were a work of Shakespeare, or Chris Avellone. Yes, I am comparing Planescape Torment to William. Fun fact - Broodwar is very nonsensical, inconsistent and has plot holes all over the place. I'm pretty sure that any sort of in depth objective analysis can back that up. Oh hey man. Welcome back! Funny thing about that, I was just talking about doing an in-depth objective analysis. By the way, "the original sucked too" is not a valid defense for the sequel sucking. | ||
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Billy_
461 Posts
And you don't get much more in depth than this guy http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7280 He's about 1/2 way through the SC series. One of the least biased critiques that I have read, and a pretty good attempt at analysis. I disagree with some of his views, but I do like that they are understandable opinions backed by solid reasoning and logic. Solid critiques of anything is normally buried under pages of "It's shit", so a solid, in depth perspective would be nice. | ||
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ghostunit
61 Posts
WoL was an improvement over BW??? What? Utter nonsense. By the way, are you a Blizzard plant or something? | ||
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Billy_
461 Posts
No, I am not a Blizzard plant. An objective discussion would require us to discuss by typing up essays, and my enthusiasm for SC has kind of worn out too much for me to care. | ||
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DocSnyder
Germany137 Posts
On November 04 2010 02:11 Billy_ wrote: Well BW kind of decided to not develop the plot or that characters which were put forward in the original and WoL did. Objectively, I'd say that it's off to a good start. No, I am not going to give a detailed reason why, that is what I've shared the SC legacy link for. Of course it's still early days yet, and WoL didn't actually do a lot other than to prepare the Zerg and Protoss campagins for whatever direction that Blizzard may have in mind. I've said it before, but I'm witholding any judgement on Tassadar and the overmind because they weren't really characters in WoLs so there isn't a whole lot to say, is there? "But Blizzard ruined Tassadars sacrifice!"... yeah, maybe, but you have to make assumptions for that to be true, and we just don't know if Tassadar was aware that he would survive or not etc. No, I am not a Blizzard plant. An objective discussion would require us to discuss by typing up essays, and my enthusiasm for SC has kind of worn out too much for me to care. I can certainly agree with you on the whole "Lets wait and see,after the expansions come out"I can wait to see,whether or not Metzen was full of shit,or we were just plain ignorant. The whole mindless "WOL sucks" on this site is quite irrational and in contrast to most forums out there(that and none-complainers dont go on forums)People here just want to hate it.As far as im concerned,the only crime WoL is guilty of is the Incredibly corny "eye-rolling dialog(which is not exactly a WoL first) and its none-linear structure. Now without dissing anyone,id say people just didnt get what they wanted.Im kinda stuck in that boat myself,mainly because i wanted a multi-racial story experience.Even after 30 missions,i kept expecting to switch to zerg.But that never happened and so my 12 years of expectations went down the drain. Gimme a 1000 terran mission,ill still want my zerg and toss,because that was the highlight of the originals. WoL was just too human(well duh) and too personal(focusing on Raynor alone,rather than on humanity).And that for me was both its strongest and weakest point.The so called "side missions"were actually the highlights for me(apart from the beginning and ending )Mostly they placed Raynor in direct conflict to 3 very different personalities to show his own,witch you could actually influence yourself.Horner,Tosh,Findley and the Doc had some very good moments,but they weren't Kerrigan or Mengst or Artanis.So the fanboy response was hardly surprising."Long live BW and its 100 plot holes". Thats said Blizzcon was actually encouraging and in 4-6 years time,ill either hate or love SC2.Probably hate 12+6.Are you kidding,Blizzard!!!!!!!!! | ||
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TurtlePerson2
United States218 Posts
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hack41
21 Posts
On November 04 2010 00:45 Krigwin wrote: I'm actually thinking of doing some kind of Plinkett-style review series on Youtube to thoroughly explain why exactly the game could be called bad. Hey, join the queue ;-) On November 03 2010 21:51 Billy_ wrote: Fun fact - Broodwar is very nonsensical, inconsistent and has plot holes all over the place. I'm pretty sure that any sort of in depth objective analysis can back that up. But you're missing the entire point of the complaints: Wings of Liberty was badly narrated, unengaging, unrewarding and unimaginative. StarCraft and Broodwar were not. Sure, SC/BW was full of ridiculous, made-up stuff: Humans in space. Aliens. Psychics. Magic crystals. Tentacle girls. Mutalisks flapping wings in space. But despite all that, it was very well told. Everything you did as the player was building up to the conclusion. Every campaign had a great dramatic arc with a good pay-off at the end. (Yes, every campaign -- if I stopped you after playing Episode I, or II, or IV, and asked you how the game was, chances are you would say, "Great, give me more!". You would not say, "meh, I don't know, nothing is really clear, but please do give me more since I'm sure it'll all get better later.") The pacing was great. The perspective of the player as an executive subordinate that follows important people around was a great way of introducing characters. (Following Jim around lets you get to know him slowly and gives him room for credible mystery. On the other hand, actually being Jim just makes you disappointed by what a boring creep he is.) In short, perhaps neither SC1 nor BW nor WoL are particularly original and deep, but the execution of SC/BW made those games such a great and immersive experience. By contrast, the execution of WoL is incoherent, meandering, inconsequential and lifeless, and it leaves you wondering at the end where all your time went. You didn't spend 20 missions working towards the conclusion; rather, you spent 20 missions dicking around and then got handed the conclusion. Pardon the rant, I shall stop now. You can check my original post for a somewhat more detailed argument. | ||
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Krigwin
1130 Posts
On November 04 2010 05:56 hack41 wrote: Hey, join the queue ;-) Yeah, I watched all of those a while ago. He makes some pretty good points and comparisons (that I'll shamelessly steal for my own review should I make one), but it's kind of drowned out by the lame jokes and flood of memes. With Plinkett the analysis was at the forefront while most of the time you didn't even notice the jokes (except for all the deadpan psycho stuff). Reviews should be analytical first, entertaining second. Now, I don't have a problem with making the logical analysis but making the review entertaining like the Plinkett reviews while not going overboard and interrupting the flow of the review is the definite hard part. Plus his voice was really annoying. This is pretty unfair since even he knows it and it's a minor flaw, but that kind of cuts the flow of the videos. | ||
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hack41
21 Posts
On November 04 2010 06:16 Krigwin wrote: Yeah, I watched all of those a while ago. He makes some pretty good points and comparisons (that I'll shamelessly steal for my own review should I make one), but it's kind of drowned out by the lame jokes and flood of memes. With Plinkett the analysis was at the forefront while most of the time you didn't even notice the jokes (except for all the deadpan psycho stuff). Reviews should be analytical first, entertaining second. Now, I don't have a problem with making the logical analysis but making the review entertaining like the Plinkett reviews while not going overboard and interrupting the flow of the review is the definite hard part. Plus his voice was really annoying. This is pretty unfair since even he knows it and it's a minor flaw, but that kind of cuts the flow of the videos. Well, yeah... certainly at the first viewing all I was thinking was, "what a rip-off". But he does make good points, and he sort of finds his style over time. The fundamental problem is that Plinkett has already done it, so it'll always just be an imitation. The StarCraft guy (what's his name actually?) does shout too much for my taste -- one of Plinkett's strengths is that he never loses his composure and pleasant, unthreatening and not-at-all-in-your-face tone. He never goes on to preach or indulge or get worked up (select situations of comedic effect notwithstanding), which is a rare quality. And you're right, Plinkett's focus is on analysis, with the background serving strictly as background, not its own sake. That said, I do really like the StarCraft reviews (give them a second viewing, perhaps you'll see them in a better light), as there are really many very compelling points. They're made by a guy you preordered the Collector's Edition and put a video on YouTube of himself receiving the package, after all! :-) The stuff about past lore panels, about how much or how little Blizzard had worked out the story so late in development, the fact that a former EA guy is lead designer, all those were pretty novel revelations to me... Anyway, just write down what you have, look at it, and then write it again, and then again, and repeat until you like it -- don't force the humour, but I'm sure it'll come with patience and practice :-) | ||
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strongwind
United States862 Posts
Oh, and after watching Firefly, I was...well, a bit underwhelmed. Maybe it was 'cause I'm just not a fan of the whole cowboy lingo (it just doesn't sound cool to me) or the fact that they kept butchering chinese phrases left and right. I understand why they were doing it, but man, every time a chinese phrase was uttered it completely took me out of it. They should've spent some time working on their tones  Interestingly though, after re-watching Serenity, I liked it a lot more the second time around. I guess there is more of an emotional investment now that I know the characters and the story a bit better. The season (series?) finale was pretty good too. But yeah, a bit underwhelming. Glad I finally got to watch it though! | ||
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