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 makin it up as they go. guess thats why WoL SP was ballsack.
http://pc.ign.com/articles/113/1130199p1.html
It seems that just as the next two chapters in the StarCraft II campaign, Heart of the Swarm and Legacy of the Void, are in development, so is the story. Those who finished the Wings of Liberty campaign (or spoiled it for themselves on YouTube) will likely remember the dramatic events that occurred just before the credits rolled. How that eventually plays out is still being worked on, which is yet another reason we don't yet have many details about Heart of the Swarm.
When asked about whether the story was fully written out regarding what happens and which characters live or die, Blizzard's Chris Sigaty said, "Not really, no...Even things we thought we knew…we're making pretty significant changes and still figuring things out."
Regarding the actual content and mechanics of Heart of the Swarm, Sigaty says that's also very much in flux, which is why a release date in 2011 is not likely. "We will be very hard pressed to bring it out next year. I don't have a date, but it's more ambitious, it's bigger than what Warcraft: The Frozen Throne was to Reign of Chaos and I don't anticipate it being done in that one year time frame."
Sigaty did mention that the campaign structure will likely be similar to what players experienced in Wings of Liberty. "Tech purchases and the planetary mission screens don't really make as much sense with where we're going. We're going to change that up and make it more specific to the story we're telling there. At it's core we're trying to have some choice, have some different mechanics around those choices. Specifics I don't have."
It appears we can also expect some changes to the multiplayer component to come along with the new content. "As far as the multiplayer game goes, we'll definitely see changes across all three races. What those changes are…if I knew I couldn't tell you, but we don't know. We're going to continue to look at the game and see where the holes are and see what makes the best sense for the game...we're very, very early in the process for Heart of the Swarm."
So what would you like to see? More units? Big changes to existing ones? A cow level?
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I would like to see more hybrids, Wings on Liberty only touched on them so hopefully we get a lot more on them in Hears of the Swarm, maybe a new mini-race like those fish things in Frozen Throne? I hope so.
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Estonia4504 Posts
I foresee an increase in only situationally effective units and bullshit mechanics to create new content.
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Legitimate storymaking technique. Stephen King doesn't know how his stories will end either, and I consider him a pretty good writer.
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Of course they don't.
Do you think J.K. Rowling knew how her seventh book ended when she wrote the first?
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During the StarCraft II Story Q&A they made it pretty clear they already know how the story is going to be they just haven't defined everything. Also mentioning that after playing HoTS you'll understand a lot more about things from WoL.
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On October 24 2010 23:21 MrLonely wrote:
Legitimate storymaking technique. Stephen King doesn't know how his stories will end either, and I consider him a pretty good writer.
Stephen King is a good writer and can pull that off.
If WoL was any indication (ex: magix saves kerrigan raynor carries her off into the sunset), blizz doesnt have good writers anymore. So the fact that they have no idea what they are doing is going to result in a terrible, terrible story.
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On October 24 2010 23:25 tacrats wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 23:21 MrLonely wrote:
Legitimate storymaking technique. Stephen King doesn't know how his stories will end either, and I consider him a pretty good writer. Stephen King is a good writer and can pull that off. If WoL was any indication (ex: magix saves kerrigan raynor carries her off into the sunset), blizz doesnt have good writers anymore. So the fact that they have no idea what they are doing is going to result in a terrible, terrible story.
Might be true, but I think the story is terrible because the writers are terrible, not because they don't know how it will end. 
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On October 24 2010 23:25 tacrats wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 23:21 MrLonely wrote:
Legitimate storymaking technique. Stephen King doesn't know how his stories will end either, and I consider him a pretty good writer. Stephen King is a good writer and can pull that off. If WoL was any indication (ex: magix saves kerrigan raynor carries her off into the sunset), blizz doesnt have good writers anymore. So the fact that they have no idea what they are doing is going to result in a terrible, terrible story.
Just because you disliked the single-player, don't pretend the rest of the world agrees. Hardly any writers know how a story will end. In fact, knowing often makes for a worse story, since then the story can be somewhat artificial and drawn out, since the pacing might not be accounted for in the original idea.
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J.R.R. Tolkien made up Lord of the Rings as he wrote.
+ Show Spoiler +It's too bad Blizzard's story writer decided to kill Tychus off. Totally unnecessary.
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On October 24 2010 23:31 Mothxal wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 23:25 tacrats wrote:On October 24 2010 23:21 MrLonely wrote:
Legitimate storymaking technique. Stephen King doesn't know how his stories will end either, and I consider him a pretty good writer. Stephen King is a good writer and can pull that off. If WoL was any indication (ex: magix saves kerrigan raynor carries her off into the sunset), blizz doesnt have good writers anymore. So the fact that they have no idea what they are doing is going to result in a terrible, terrible story. Just because you disliked the single-player, don't pretend the rest of the world agrees. Hardly any writers know how a story will end. In fact, knowing often makes for a worse story, since then the story can be somewhat artificial and drawn out, since the pacing might not be accounted for in the original idea.
any self-respecting individual would agree sc2 SP sucked.
User was warned for this post
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Tolkien just stared writing and only after a couple of hundred pages he started to think about the story development.
And I was actually surprised by how much of the story Blizzard did write.
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On October 24 2010 23:34 tacrats wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 23:31 Mothxal wrote:On October 24 2010 23:25 tacrats wrote:On October 24 2010 23:21 MrLonely wrote:
Legitimate storymaking technique. Stephen King doesn't know how his stories will end either, and I consider him a pretty good writer. Stephen King is a good writer and can pull that off. If WoL was any indication (ex: magix saves kerrigan raynor carries her off into the sunset), blizz doesnt have good writers anymore. So the fact that they have no idea what they are doing is going to result in a terrible, terrible story. Just because you disliked the single-player, don't pretend the rest of the world agrees. Hardly any writers know how a story will end. In fact, knowing often makes for a worse story, since then the story can be somewhat artificial and drawn out, since the pacing might not be accounted for in the original idea. any self-respecting individual would agree sc2 SP sucked.
You should see the SP more as a movie. the books go way deeper into the story line. well at least they did for SC and BW. And I personally did like the SP a lot. (Maybe some more baseless missions)
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On October 24 2010 23:32 HardcoreBilly wrote:J.R.R. Tolkien made up Lord of the Rings as he wrote. + Show Spoiler +It's too bad Blizzard's story writer decided to kill Tychus off. Totally unnecessary.
They said Tychus probably wasn't dead in the Q&A on Friday.
And said the graphics people have already played with an Infested Tychus model.
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So you've decided it's going to be bad before it's actually made? I really liked the Wings of Liberty campaign story, it's about space marines fighting aliens with a sub plot about a mystic religion based on cool lasers and crystals. I wasn't expecting Thomas Hardy.
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On October 24 2010 23:32 HardcoreBilly wrote:J.R.R. Tolkien made up Lord of the Rings as he wrote. + Show Spoiler +It's too bad Blizzard's story writer decided to kill Tychus off. Totally unnecessary.
+ Show Spoiler +I'm not so sure he's dead.
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On October 24 2010 23:37 Deckkie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 23:34 tacrats wrote:On October 24 2010 23:31 Mothxal wrote:On October 24 2010 23:25 tacrats wrote:On October 24 2010 23:21 MrLonely wrote:
Legitimate storymaking technique. Stephen King doesn't know how his stories will end either, and I consider him a pretty good writer. Stephen King is a good writer and can pull that off. If WoL was any indication (ex: magix saves kerrigan raynor carries her off into the sunset), blizz doesnt have good writers anymore. So the fact that they have no idea what they are doing is going to result in a terrible, terrible story. Just because you disliked the single-player, don't pretend the rest of the world agrees. Hardly any writers know how a story will end. In fact, knowing often makes for a worse story, since then the story can be somewhat artificial and drawn out, since the pacing might not be accounted for in the original idea. any self-respecting individual would agree sc2 SP sucked. You should see the SP more as a movie. the books go way deeper into the story line. well at least they did for SC and BW. And I personally did like the SP a lot. (Maybe some more baseless missions)
Ignoring the concept that a story can be fine if you need supplementary material for it to not suck:
Calling something a movie doesn't excuse it from having a horrible storyline. Sure, movies can have simpler storylines because they just don't have the room for anything more complex, but there's still good and bad storytelling within movies. Example? Compare Star Wars IV to I. IV didn't have a complex storyline, but it had solid characters that acted out their parts with nothing out of character. I had a much more complex storyline that couldn't be fully understood without reading the books, a set of characters that (outside of being impossible to care about) did not always make sense, such as the wise Jedi master Qui-Gon using the force to cheat and browbeat people every other scene, and completely worthless exposition with the little organisms that cause the force. Sound familiar? That's right, Starcraft 1's Terran campaign was far from complex (Zerg attack, ally with rebels, overthrow government, discover leader to be evil), but all of the characters acted in line and you could have emotions for all of them, whether pitying Kerrigan or hating Mengsk. Most of all, that story was IT. There wasn't anything else you should go read for clarification, except possibly the lore guide if you felt ambitious. Then, in SC2, you have Raynor going back on his promise during Mission 8 of the SC:BW Zerg Campaign (True Colors; he promises to kill Kerrigan some day) and suddenly falls back in love with her for no apparent reason, you get near-emotionless characters like Matt Horner to empathize with, the Overmind is retroactively written to be a poor being working against fate, and none of it makes any more sense than Mengsk sending out Tychus with a bomb strapped to him with orders to kill KERRIGAN, not Raynor. The SC2 story was horrible, and something Blizzard should be ashamed of.
None of this is to say that the individual missions were bad. In fact, they were all very enjoyable, and on average better than the SC1 missions barring any influence of story (it feels cooler to be capturing the Overmind than bringing Medics to certain locations). The story just happens to be awful.
Also, if this hasn't been done already, could I request a mod send this to the SC2 SP subforum?
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I would love it, if on the last zerg map something completly unbealiveable happens just before the happy end, brining up some cliffhanger
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On October 24 2010 23:19 mustaju wrote:
I foresee an increase in only situationally effective units and bullshit mechanics to create new content.
I don't get this, Weren't there situationally effective units in BW and WoL? Unless you mean like 'anti-battlecruiser turrets' or 'explodes when it's 4pm on a Thursday' lol.
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On October 24 2010 23:22 Theston wrote:
Of course they don't.
Do you think J.K. Rowling knew how her seventh book ended when she wrote the first?
Tolkien and JMS knew how to plan out their story arcs. Rowling wasn't even planning to make an arc from the get go, Blizzard was and should've planned better.
Their writing department has become terrible compared to what it was during the SC/BW era but I'm hoping this bit of news means they've heeded the backlash to WoL narrative and retcons and are in the midst of trying to make it better. As bad as their department has become I find it hard to believe they didn't have a preplanning phase that sets the general idea of how each campaign should play out.
Regardless I won't buy HotS if the story gets bad reviews because that was my primary reason for buying WoL and the narrative in general was low quality elementary school material and the revisions and newest extrapolations on SC/BW pissed me off.
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I am actually surprised to learn that Tolkien and King don't know how their stories end. But not so surprised that Blizzard/Metzen doesn't. You can see with WC3 that they rewrote/retconned the entire story.
I think SC2 story was made for an entirely different audience than SC BW story. Popular/teenage culture has changed a lot in all these years. Things have gotten really shallow. Prime example to me is how Raynor and Kerrigan suddenly have a romantic relationship. Did they suddenly fall in love somewhere between BW and SC2? Raynor and Kerrigan didn't even know each other during the SC storyline. Then in BW she turned zerg and Raynor said he wanted to kill her.
I think SC2 storyline was designed for people who are too young to have played SC BW. I am really disappointed in Metzen that he sacrificed his story and produced what market research discovered they should produce.
Yeah, war on Kespa, yeah catering to the casual market, yeah Blizzard got so big quality management has suffered. But it really seems everyone that is still at Blizzard just sold out on their artistic motivations and those that weren't able to do so left in the past. That's why all those people left. They didn't like the direction Blizzard was going into.
I have drawn up some story archs myself. Yes, you can never know how it will end the first time you write something. But you have to go back and rewrite everything, set up things for later plot twists, fill up plot holes. You have to go back and redo everything several times to make something good, efficient and consistent.
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Estonia4504 Posts
On October 25 2010 00:09 Redmark wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 23:19 mustaju wrote:
I foresee an increase in only situationally effective units and bullshit mechanics to create new content. I don't get this, Weren't there situationally effective units in BW and WoL? Unless you mean like 'anti-battlecruiser turrets' or 'explodes when it's 4pm on a Thursday' lol.
I sincerely believe WoL is stacked with units that are situational and that there are hardcounters which force you to transition, not supplement. Like corrupters are for colossi and colossi only, unless they built motherships and carriers. Not much you can do besides that with them. Or how you need vikings against colossi that aren't going to be too helpful dealing with the rest of their army. More units = more situational units. There's only so many generalists you can have.
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I think there is going to be a happy end. Blizzard knows that and I know it. I dont remember the story of Wings of Liberty, because it was meaningless. Maybe Blizzard already wrote it, but forgot also?
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On October 25 2010 00:05 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 23:37 Deckkie wrote:On October 24 2010 23:34 tacrats wrote:On October 24 2010 23:31 Mothxal wrote:On October 24 2010 23:25 tacrats wrote:On October 24 2010 23:21 MrLonely wrote:
Legitimate storymaking technique. Stephen King doesn't know how his stories will end either, and I consider him a pretty good writer. Stephen King is a good writer and can pull that off. If WoL was any indication (ex: magix saves kerrigan raynor carries her off into the sunset), blizz doesnt have good writers anymore. So the fact that they have no idea what they are doing is going to result in a terrible, terrible story. Just because you disliked the single-player, don't pretend the rest of the world agrees. Hardly any writers know how a story will end. In fact, knowing often makes for a worse story, since then the story can be somewhat artificial and drawn out, since the pacing might not be accounted for in the original idea. any self-respecting individual would agree sc2 SP sucked. You should see the SP more as a movie. the books go way deeper into the story line. well at least they did for SC and BW. And I personally did like the SP a lot. (Maybe some more baseless missions) Ignoring the concept that a story can be fine if you need supplementary material for it to not suck: Calling something a movie doesn't excuse it from having a horrible storyline. Sure, movies can have simpler storylines because they just don't have the room for anything more complex, but there's still good and bad storytelling within movies. Example? Compare Star Wars IV to I. IV didn't have a complex storyline, but it had solid characters that acted out their parts with nothing out of character. I had a much more complex storyline that couldn't be fully understood without reading the books, a set of characters that (outside of being impossible to care about) did not always make sense, such as the wise Jedi master Qui-Gon using the force to cheat and browbeat people every other scene, and completely worthless exposition with the little organisms that cause the force. Sound familiar? That's right, Starcraft 1's Terran campaign was far from complex (Zerg attack, ally with rebels, overthrow government, discover leader to be evil), but all of the characters acted in line and you could have emotions for all of them, whether pitying Kerrigan or hating Mengsk. Most of all, that story was IT. There wasn't anything else you should go read for clarification, except possibly the lore guide if you felt ambitious. Then, in SC2, you have Raynor going back on his promise during Mission 8 of the SC:BW Zerg Campaign (True Colors; he promises to kill Kerrigan some day) and suddenly falls back in love with her for no apparent reason, you get near-emotionless characters like Matt Horner to empathize with, the Overmind is retroactively written to be a poor being working against fate, and none of it makes any more sense than Mengsk sending out Tychus with a bomb strapped to him with orders to kill KERRIGAN, not Raynor. The SC2 story was horrible, and something Blizzard should be ashamed of. None of this is to say that the individual missions were bad. In fact, they were all very enjoyable, and on average better than the SC1 missions barring any influence of story (it feels cooler to be capturing the Overmind than bringing Medics to certain locations). The story just happens to be awful. Also, if this hasn't been done already, could I request a mod send this to the SC2 SP subforum?
Interesting view.
I personaly couldnt believe it either that Raynor was trying to "save" Carrigan again. But they gave an good explanation about this with the Q&A at Blizzcon, and I can very well live with their awnser. But I did like the story line. Raynor getting more and more support. The Mobius foundation. Mengsk and his son. The role Protoss played in WoL. Just all the different races and factions that have their own clear reason for handling problems their own way. And the place Raynor has in it. All In all I do find it very Star wars like. Not everything was explained in depth. you actually had to think why one would do what he did. It wasn't a black and white story imo.
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i would have guessed this anyways
i remember hearing a interview about a year ago about how they did the lore for SC1 and i was really surprised to hear how they pretty much just made it up on the spot, didnt seem like there was alot of planning or writing going into it.
which is very saddening. blizz lore was good in the 90s..
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On October 25 2010 00:40 PhiliBiRD wrote:
i would have guessed this anyways
i remember hearing a interview about a year ago about how they did the lore for SC1 and i was really surprised to hear how they pretty much just made it up on the spot, didnt seem like there was alot of planning or writing going into it.
which is very saddening. blizz lore was good in the 90s..
It's difficult to be sure that something was "good" 10-15 years ago and it's not simply that your taste has changed
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On October 24 2010 23:12 tacrats wrote:" it's more ambitious, it's bigger than what Warcraft: The Frozen Throne was to Reign of Chaos and I don't anticipate it being done in that one year time frame."
Interesting. TFT represented a HUGE change from RoC. Aside from a great campaign and the usual added units/heros, they changed a TON in the game mechanics. They changed armor types to a bunch of units, going so far as to add another one, and they added player-built shops, which completely changed the way players played. I'd go as far as to say TFT was more different from RoC than BW was from SC, and all long-time BW players here will know that the addition of medics, corsairs, and lurkers completely changed the way SC was played on a competitive level.
The one thing that makes me wonder if they'll really go this far is that SC2 is a far more polished multiplayer game than either SC1 or WC3:RoC. Both of these games were fairly broken for multiplayer, and the changes introduced are what allowed them to become the robust games they eventually became. SC2, on the other hand, is already a fantastic multiplayer game. We're seeing it in the GSL, and we saw it at BlizzCon. Players are playing more macro-oriented games, and we're seeing decision-making play a bigger role than massing broken units and the like. Sure, it's not perfect, but from a competitive level it's streets ahead of SC and RoC.
So I'm not sure I want to see dramatic changes. What I'm hoping they mean are changes to Bnet. I'm hoping to see a revolutionized battlenet with (gasp) chatrooms, sponsored tournaments, etc. On the other hand, I'd like to see this come out earlier than 2012. Kind of a pickle. :-)
Either way, exciting times for SC2!
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Most people in the creative fields "know" how a story might end, but they also have no clue at the same time. The sometimes have to let the story take them there and see what happens. Then they go back and make sure everything flows well. This is no different in modern video games and their stories.
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On October 24 2010 23:32 HardcoreBilly wrote:
It's too bad Blizzard's story writer decided to kill Tychus off. Totally unnecessary.
Calling it here. Not dead.
If you listened to the RTS tournament stage when they had the voice actors out, the guy who does Tychus said at the end "I look forward to all of you seeing Tychus in Hots" - I think he slipped because a few looked awkwardly at him.
Even Metzen said when asked if Tychus was really dead..."Does anyone really ever die in our games?"
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On October 24 2010 23:37 Deckkie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 23:34 tacrats wrote:On October 24 2010 23:31 Mothxal wrote:On October 24 2010 23:25 tacrats wrote:On October 24 2010 23:21 MrLonely wrote:
Legitimate storymaking technique. Stephen King doesn't know how his stories will end either, and I consider him a pretty good writer. Stephen King is a good writer and can pull that off. If WoL was any indication (ex: magix saves kerrigan raynor carries her off into the sunset), blizz doesnt have good writers anymore. So the fact that they have no idea what they are doing is going to result in a terrible, terrible story. Just because you disliked the single-player, don't pretend the rest of the world agrees. Hardly any writers know how a story will end. In fact, knowing often makes for a worse story, since then the story can be somewhat artificial and drawn out, since the pacing might not be accounted for in the original idea. any self-respecting individual would agree sc2 SP sucked. You should see the SP more as a movie. the books go way deeper into the story line. well at least they did for SC and BW. And I personally did like the SP a lot. (Maybe some more baseless missions)
If the SP is a movie, it was a terribly written action flick.
Oh, and pretty much every book written based on a Blizzard title has been complete trash. Terrible writing that would only appeal to teenagers overly-zealous about SC/WC/Diablo. The first few Diablo books might be able to pass as good, but really, nothing else can.
Calling it here. Not dead.
If you listened to the RTS tournament stage when they had the voice actors out, the guy who does Tychus said at the end "I look forward to all of you seeing Tychus in Hots" - I think he slipped because a few looked awkwardly at him.
Even Metzen said when asked if Tychus was really dead..."Does anyone really ever die in our games?"
Single player screen specifically says that Tychus is dead. If he's alive, it's a straight up retcon.
It's difficult to be sure that something was "good" 10-15 years ago and it's not simply that your taste has changed
It wasn't terrible. Warcraft, SC, and Diablo all had stories that were solid, didn't contain an abundance of massive plot holes, and were pretty enjoyable. Not amazing, but good. Then it started going downhill with WC3.
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On October 25 2010 01:04 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Single player screen specifically says that Tychus is dead. If he's alive, it's a straight up retcon.
It's Blizzard, bro. Retcons are a hobby
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On October 25 2010 01:10 Pfeff wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 01:04 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Single player screen specifically says that Tychus is dead. If he's alive, it's a straight up retcon. It's Blizzard, bro. Retcons are a hobby
And just another sign of terrible writing.
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Heart of the Swarm = Valerian and Raynor now turn on Arcturus, and launch a direct assault on the Dominion, using the resources under Valerian's control, and Raynor's tactician abilities.
When it becomes apparent that Raynor and Valerian will win, Arcturus pulls his ace in the hole, which is an overmind created by the Dominion, and uses that to control the Zerg and destroy Valerian/Raynor.
Obviously, this plan backfires horribly, as the Zerg can't be controlled by humans (same shit happens in the original SC) and they turn around and annihilate the Dominion.
Now Raynor and Valerian run for their lives, and seek the help of Zeratul and his allies.
Meanwhile, the Zerg are drawn by the Taldarim, obliterate them, but infest those with high psyionic potential, creating pseudo-hybrids that are not as powerful as the original ones, and then launch their assault on Valerian/Raynor/Zeratul, since they are the last true force in the known Universe able to oppose them. The story ends as the Zerg prep for the final battle.
Legacy of the Void = Raynor/Valerian/Zeratul are chilling at the running through the Sector, attempting to gather what forces they can, while avoiding the inevitable final conflict with the Zerg swarm.
They end up on some planet, and uncover a giant temple, once used by the Xel'Naga. Via artifacts and ancient scriptures with high psyionic residue, he is able to literally see the entire history of the Protoss race, from the viewpoint of the Xel'Naga.
Turns out, that the tablet wasn't actually a history, but a prediction that seems to be 100% accurate, including the final confrontation with the Zerg, Kerrigan's shenanigans, and Zeratul's last moments being with two humans.
Then, the "spirit" of a Xel'Naga prophet appears (it's just a really high-tech hologram, far beyond any technology any race possesses. It basically apologizes to Zeratul for creating the Protoss, the Zerg, and all of the pain that they put the two races through. It then tells Zeratul that the visions he saw in WoL were accurate, but also acted on his own view of reality.
Because of this, he perceived the Hybrids in a form completely different from their true form. The prophet then tells him that the Xel'Naga actually created the hybrids by combining the Zerg and Protoss and manipulating their shit, and the end result was standing with him: Oh shit, The Terran!
(should also mention here that Zeratul realizes this is the truth, due to their latent psyionic potential. The prophet tells him that the Terran haven't figured out how to "awaken their potential")
Zeratul is then faced with a decision to either annihilate his allies in the face of his own annihilation, to preemptively destroy the people who will one day end his race. or use their help, and destroy. Because Zeratul trusts Raynor, he decides to preserve the alliance yada yada. the prophet then tells him he made the right choice because the hybrids are the only perfect race and will save the universe. He then awakens a massive ancient Xel'Naga guardian armyand gives control to Kerrigan (yes I didn't forget about her.)
This whole time, Kerrigan has been recovering from her infestation, while having vivid dreams of what is yet to come. Apparently, her powers were semi awakened due to her infestation, and she is the only one able to control the Xel'Naga army. They take the Xel'Naga army, and attack the Zerg, totally annihilating what appears to be the entire race. A final battle happens, epic cinematics, and in the end, we see Zeratul leading the charge against the Zerg. they destroy the final Overmind, the bloodthirsty one created by Arcturus, the Zerg is destroyed.
In the final Cinematic, we see Zeratul peacing out in his ship, gravely wounded, and carrying something in a satchel. the whole time we hear a conversation that Zeratul had with the Overmind before killing it. The Overmind essentially begs Zeratul to save it's race, and that it wasn't their fault yada yada. the final scene, Zeratul reveals what was in the satchel, and it is a single egg of the Overmind, the last existing piece of the entire Zerg race. then it blacks out (with a little "see you in 12 years" caption for shits and giggles)
BOOM, HEADSHOT. Sorry Blizzard, I think I spoiled.
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That plot would at least make for some epic cut-scenes, but I'm afraid we are going to end up with something far worse T_T
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On October 24 2010 23:22 Theston wrote:
Of course they don't.
Do you think J.K. Rowling knew how her seventh book ended when she wrote the first?
Is this sarcasm because I think J.K. Rowling was the one of the authors that had myth attached to her that when she showed up on the publishing company for the first time to publish her novel she had brought along a entire draft plan for story and fate of chatacters xD. Of course, I do agree making things up (flexibility) a you go along is legitimate technique, though in order for it to work effectively you really need to set concrete background and characters before actually starting.
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On October 24 2010 23:34 tacrats wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 23:31 Mothxal wrote:On October 24 2010 23:25 tacrats wrote:On October 24 2010 23:21 MrLonely wrote:
Legitimate storymaking technique. Stephen King doesn't know how his stories will end either, and I consider him a pretty good writer. Stephen King is a good writer and can pull that off. If WoL was any indication (ex: magix saves kerrigan raynor carries her off into the sunset), blizz doesnt have good writers anymore. So the fact that they have no idea what they are doing is going to result in a terrible, terrible story. Just because you disliked the single-player, don't pretend the rest of the world agrees. Hardly any writers know how a story will end. In fact, knowing often makes for a worse story, since then the story can be somewhat artificial and drawn out, since the pacing might not be accounted for in the original idea. any self-respecting individual would agree sc2 SP sucked. User was warned for this post
I agree. I love how they were hyping it to be the best SP campaign they've ever made (by far, as Rob Pardo said) and that it also had a deep story. This is what made me lose faith in Blizzard (including things they did in WoW), but I still like to follow the SC2 pro community.
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Whatever, I loved the single player and the plot that went along with it.
Looking forward to the next game, sad to hear about 2011, but... Seriously wasn't expecting that anyway.
I'd love a different campaign gameplay-wise though, just because it'd be interesting to see that change.
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There is no cow level!!!!
As long as the campaign deviates away from the Hollywood-esque plot designed for 13 year olds, I don't care how they go about doing it. I loved the WC3 campaign so much because of Arthas. As you played through each mission, you slowly saw him lose his sanity until he finally became a deathknight. He was, in my opinion, perfectly or nearly perfectly developed.
In WoL, every character is so heavily stereotyped and nobody really develops. The most interesting parts about the Dark Voice, the death everything, the Protoss's last stand, those are all side missions. Hell, the Mengsk storyline wasn't even finished, as far as we know everyone's all pissed at him but he's still the emperor. Every part of the campaign just feels really half done. Nothing is fleshed out as much as it could be.
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On October 25 2010 01:49 Deadlyhazard wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 23:34 tacrats wrote:On October 24 2010 23:31 Mothxal wrote:On October 24 2010 23:25 tacrats wrote:On October 24 2010 23:21 MrLonely wrote:
Legitimate storymaking technique. Stephen King doesn't know how his stories will end either, and I consider him a pretty good writer. Stephen King is a good writer and can pull that off. If WoL was any indication (ex: magix saves kerrigan raynor carries her off into the sunset), blizz doesnt have good writers anymore. So the fact that they have no idea what they are doing is going to result in a terrible, terrible story. Just because you disliked the single-player, don't pretend the rest of the world agrees. Hardly any writers know how a story will end. In fact, knowing often makes for a worse story, since then the story can be somewhat artificial and drawn out, since the pacing might not be accounted for in the original idea. any self-respecting individual would agree sc2 SP sucked. User was warned for this post I agree. I love how they were hyping it to be the best SP campaign they've ever made (by far, as Rob Pardo said) and that it also had a deep story. This is what made me lose faith in Blizzard (including things they did in WoW), but I still like to follow the SC2 pro community.
Well its not like the single-player gameplay was bad at least. Even if the story is godawful as I expect, I know the actual gameplay will be great. It was a massive, massive improvment over the "build up, destroy, repeat" tedium of SC1 and BW. Probably the best RTS campaign of all time if you judge on gameplay alone.
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On October 24 2010 23:39 Koh wrote:
So you've decided it's going to be bad before it's actually made? I really liked the Wings of Liberty campaign story, it's about space marines fighting aliens with a sub plot about a mystic religion based on cool lasers and crystals. I wasn't expecting Thomas Hardy.
This person here is right, give him/her a medal.
Seriously...
I just saw Bladerunner, started Planescape Torment, and am getting near the end of Farscape. I can honestly say that even Blizzards greatest fiction is solid waste excretion compared to these three. And yet I'm still a avid SC fan boy.
It was a fun interactive movie and game. I got my monies worth.
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I like that they haven't actually finished the story (or they did, and are changing it), which means the community feedback from the downsides of the first story are having an effect.
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Why would the story be any better if they wrote it before they started on the rest of the game?
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On October 24 2010 23:22 Theston wrote:
Of course they don't.
Do you think J.K. Rowling knew how her seventh book ended when she wrote the first?
Pretty sure she had the final chapters of The Deathly Hallows written before Harry Potter was big.
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On October 24 2010 23:21 MrLonely wrote:
Legitimate storymaking technique. Stephen King doesn't know how his stories will end either, and I consider him a pretty good writer.
That's probably why most of Steven Kings endings are crap.
The best television series are developed by story-boarding the whole season. They plan the whole story arch, then go back and write individual episodes. Look at HBO's Rome, Showtime's Dexter, and The first season of Heroes (after 1st season they made it up as they went along).
I sincerely hope that they do this with the expansions before they put too much effort into production, otherwise the third expo will have a really contrived story-line.
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On October 24 2010 23:32 HardcoreBilly wrote:J.R.R. Tolkien made up Lord of the Rings as he wrote. + Show Spoiler +It's too bad Blizzard's story writer decided to kill Tychus off. Totally unnecessary.
Although it's true that he more or less made it up as he wrote, Tolkien didn't publish Fellowship and then start writing the story for Two Towers: all three volumes were written in one go, and so changes could be made to earlier parts if necessary in order to make the whole thing flow together.
Wings of Liberty has already been released and cannot easily be changed, so the other two expansions should absolutely already have basic plot lines set in stone. Otherwise you end up with a story that has no flow and contradicts itself.
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There's nothing wrong with that, per se. About half of the authors in the world are what's called discovery writers; that is to say they don't know the ending before they start writing it and they sort of let the characters do as they will. So it's not out of the question for that to happen with a video game, and in fact makes more sense as you can tailor it to your gameplay better (missions, arcs, etc.)
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Honestly, I thought the hybrids were silly, but I didn't dislike the story too terribly. I mean, a lot of it made sense and it had good twists. I also like how they allowed you to pick how Jim's story would go in the course of progressing through the 'main' story. I really don't know how they are going to continue it with HotS.
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On October 25 2010 00:58 NexRex wrote:
Most people in the creative fields "know" how a story might end, but they also have no clue at the same time. The sometimes have to let the story take them there and see what happens. Then they go back and make sure everything flows well. This is no different in modern video games and their stories.
Glad I read through the thread before posting, I was pretty much going to say this. I agree, I think you're reading a little too much into the quote. The response is in answer to whether the story is FULLY written out. He's not saying they have no idea where they are going with it, just that nothing is set in stone.
I actually rant quite a bit about what I feel is a trend lately in storytelling to just make up crap as you go along, and I despise it. BUT, that is only because of the concurrent trend of having constant cliffhangers, ambiguous foreshadowing, etc. If you're going to do a cliffhanger, or present some mystery and give hints about possible answers, then you'd damn well better be doing so with a clear plan, yes. JJ Abrams (TV version), I'm looking at you!
Mostly this is just because this kind of storytelling works really well in television, where you need to hook people from one episode/season to the next, and also have nowhere near complete control of the story since actors can leave/die, the duration of the show is uncertain, etc. But it's terrible storytelling, and I hate when it starts to pervade other mediums. However, I don't really think SC2 is a case of that happening. They don't drop any "oooooo!" moments on us where we're supposed to guess about some sekret hidden meaning. It's just a fun story.
Why would the story be any better if they wrote it before they started on the rest of the game?
In this case I agree with you, but in general a story can be horribly damaged by a later chapter, if that later chapter reveals that the earlier stuff was just vacuous nonsense. If an early chapter of a story presents a cool mystery and hints for the reader/audience to ponder, and later it becomes obvious that there was nothing really being hinted at at all, that information means that the earlier story actually sucked, even if you didn't realize it at the time. Foreshadowing and mystery elements in a story actually make that story expand outside the mere text, which is totally awesome if the extra stuff is awesome. However, if that extra stuff is just a bunch of bullshit, it can do terrible, terrible damage to the story.
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On October 25 2010 02:08 Ichabod wrote:
I like that they haven't actually finished the story (or they did, and are changing it), which means the community feedback from the downsides of the first story are having an effect.
It doesn't work like that. The artist tells whatever story they feel like, or whatever some massive demograph survey dictates. The people play it, the ones that like it like it, and the ones that don't rush to the forums to whine about it (but most of them say nothing).
Afraid that forum topic aren't going to change anything major, especially not the kind of topics which involve people thinking that they know the characters and the themes of SCI and BW better than the people who actually wrote them. No writer pays attention to those, respectable or otherwise.
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The SC2 campaign is basically a word for word description of Narm. So many horribad, facepalm inducing moments.
"we'll take our people to HAVEN, its a fertile planet that nobody wants to go to cause its near the protoss! :D"
"well, maybe you should make sure your people aren't infected"
"NO THATS IMPOSSIBLE I AM OFFENDED AT THE THOUGHT"
"er...ok"
:one mission latter:
"you know that haven planet, we can't seem to call them"
"UNEXPECTED"
I esp. like how if you side with the protoss in that mission, you can easily save more people than you would fighting the protoss, but everyone acts like you did some big bad thing and the doctor goes all insane. Uh, what? Even more perplexing, siding with the colonists seems to delete the virus, as they all live happily ever after (minus the burninated colonists to le mothership) :psyduck:
"lets a-move char!"
"oh god this is ending terribly! Just like last time!"
"lets take our helmets off on char!"
"yes, i too can breathe poisonous atmospheres!"
Don't even get me started on how the real "tactical genius" of the show is the adjutant, which does everything for raynor. Or how raynor is a bipolar basket case who goes crazy anytime anyone mentions kerrigan. Basically, if there are characters talking in a cutscene, they are saying incredibly retarded, non-genre savy things. SC2's writing is so bad I can't help but feel the entire singleplayer campaign is a meta-troll on the community. Carrying a naked kerrigan out naked, on a volcanic, poisonous atmospheric planet? really?
Of course, the worst of all if Findlay. What kind of a xanatos gambit is that? I'll release this dangerous criminal, so he can get close to Raynor, rebel against me, seize all these previously unknown alien artifacts, just so that when the zerg attacks, they can team up with my disloyal son, take my fleet, attack char, de-infest kerrigan, and THEN kill her. Meanwhile, I will be trying to kill Findlay and Raynor, for they are criminals. Uh... WAT?
*sigh*
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On October 25 2010 01:04 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +Calling it here. Not dead.
If you listened to the RTS tournament stage when they had the voice actors out, the guy who does Tychus said at the end "I look forward to all of you seeing Tychus in Hots" - I think he slipped because a few looked awkwardly at him.
Even Metzen said when asked if Tychus was really dead..."Does anyone really ever die in our games?" Single player screen specifically says that Tychus is dead. If he's alive, it's a straight up retcon.
My guess is that that's Blizzard's pre-teen-friendly way of letting you know you're supposed to think Tychus is dead.
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On October 25 2010 02:26 Yotta wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 01:04 Stratos_speAr wrote:Calling it here. Not dead.
If you listened to the RTS tournament stage when they had the voice actors out, the guy who does Tychus said at the end "I look forward to all of you seeing Tychus in Hots" - I think he slipped because a few looked awkwardly at him.
Even Metzen said when asked if Tychus was really dead..."Does anyone really ever die in our games?" Single player screen specifically says that Tychus is dead. If he's alive, it's a straight up retcon. My guess is that that's Blizzard's pre-teen-friendly way of letting you know you're supposed to think Tychus is dead. I believe they said at Blizzcon that he was dead, officially.
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On October 25 2010 02:23 Billy_ wrote:
It doesn't work like that. The artist tells whatever story they feel like, or whatever some massive demograph survey dictates. The people play it, the ones that like it like it, and the ones that don't rush to the forums to whine about it (but most of them say nothing).
Afraid that forum topic aren't going to change anything major, especially not the kind of topics which involve people thinking that they know the characters and the themes of SCI and BW better than the people who actually wrote them. No writer pays attention to those, respectable or otherwise.
While I agree that random, angry complaint threads aren't likely to change anything, threads that express excitement about parts of the story the author didn't realize would be so significant can very well have an effect. Disappointment about some particular element of the storytelling from someone who is otherwise totally involved with the story and author is also quite possibly something that would influence them. But yeah, someone who just hates it outright isn't really part of the process I don't think.
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On October 25 2010 02:27 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 02:26 Yotta wrote:On October 25 2010 01:04 Stratos_speAr wrote:Calling it here. Not dead.
If you listened to the RTS tournament stage when they had the voice actors out, the guy who does Tychus said at the end "I look forward to all of you seeing Tychus in Hots" - I think he slipped because a few looked awkwardly at him.
Even Metzen said when asked if Tychus was really dead..."Does anyone really ever die in our games?" Single player screen specifically says that Tychus is dead. If he's alive, it's a straight up retcon. My guess is that that's Blizzard's pre-teen-friendly way of letting you know you're supposed to think Tychus is dead. I believe they said at Blizzcon that he was dead, officially.
They said basically the opposite. I typed what was said on the second page of this thread
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On October 25 2010 02:28 Pfeff wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 02:27 MythicalMage wrote:On October 25 2010 02:26 Yotta wrote:On October 25 2010 01:04 Stratos_speAr wrote:Calling it here. Not dead.
If you listened to the RTS tournament stage when they had the voice actors out, the guy who does Tychus said at the end "I look forward to all of you seeing Tychus in Hots" - I think he slipped because a few looked awkwardly at him.
Even Metzen said when asked if Tychus was really dead..."Does anyone really ever die in our games?" Single player screen specifically says that Tychus is dead. If he's alive, it's a straight up retcon. My guess is that that's Blizzard's pre-teen-friendly way of letting you know you're supposed to think Tychus is dead. I believe they said at Blizzcon that he was dead, officially. They said basically the opposite. I typed what was said on the second page of this thread
Ah, my mistake then. >.>
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The sign of good writing is an author who is sensitive to how their characters would react in the situations that unforld, and how they will mature as the story continues. It's when characters suddenly start acting 'out of character' that people feel cheated a bit, this is why the second series of Heroes was complete crap.
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On October 25 2010 02:23 MalVortex wrote:The SC2 campaign is basically a word for word description of Narm. So many horribad, facepalm inducing moments. "we'll take our people to HAVEN, its a fertile planet that nobody wants to go to cause its near the protoss! :D" "well, maybe you should make sure your people aren't infected" "NO THATS IMPOSSIBLE I AM OFFENDED AT THE THOUGHT" "er...ok" :one mission latter: "you know that haven planet, we can't seem to call them" "UNEXPECTED" I esp. like how if you side with the protoss in that mission, you can easily save more people than you would fighting the protoss, but everyone acts like you did some big bad thing and the doctor goes all insane. Uh, what? Even more perplexing, siding with the colonists seems to delete the virus, as they all live happily ever after (minus the burninated colonists to le mothership) :psyduck: "lets a-move char!" "oh god this is ending terribly! Just like last time!" "lets take our helmets off on char!" "yes, i too can breathe poisonous atmospheres!" Don't even get me started on how the real "tactical genius" of the show is the adjutant, which does everything for raynor. Or how raynor is a bipolar basket case who goes crazy anytime anyone mentions kerrigan. Basically, if there are characters talking in a cutscene, they are saying incredibly retarded, non-genre savy things. SC2's writing is so bad I can't help but feel the entire singleplayer campaign is a meta-troll on the community. Carrying a naked kerrigan out naked, on a volcanic, poisonous atmospheric planet? really?Of course, the worst of all if Findlay. What kind of a xanatos gambit is that? I'll release this dangerous criminal, so he can get close to Raynor, rebel against me, seize all these previously unknown alien artifacts, just so that when the zerg attacks, they can team up with my disloyal son, take my fleet, attack char, de-infest kerrigan, and THEN kill her. Meanwhile, I will be trying to kill Findlay and Raynor, for they are criminals. Uh... WAT? *sigh*
YESSSSSSSSSS
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On October 25 2010 02:01 TheMonkeyMon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 01:49 Deadlyhazard wrote:On October 24 2010 23:34 tacrats wrote:On October 24 2010 23:31 Mothxal wrote:On October 24 2010 23:25 tacrats wrote:On October 24 2010 23:21 MrLonely wrote:
Legitimate storymaking technique. Stephen King doesn't know how his stories will end either, and I consider him a pretty good writer. Stephen King is a good writer and can pull that off. If WoL was any indication (ex: magix saves kerrigan raynor carries her off into the sunset), blizz doesnt have good writers anymore. So the fact that they have no idea what they are doing is going to result in a terrible, terrible story. Just because you disliked the single-player, don't pretend the rest of the world agrees. Hardly any writers know how a story will end. In fact, knowing often makes for a worse story, since then the story can be somewhat artificial and drawn out, since the pacing might not be accounted for in the original idea. any self-respecting individual would agree sc2 SP sucked. User was warned for this post I agree. I love how they were hyping it to be the best SP campaign they've ever made (by far, as Rob Pardo said) and that it also had a deep story. This is what made me lose faith in Blizzard (including things they did in WoW), but I still like to follow the SC2 pro community. Well its not like the single-player gameplay was bad at least. Even if the story is godawful as I expect, I know the actual gameplay will be great. It was a massive, massive improvment over the "build up, destroy, repeat" tedium of SC1 and BW. Probably the best RTS campaign of all time if you judge on gameplay alone.
Actually I didn't like the gameplay. Most of it was constrained by some sort of timer or the usual build as much as you can to overcome your enemies, like SC1. I still feel WC3 is the pinnacle of SP RTS gameplay.
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So WoL's story was poorly planned and not well thought-out of.
What else is new?
To be fair, most authors make stuff up as they go. They may have a basic structure in mind, but that fluctuate over time.
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On October 25 2010 02:23 MalVortex wrote:
Of course, the worst of all if Findlay. What kind of a xanatos gambit is that? I'll release this dangerous criminal, so he can get close to Raynor, rebel against me, seize all these previously unknown alien artifacts, just so that when the zerg attacks, they can team up with my disloyal son, take my fleet, attack char, de-infest kerrigan, and THEN kill her. Meanwhile, I will be trying to kill Findlay and Raynor, for they are criminals. Uh... WAT?
i think you mean Mengsk, and he didnt do shit.
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All this says to me is we had absolutely no idea,what the f----k we were doing developing sc2 for 7 long years.Our development process was a mess,up until two years before release.We knew we couldn't just continue spending millions for nothing and delaying the product infinitely,because it was in danger of getting canceled.
So we decided to cover up our .........and sell a 3rd of a product with the tag line "We have so much content,we cant push it all out at the same time"BFS
But now we have absolutely no content whatsoever,no story,no multiplayer- design philosophy,no campaign progress,no voice work,nothing,not even a general direction.We have to start from scratch,but we have no idea what to do A|G|AIN.So be prepared for another 2.5 years."Hey its the same time-frame other good devs take to release full-blow sequels,you know those with new engines and actual content to support them.But we can afford that,thanks to our milking machine.Bless those clueless WoW ..............."
Take this for the anger infested rant that it is,even if it does contain some truth.I just knew they were going to screw me over.Every promise goes out the window when milking is involved.Post launch features are now post HOTS.Really?From 18 months to 2.5 years?Really?From marketplace and social features =  From we have content for 3 games,to we have no general direction or prep-work done.Really?
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On October 25 2010 03:18 anch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 02:23 MalVortex wrote:
Of course, the worst of all if Findlay. What kind of a xanatos gambit is that? I'll release this dangerous criminal, so he can get close to Raynor, rebel against me, seize all these previously unknown alien artifacts, just so that when the zerg attacks, they can team up with my disloyal son, take my fleet, attack char, de-infest kerrigan, and THEN kill her. Meanwhile, I will be trying to kill Findlay and Raynor, for they are criminals. Uh... WAT?
i think you mean Mengsk, and he didnt do shit.
Mengsk released Findlay to do all of the above. Findlay admits this in the final (helmet removed on char, of course!) cutscene where he "made a bad deal, Jimmy". That is Mengsk's xanatos gambit, and it doesn't make a bloody lick of sense. If Mengsk truly had that level of prediction, he would, I don't know, kill the plucky hero? Stop the zerg invasion? Not let his son lose the fleet in a hilarious repeat of an attack on char?
Take your pick.
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blizzard didn't even write the story of wol they just copied it.
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[B]
"lets take our helmets off on char!"
"yes, i too can breathe poisonous atmospheres!"
you can breath on CHAR... The first time Raynor goes there to look for Kerrigan he doesn't where a suit.
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On October 25 2010 02:23 MalVortex wrote:The SC2 campaign is basically a word for word description of Narm. So many horribad, facepalm inducing moments. "we'll take our people to HAVEN, its a fertile planet that nobody wants to go to cause its near the protoss! :D" "well, maybe you should make sure your people aren't infected" "NO THATS IMPOSSIBLE I AM OFFENDED AT THE THOUGHT" "er...ok" :one mission latter: "you know that haven planet, we can't seem to call them" "UNEXPECTED" I esp. like how if you side with the protoss in that mission, you can easily save more people than you would fighting the protoss, but everyone acts like you did some big bad thing and the doctor goes all insane. Uh, what? Even more perplexing, siding with the colonists seems to delete the virus, as they all live happily ever after (minus the burninated colonists to le mothership) :psyduck: "lets a-move char!" "oh god this is ending terribly! Just like last time!" "lets take our helmets off on char!" "yes, i too can breathe poisonous atmospheres!" Don't even get me started on how the real "tactical genius" of the show is the adjutant, which does everything for raynor. Or how raynor is a bipolar basket case who goes crazy anytime anyone mentions kerrigan. Basically, if there are characters talking in a cutscene, they are saying incredibly retarded, non-genre savy things. SC2's writing is so bad I can't help but feel the entire singleplayer campaign is a meta-troll on the community. Carrying a naked kerrigan out naked, on a volcanic, poisonous atmospheric planet? really?Of course, the worst of all if Findlay. What kind of a xanatos gambit is that? I'll release this dangerous criminal, so he can get close to Raynor, rebel against me, seize all these previously unknown alien artifacts, just so that when the zerg attacks, they can team up with my disloyal son, take my fleet, attack char, de-infest kerrigan, and THEN kill her. Meanwhile, I will be trying to kill Findlay and Raynor, for they are criminals. Uh... WAT? *sigh*
THIS :D It's so ridiculous it's funny.
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On October 24 2010 23:25 tacrats wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 23:21 MrLonely wrote:
Legitimate storymaking technique. Stephen King doesn't know how his stories will end either, and I consider him a pretty good writer. Stephen King is a good writer and can pull that off. If WoL was any indication (ex: magix saves kerrigan raynor carries her off into the sunset), blizz doesnt have good writers anymore. So the fact that they have no idea what they are doing is going to result in a terrible, terrible story.
Yeah, because that's the end of it.
Kerrigan is magically saved, and they go off to live on a farm, happily ever after.
It's not like she's the Chosen One who will stop the Xel'naga. It's not like she might have to voluntarily become the Queen of Blades again.
Yep, just a terrible, terrible story with a Hollywood happy ending.
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On October 25 2010 03:49 Deckkie wrote:Show nested quote +[B]
"lets take our helmets off on char!"
"yes, i too can breathe poisonous atmospheres!" you can breath on CHAR... The first time Raynor goes there to look for Kerrigan he doesn't where a suit.
Sort of. The official wiki has contradictory points on that. Given the level of ash prevalent in the atmosphere, any breathing would at best be constrained to constant hacking and coughing, not to mention the permanent damage that hot ash can do to lounges. There is also the point that entire sections of Char's surface become lava for long stretches of time, and the planet's surface can exceed 1k degrees Fahrenheit. It is described, quite literally, as a planet where the atmosphere burns. How there is still free oxygen on a planet without plant life to reconvert all that CO2 back into O2 we'll just ignore. That's a minor plot hole by comparison.
So yes, you might be able to breath it for a short duration, but you wouldn't just be having a conversation like nothings the matter. It would be a choking, coughing, blinding experience that would likely cause permanent damage in short order - you would NEVER remove those helmets in a combat environment, that's why you have, you know, radios.
As for kerrigan, being but naked in that environment would be a terrible idea. That background heat, lava floes, and ash could easily cause serious second and third degree burns by ambient heat transfer alone, not to mention the part where, you know, she can't breathe.
But sure, lets just take off our helmets, smoke a cigar, crack a grin, and relax on a planet called the embodiment of hell. why not.
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Oh great it's the "minor retcons are tantamount to infanticide" people. Shouldn't you be on the WoW forums complaining about who corrupted Sargeras?
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On October 25 2010 04:06 MalVortex wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 03:49 Deckkie wrote:[B]
"lets take our helmets off on char!"
"yes, i too can breathe poisonous atmospheres!" you can breath on CHAR... The first time Raynor goes there to look for Kerrigan he doesn't where a suit. Sort of. The official wiki has contradictory points on that. Given the level of ash prevalent in the atmosphere, any breathing would at best be constrained to constant hacking and coughing, not to mention the permanent damage that hot ash can do to lounges. There is also the point that entire sections of Char's surface become lava for long stretches of time, and the planet's surface can exceed 1k degrees Fahrenheit. It is described, quite literally, as a planet where the atmosphere burns. How there is still free oxygen on a planet without plant life to reconvert all that CO2 back into O2 we'll just ignore. That's a minor plot hole by comparison. So yes, you might be able to breath it for a short duration, but you wouldn't just be having a conversation like nothings the matter. It would be a choking, coughing, blinding experience that would likely cause permanent damage in short order - you would NEVER remove those helmets in a combat environment, that's why you have, you know, radios. But sure, lets just take off our helmets, smoke a cigar, crack a grin, and relax on a planet called the embodiment of hell. why not.
edit: sorry nvm. Just looked up the part. and Raynor doesnt wear a suit but he indeed wears a "rebreather" covering his nose and mouth
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On October 25 2010 04:27 kojinshugi wrote:
Oh great it's the "minor retcons are tantamount to infanticide" people. Shouldn't you be on the WoW forums complaining about who corrupted Sargeras?
Casting the Overmind as one of the good guys is hardly a minor retcon. The entire POINT of the Overmind was that it was supposed to be pure, consuming evil.
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On October 25 2010 03:50 labbe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 02:23 MalVortex wrote:The SC2 campaign is basically a word for word description of Narm. So many horribad, facepalm inducing moments. "we'll take our people to HAVEN, its a fertile planet that nobody wants to go to cause its near the protoss! :D" "well, maybe you should make sure your people aren't infected" "NO THATS IMPOSSIBLE I AM OFFENDED AT THE THOUGHT" "er...ok" :one mission latter: "you know that haven planet, we can't seem to call them" "UNEXPECTED" I esp. like how if you side with the protoss in that mission, you can easily save more people than you would fighting the protoss, but everyone acts like you did some big bad thing and the doctor goes all insane. Uh, what? Even more perplexing, siding with the colonists seems to delete the virus, as they all live happily ever after (minus the burninated colonists to le mothership) :psyduck: "lets a-move char!" "oh god this is ending terribly! Just like last time!" "lets take our helmets off on char!" "yes, i too can breathe poisonous atmospheres!" Don't even get me started on how the real "tactical genius" of the show is the adjutant, which does everything for raynor. Or how raynor is a bipolar basket case who goes crazy anytime anyone mentions kerrigan. Basically, if there are characters talking in a cutscene, they are saying incredibly retarded, non-genre savy things. SC2's writing is so bad I can't help but feel the entire singleplayer campaign is a meta-troll on the community. Carrying a naked kerrigan out naked, on a volcanic, poisonous atmospheric planet? really?Of course, the worst of all if Findlay. What kind of a xanatos gambit is that? I'll release this dangerous criminal, so he can get close to Raynor, rebel against me, seize all these previously unknown alien artifacts, just so that when the zerg attacks, they can team up with my disloyal son, take my fleet, attack char, de-infest kerrigan, and THEN kill her. Meanwhile, I will be trying to kill Findlay and Raynor, for they are criminals. Uh... WAT? *sigh* THIS :D It's so ridiculous it's funny.
And true, and how.
Really the Sc2 story felt so damn lackluster. It really felt half baked, I'm not sure where to begin.
The whole thing of Wings of Liberty felt like watching a 6/10 summer action movie, entertaining but with nothing to take from it at all.
Hopefully Blizzard reads all these cries and actually works up a story that lives up to Sc1 and BW.
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No idea where you haters are coming from. I really liked the SP and everyone else I know in RL also liked the SP.
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On October 25 2010 05:21 McMonty wrote:
No idea where you haters are coming from. I really liked the SP and everyone else I know in RL also liked the SP.
I will second that. I loved the SP and I don't know anyone who disliked it.
The story will be fine, when is the last time Blizzard has made a bad game? It will just be as good as everything else they have put out.
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Wings of Liberty is writing what an abortion is to a newborn baby.
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Protoss campaigns are the best, because they are so dark and intelligent. I cant wait to get finally my hands on the LotV expansion
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It might have been better for them to do 90 missions over the three "games" but instead of 30/30/30, they could have done 10/10/10, 10/10/10, 10/10/10.
Why? Allows more flexibility. Have a Zerg part where you invade, a terran part where you get the artifact, and a protoss part that details zeratuls travels and the prophecy, actually doing them justice. You could also get to meet Selendis, Artanis etc instead of just having them mentioned in passing, basically. Who was the HT that helped Zeratul? Who was the Void ray hero? It just doesnt seem good story telling: I really didnt care when any of those heroes died cause I never even "knew" them. Compare that to Fenix...
This lets you flesh out all the characters better instead of just talking to Jimmy and Tychus all the time. Kerrigan and Mengsk dont become distant villains, Zeratul and the protoss dont become virtual non-entities and you can alternate between the various critical events more smoothly (instead of introducing stupid things like the ihan crystal, and being forced to watch the Zerg on TV).
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On October 24 2010 23:16 Bentie wrote:
I would like to see more hybrids, Wings on Liberty only touched on them so hopefully we get a lot more on them in Hears of the Swarm, maybe a new mini-race like those fish things in Frozen Throne? I hope so.
You mean..Naga?
I dont think that would work on SC, i dont even know if they have any lore to pull shit out from
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I think they were going to do the whole "3 races teaming up against the Xel Naga" thing, but are changing their minds after fan backlash.
I hope, anyway.
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i want the expansions out so they can actually balance the game and remove this permanent flux we're lining up for
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This:
On October 25 2010 06:59 TedJustice wrote:
I think they were going to do the whole "3 races teaming up against the Xel Naga" thing, but are changing their minds after fan backlash.
I hope, anyway.
This:
On October 25 2010 07:09 QkDown wrote:
i want the expansions out so they can actually balance the game and remove this permanent flux we're lining up for
And especially this:
On October 25 2010 06:53 Knee_of_Justice wrote:
It might have been better for them to do 90 missions over the three "games" but instead of 30/30/30, they could have done 10/10/10, 10/10/10, 10/10/10.
Why? Allows more flexibility. Have a Zerg part where you invade, a terran part where you get the artifact, and a protoss part that details zeratuls travels and the prophecy, actually doing them justice. You could also get to meet Selendis, Artanis etc instead of just having them mentioned in passing, basically. Who was the HT that helped Zeratul? Who was the Void ray hero? It just doesnt seem good story telling: I really didnt care when any of those heroes died cause I never even "knew" them. Compare that to Fenix...
This lets you flesh out all the characters better instead of just talking to Jimmy and Tychus all the time. Kerrigan and Mengsk dont become distant villains, Zeratul and the protoss dont become virtual non-entities and you can alternate between the various critical events more smoothly (instead of introducing stupid things like the ihan crystal, and being forced to watch the Zerg on TV).
Happy to see im not alone.10/10/10 for campaign and fast expansions =,so true balancing can begin - 3 thumbs up to those ideas.
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[B]A cow level
This would be nice
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I want an April fools joke like the Terra-tron one, it will be ZERGER! Whole base morphs into a lurker "You wanted lurkers, you got lurkers!" and has 100 range with HUGE splash.
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On October 25 2010 00:21 Polydamas wrote:
I think SC2 story was made for an entirely different audience than SC BW story. Popular/teenage culture has changed a lot in all these years. Things have gotten really shallow. Prime example to me is how Raynor and Kerrigan suddenly have a romantic relationship. Did they suddenly fall in love somewhere between BW and SC2? Raynor and Kerrigan didn't even know each other during the SC storyline. Then in BW she turned zerg and Raynor said he wanted to kill her.
You have CLEARLY never played BW SP.
That, or I just got trolled.
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April fools is going to be return of reapers, with no research required for booster packs and no tech lab required for training.
Also, barracks no longer requires supply depot, and actually gives 5 supply.
And queens are light
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What did you guys expect? This is a pew pew pew good > bad story. I got a kick-ass multiplayer, an enjoyable single player, and awesome cinematics to boot. Yeah, the story wasn't all that coherent but if we stop bitching about it it'll be that much better.
Raynor ties up his past and saves Kerrigan. That's step 1.
If everyone would stop shitting on SC2 they would realize that that's not so bad of a first step. For all we know Raynor and his missions have been nothing more than a pawn making an opening move on a chess board. Mengsk might have planned for this all along with Tycus and even his son as mere feints.
In the Dominion's eyes they now hold Xel Naga artifacts and the Queen of Blades is no more. What that means for everyone else and the Zerg is unknown.
Durand plays a role in the Dominion's research for his own purposes while the Protoss are just waiting and preparing for something far greater. In a way everyone is still preparing in their own way for what is about to come.
Que part 2 as everyone except for Raynor seems to know a lot more than what they are letting on. That's why Raynor is a pawn in their plans. Raynor's fine with that though because he got to save his girl and will right every wrong one way or another.
There! That wasn't so bad was it? 
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On October 25 2010 08:21 Kimaker wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 00:21 Polydamas wrote:
I think SC2 story was made for an entirely different audience than SC BW story. Popular/teenage culture has changed a lot in all these years. Things have gotten really shallow. Prime example to me is how Raynor and Kerrigan suddenly have a romantic relationship. Did they suddenly fall in love somewhere between BW and SC2? Raynor and Kerrigan didn't even know each other during the SC storyline. Then in BW she turned zerg and Raynor said he wanted to kill her.
You have CLEARLY never played BW SP. That, or I just got trolled.
They definitely knew each other.
But I see his point. Raynor made one cheeky comment about her (in his head), and suddenly they were romantically involved?
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On October 24 2010 23:30 MrLonely wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 23:25 tacrats wrote:On October 24 2010 23:21 MrLonely wrote:
Legitimate storymaking technique. Stephen King doesn't know how his stories will end either, and I consider him a pretty good writer. Stephen King is a good writer and can pull that off. If WoL was any indication (ex: magix saves kerrigan raynor carries her off into the sunset), blizz doesnt have good writers anymore. So the fact that they have no idea what they are doing is going to result in a terrible, terrible story. Might be true, but I think the story is terrible because the writers are terrible, not because they don't know how it will end.
good argument.
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Most of US TV series don't know how it is going to end either, and that industry has survive for ages.
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On October 25 2010 09:41 TedJustice wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 08:21 Kimaker wrote:On October 25 2010 00:21 Polydamas wrote:
I think SC2 story was made for an entirely different audience than SC BW story. Popular/teenage culture has changed a lot in all these years. Things have gotten really shallow. Prime example to me is how Raynor and Kerrigan suddenly have a romantic relationship. Did they suddenly fall in love somewhere between BW and SC2? Raynor and Kerrigan didn't even know each other during the SC storyline. Then in BW she turned zerg and Raynor said he wanted to kill her.
You have CLEARLY never played BW SP. That, or I just got trolled. They definitely knew each other. But I see his point. Raynor made one cheeky comment about her (in his head), and suddenly they were romantically involved?
Exactly, lol.
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On October 25 2010 02:12 FunnelC4kes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 23:21 MrLonely wrote:
Legitimate storymaking technique. Stephen King doesn't know how his stories will end either, and I consider him a pretty good writer. That's probably why most of Steven Kings endings are crap. The best television series are developed by story-boarding the whole season. They plan the whole story arch, then go back and write individual episodes. Look at HBO's Rome, Showtime's Dexter, and The first season of Heroes (after 1st season they made it up as they went along). I sincerely hope that they do this with the expansions before they put too much effort into production, otherwise the third expo will have a really contrived story-line.
Yes, entire seasons are planned out, but the story spanning MULTIPLE seasons usually is not. As you pointed out, Heroes is a prime example of this.
So in that sense, each expansion/release of SC2 is like a season. Ever notice how so many TV shows end with unresolved story threads? It's for that reason: to keep audiences' interest and thus creating demand for more seasons.
When Chuck was in danger of being cancelled by NBC, they actually added a cliffhanger season finale on purpose, basically as a "fuck you" to NBC if they dared to cancel the show.
EDIT: Though on that note, I'm not saying that method of 'storytelling' breeds good, epic stories. But it's pretty much the norm. If you expected them to come up with the plot of all three expansions before releasing SC2, we probably wouldn't be playing SC2 until next year if not longer. Fuck that imo.
Not to mention even if they came up with a full story, it is BOUND TO CHANGE. People seem to have this notion that master storytellers just sit down and write a masterpiece on the first try. They have obviously never tried creative writing themselves to any serious degree. Writing is about ITERATION and your story/structure can change significantly through revisions.
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Bad analogies:
On October 24 2010 23:21 MrLonely wrote:
Legitimate storymaking technique. Stephen King doesn't know how his stories will end either, and I consider him a pretty good writer.
On October 24 2010 23:22 Theston wrote:
Of course they don't.
Do you think J.K. Rowling knew how her seventh book ended when she wrote the first?
Not knowing how the story will end is not the same as not knowing exactly what's going to happen in the last chapter/book/movie.
When you read the very first chapter of Harry Potter you immediately know + Show Spoiler +Voldemort is going to return and Harry's going to finish him off. the protagonists, for lack of a better word, defeating Randall Flagg
The problem here is no one can really predict how the SC story is going to end. Are they going to team up and fight the Dark Voice? Is it going to be the Xel'Naga? Or is there going to be a conflict killer hijacking when someone else takes over Kerrigan's position of leading the Swarm and then turn into the new badass main villain? Plus WoL was really, really awful at setting up the plot, not to mention alienating fans of SC-BW, that many people don't even really care anymore.
As for the mentions to current television, bad writers making up crap on the fly is exactly the difference between Lost post season 2, 24 post season 1, etc., and the likes of Firefly, Mad Men, etc. This is an advanced technique reserved for good writers, not for the 5th grade creative writing class Blizzard seems to have hired.
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On October 25 2010 10:25 Krigwin wrote:As for the mentions to current television, bad writers making up crap on the fly is exactly the difference between Lost post season 2, 24 post season 1, etc., and the likes of Firefly, Mad Men, etc. This is an advanced technique reserved for good writers, not for the 5th grade creative writing class Blizzard seems to have hired.
Like I said in my last past, it's not some 'advanced technique,' it's the way writing works. Now, yes some people are better than others. But if the story of HotS/LotV are as mediocre as WoL's, it's because of the '5th grade writing class' NOT because they didn't write the story of all 3 games from the beginning.
To be honest that would probably make things worse, as they would be trying to constrain themselves to something that should've gone through many iterations.
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I don't see why everyone thinks WoL was so horrible story wise. Sure, it was cliche and silly at instances, and somewhat predictable, but it was miles ahead of the SP of WC3 RoC. I'm not that disappointed tbh.
Also, i wouldn't look too much into the fact that they don't know how the story will end. It's not that big of a deal.
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Oh how wonderful it must be to have so much free time that you could launch a full blown campagin against a game about space marines shooting aliens! Just think of the possibilities! No friends, no girls, no family, no job, no other hobbies, no obligations, no life... Freedom!
On October 25 2010 06:59 TedJustice wrote:
I think they were going to do the whole "3 races teaming up against the Xel Naga" thing, but are changing their minds after fan backlash.
I hope, anyway.
This kind of shit can be boiled down to "I'm a concieted self important hater who knows nothing about a creative process and think that I know where the story will and should go better than the story tellers".
Man, I see people like you getting kicked out of pen and paper RPG sessions all the time, what makes you think you'll have a shot at influencing a massive developer like Blizzard?
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While I don't hate WoL's story, like you said it was cliche and silly a lot of times. It did it's job and I played through the whole thing, mostly cause of good gameplay to be honest.
On the other hand in Brood War I played through it for the story despite its shitty and boring singleplayer gameplay (with the exception of a few missions.) If WoL had the narrative of BW, I think it would be a masterpiece in gaming. Instead it's more like a pretty good summer flick.
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Initially I was disappointed with the way the Wings of Liberty campaign ended. I've found though, that if you think about it, it seems like the next two games will be forced into a more serious and interesting storyline. Here are my reasons for why:
1. The "hero rescuing the woman and riding into the sunset" cliche has happened, and its only at 1/3rd of the way through the complete story. Since this has happened, it seems likely that the overall series will have an ending that does NOT involve this kind of plot element.
2. Heart of the Swarm is (mostly) a Zerg campaign. This implies that Kerrigan will either revert to Zerg or will still have control over the swarm somehow, which could mean interesting things, possibly even bringing back Kerrigan's classic bad ass attitude and maybe even more epic betrayals than those from Brood War. To me, it seems unlikely that they would even attempt to make a StarCraft game without Kerrigan playing this role.
3. The Terran campaign is the only one focusing on humans. I'm of the belief that the only reason it was possible to make the Terran campaign cheesy in a lot of respects was due to the fact that the story was about humans. Zerg and the Protoss characters can't be anything but serious, really, if you think about it. So unless characters like Stetman are in the game still, I think it will be much more interesting. Stetman and the wrench-armed guy don't really fit in among a cast of characters such as DuGalle, Stukov, Edmund Duke, Samir Duran, Mengsk, and other StarCraft classics.
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Initially I was disappointed with the way the Wings of Liberty campaign ended. I've found though, that if you think about it, it seems like the next two games will be forced into a more serious and interesting storyline. Here are my reasons for why:
1. The "hero rescuing the woman and riding into the sunset" cliche has happened, and its only at 1/3rd of the way through the complete story. Since this has happened, it seems likely that the overall series will have an ending that does NOT involve this kind of plot element.
2. Heart of the Swarm is (mostly) a Zerg campaign. This implies that Kerrigan will either revert to Zerg or will still have control over the swarm somehow, which could mean interesting things, possibly even bringing back Kerrigan's classic bad ass attitude and maybe even more epic betrayals than those from Brood War. To me, it seems unlikely that they would even attempt to make a StarCraft game without Kerrigan playing this role.
3. The Terran campaign is the only one focusing on humans. I'm of the belief that the only reason it was possible to make the Terran campaign cheesy in a lot of respects was due to the fact that the story was about humans. Zerg and the Protoss characters can't be anything but serious, really, if you think about it. So unless characters like Stetman are in the game still, I think it will be much more interesting. Stetman and the wrench-armed guy don't really fit in among a cast of characters such as DuGalle, Stukov, Edmund Duke, Samir Duran, Mengsk, and other StarCraft classics.
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Tolkein didn't know how LotR was gonna end. He set it down for like years. I mean I'm sure he knew the ring was gonna get blown but whatever.
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well if you hate raynor for saving kerrigan, start thinking he only did it for zeratul, since otherwise the system they life in will collapse. I like playing mostly black and whiteish, with no grey zones, so either badass or the paladin killing everything evil from her point of view.
Raynor is more of the greyish hero, making strange allys just to save some people. He did that in SC and BW and now in sc2. Since we all knew it was about raynor we all knew how it would turn out, atleast the people who played the first games and actually listened to the story and didn't clicked start before the first person could open its mouth. (ai talked first to you /ho ).
So WoL is mostly sc bw single player fan service and imo its a good fan service, since i like it as much as i liked the sc. I mean mar sara mk2 with spreading infection defending till help arrives. Fangasm <3 oh and so much battlecruiser scenes <3.
I personally like the story and sub storys. Feels scish, while i think wow doesn't feel warcraftish, but thats prolly because they changed the story the rts game told, which i totally hate, changing the story afterwards.
PS: if you want deep storys read books :x or play DSA :p
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The WoL campaign is good compare to the quality of others at this gen, but if you compare it with BW, WoL sucks quite a bit.
But I wouldnt mind if HotS campaign turn out to be bad. I bough SC2 80% for its multiplayer, the campaign for me is just a plus. And Tychus is 90% wasnt dead, one of the voice actor kind of spoiled it when they had a panel with Day9.
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On October 25 2010 04:56 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 04:27 kojinshugi wrote:
Oh great it's the "minor retcons are tantamount to infanticide" people. Shouldn't you be on the WoW forums complaining about who corrupted Sargeras? Casting the Overmind as one of the good guys is hardly a minor retcon. The entire POINT of the Overmind was that it was supposed to be pure, consuming evil.
What?
Maybe I'm not understanding the word retcon correctly, but revealing something about a character that wasn't previously known is hardly "altering" facts previously established. We THOUGHT he was bad, and we were wrong. That isn't rewriting, that's plot development.
And how do you know what he was "supposed" to be? I didn't think the WoL story was amazing, but I thought what they revealed in terms of the Overmind being controlled and giving control of the swarm to Kerrigan was actually the most interesting part of the entire campaign.
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On October 25 2010 13:16 Sniffy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 04:56 Acritter wrote:On October 25 2010 04:27 kojinshugi wrote:
Oh great it's the "minor retcons are tantamount to infanticide" people. Shouldn't you be on the WoW forums complaining about who corrupted Sargeras? Casting the Overmind as one of the good guys is hardly a minor retcon. The entire POINT of the Overmind was that it was supposed to be pure, consuming evil. What? Maybe I'm not understanding the word retcon correctly, but revealing something about a character that wasn't previously known is hardly "altering" facts previously established. We THOUGHT he was bad, and we were wrong. That isn't rewriting, that's plot development. And how do you know what he was "supposed" to be? I didn't think the WoL story was amazing, but I thought what they revealed in terms of the Overmind being controlled and giving control of the swarm to Kerrigan was actually the most interesting part of the entire campaign.
From sclegacy.com:
The Xel'Naga, having kept a constant watch on the Overmind, were horrified to find that it had actually severed their psychic link, effectively hiding itself from their view. With its need to consume driving its minions into a lustful frenzy, the Overmind launched the now space-faring Zerg swarms at the unsuspecting Xel'Naga. The ancient race did what they could to stem the tide of the ever-advancing Zerg onslaught, but in the end their efforts were in vain. Wave after wave of Zerg swarms hammered the reinforced hulls of the Xel'Naga's ships with no signs of abatement. Within only a few hours the Zerg overran the defenses of their creators and laid waste to the Xel'Naga fleet.
Later.
OVERMIND
Arise, my daughter. Arise... Kerrigan.
KERRIGAN
By your will, father, I live to serve... Let all who oppose the Overmind feel the wrath of the Swarm.
OVERMIND
Well done, Cerebrate! What I have wrought this day shall be the undoing of my enemies! Let not a Terran survive...
The Xel'Naga controlled the overmind? Then how did he overturn them?
The overmind had no free will? Then how did he decide to overturn them and to create Kerrigan?
Further, there is no word about the Xel'Naga in the last quote.
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On October 25 2010 01:27 KiLL_ORdeR wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Heart of the Swarm = Valerian and Raynor now turn on Arcturus, and launch a direct assault on the Dominion, using the resources under Valerian's control, and Raynor's tactician abilities.
When it becomes apparent that Raynor and Valerian will win, Arcturus pulls his ace in the hole, which is an overmind created by the Dominion, and uses that to control the Zerg and destroy Valerian/Raynor.
Obviously, this plan backfires horribly, as the Zerg can't be controlled by humans (same shit happens in the original SC) and they turn around and annihilate the Dominion.
Now Raynor and Valerian run for their lives, and seek the help of Zeratul and his allies.
Meanwhile, the Zerg are drawn by the Taldarim, obliterate them, but infest those with high psyionic potential, creating pseudo-hybrids that are not as powerful as the original ones, and then launch their assault on Valerian/Raynor/Zeratul, since they are the last true force in the known Universe able to oppose them. The story ends as the Zerg prep for the final battle.
Legacy of the Void = Raynor/Valerian/Zeratul are chilling at the running through the Sector, attempting to gather what forces they can, while avoiding the inevitable final conflict with the Zerg swarm.
They end up on some planet, and uncover a giant temple, once used by the Xel'Naga. Via artifacts and ancient scriptures with high psyionic residue, he is able to literally see the entire history of the Protoss race, from the viewpoint of the Xel'Naga.
Turns out, that the tablet wasn't actually a history, but a prediction that seems to be 100% accurate, including the final confrontation with the Zerg, Kerrigan's shenanigans, and Zeratul's last moments being with two humans.
Then, the "spirit" of a Xel'Naga prophet appears (it's just a really high-tech hologram, far beyond any technology any race possesses. It basically apologizes to Zeratul for creating the Protoss, the Zerg, and all of the pain that they put the two races through. It then tells Zeratul that the visions he saw in WoL were accurate, but also acted on his own view of reality.
Because of this, he perceived the Hybrids in a form completely different from their true form. The prophet then tells him that the Xel'Naga actually created the hybrids by combining the Zerg and Protoss and manipulating their shit, and the end result was standing with him: Oh shit, The Terran!
(should also mention here that Zeratul realizes this is the truth, due to their latent psyionic potential. The prophet tells him that the Terran haven't figured out how to "awaken their potential")
Zeratul is then faced with a decision to either annihilate his allies in the face of his own annihilation, to preemptively destroy the people who will one day end his race. or use their help, and destroy. Because Zeratul trusts Raynor, he decides to preserve the alliance yada yada. the prophet then tells him he made the right choice because the hybrids are the only perfect race and will save the universe. He then awakens a massive ancient Xel'Naga guardian armyand gives control to Kerrigan (yes I didn't forget about her.)
This whole time, Kerrigan has been recovering from her infestation, while having vivid dreams of what is yet to come. Apparently, her powers were semi awakened due to her infestation, and she is the only one able to control the Xel'Naga army. They take the Xel'Naga army, and attack the Zerg, totally annihilating what appears to be the entire race. A final battle happens, epic cinematics, and in the end, we see Zeratul leading the charge against the Zerg. they destroy the final Overmind, the bloodthirsty one created by Arcturus, the Zerg is destroyed.
In the final Cinematic, we see Zeratul peacing out in his ship, gravely wounded, and carrying something in a satchel. the whole time we hear a conversation that Zeratul had with the Overmind before killing it. The Overmind essentially begs Zeratul to save it's race, and that it wasn't their fault yada yada. the final scene, Zeratul reveals what was in the satchel, and it is a single egg of the Overmind, the last existing piece of the entire Zerg race. then it blacks out (with a little "see you in 12 years" caption for shits and giggles)
BOOM, HEADSHOT. Sorry Blizzard, I think I spoiled.
You just made my day. Just picturing Zeratul "peacing" out. Leaning back on his chair in the most relaxed position.
Also this seems pretty viable
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 25 2010 13:33 Arby3k wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 01:27 KiLL_ORdeR wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Heart of the Swarm = Valerian and Raynor now turn on Arcturus, and launch a direct assault on the Dominion, using the resources under Valerian's control, and Raynor's tactician abilities.
When it becomes apparent that Raynor and Valerian will win, Arcturus pulls his ace in the hole, which is an overmind created by the Dominion, and uses that to control the Zerg and destroy Valerian/Raynor.
Obviously, this plan backfires horribly, as the Zerg can't be controlled by humans (same shit happens in the original SC) and they turn around and annihilate the Dominion.
Now Raynor and Valerian run for their lives, and seek the help of Zeratul and his allies.
Meanwhile, the Zerg are drawn by the Taldarim, obliterate them, but infest those with high psyionic potential, creating pseudo-hybrids that are not as powerful as the original ones, and then launch their assault on Valerian/Raynor/Zeratul, since they are the last true force in the known Universe able to oppose them. The story ends as the Zerg prep for the final battle.
Legacy of the Void = Raynor/Valerian/Zeratul are chilling at the running through the Sector, attempting to gather what forces they can, while avoiding the inevitable final conflict with the Zerg swarm.
They end up on some planet, and uncover a giant temple, once used by the Xel'Naga. Via artifacts and ancient scriptures with high psyionic residue, he is able to literally see the entire history of the Protoss race, from the viewpoint of the Xel'Naga.
Turns out, that the tablet wasn't actually a history, but a prediction that seems to be 100% accurate, including the final confrontation with the Zerg, Kerrigan's shenanigans, and Zeratul's last moments being with two humans.
Then, the "spirit" of a Xel'Naga prophet appears (it's just a really high-tech hologram, far beyond any technology any race possesses. It basically apologizes to Zeratul for creating the Protoss, the Zerg, and all of the pain that they put the two races through. It then tells Zeratul that the visions he saw in WoL were accurate, but also acted on his own view of reality.
Because of this, he perceived the Hybrids in a form completely different from their true form. The prophet then tells him that the Xel'Naga actually created the hybrids by combining the Zerg and Protoss and manipulating their shit, and the end result was standing with him: Oh shit, The Terran!
(should also mention here that Zeratul realizes this is the truth, due to their latent psyionic potential. The prophet tells him that the Terran haven't figured out how to "awaken their potential")
Zeratul is then faced with a decision to either annihilate his allies in the face of his own annihilation, to preemptively destroy the people who will one day end his race. or use their help, and destroy. Because Zeratul trusts Raynor, he decides to preserve the alliance yada yada. the prophet then tells him he made the right choice because the hybrids are the only perfect race and will save the universe. He then awakens a massive ancient Xel'Naga guardian armyand gives control to Kerrigan (yes I didn't forget about her.)
This whole time, Kerrigan has been recovering from her infestation, while having vivid dreams of what is yet to come. Apparently, her powers were semi awakened due to her infestation, and she is the only one able to control the Xel'Naga army. They take the Xel'Naga army, and attack the Zerg, totally annihilating what appears to be the entire race. A final battle happens, epic cinematics, and in the end, we see Zeratul leading the charge against the Zerg. they destroy the final Overmind, the bloodthirsty one created by Arcturus, the Zerg is destroyed.
In the final Cinematic, we see Zeratul peacing out in his ship, gravely wounded, and carrying something in a satchel. the whole time we hear a conversation that Zeratul had with the Overmind before killing it. The Overmind essentially begs Zeratul to save it's race, and that it wasn't their fault yada yada. the final scene, Zeratul reveals what was in the satchel, and it is a single egg of the Overmind, the last existing piece of the entire Zerg race. then it blacks out (with a little "see you in 12 years" caption for shits and giggles)
BOOM, HEADSHOT. Sorry Blizzard, I think I spoiled.
You just made my day. Just picturing Zeratul "peacing" out. Leaning back on his chair in the most relaxed position. Also this seems pretty viable
A better ending would be Raynor leading the charge against the Zerg and destroys the final overmind and the last scene is Kerrigan carrying raynor into the sunset. or maybe a close-up shot of a single surviving drone that has a smirk on its face
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On October 25 2010 12:27 Caphe wrote:
The WoL campaign is good compare to the quality of others at this gen, but if you compare it with BW, WoL sucks quite a bit.
But I wouldnt mind if HotS campaign turn out to be bad. I bough SC2 80% for its multiplayer, the campaign for me is just a plus. And Tychus is 90% wasnt dead, one of the voice actor kind of spoiled it when they had a panel with Day9.
Compared to the quality of others this gen? What others? What games are we talking about here? RTS games? Dawn of War II and Chaos Rising both had better writing. Not fantastic, but serviceable. Other PC games? Even Dragon Age had better writing, and Dragon Age's writing was pretty awful. Other games of this gen period? The Witcher had better writing. Fallout New Vegas has better writing. Even Advance Wars: Days of Ruin, a cartoony turn-based strategy game for the DS, had better writing.
I understand the quality of writing in video games have gone down terribly since the Planescape Torment and Fallout days, but there is never an excuse for a game filled to the brim with action movie cliches and Michael Bay lines.
On October 25 2010 12:21 FeyFey wrote:
So WoL is mostly sc bw single player fan service and imo its a good fan service, since i like it as much as i liked the sc. I mean mar sara mk2 with spreading infection defending till help arrives. Fangasm <3 oh and so much battlecruiser scenes <3.
I personally like the story and sub storys. Feels scish, while i think wow doesn't feel warcraftish, but thats prolly because they changed the story the rts game told, which i totally hate, changing the story afterwards.
PS: if you want deep storys read books :x or play DSA :p
No, WoL is a stain on the name of Starcraft where the story is concerned.
Real fanservice to SC-BW fans would be something like this: Tychus and Raynor team up with Zeratul and find a Xel-Naga magicky device that resurrects Fenix and Tassadar, they then kill Kerrigan and Mengsk. The rest of the campaign consists of the gang drinking beer and riding around on vultures in the desert playing vulture tag.
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I don't have a date, but it's more ambitious, it's bigger than what Warcraft: The Frozen Throne was to Reign of Chaos and I don't anticipate it being done in that one year time frame."
This makes me giddy with excitement! Frozen throne introduced so much awesome to wc3, if hots is gonna be even more of an improvement...
I shudder to think of the dehydration ill experience from all the cumming ill do when they actually announce whats up
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I don't really understand all the hate on the singleplayer honestly. The storyline has to flow with the gameplay, which personally I thought they did very well. The point-click interface was simple, easy, and efficient. And I don't really understand why people are so against all the action-movie cliches. I thought it was fun.
I will say that I thought the plot in SC1 flowed much better and more tended to happen plotwise in each mission. Five pieces of artifact is a bit much.
As far as "making it up as they go," that's probably only partially true. They probably do have things they want to do, and things they aren't sure about. It probably depends heavily on how it will interact with the gameplay.
And yea, retconning the Overmind to a good guy is a retcon. It's a well handled retcon, but I would hope Blizzard would have learned something about retconning by now lol. Personally I always thought the Overmind was a good guy. He's just trying to consume all life into the all-empowering harmony of the swarm. What's wrong with that?
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Personally I think the overall story for WoL was pretty good, they only messed up the ending. Who here can say that they disliked the story before seeing that awful ending? I sure don't, I think that the story was amazing before the ending ruining it.
However I do hope they situation will be different in the future expansions. I trust Chris Metzen will make the final ending amazing.
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i think they have some sort of clue how story ends but a lot of details are not settled. i do not anticipate us getting a sequel expansion in a while though. and i'm talking 2-3 years.
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Watching the story panel, it's funny to see how offended sigaty gets at moments. I feel like he read one or two of the threads on TL and was none to pleased. Perfectly reasonable they don't know how where they are going to end this story.
edit:
Probably want to tie the units to the new expos to force the competitive players to buy the games. Hell to force people to buy it to play with their friends.
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What I don't get is how the changes to multiplayer are going to be implemented.
Will people who didn't buy HotS be stuck in a SC/BW-type situation where they're playing with only people who didn't buy HotS? When LotV comes out will there be like 6 different servers for variations of purchases? Will they just patch the units in for everyone, so buying HotS will just be for the campaign? Why wait until then to release the changes, then?
Also, I'm very curious as to how they're going to explain the new units lore-wise. Why couldn't we use X unit before?
edit: lotv not lofv
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On October 25 2010 15:29 .Aar wrote:
Also, I'm very curious as to how they're going to explain the new units lore-wise. Why couldn't we use X unit before?
edit: lotv not lofv
"The Zerg have since mutated more"
"New Terran Technology"
"Ancient lost technology of the Protoss"
Would be easy
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The story for WoL sucked, but the single player campaign doesn't. The gameplay and the story were two completely separate things, so I don't see how you can bash "the campaign" in its entirety. The game design for the single player were fantastic, even on the second playthrough, where I just skipped all the cinematics. The missions were varied and interesting.
Second of all, the story for SC and SC:BW doesn't suck at all. It's far better than WoL's, and holds its own against the storylines of most top tier sci-fi games nowadays.
SC and BW's storylines were basically political dramas about interstellar power struggles. The Terrans were all rednecks, their technology was crude, and they were the new kids on the block trying to hold their own against two new and powerful races while fighting amongst each other. All the motives behind the storylines were pretty down to earth, namely greed and conquest. BW kicked it up a notch with Kerrigan playing everyone against each other and doing some epic backstabbing. Her victory at the end of the BW campaign neatly tied all the events together. The storyline is comparable (though not as deep) to Frank Herbert's Dune.
WoL killed the SC storyline by removing all the politics, making it some kind of bogus space romance, at the same time working in every single cliche ever invented in sci-fi/fantasy. There was no more intrigue. Everyone was all about irrational honor and sacrifice.
The weakest link in the WoL storyline was probably when Kerrigan was revealed to no longer be the queen bitch of the universe. She was pretty much the biggest (and only) threat and the raison d'etre for the entire SC storyline up to that point, and Blizzard just snuffed it out in favor of some bullshit prophecy story out of the blue. That was what really killed what could potentially have been an epic climax.
How WoL's storyline should have gone: Raynor's running around fighting Zerg and Mengsk, Kerrigan's the queen bitch of the universe, and at the end of the campaign Raynor successfully takes down Mengsk, but Kerrigan grows even more powerful than before. The Xel'Naga are due to return and are potentially the only hope in taking down Kerrigan. HotS can then carry on by showing Zerg's perspective during the same time period, with Kerrigan roflstomping Protoss and Terran in half the missions and in the other half she can be battling protoss/zerg hybrid and trying to figure out how much of a threat the Xel'Naga are to her.
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SPOILERS IN THIS POST
I still can't beleive they did what they did at the end of this game- why not wait until the end of the third chapter?
The new bad guy is poorly fleshed out, romance is now... well kaput because - how boring, it's actually going to occur. She was the best bad guy in a long time in a game and they neutered her in round 1? what? I'm overall surprised.
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They don't have the whole story, they do however know pretty much what they want to do happen.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
WoL Kerrigan is an affront to Kerrigans all across the world. From a manipulative bitch she turned to a "I will kill everyone because I am evil" generic kind of villain. She completely lost her character. Then Raynor who swore to murder her suddenly enjoys carrying her naked in the sunset. Not that I wouldn't enjoy carrying a naked prettie, but that hardly makes sense when she just killed everyone you ever loved.
Actually, I don't understand why that happened, Kerrigan repeatedly scored as the most charismatic female character in games, if anything, Blizzard should have dropped all other character's personalities, but not her. Dumbing her down was the most stupid decision to take since she was kinda iconic. The same thing about resurrecting Tassadar (WTF, he died a glorious death, I WANT HIM TO STAY DEAD BLIZZARD). Next watch Fenix being resurrected along with DuGalle and Stukov. Oh and Aldaris too, I loved the fucker's voice acting. And last, but not least, enjoy the return of the not-so-brave-but-fucking-awesome General Edmund Duke.
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On October 24 2010 23:34 tacrats wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 23:31 Mothxal wrote:On October 24 2010 23:25 tacrats wrote:On October 24 2010 23:21 MrLonely wrote:
Legitimate storymaking technique. Stephen King doesn't know how his stories will end either, and I consider him a pretty good writer. Stephen King is a good writer and can pull that off. If WoL was any indication (ex: magix saves kerrigan raynor carries her off into the sunset), blizz doesnt have good writers anymore. So the fact that they have no idea what they are doing is going to result in a terrible, terrible story. Just because you disliked the single-player, don't pretend the rest of the world agrees. Hardly any writers know how a story will end. In fact, knowing often makes for a worse story, since then the story can be somewhat artificial and drawn out, since the pacing might not be accounted for in the original idea. any self-respecting individual would agree sc2 SP sucked. User was warned for this post
I enjoyed the Wings of Liberty singleplayer and i trust Blizzard will create a good story for the two expansions, i don't know what people have against the Single Player-campaign but it was entertaining in my opinion. Of course there was a couple of bad parts but the game can't be 100% perfect.
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I loved the ending to WoL. Sure, it's not in tune with the normal "everything fucking sucks and everyone dies" mentality of depression that it normally follows. But goddamnit, it's about time Raynor finally had his luck change. Terran are always torn apart by corruption, subterfuge, and natural human tendencies. But following the idealistic rebel gave it an opportunity to not completely suck ass.
Seriously. I loved the slightly hammy results. It's more Firefly than Brood War. But Firefly was a goddamn astounding show.
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On October 25 2010 04:06 MalVortex wrote:
Sort of. The official wiki has contradictory points on that. Given the level of ash prevalent in the atmosphere, any breathing would at best be constrained to constant hacking and coughing, not to mention the permanent damage that hot ash can do to lounges.
I'd hate for my lounge to get covered in hot ash - so expensive!
But seriously - I actually enjoyed the SC2 single player story. Sure it was somewhat predictable, but come on - seriously here, how did you THINK it was going to end? With Raynor and Kerrigan dead? At the conclusion of part 1 of 3? Get real. This was always going to be about establishing characters, having them talk to each other a bit, and positioning themselves for the follow-up arcs.
I've seen lots of examples in this thread complaining of retcon and planning and of how the "original 3" Star Wars movies did it right. -points to internet GIFs of Luke and Leia making out before Lucas decided they were siblings-.
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Did they suddenly fall in love somewhere between BW and SC2? Raynor and Kerrigan didn't even know each other during the SC storyline.
Am i missing out on something? They had been flirting all the time...
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On October 25 2010 02:04 Billy_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 23:39 Koh wrote:
So you've decided it's going to be bad before it's actually made? I really liked the Wings of Liberty campaign story, it's about space marines fighting aliens with a sub plot about a mystic religion based on cool lasers and crystals. I wasn't expecting Thomas Hardy. This person here is right, give him/her a medal. Seriously... I just saw Bladerunner, started Planescape Torment, and am getting near the end of Farscape. I can honestly say that even Blizzards greatest fiction is solid waste excretion compared to these three. And yet I'm still a avid SC fan boy. It was a fun interactive movie and game. I got my monies worth. Youre comparing sc2 to the game with the best storyline of all time. Yes, disappointment is to be expected. Really, an rts should be judged on its gameplay merits, for my money. And the variety SC2 offered makes it top of the crop from that pov
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On October 25 2010 18:19 Honeybadger wrote:
I loved the ending to WoL. Sure, it's not in tune with the normal "everything fucking sucks and everyone dies" mentality of depression that it normally follows. But goddamnit, it's about time Raynor finally had his luck change. Terran are always torn apart by corruption, subterfuge, and natural human tendencies. But following the idealistic rebel gave it an opportunity to not completely suck ass.
Seriously. I loved the slightly hammy results. It's more Firefly than Brood War. But Firefly was a goddamn astounding show.
you and me are the minority here, but i completly agree, i was soooo sure it would end on some stupid "what a TWIST" ending/cliffhanger, but instead they concluded the the story (for now), and yes i was pleasantly suprised to see a happy ending for a change
ofc i will be disapointed if they will go with the whole "3vs1" plot, but until that happens im more than sadisfied
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On October 24 2010 23:32 HardcoreBilly wrote:J.R.R. Tolkien made up Lord of the Rings as he wrote. + Show Spoiler +It's too bad Blizzard's story writer decided to kill Tychus off. Totally unnecessary.
I know this is a bit off topic, but, no, he didn't.
The Silmarillion
Tolkien had developed a massive narrative structure over the course of his entire life, A narrative structure right from the very beggining of existence to the end of time, after the end of middle earth. The Lord of the Rings is one tiny tiny tiny tiny part of that entire story, the end of the third age with the destruction of the rings of power, of which Sauron (a mere weak creation, a servant, created by a turned/corrupted 'Ainur' named Melkor) plays a majour role in.
The actual story is plotted out quite thoroughly, chronologically before and after the setting of the lord of the rings, in great detail. I've read pretty much all he has written (even the obscure stuff thats not to easy to find) and i actually find it slightly offensive to hear such a comment about Tolkien lol. The guy was a genious, spent his life work dedicated to his craft, he didn't just 'make it up as he went along'.
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On October 25 2010 06:58 arb wrote:
You mean..Naga?
I dont think that would work on SC, i dont even know if they have any lore to pull shit out from
Naga is the one. For HotS I wouldn't mind if the hybrid were a mini-race.
Anyway, I don't remember that Duran died in BW. Will he make an appearance?
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On October 24 2010 23:37 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 23:32 HardcoreBilly wrote:J.R.R. Tolkien made up Lord of the Rings as he wrote. + Show Spoiler +It's too bad Blizzard's story writer decided to kill Tychus off. Totally unnecessary. They said Tychus probably wasn't dead in the Q&A on Friday. And said the graphics people have already played with an Infested Tychus model.
This must happen. Tychus is too badass and popular not to have him return in some way. Getting him saved by the swarm and recycled is a good idea. He also has a rather strong "primitive brutal instinct of man" side (a lot like the Comedian from Watchmen) that fits the Zerg bestiality nicely.
Anyways, I like the sound of a new mechanic for campaign though it reminds me of something I heard ages ago. As I recall their basic premise was WoL being based on first person from Raynor's perspective whereas HotS was going to be more of a broad/overall view, possibly tactical sector control or something (could be the protoss one, not sure).
As they said the armory and stuff makes sense for Raynor, not for HotS so much. Having a different campaign mechanic makes sense but I don't think they are going to let it overflow into multi player too much as they are trying to make a solid e-sports scene (and in my opinion succeeding).
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On October 25 2010 19:20 -Xios wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 23:32 HardcoreBilly wrote:J.R.R. Tolkien made up Lord of the Rings as he wrote. + Show Spoiler +It's too bad Blizzard's story writer decided to kill Tychus off. Totally unnecessary. I know this is a bit off topic, but, no, he didn't. The SilmarillionTolkien had developed a massive narrative structure over the course of his entire life, A narrative structure right from the very beggining of existence to the end of time, after the end of middle earth. The Lord of the Rings is one tiny tiny tiny tiny part of that entire story, the end of the third age with the destruction of the rings of power, of which Sauron (a mere weak creation, a servant, created by a turned/corrupted 'Ainur' named Melkor) plays a majour role in. The actual story is plotted out quite thoroughly, chronologically before and after the setting of the lord of the rings, in great detail. I've read pretty much all he has written (even the obscure stuff thats not to easy to find) and i actually find it slightly offensive to hear such a comment about Tolkien lol. The guy was a genious, spent his life work dedicated to his craft, he didn't just 'make it up as he went along'.
I may be a little less of a Tolkien nerd but ... the Silmarillion was compiled by his son after his death using all of his work. So the last bit (essentially a 2 page version of the Lord of the Rings) could actually just be written after the Lord of the Rings.
Also Blizzard may know the very end, just like Tolkien knew "Ring destroyed, Sauron beaten by Men, Elves leave, Realm of Men comes" that doesn't mean he knew how it would happen in any kind of detail.
Not qrguing that Tolkien is a genius, just that most writers only have a barebones framework initially.
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Ouch, "very, very, early" in the process of developing HotS? That really is painful. I'll have a wife and kids and a life if this takes more than 2 years to get out. Makes me sad really, I love sinking ridiculous amounts of hours in to sc2.
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That interview makes me very worried about the quality of the SP story for the expansions. Guess we will have to wait and see.
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I think Tychus will return... I mean he got shot but hey he could survived....
![[image loading]](http://us.media.blizzard.com/sc2/media/artwork/portrait_marine1-large.jpg)
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On October 25 2010 21:25 BUBBABADJOOOO wrote:I think Tychus will return... I mean he got shot but hey he could survived....
Lazy robot-eye is lazy.
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Yeah and IDK either but I'm really curious to see the the end to Blizzard's storyline. Ive only waited like 10 years you bitches!!!!
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If you think Blizzard had any idea how BW would end when they finished Star1 Vanilla, or how TFT and ROC would end when they finished ROC and Tides of Darkness respectively, then the OP seriously has 0 idea about anything.
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On October 24 2010 23:22 Nyxs wrote:
During the StarCraft II Story Q&A they made it pretty clear they already know how the story is going to be they just haven't defined everything. Also mentioning that after playing HoTS you'll understand a lot more about things from WoL.
I thought the problem with WoL was that it was so obvious all the time. Really, what more could we possibly find out? It felt like a children's story in the way they tried to make everything sound mystic, even though nothing ever surprised me in the SP.
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On October 24 2010 23:34 tacrats wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 23:31 Mothxal wrote:On October 24 2010 23:25 tacrats wrote:On October 24 2010 23:21 MrLonely wrote:
Legitimate storymaking technique. Stephen King doesn't know how his stories will end either, and I consider him a pretty good writer. Stephen King is a good writer and can pull that off. If WoL was any indication (ex: magix saves kerrigan raynor carries her off into the sunset), blizz doesnt have good writers anymore. So the fact that they have no idea what they are doing is going to result in a terrible, terrible story. Just because you disliked the single-player, don't pretend the rest of the world agrees. Hardly any writers know how a story will end. In fact, knowing often makes for a worse story, since then the story can be somewhat artificial and drawn out, since the pacing might not be accounted for in the original idea. any self-respecting individual would agree sc2 SP sucked. User was warned for this post
Only 1 side of the story is allowed. Of course SC2 single player sucked, but this is TL. Don't get out of the specific linear line they have set for you or you're a troll whose opinion doesn't matter.
Let me give you the reasons SC2 single player sucked, so you can't have a good reason to warn me.
1) -BW set precidence that Starcraft is a dark-themed game with suicides and gritty worlds with mean looking characters.
-SC2 characters look very cool and mean, but they are cheesy and corny to the maximum. At one point a drunken Jim Raynor shoots a television set. Wow.
-No Blizzard game before SC2 has had this level of cheese-factor in the story.
2) -Blizzard didn't really flesh out the characters well in SC2. For example, Vladimir putin Mengsk Jr. was the gayest half-villain character I have ever seen. How did he get to where he is now? No back story on that? Thanks for the half-assed approach to the story.
-The only cool character was Tychus Findley because they gave you a little back story on how he actually knew Jim Raynor. How do any of these other characters even know him?
3) -They had 5 years to flesh this story out. I understand this campaign is awesome in terms of the missions, but the story isn't up to par for the most part. BW's missions were just as good and the story was equally awesome.
4) -The campaign is supposed to justify the 3 product releases in SC2 instead of 1 product release, in which case it almost fails to do this. The only reason it didn't fail is because the character art along with the rest of the mechanics of the campaign are extremely well done.
Have to go to class.
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I expected Tychus to live when I finished the game, not showing him get shot kinda gives it away. Plus even IRL it's common for people to survive gunshot wounds to the head. I don't see how Blizzard not knowing the end matters, hots won't be the end so we are probably looking at 4-5 years at least before it's finished.
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On October 25 2010 14:18 DoubleReed wrote:
And yea, retconning the Overmind to a good guy is a retcon. It's a well handled retcon, but I would hope Blizzard would have learned something about retconning by now lol. Personally I always thought the Overmind was a good guy. He's just trying to consume all life into the all-empowering harmony of the swarm. What's wrong with that?
...."well handled"? No. It was awfully handled. Well handled would be something like turning the magic ring Bilbo won in the Hobbit into some kind of MacGuffin god-ring that can resurrect an evil dark lord and must be destroyed. Well handled would be returning to life great characters that were killed for no reason like Sherlock Holmes or Boba Fett. This is kind of like coming out with a new Star Wars movie that reveals that Darth Vader, one of the most badass villains of all time, was actually a whiny emo with metrosexual hair that turned to the dark side after having an 8-second dream sequence- wait...
On October 25 2010 18:19 Honeybadger wrote:
I loved the ending to WoL. Sure, it's not in tune with the normal "everything fucking sucks and everyone dies" mentality of depression that it normally follows. But goddamnit, it's about time Raynor finally had his luck change. Terran are always torn apart by corruption, subterfuge, and natural human tendencies. But following the idealistic rebel gave it an opportunity to not completely suck ass.
Seriously. I loved the slightly hammy results. It's more Firefly than Brood War. But Firefly was a goddamn astounding show.
Please stop comparing WoL to Firefly, you are starting to personally offend me.
On October 25 2010 18:31 Paradice wrote:I'd hate for my lounge to get covered in hot ash - so expensive! But seriously - I actually enjoyed the SC2 single player story. Sure it was somewhat predictable, but come on - seriously here, how did you THINK it was going to end? With Raynor and Kerrigan dead? At the conclusion of part 1 of 3? Get real. This was always going to be about establishing characters, having them talk to each other a bit, and positioning themselves for the follow-up arcs. I've seen lots of examples in this thread complaining of retcon and planning and of how the "original 3" Star Wars movies did it right. -points to internet GIFs of Luke and Leia making out before Lucas decided they were siblings-.
How did I think it was going to end? Good question. I kind of thought it was going to end with the gang taking down Mengsk and his evil empire - you know, just the goal you've been working towards for the entire first half of the game? But instead Mengsk kind of disappears when the gang gets a Deus Ex Xel'Naga device so Raynor can go ride off into the Char sunset with his girlfriend, who, by the way, as it turns out, is not a magnificent evil bitch after all, but is instead just some pawn of an ancient evil - a startlingly original plot device only used in about all teenage fanfiction ever.
There's a difference between a good retcon and just completely crapping all over an existing character. Revealing that Luke and Leia were siblings - okay, that's kind of creepy and it's a good thing they immediately ditched all the sexual tension, but it doesn't fundamentally change the characters, just adds a new dynamic to their character, and it helps to set up the plot. This retconning of such characters as the Overmind, on the other hand, even directly contradicting the lore that came with the original game, turning previously brilliant characters into middle school-level tropes all to set up their entirely unoriginal and unimpressive mytharc is unforgivable. And I haven't even gotten to the resurrecting Tassadar part.
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Plus even IRL it's common for people to survive gunshot wounds to the head
Is it?
+ Show Spoiler +Personally, I'm tired of characters living when they should have died. The scene was a crappy way to end the terran's story. Up to that point, you had a very rough character who, end the end, very much trusted Jim, and instead of using their endless wealth of technology to jam the friggin' signal on the bomb in his suit and remove the sucker normally, or ANYTHING. They knew someone had a trigger to his head and he was keeping it secret and they seriously did NOTHING for contingency? The writiers just decide to kill him off as soon as their motives conflict in a very brief scene with zero build up. It's bad writing. It's poor story flow.
Besides that, it just seems like most of the story doesn't really matter. In the end all of the side missions have absolutely no baring on... anything. The bit with the doctor, has no affect on anything. The bit with tosh has no affect on anything. The story with Horner MAY affect things... eventually. But had no affect on the final plot line. And most of this is just a fault of the way the plot is set up. Since it's possible to skip a lot of the missions they have to make it so that those stories don't actually become part of the main story and you end up with a bunch mini-series instead of a properly interwoven tale.
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On October 25 2010 19:20 -Xios wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 23:32 HardcoreBilly wrote:J.R.R. Tolkien made up Lord of the Rings as he wrote. + Show Spoiler +It's too bad Blizzard's story writer decided to kill Tychus off. Totally unnecessary. I know this is a bit off topic, but, no, he didn't. The SilmarillionTolkien had developed a massive narrative structure over the course of his entire life, A narrative structure right from the very beggining of existence to the end of time, after the end of middle earth. The Lord of the Rings is one tiny tiny tiny tiny part of that entire story, the end of the third age with the destruction of the rings of power, of which Sauron (a mere weak creation, a servant, created by a turned/corrupted 'Ainur' named Melkor) plays a majour role in. The actual story is plotted out quite thoroughly, chronologically before and after the setting of the lord of the rings, in great detail. I've read pretty much all he has written (even the obscure stuff thats not to easy to find) and i actually find it slightly offensive to hear such a comment about Tolkien lol. The guy was a genious, spent his life work dedicated to his craft, he didn't just 'make it up as he went along'.
Again off topic. But I think still interesting
Tolkien had indeed a massive library with facts about his world, the roles of the gods etc. But when he started writing LotR he didnt had a clear view of what he wanted to write. only after around 200 pages he started thinking about his story in advance.
On topic:
People seem to be under the impression that Blizzard has no idea what they want to do with the follow up story. This is in my opinion not true. From what I have heard at the Q&A they know very well what they want to do with the story! It looks like they are merely deciding what ending will be the best from the many endings they have come up with. Also, they have said that there is a lot of stuff in WoL that is very important for the follow up story but unknown for the players.
I liked the story a lot. very good characters. A very good sight of the multiple struggles the different races go through, etc.
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Please stop comparing WoL to Firefly, you are starting to personally offend me.
Get over yourself, WoL just needs a prostitute who's proud of her job and a brainwashed teenager and Blizzard could be done for copyright infringement... Not saying I didn't enjoy every minute though! I thought it was a great story
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On October 26 2010 00:43 Krigwin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 14:18 DoubleReed wrote:
And yea, retconning the Overmind to a good guy is a retcon. It's a well handled retcon, but I would hope Blizzard would have learned something about retconning by now lol. Personally I always thought the Overmind was a good guy. He's just trying to consume all life into the all-empowering harmony of the swarm. What's wrong with that? ...."well handled"? No. It was awfully handled. Well handled would be something like turning the magic ring Bilbo won in the Hobbit into some kind of MacGuffin god-ring that can resurrect an evil dark lord and must be destroyed. Well handled would be returning to life great characters that were killed for no reason like Sherlock Holmes or Boba Fett. This is kind of like coming out with a new Star Wars movie that reveals that Darth Vader, one of the most badass villains of all time, was actually a whiny emo with metrosexual hair that turned to the dark side after having an 8-second dream sequence- wait... Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 18:19 Honeybadger wrote:
I loved the ending to WoL. Sure, it's not in tune with the normal "everything fucking sucks and everyone dies" mentality of depression that it normally follows. But goddamnit, it's about time Raynor finally had his luck change. Terran are always torn apart by corruption, subterfuge, and natural human tendencies. But following the idealistic rebel gave it an opportunity to not completely suck ass.
Seriously. I loved the slightly hammy results. It's more Firefly than Brood War. But Firefly was a goddamn astounding show. Please stop comparing WoL to Firefly, you are starting to personally offend me. Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 18:31 Paradice wrote:I'd hate for my lounge to get covered in hot ash - so expensive! But seriously - I actually enjoyed the SC2 single player story. Sure it was somewhat predictable, but come on - seriously here, how did you THINK it was going to end? With Raynor and Kerrigan dead? At the conclusion of part 1 of 3? Get real. This was always going to be about establishing characters, having them talk to each other a bit, and positioning themselves for the follow-up arcs. I've seen lots of examples in this thread complaining of retcon and planning and of how the "original 3" Star Wars movies did it right. -points to internet GIFs of Luke and Leia making out before Lucas decided they were siblings-. How did I think it was going to end? Good question. I kind of thought it was going to end with the gang taking down Mengsk and his evil empire - you know, just the goal you've been working towards for the entire first half of the game? But instead Mengsk kind of disappears when the gang gets a Deus Ex Xel'Naga device so Raynor can go ride off into the Char sunset with his girlfriend, who, by the way, as it turns out, is not a magnificent evil bitch after all, but is instead just some pawn of an ancient evil - a startlingly original plot device only used in about all teenage fanfiction ever. There's a difference between a good retcon and just completely crapping all over an existing character. Revealing that Luke and Leia were siblings - okay, that's kind of creepy and it's a good thing they immediately ditched all the sexual tension, but it doesn't fundamentally change the characters, just adds a new dynamic to their character, and it helps to set up the plot. This retconning of such characters as the Overmind, on the other hand, even directly contradicting the lore that came with the original game, turning previously brilliant characters into middle school-level tropes all to set up their entirely unoriginal and unimpressive mytharc is unforgivable. And I haven't even gotten to the resurrecting Tassadar part.
Oh hey, it's another know it all. Hi there, how are you doing?
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On October 26 2010 01:49 Billy_ wrote:
Oh hey, it's another know it all. Hi there, how are you doing?
About as well as can be expected on a Monday morning. How are you doing, child that makes elementary school quips?
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On October 25 2010 18:31 Paradice wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 04:06 MalVortex wrote:
Sort of. The official wiki has contradictory points on that. Given the level of ash prevalent in the atmosphere, any breathing would at best be constrained to constant hacking and coughing, not to mention the permanent damage that hot ash can do to lungs. I'd hate for my lounge to get covered in hot ash - so expensive! But seriously - I actually enjoyed the SC2 single player story. Sure it was somewhat predictable, but come on - seriously here, how did you THINK it was going to end? With Raynor and Kerrigan dead? At the conclusion of part 1 of 3? Get real. This was always going to be about establishing characters, having them talk to each other a bit, and positioning themselves for the follow-up arcs. I've seen lots of examples in this thread complaining of retcon and planning and of how the "original 3" Star Wars movies did it right. -points to internet GIFs of Luke and Leia making out before Lucas decided they were siblings-.
Oh, I"m sorry, I made a simple typo on a webforum, clearly that invalidates my argument. Oh wait, no it doesn't! It is, however, a nice little strawman argument - look look, he added an extra letter! He clearly is wrong and should be ignored!
If you don't actually have anything to say about the gross plot narm that I pointed out (and lets be honest, I only posted the tip of the iceberg there), then don't try to play spelling nazi. I don't care about how it stacks up to other scifi plots, or the inevitable "all the main characters live in a PG-13 work syndrome". That's all expected.
What you can't ignore, or get around, or hand-wave, is the narm. The lines are said so seriously, yet are so pants on head retarded, that it destroys the suspension of belief in the game and makes you burst out laughing at the amazingly stupid and blindingly non-genre savvy characters. Findlay is the very embodiment of this narm - think through, reall carefully now, how dumb his plot is.
Mengsk releases him to kill a human-form Kerigan. To do that, he needs to saddle back up with Raynor, rebel and destroy numerous high-value Dominion installations, find, acquire, and assemble previously unknown alien artifacts (seriously, even if Mengsk knew of the Xel'Naga artifacts, he would have no way of knowing what they did), then he needs his son to betray his rule, take over half the dominion fleet, blindly attack char (this happened in SC1. they all died), and finally assemble and activate the artifact.
You can't even read it with a straight face! The plot makes no sense, its based off details that Mengsk could not know or anticipate, yet lo and behold, that was his plan the entire time. Why bother try to kill them then at all? Just to keep up appearances? The only way that makes sense is for the incriminating recovered adjutant to also be part of his plan, and for the plucky Raynor to get it!
That doesn't even get into "serious" lines like the whole Dr. love angle. "Were going to a planet called HAVEN. How convenient, given we are looking for a safe...haven..."
The story was narmy as all hell. There are no two ways about that. Please, Defend the Mengsk Xanatos gambit w/ Findlay, I'd love to see an attempt at justifying that in a way that doesn't invoke bursts of laughter.
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On October 26 2010 01:59 Krigwin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 01:49 Billy_ wrote:
Oh hey, it's another know it all. Hi there, how are you doing? About as well as can be expected on a Monday morning. How are you doing, child that makes elementary school quips?
You seem to have missed the whole life-as-a-slave theme that's been following Kerrigan ever since the beginning.
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Why did Raynor want to rescue Kerrigan? Didnt he swear over Fenix's dead body that he would one day kill her?
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On October 26 2010 02:11 MalVortex wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 18:31 Paradice wrote:On October 25 2010 04:06 MalVortex wrote:
Sort of. The official wiki has contradictory points on that. Given the level of ash prevalent in the atmosphere, any breathing would at best be constrained to constant hacking and coughing, not to mention the permanent damage that hot ash can do to lungs. I'd hate for my lounge to get covered in hot ash - so expensive! But seriously - I actually enjoyed the SC2 single player story. Sure it was somewhat predictable, but come on - seriously here, how did you THINK it was going to end? With Raynor and Kerrigan dead? At the conclusion of part 1 of 3? Get real. This was always going to be about establishing characters, having them talk to each other a bit, and positioning themselves for the follow-up arcs. I've seen lots of examples in this thread complaining of retcon and planning and of how the "original 3" Star Wars movies did it right. -points to internet GIFs of Luke and Leia making out before Lucas decided they were siblings-. Oh, I"m sorry, I made a simple typo on a webforum, clearly that invalidates my argument. Oh wait, no it doesn't! It is, however, a nice little strawman argument - look look, he added an extra letter! He clearly is wrong and should be ignored! If you don't actually have anything to say about the gross plot narm that I pointed out (and lets be honest, I only posted the tip of the iceberg there), then don't try to play spelling nazi. I don't care about how it stacks up to other scifi plots, or the inevitable "all the main characters live in a PG-13 work syndrome". That's all expected. What you can't ignore, or get around, or hand-wave, is the narm. The lines are said so seriously, yet are so pants on head retarded, that it destroys the suspension of belief in the game and makes you burst out laughing at the amazingly stupid and blindingly non-genre savvy characters. Findlay is the very embodiment of this narm - think through, reall carefully now, how dumb his plot is. Mengsk releases him to kill a human-form Kerigan. To do that, he needs to saddle back up with Raynor, rebel and destroy numerous high-value Dominion installations, find, acquire, and assemble previously unknown alien artifacts (seriously, even if Mengsk knew of the Xel'Naga artifacts, he would have no way of knowing what they did), then he needs his son to betray his rule, take over half the dominion fleet, blindly attack char (this happened in SC1. they all died), and finally assemble and activate the artifact. You can't even read it with a straight face! The plot makes no sense, its based off details that Mengsk could not know or anticipate, yet lo and behold, that was his plan the entire time. Why bother try to kill them then at all? Just to keep up appearances? The only way that makes sense is for the incriminating recovered adjutant to also be part of his plan, and for the plucky Raynor to get it! That doesn't even get into "serious" lines like the whole Dr. love angle. "Were going to a planet called HAVEN. How convenient, given we are looking for a safe...haven..." The story was narmy as all hell. There are no two ways about that. Please, Defend the Mengsk Xanatos gambit w/ Findlay, I'd love to see an attempt at justifying that in a way that doesn't invoke bursts of laughter.
did you watch Blizzcon?
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On October 26 2010 02:19 DiracMonopole wrote:
Why did Raynor want to rescue Kerrigan? Didnt he swear over Fenix's dead body that he would one day kill her?
He said and did a lot of things. Why does everyone act like that thing with Fenix invalidate everything he did and said which were all pro-Kerrigan? You know, back before she got infested and seemingly irredeemably evil until Valarian made Raynor a deal regarding the artifacts? I swear, these forums are proof positive that people are tunnel visioned and only see what they want to see.
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Writing a story without knowing how it will end is how you get nonsense like Dragon Ball Z and Bleach. A good story is written with an ending in mind. It may not start out as a very detailed concept, but most writers have at least a vague idea as to where they want their story to go. The rest of the details such as character development and pacing of the story can all be filled in to work towards that direction.
If it is actually the case that Blizzard has no idea where they want this story to go, that might explain why the storyline of Wings of Liberty didn't seem incredibly thought out. At any rate, I hope that they do a better job in the coming expansions. A well-written story can really add so much to a game, even if the game is primarily played multiplayer.
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On October 26 2010 02:22 Billy_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 02:19 DiracMonopole wrote:
Why did Raynor want to rescue Kerrigan? Didnt he swear over Fenix's dead body that he would one day kill her? He said and did a lot of things. Why does everyone act like that thing with Fenix invalidate everything he did and said which were all pro-Kerrigan? You know, back before she got infested and seemingly irredeemably evil until Valarian made Raynor a deal regarding the artifacts? I swear, these forums are proof positive that people are tunnel visioned and only see what they want to see.
bros b4 hos
qed ^^
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On October 24 2010 23:21 MrLonely wrote:
Legitimate storymaking technique. Stephen King doesn't know how his stories will end either, and I consider him a pretty good writer.
/agree
that way nothing gets leaked. Likely whoever is the main writer has an idea of it in his/her head, but is keeping it there till necessary so there isn't any leaks.
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On October 26 2010 02:28 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 02:22 Billy_ wrote:On October 26 2010 02:19 DiracMonopole wrote:
Why did Raynor want to rescue Kerrigan? Didnt he swear over Fenix's dead body that he would one day kill her? He said and did a lot of things. Why does everyone act like that thing with Fenix invalidate everything he did and said which were all pro-Kerrigan? You know, back before she got infested and seemingly irredeemably evil until Valarian made Raynor a deal regarding the artifacts? I swear, these forums are proof positive that people are tunnel visioned and only see what they want to see. bros b4 hos qed ^^
chicks b4 dicks
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Seriously though.... Jim wanting to save Kerrigan is just consistent character development. So he gave up on saving her and threatened her, big deal. Doesn't change the fact that he once liked her, rushed to her aid before she hatched on Char, and then got told by Valarian that he might not have to kill her.
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As people have pointed out, perfectly legitimate authors do start stories, not knowing precisely how they will end. However, I think the writing staff of Blizzard would admit to not being Tolkien, or even Stephen King. You don't have to look to hard to see that Blizzard has previously recycled storylines, and while they may be better than rival RTS games, aren't great works.
Not have the story arc and ending in mind can easily lead to disaster. Battlestar Galactica, imo, is exactly such a case.
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On October 26 2010 02:15 Billy_ wrote:
You seem to have missed the whole life-as-a-slave theme that's been following Kerrigan ever since the beginning.
On October 26 2010 02:22 Billy_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 02:19 DiracMonopole wrote:
Why did Raynor want to rescue Kerrigan? Didnt he swear over Fenix's dead body that he would one day kill her? He said and did a lot of things. Why does everyone act like that thing with Fenix invalidate everything he did and said which were all pro-Kerrigan? You know, back before she got infested and seemingly irredeemably evil until Valarian made Raynor a deal regarding the artifacts? I swear, these forums are proof positive that people are tunnel visioned and only see what they want to see.
On October 26 2010 02:35 Billy_ wrote:
Seriously though.... Jim wanting to save Kerrigan is just consistent character development. So he gave up on saving her and threatened her, big deal. Doesn't change the fact that he once liked her, rushed to her aid before she hatched on Char, and then got told by Valarian that he might not have to kill her.
You know, if you really enjoyed the babby's first RTS story of WoL, and are taking the official Blizzard stance of "don't take SC-BW too seriously, we're making a somewhat new plot here out of our ass", that's fantastic, I hope you really enjoy the expansions, etc., but don't try to argue with people who actually liked SC-BW and think things like a sequel should be somewhat true to the original and not retcon everything into a steaming pile of garbage.
It's been explained a dozen times and clearly you just don't care, but for everyone else here reading, let me sum it up here:
First, the implied romance garbage. Nowhere is this really implied unless you're doing some kind of mind-meld with the Blizzard writers - they have one short exchange of quips when they first meet and people are taking this to mean he's deeply in love with her? Yes, he tries to save her - because she was one of his unit and was abandoned to the enemy, if she was a dude he'd do the same, it doesn't have to imply romance - especially since right after that she reveals how irredeemably evil she has become and is no longer the same person he knew.
She then goes on to betray and kill Fenix, whom if you'll remember fought side by side with Raynor to the extent of fending off hordes of Zerg on Aiur, and Raynor swears over his corpse he'll get revenge on Kerrigan himself. Fast forward to WoL, and what happens? Raynor has discarded his blood oath and fights to keep Kerrigan alive, to the point of shooting his own man, a romance plot is shoehorned in seemingly out of thin air, and all the previous exchanges where Raynor realizes Kerrigan is beyond saving and even if she wasn't, she still deserves to die for her crimes, totally forgotten. This is not "consistent". This is bizarre retcon garbage. I haven't even gotten to how contrived and nonsensical the whole "magicky Xel-Naga de-infesting device" plot arc was.
The most pathetic thing is the entire "Raynor carries human Kerrigan off" scene, which obviously Blizzard was working towards all along, could have very easily been done well, as countless people have suggested, by making it happen at the end of the third campaign. If this was the story Blizzard now intends, that's fine, the retcons could have been handled gracefully, but instead the whole thing was pulled off extremely poorly and makes WoL look like trash compared to SC-BW.
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On October 26 2010 03:11 Krigwin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 02:15 Billy_ wrote:
You seem to have missed the whole life-as-a-slave theme that's been following Kerrigan ever since the beginning. Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 02:22 Billy_ wrote:On October 26 2010 02:19 DiracMonopole wrote:
Why did Raynor want to rescue Kerrigan? Didnt he swear over Fenix's dead body that he would one day kill her? He said and did a lot of things. Why does everyone act like that thing with Fenix invalidate everything he did and said which were all pro-Kerrigan? You know, back before she got infested and seemingly irredeemably evil until Valarian made Raynor a deal regarding the artifacts? I swear, these forums are proof positive that people are tunnel visioned and only see what they want to see. Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 02:35 Billy_ wrote:
Seriously though.... Jim wanting to save Kerrigan is just consistent character development. So he gave up on saving her and threatened her, big deal. Doesn't change the fact that he once liked her, rushed to her aid before she hatched on Char, and then got told by Valarian that he might not have to kill her. You know, if you really enjoyed the babby's first RTS story of WoL, and are taking the official Blizzard stance of "don't take SC-BW too seriously, we're making a somewhat new plot here out of our ass", that's fantastic, I hope you really enjoy the expansions, etc., but don't try to argue with people who actually liked SC-BW and think things like a sequel should be somewhat true to the original and not retcon everything into a steaming pile of garbage. It's been explained a dozen times and clearly you just don't care, but for everyone else here reading, let me sum it up here: First, the implied romance garbage. Nowhere is this really implied unless you're doing some kind of mind-meld with the Blizzard writers - they have one short exchange of quips when they first meet and people are taking this to mean he's deeply in love with her? Yes, he tries to save her - because she was one of his unit and was abandoned to the enemy, if she was a dude he'd do the same, it doesn't have to imply romance - especially since right after that she reveals how irredeemably evil she has become and is no longer the same person he knew. She then goes on to betray and kill Fenix, whom if you'll remember fought side by side with Raynor to the extent of fending off hordes of Zerg on Aiur, and Raynor swears over his corpse he'll get revenge on Kerrigan himself. Fast forward to WoL, and what happens? Raynor has discarded his blood oath and fights to keep Kerrigan alive, to the point of shooting his own man, a romance plot is shoehorned in seemingly out of thin air, and all the previous exchanges where Raynor realizes Kerrigan is beyond saving and even if she wasn't, she still deserves to die for her crimes, totally forgotten. This is not "consistent". This is bizarre retcon garbage. I haven't even gotten to how contrived and nonsensical the whole "magicky Xel-Naga de-infesting device" plot arc was. The most pathetic thing is the entire "Raynor carries human Kerrigan off" scene, which obviously Blizzard was working towards all along, could have very easily been done well, as countless people have suggested, by making it happen at the end of the third campaign. If this was the story Blizzard now intends, that's fine, the retcons could have been handled gracefully, but instead the whole thing was pulled off extremely poorly and makes WoL look like trash compared to SC-BW.
No it doesn't. Like I said, people only see what we want to see. Just because you think you know the story and characters better than the people who wrote them means nothing. I don't care that you have an opinion, I care that you're arrogant and act like everyone but you is wrong. Pull your head out son, the world doesn't owe you shit. And for the record, the plot would have workd, implied romance or not, Jim did expressed quite a lot of guilt and self blame in SCI.
Don't bother replying, I've got nothing more to say.
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On October 26 2010 03:11 Krigwin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 02:15 Billy_ wrote:
You seem to have missed the whole life-as-a-slave theme that's been following Kerrigan ever since the beginning. Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 02:22 Billy_ wrote:On October 26 2010 02:19 DiracMonopole wrote:
Why did Raynor want to rescue Kerrigan? Didnt he swear over Fenix's dead body that he would one day kill her? He said and did a lot of things. Why does everyone act like that thing with Fenix invalidate everything he did and said which were all pro-Kerrigan? You know, back before she got infested and seemingly irredeemably evil until Valarian made Raynor a deal regarding the artifacts? I swear, these forums are proof positive that people are tunnel visioned and only see what they want to see. Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 02:35 Billy_ wrote:
Seriously though.... Jim wanting to save Kerrigan is just consistent character development. So he gave up on saving her and threatened her, big deal. Doesn't change the fact that he once liked her, rushed to her aid before she hatched on Char, and then got told by Valarian that he might not have to kill her. You know, if you really enjoyed the babby's first RTS story of WoL, and are taking the official Blizzard stance of "don't take SC-BW too seriously, we're making a somewhat new plot here out of our ass", that's fantastic, I hope you really enjoy the expansions, etc., but don't try to argue with people who actually liked SC-BW and think things like a sequel should be somewhat true to the original and not retcon everything into a steaming pile of garbage. It's been explained a dozen times and clearly you just don't care, but for everyone else here reading, let me sum it up here: First, the implied romance garbage. Nowhere is this really implied unless you're doing some kind of mind-meld with the Blizzard writers - they have one short exchange of quips when they first meet and people are taking this to mean he's deeply in love with her? Yes, he tries to save her - because she was one of his unit and was abandoned to the enemy, if she was a dude he'd do the same, it doesn't have to imply romance - especially since right after that she reveals how irredeemably evil she has become and is no longer the same person he knew. She then goes on to betray and kill Fenix, whom if you'll remember fought side by side with Raynor to the extent of fending off hordes of Zerg on Aiur, and Raynor swears over his corpse he'll get revenge on Kerrigan himself. Fast forward to WoL, and what happens? Raynor has discarded his blood oath and fights to keep Kerrigan alive, to the point of shooting his own man, a romance plot is shoehorned in seemingly out of thin air, and all the previous exchanges where Raynor realizes Kerrigan is beyond saving and even if she wasn't, she still deserves to die for her crimes, totally forgotten. This is not "consistent". This is bizarre retcon garbage. I haven't even gotten to how contrived and nonsensical the whole "magicky Xel-Naga de-infesting device" plot arc was. The most pathetic thing is the entire "Raynor carries human Kerrigan off" scene, which obviously Blizzard was working towards all along, could have very easily been done well, as countless people have suggested, by making it happen at the end of the third campaign. If this was the story Blizzard now intends, that's fine, the retcons could have been handled gracefully, but instead the whole thing was pulled off extremely poorly and makes WoL look like trash compared to SC-BW.
I strongly get the feeling you didn't see the blizzard Q&A.
Also, there is and always has been romance between Raynor and Kerrigan. (read the books)
lastly they said that Fenix wasn't forgotten and that there would come more about that in the following chapters...
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On October 26 2010 03:21 Billy_ wrote:
No it doesn't. Like I said, people only see what we want to see. Just because you think you know the story and characters better than the people who wrote them means nothing. I don't care that you have an opinion, I care that you're arrogant and act like everyone but you is wrong. Pull your head out son, the world doesn't owe you shit. And for the record, the plot would have workd, implied romance or not, Jim did expressed quite a lot of guilt and self blame in SCI.
No it doesn't? No what doesn't? Good rebuttal, by the way.
Where did I state I "know the story and characters better than the people who wrote them"? If an official Blizzard writer is going to come down here and explain why my interpretation is wholly incorrect, I wholeheartedly welcome them, and indeed, even if what I garnered differs from their vision, it doesn't make my criticisms of their technique invalid.
Also, "you're arrogant" is not rhetoric. And "the world doesn't owe you shit"? What does that even mean? If you don't care about people's opinions and are going to outright dismiss posts entirely through personal insults, then save everyone a bit of time and don't even post, I daresay we can get by without your valuable contributions. And in the meantime, how about you grow up a bit and stop resorting to childish attacks on the internet? This isn't high school.
On October 26 2010 03:24 Deckkie wrote:
I strongly get the feeling you didn't see the blizzard Q&A.
Also, there is and always has been romance between Raynor and Kerrigan. (read the books)
lastly they said that Fenix wasn't forgotten and that there would come more about that in the following chapters...
I did watch the Q&A actually, but as a longtime WoW player and someone who anticipated SC:Ghost I've learned to take everything Blizzard says with a grain of salt. I'll reserve my judgment for when the expansions actually come out.
As an aside, imagine if Fellowship of the Ring consisted of just the following paragraph: Frodo finds a magic ring and teams up with Gandalf, Aragorn, and associated hobbits and elves and dwarves and journeys across the land to defeat Sauron. Along the way they are separated and Gandalf falls into an abyss, Frodo later decides to continue the journey alone. To be continued!
Claiming the story will be cleared up in later iterations is not a valid storytelling technique, and does not excuse poor and ambiguous writing. Nor is claiming the audience has somehow misinterpreted a writer's intention a valid defense. If Tolkien had come out after Return of the King claiming Sauron and the orcs were the good guys all along and everyone who had just naturally assumed they were evil after three volumes expositing how evil they were were all wrong, how do you think that would've gone down?
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Kerrigan was once human and was betrayed horribly by Raynor's arch enemy Mengsk, so it doesn't make much sense to compare her to Sauron. It makes perfect sense to me that Raynor would become more and more regretful/sad/bitter as time went on and he watched how Mengsk used her as a stepping stone to gain power. Plus he probably had no idea she could be saved anyways, didn't he decide to try and save after Mengsk's son convinced him?
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10387 Posts
hey this sounds like how Bleach is being written, no planning in advance of the story so it starts off pretty good but becomes shittier as it goes on
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Don't really understand how they fkd up the story and characters so bad.
Metzen and the older blizzard devs are still around, and the new guys were in charge of the gameplay so it had nothing to do with it.
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On October 26 2010 04:13 Treemonkeys wrote:
Kerrigan was once human and was betrayed horribly by Raynor's arch enemy Mengsk, so it doesn't make much sense to compare her to Sauron. It makes perfect sense to me that Raynor would become more and more regretful/sad/bitter as time went on and he watched how Mengsk used her as a stepping stone to gain power. Plus he probably had no idea she could be saved anyways, didn't he decide to try and save after Mengsk's son convinced him?
I was actually thinking of the Overmind when I made that comparison, but it does apply somewhat to Kerrigan. The whole of BW established her as an evil mastermind that manipulated everyone around her, including Raynor, in her rise to ultimate power. Now we're supposed to believe that this hitherto diabolical villain is actually just an unwilling pawn to some unbeknownst greater power?
And the whole sudden switch to rescuing her plot is the entire character derailment. Raynor had, over the entirety of SC-BW, grown to swear death on Kerrigan. Even if she could be de-infested it doesn't excuse her crimes for which Raynor swore revenge. To suddenly discard this and attempt to "save" her is massively out of character unless you have some radically different interpretation, which is your right of course, but it's not very supported by actual ingame material.
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On October 26 2010 05:19 Krigwin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 04:13 Treemonkeys wrote:
Kerrigan was once human and was betrayed horribly by Raynor's arch enemy Mengsk, so it doesn't make much sense to compare her to Sauron. It makes perfect sense to me that Raynor would become more and more regretful/sad/bitter as time went on and he watched how Mengsk used her as a stepping stone to gain power. Plus he probably had no idea she could be saved anyways, didn't he decide to try and save after Mengsk's son convinced him? I was actually thinking of the Overmind when I made that comparison, but it does apply somewhat to Kerrigan. The whole of BW established her as an evil mastermind that manipulated everyone around her, including Raynor, in her rise to ultimate power. Now we're supposed to believe that this hitherto diabolical villain is actually just an unwilling pawn to some unbeknownst greater power? And the whole sudden switch to rescuing her plot is the entire character derailment. Raynor had, over the entirety of SC-BW, grown to swear death on Kerrigan. Even if she could be de-infested it doesn't excuse her crimes for which Raynor swore revenge. To suddenly discard this and attempt to "save" her is massively out of character unless you have some radically different interpretation, which is your right of course, but it's not very supported by actual ingame material.
She unwillingly became a zerg, so yeah, she was an unwilling pawn. Everything she did in BW were things she obviously wouldn't have done as a human, when she was human she didn't even want to use the zerg against her enemies. This is all in game material, from SC and BW no less.
Actually if you think about it further, in SC/BW, Rayner went through a transition where he tried to interact with Kerrigan and slowly had to realize that she was not the same. If he learned that it would be possible to make her human again, it makes complete sense that he would change his mind about killing her.
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On October 26 2010 02:35 Billy_ wrote:
Seriously though.... Jim wanting to save Kerrigan is just consistent character development. So he gave up on saving her and threatened her, big deal. Doesn't change the fact that he once liked her, rushed to her aid before she hatched on Char, and then got told by Valarian that he might not have to kill her.
No. It isn't character development. There's nothing what makes Raynor change his mind. And, he can't suddenly have been romantically involved with Kerrigan. They met for the first time in SC campaign. They worked together for like 3 missions. That's all. Did Raynor have dreams or something about how things could have been if events had been different and he fell in love with her that way or what?
You don't hate someone so badly you want to kill her with your own hands then and there, then not see each other for like what 3 years? And then you suddenly not only think you can save that person but you also are in love with that person?
It is just bad story telling to not even try to cover up that plot hole. You call it character development? It is a complete lack of such a thing.
And how did he like her? There was only Kerrigan saying 'you pig' as she was reading her mind. And that may have been their first and last meeting.
Fact that he suddenly believes people can be deinfester, they start hunting artifacts for money, and then artifact turns out to be a zerg deinfester, it's all extremely badly done. I personally could have done better. But the thing is, Blizzard did market research and they discovered that it doesn't matter how good or bad the story is. So they choose not to waste rescources and profit on it. With the last few Hollywood movies we have had, like the Star Trek one, anything is good.
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On October 26 2010 03:24 Deckkie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 03:11 Krigwin wrote:On October 26 2010 02:15 Billy_ wrote:
You seem to have missed the whole life-as-a-slave theme that's been following Kerrigan ever since the beginning. On October 26 2010 02:22 Billy_ wrote:On October 26 2010 02:19 DiracMonopole wrote:
Why did Raynor want to rescue Kerrigan? Didnt he swear over Fenix's dead body that he would one day kill her? He said and did a lot of things. Why does everyone act like that thing with Fenix invalidate everything he did and said which were all pro-Kerrigan? You know, back before she got infested and seemingly irredeemably evil until Valarian made Raynor a deal regarding the artifacts? I swear, these forums are proof positive that people are tunnel visioned and only see what they want to see. On October 26 2010 02:35 Billy_ wrote:
Seriously though.... Jim wanting to save Kerrigan is just consistent character development. So he gave up on saving her and threatened her, big deal. Doesn't change the fact that he once liked her, rushed to her aid before she hatched on Char, and then got told by Valarian that he might not have to kill her. You know, if you really enjoyed the babby's first RTS story of WoL, and are taking the official Blizzard stance of "don't take SC-BW too seriously, we're making a somewhat new plot here out of our ass", that's fantastic, I hope you really enjoy the expansions, etc., but don't try to argue with people who actually liked SC-BW and think things like a sequel should be somewhat true to the original and not retcon everything into a steaming pile of garbage. It's been explained a dozen times and clearly you just don't care, but for everyone else here reading, let me sum it up here: First, the implied romance garbage. Nowhere is this really implied unless you're doing some kind of mind-meld with the Blizzard writers - they have one short exchange of quips when they first meet and people are taking this to mean he's deeply in love with her? Yes, he tries to save her - because she was one of his unit and was abandoned to the enemy, if she was a dude he'd do the same, it doesn't have to imply romance - especially since right after that she reveals how irredeemably evil she has become and is no longer the same person he knew. She then goes on to betray and kill Fenix, whom if you'll remember fought side by side with Raynor to the extent of fending off hordes of Zerg on Aiur, and Raynor swears over his corpse he'll get revenge on Kerrigan himself. Fast forward to WoL, and what happens? Raynor has discarded his blood oath and fights to keep Kerrigan alive, to the point of shooting his own man, a romance plot is shoehorned in seemingly out of thin air, and all the previous exchanges where Raynor realizes Kerrigan is beyond saving and even if she wasn't, she still deserves to die for her crimes, totally forgotten. This is not "consistent". This is bizarre retcon garbage. I haven't even gotten to how contrived and nonsensical the whole "magicky Xel-Naga de-infesting device" plot arc was. The most pathetic thing is the entire "Raynor carries human Kerrigan off" scene, which obviously Blizzard was working towards all along, could have very easily been done well, as countless people have suggested, by making it happen at the end of the third campaign. If this was the story Blizzard now intends, that's fine, the retcons could have been handled gracefully, but instead the whole thing was pulled off extremely poorly and makes WoL look like trash compared to SC-BW. I strongly get the feeling you didn't see the blizzard Q&A. Also, there is and always has been romance between Raynor and Kerrigan. (read the books) lastly they said that Fenix wasn't forgotten and that there would come more about that in the following chapters...
Read the books? Are you freaking kidding me? So now I have to read a bunch of shitty books, the graphic novel and buy the limited edition StarCraft cereal so I can get enough box tops to unlock the super secret short story to understand the game? Fuck That.
Secondly, even if the books add in a romance, that's an enormous retcon from what is established in SC/BW. Raynor and Kerrigan knew each other for only a few days. They flirted a couple times and that was it. Just bad writing all around. From what I've heard, the StarCraft books aren't well-written at all either.
Blizzard writers are hacks. An objective look at SC2's writing will show that. I've never seen a game written so badly. Frankly, the professionalism of the voice actors is astounding. To say that tripe with a straight face requires far more virtue than most of us can muster. The entire plot is a disjointed mess. There's no continuity between missions. Characters motives randomly appear and disappear with no real logical course. SC2's plot is written like a bad fanfic. Seriously, if you read SC2's plot in 2002 on a Geocities website, you'd think it was trash because it is trash.
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On October 25 2010 09:41 TedJustice wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 08:21 Kimaker wrote:On October 25 2010 00:21 Polydamas wrote:
I think SC2 story was made for an entirely different audience than SC BW story. Popular/teenage culture has changed a lot in all these years. Things have gotten really shallow. Prime example to me is how Raynor and Kerrigan suddenly have a romantic relationship. Did they suddenly fall in love somewhere between BW and SC2? Raynor and Kerrigan didn't even know each other during the SC storyline. Then in BW she turned zerg and Raynor said he wanted to kill her.
You have CLEARLY never played BW SP. That, or I just got trolled. They definitely knew each other. But I see his point. Raynor made one cheeky comment about her (in his head), and suddenly they were romantically involved?
xD
Can't really argue that point.
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On October 26 2010 00:43 Krigwin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 18:19 Honeybadger wrote:
I loved the ending to WoL. Sure, it's not in tune with the normal "everything fucking sucks and everyone dies" mentality of depression that it normally follows. But goddamnit, it's about time Raynor finally had his luck change. Terran are always torn apart by corruption, subterfuge, and natural human tendencies. But following the idealistic rebel gave it an opportunity to not completely suck ass.
Seriously. I loved the slightly hammy results. It's more Firefly than Brood War. But Firefly was a goddamn astounding show. Please stop comparing WoL to Firefly, you are starting to personally offend me.
Why? the music and overall feel or the characters is spot-on.
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On October 26 2010 05:09 klauz619 wrote:
Don't really understand how they fkd up the story and characters so bad.
Metzen and the older blizzard devs are still around, and the new guys were in charge of the gameplay so it had nothing to do with it.
You want to know why? Just watch this.
Blizzard actually have competent writers but they weren't the ones in charge.
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On October 26 2010 05:09 klauz619 wrote:
Don't really understand how they fkd up the story and characters so bad.
Metzen and the older blizzard devs are still around, and the new guys were in charge of the gameplay so it had nothing to do with it.
The problem is that Metzen just doesn't really care for internal consistency anymore. This was very clear in the BlizzCon Q&As when fans pointed out major contradictions in the stories and the guy could barely give an answer. My personal favorite was when a little kid was asking how Goblins and Worgens could become Death Knights and WoW, and Metzen was completely stumped by it.
Another problem with Blizzard writers in general is that they've become too obsessed with making their franchises like action movies. The constant horrible attempts at "cool" one-liners, cinematics that focus more on mindless action rather than plot or drama, and so little regard for making characters and actions make sense that even a little kid can see it. It just seems like ever since The Burning Crusade in WoW, the writers all collectively lost their minds and became lazy. It's a shame too, because it used to be a lot better.
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They had already sliped before that no hots before 2012 ...
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Writing like that leaves the opportunity for more plotholes, but the plot is a bit more dynamic I guess. Keeping note of what characters and things have happened or done what helps make your story more coherent and less contradictory but formulaic. Planning ahead helps make the story seem more airtight too. As long as it makes sense and doesnt forget to sensibly tie up loose ends I'll be happy.
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That's quite crap statement from ign right there. They know the rough stuff about where the story leads, but its obvious they don't know each and exact detail, that is something that will come as they progress with the games.
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On October 24 2010 23:22 Theston wrote:
Of course they don't.
Do you think J.K. Rowling knew how her seventh book ended when she wrote the first?
Actually she did buddy. I've read the biography :D
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i dont know why most of the people judge blizzard for the wol story beeing shit so THE HOLE STORY must be shit aswell.
sc1 had all 3 storys in one game. i guess if they made sc1 in parts the protoss story would suck too.
u have to see wol as a part of the story. ofc they dont fire all the storytwists and awesome stuff in one part. ~~
wait till the story is complete then judge.
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On October 26 2010 06:00 Xtar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 02:35 Billy_ wrote:
Seriously though.... Jim wanting to save Kerrigan is just consistent character development. So he gave up on saving her and threatened her, big deal. Doesn't change the fact that he once liked her, rushed to her aid before she hatched on Char, and then got told by Valarian that he might not have to kill her. No. It isn't character development. There's nothing what makes Raynor change his mind. And, he can't suddenly have been romantically involved with Kerrigan. They met for the first time in SC campaign. They worked together for like 3 missions. That's all. Did Raynor have dreams or something about how things could have been if events had been different and he fell in love with her that way or what? You don't hate someone so badly you want to kill her with your own hands then and there, then not see each other for like what 3 years? And then you suddenly not only think you can save that person but you also are in love with that person? It is just bad story telling to not even try to cover up that plot hole. You call it character development? It is a complete lack of such a thing. And how did he like her? There was only Kerrigan saying 'you pig' as she was reading her mind. And that may have been their first and last meeting. Fact that he suddenly believes people can be deinfester, they start hunting artifacts for money, and then artifact turns out to be a zerg deinfester, it's all extremely badly done. I personally could have done better. But the thing is, Blizzard did market research and they discovered that it doesn't matter how good or bad the story is. So they choose not to waste rescources and profit on it. With the last few Hollywood movies we have had, like the Star Trek one, anything is good.
It seems like you need to refresh your memory. That, or you're deliberately twisting the events of both games in your favour. Either way, go replay the games, read a summary or something, and then get back to me once you get your facts straight. I have better things to do than to point out stuff that should be as plain as day if you actually remembered the events.
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On October 25 2010 00:05 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 23:37 Deckkie wrote:On October 24 2010 23:34 tacrats wrote:On October 24 2010 23:31 Mothxal wrote:On October 24 2010 23:25 tacrats wrote:On October 24 2010 23:21 MrLonely wrote:
Legitimate storymaking technique. Stephen King doesn't know how his stories will end either, and I consider him a pretty good writer. Stephen King is a good writer and can pull that off. If WoL was any indication (ex: magix saves kerrigan raynor carries her off into the sunset), blizz doesnt have good writers anymore. So the fact that they have no idea what they are doing is going to result in a terrible, terrible story. Just because you disliked the single-player, don't pretend the rest of the world agrees. Hardly any writers know how a story will end. In fact, knowing often makes for a worse story, since then the story can be somewhat artificial and drawn out, since the pacing might not be accounted for in the original idea. any self-respecting individual would agree sc2 SP sucked. You should see the SP more as a movie. the books go way deeper into the story line. well at least they did for SC and BW. And I personally did like the SP a lot. (Maybe some more baseless missions) Ignoring the concept that a story can be fine if you need supplementary material for it to not suck: Calling something a movie doesn't excuse it from having a horrible storyline. Sure, movies can have simpler storylines because they just don't have the room for anything more complex, but there's still good and bad storytelling within movies. Example? Compare Star Wars IV to I. IV didn't have a complex storyline, but it had solid characters that acted out their parts with nothing out of character. I had a much more complex storyline that couldn't be fully understood without reading the books, a set of characters that (outside of being impossible to care about) did not always make sense, such as the wise Jedi master Qui-Gon using the force to cheat and browbeat people every other scene, and completely worthless exposition with the little organisms that cause the force. Sound familiar? That's right, Starcraft 1's Terran campaign was far from complex (Zerg attack, ally with rebels, overthrow government, discover leader to be evil), but all of the characters acted in line and you could have emotions for all of them, whether pitying Kerrigan or hating Mengsk. Most of all, that story was IT. There wasn't anything else you should go read for clarification, except possibly the lore guide if you felt ambitious. Then, in SC2, you have Raynor going back on his promise during Mission 8 of the SC:BW Zerg Campaign (True Colors; he promises to kill Kerrigan some day) and suddenly falls back in love with her for no apparent reason, you get near-emotionless characters like Matt Horner to empathize with, the Overmind is retroactively written to be a poor being working against fate, and none of it makes any more sense than Mengsk sending out Tychus with a bomb strapped to him with orders to kill KERRIGAN, not Raynor. The SC2 story was horrible, and something Blizzard should be ashamed of. None of this is to say that the individual missions were bad. In fact, they were all very enjoyable, and on average better than the SC1 missions barring any influence of story (it feels cooler to be capturing the Overmind than bringing Medics to certain locations). The story just happens to be awful. Also, if this hasn't been done already, could I request a mod send this to the SC2 SP subforum?
Man! You make it sound really terrible!
I guess that's because it is.....
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On October 26 2010 10:26 Billy_ wrote:
It seems like you need to refresh your memory. That, or you're deliberately twisting the events of both games in your favour. Either way, go replay the games, read a summary or something, and then get back to me once you get your facts straight. I have better things to do than to point out stuff that should be as plain as day if you actually remembered the events.
More likely you are confusing one of those books with SC BW. If I am wrong at least have the guts to point it out. This is both weak and not bringing this discussion any further. Do you really want to bait me into a 'yes' 'no' 'yes' 'no'?
Mission 5 in Starcraft is the first mission with Kerrigan. Never does it become clear Kerrigan and Raynor already know each other. Mission 7 is where Kerrigan gets abandoned. Only mission where Kerrigan and Raynor interact, and actually meet personally, is mission 5. Raynor calls her 'darling' once. But obviously this is just macho nonsense. She even tells him to shut up, which was probably exactly what Raynor expected her to say.
And it's not just that where the story is messed up.
The whole thing about the overmind being tricked and Tassadar still being alive and there being some mysterious force and some mysterious prophecy is all bad. SC2 is made for people that were 2 years old when Starcraft was released.
It is stupid you people even try to argue against all this. Metzen would probably proudly admit he retconned everything. Look at some of the questions he got at all those lore Q&As. He just makes a big joke out of it.
Tychus line is weak.
Artifact line is weak.
Overmind being tricked is weak.
Tassadar being alive is weak.
Raynor being in love with Kerrigan is weak.
And I bet Metzen would gladly admit all of this he made up only a few years ago. When they made SC BW they already made a sequel for Warcraft. Don't tell me he couldn't have known there was going to be a sequel to SC and BW. And even if he didn't know, you have to use your writing skill to mold the plot the way you want it without it getting weak. That's the whole thing about plot writing that takes skill. You have to wrestle with it and tame it. A story has a mind of it's own and you have to trick it into the direction you want it to go in. That takes skill. You can't just whisk stuff over and leave gaping plot holes or retcon stuff. You have to set up a story. If everything that happens only depends on everything that is on the next page/next mission, then your story sucks, period. It is about introducing a character on page 40 that becomes essential way at the end of the story. If you don't know how the story ends you have to finish it once and then redo it completely or you are at the mercy of the story itself, for the good or the bad.
You people are just denying the art in writing plot lines, calling plot holes and retcon 'character development'.
Go watch those youtube videos someone else linked by broodmywarcraft. He points out a lot of stuff.
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This was also the case in the Original. Kerrigan's infestation was a late addition, or in other words Infested Kerrigan/TheQueen of Blades was not part of the original story of StarCraft.
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On October 26 2010 11:00 Xtar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 10:26 Billy_ wrote:
It seems like you need to refresh your memory. That, or you're deliberately twisting the events of both games in your favour. Either way, go replay the games, read a summary or something, and then get back to me once you get your facts straight. I have better things to do than to point out stuff that should be as plain as day if you actually remembered the events. More likely you are confusing one of those books with SC BW. If I am wrong at least have the guts to point it out. This is both weak and not bringing this discussion any further. Do you really want to bait me into a 'yes' 'no' 'yes' 'no'? Mission 5 in Starcraft is the first mission with Kerrigan. Never does it become clear Kerrigan and Raynor already know each other. Mission 7 is where Kerrigan gets abandoned. Only mission where Kerrigan and Raynor interact, and actually meet personally, is mission 5. Raynor calls her 'darling' once. But obviously this is just macho nonsense. She even tells him to shut up, which was probably exactly what Raynor expected her to say. And it's not just that where the story is messed up. The whole thing about the overmind being tricked and Tassadar still being alive and there being some mysterious force and some mysterious prophecy is all bad. SC2 is made for people that were 2 years old when Starcraft was released. It is stupid you people even try to argue against all this. Metzen would probably proudly admit he retconned everything. Look at some of the questions he got at all those lore Q&As. He just makes a big joke out of it.
You still missed a spot. And Jim didn't go after her on Char just because he a had a bit of a crush. Saying it was all about love is just absurd, I agree, but it's oversimplfying Jims character. You may recall that Jims last words to her were somewhat concerned and protective, yes? And the way he talked about her afterwards, and his new emnity with Arcturus in which Kerrigan took place in the front and centre? And we still don't know whether or not Kerrigan 'just wants to be friends'
For the record "I'll be the man to kill you some day" turns into, "We gotta stop her Matt, no matter what shes after" turns into "I can give you what you always wanted... a chance to rescue Sarah Kerrigan".
If you still can't see how Jim went from caring, to hating to hopeful by now then I give up, you win, gg . If you can see my point but still don't agree, then please, feel free to continue discussing.
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On October 26 2010 11:03 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
This was also the case in the Original. Kerrigan's infestation was a late addition, or in other words Infested Kerrigan/TheQueen of Blades was not part of the original story of StarCraft.
Just out of curiosity, what is your source for this information?
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Kerrigan being infested doesn't contradict anything. But yes, bringing back people that are presumed dead is, in my opinion, a weak plot device that we see all too often.
Worse is, having Kerrigan be infested in Starcraft but then retconning into that she is dead.
Did Metzen actually ever say he didn't know Kerrigan was going to become infested before SC BW was finished. If this is so, I believe it. But if he did plan Kerrigan to be infested, would the Starcraft storyline have been different? Should it have been different? What's the plot hole? It's just a bit cowardly in not letting your characters die.
If I had to bet I'd say he didn't know as Kerrigan was such a minor character in Starcraft. Makes no sense to not give her more air time.
You still missed a spot.
But you have no point? You are afraid your argument is too easy to rebut to present it to me or what? I don't see your point since you either don't have one, or refuse to give it.
I am oversimplifying Raynor's character? Come on. Even Starcraft and BW are extremely shallow. These are all flat characters. There's nothing more to these characters then that what is obvious.
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On October 26 2010 11:16 Xtar wrote:Kerrigan being infested doesn't contradict anything. But yes, bringing back people that are presumed dead is, in my opinion, a weak plot device that we see all too often. Worse is, having Kerrigan be infested in Starcraft but then retconning into that she is dead. Did Metzen actually ever say he didn't know Kerrigan was going to become infested before SC BW was finished. If this is so, I believe it. But if he did plan Kerrigan to be infested, would the Starcraft storyline have been different? Should it have been different? What's the plot hole? It's just a bit cowardly in not letting your characters die. If I had to bet I'd say he didn't know as Kerrigan was such a minor character in Starcraft. Makes no sense to not give her more air time. But you have no point? You are afraid your argument is too easy to rebut to present it to me or what? I don't see your point since you either don't have one, or refuse to give it. I am oversimplifying Raynor's character? Come on. Even Starcraft and BW are extremely shallow. These are all flat characters. There's nothing more to these characters then that what is obvious.
Then stop pretending he did it all for a high school crush.
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On October 26 2010 05:19 Krigwin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 04:13 Treemonkeys wrote:
Kerrigan was once human and was betrayed horribly by Raynor's arch enemy Mengsk, so it doesn't make much sense to compare her to Sauron. It makes perfect sense to me that Raynor would become more and more regretful/sad/bitter as time went on and he watched how Mengsk used her as a stepping stone to gain power. Plus he probably had no idea she could be saved anyways, didn't he decide to try and save after Mengsk's son convinced him? I was actually thinking of the Overmind when I made that comparison, but it does apply somewhat to Kerrigan. The whole of BW established her as an evil mastermind that manipulated everyone around her, including Raynor, in her rise to ultimate power. Now we're supposed to believe that this hitherto diabolical villain is actually just an unwilling pawn to some unbeknownst greater power? And the whole sudden switch to rescuing her plot is the entire character derailment. Raynor had, over the entirety of SC-BW, grown to swear death on Kerrigan. Even if she could be de-infested it doesn't excuse her crimes for which Raynor swore revenge. To suddenly discard this and attempt to "save" her is massively out of character unless you have some radically different interpretation, which is your right of course, but it's not very supported by actual ingame material.
She got the "vision" from the overmind right after it died. So she did know about the dark voice.
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storyline was a little disappointing since there was so much room for interesting threads and character arcs; but I felt like BW was incredibly shallow and predictable as well.
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Also, I have nothing to say about Tassadar and the overmind. I believe that they were brought back for a reason and the the current plot holes exist for a reason which is yet to be revealed. Asking me to evaluate them when even Blizzard are yet to iron out the specific details is unreasonable.
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On October 26 2010 11:22 Billy_ wrote:
Then stop pretending he did it all for a high school crush.
I am not saying anything else but that the plot is bad. Ooh and the dialogue is actually worse.
But if you really want me to say it, it deas seem to me that the writers did try us to convince that he had exactly that. He has a picture of her and at least one other character seems to think Raynor has irrational reasons for trying to save her. I have a picture of just one girl on my PC. Guess why? What about you? You have single picture of a business college you met once and talked to over the phone several times 4 years ago just because she looks hot?
That is exactly why they made Zeratul say they need Kerrigan to save the universe. To give him an anterior motive. And that's where the whole main plot line goes off the cliff as well.
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On October 26 2010 11:32 Xtar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 11:22 Billy_ wrote:
Then stop pretending he did it all for a high school crush. You have single picture of a business college you met once and talked to over the phone several times 4 years ago just because she looks hot?
This is a bad analogy. Stuff happened which you won't see just by watching the briefing room conversations on youtube.
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I expected nothing less, is the guy who did the interview a writer for starcraft? I didn't think so, unless you are writing the story, you are going to be out of the loop. This happens in all games, they hire a writer and they might not know the story although they will have a general idea of what will happen because they pitched the idea. I'm guessing he is saying he doesn't know what's going to happen because he really doesn't know, only the people working on the story full time will have the answer to that and they won't reveal anything because everything is subject to change, as is the writing process.
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On October 24 2010 23:32 HardcoreBilly wrote:
J.R.R. Tolkien made up Lord of the Rings as he wrote.
He also spent over a decade revising his books.
WoL story has not impressed me, and the writing (Dialogue) was a lot worse then I hoped for.
+ Show Spoiler +It's time to kick this revolution into OVERDRIVE.
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On October 26 2010 11:35 Billy_ wrote:
This is a bad analogy. Stuff happened which you won't see just by watching the briefing room conversations on youtube.
If you aren't going to say anything then stop posting. 'Stuff happened, you are just ignorant/have a bad memory bla bla'. Come on. At least be a honest debater.
Let me also point out Metzen said "It's basically a story about a guy and a girl." Ooh one other great line: "The characters from a decade ago had to be updated because the gaming audience became more 'sophisticated' ".
And it isn't a bad analogy. You have pictures of loved ones. And when they are not family they aren't good friends but romantic interests. You don't have pictures of your arch enemies or people that betrayed you. Churchill didn't have a picture of Hitler on his desk, I can tell you that. And a betrayal is a painful experience. And that's actually one more thing in which BW and SC2 differ. In BW Kerrigan is just changed. In SC2 her body his hijacked. Obviously Raynor in BW believed she wasn't hijacked. And obviously Blizzard wants the player to think Kerrigan is Raynor's romantic interest. That's retcon or otherwise it would have been there in SC.
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On October 26 2010 11:41 Xtar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 11:35 Billy_ wrote:
This is a bad analogy. Stuff happened which you won't see just by watching the briefing room conversations on youtube. If you aren't going to say anything then stop posting. 'Stuff happened, you are just ignorant/have a bad memory bla bla'. Come on. At least be a honest debater. Let me also point out Metzen said "It's basically a story about a guy and a girl." Ooh one other great line: "The characters from a decade ago had to be updated because the gaming audience became more 'sophisticated' ".
My personal favourites include "I have no (successful) experience in telling stories and I think that my way is the best way", "I know everything, I'm right and everyone else is wrong".
I am been honest. You haven't referenced a single thing which happened outside of the briefing rooms which is where half, or even the majority of the character development took place. I might take you seriously when you start accounting for the whole story and not just the bits that favour your perspective.
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That's a lie. The only time they talk is when Kerrigan says "you pig" which I already talked about. Also, I don't have to reference anything. If I forget stuff, which I haven't because I even checked missions played out on youtube before I made my first post to make sure what I remembered was correct, you are supposed to point it out.
Not doing so is dishonest. Denying this is lying. Acting like you forgot I mentioned the 'You pig'-dialogue, which you can't possibly have forgotten, is lying.
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Pretty sure that you're a troll. I have half the terran campaign script memorised.
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On October 26 2010 05:25 Treemonkeys wrote:
She unwillingly became a zerg, so yeah, she was an unwilling pawn. Everything she did in BW were things she obviously wouldn't have done as a human, when she was human she didn't even want to use the zerg against her enemies. This is all in game material, from SC and BW no less.
Actually if you think about it further, in SC/BW, Rayner went through a transition where he tried to interact with Kerrigan and slowly had to realize that she was not the same. If he learned that it would be possible to make her human again, it makes complete sense that he would change his mind about killing her.
I don't know how many times I'm going to have to repeat this before people get it: no it doesn't, because Raynor swore to kill her. Why? Because she betrayed him, Fenix, Mengsk, Zeratul, the rest of the Protoss, and killed basically all of his friends and is a threat to his entire race. Then in WoL Raynor does a complete 180 from "if I have to kill you myself" to "I will save you no matter the cost". This is called character inconsistency. It would've been different if they at least put in a dialogue between Raynor and Horner before the last mission explaining Raynor's logical motivations for rescuing her or something instead of shoehorning in these terrible contrived side plots ie; schoolboy romance and ancient prophecy nonsense.
On October 26 2010 08:46 Honeybadger wrote:
Why? the music and overall feel or the characters is spot-on.
I'm being facetious, I just really like Firefly.
On October 26 2010 10:26 Billy_ wrote:
It seems like you need to refresh your memory. That, or you're deliberately twisting the events of both games in your favour. Either way, go replay the games, read a summary or something, and then get back to me once you get your facts straight. I have better things to do than to point out stuff that should be as plain as day if you actually remembered the events.
How ironic for you to say this when you're the one deliberately going with Blizzard's retcons and shoehorning in romances and prophecy nonsense where there were none beforehand so it can go with your romanticized view of what the plot should be. Also, "you need to refresh your memory" is not rhetoric either. In logical discourse you present ideas and evidence, not your half-assed interpretations and fanboy opinions.
By the way, I replayed both games the day before SC2 launched, so I'm not speaking from nostalgia, WoL really is that awful in comparison.
On October 26 2010 11:37 Nightfall.589 wrote:He also spent over a decade revising his books. WoL story has not impressed me, and the writing (Dialogue) was a lot worse then I hoped for. + Show Spoiler +It's time to kick this revolution into OVERDRIVE.
+ Show Spoiler +Because some things... ARE JUST WORTH FIGHTING FOR.
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On October 26 2010 11:58 Krigwin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 05:25 Treemonkeys wrote:
She unwillingly became a zerg, so yeah, she was an unwilling pawn. Everything she did in BW were things she obviously wouldn't have done as a human, when she was human she didn't even want to use the zerg against her enemies. This is all in game material, from SC and BW no less.
Actually if you think about it further, in SC/BW, Rayner went through a transition where he tried to interact with Kerrigan and slowly had to realize that she was not the same. If he learned that it would be possible to make her human again, it makes complete sense that he would change his mind about killing her. I don't know how many times I'm going to have to repeat this before people get it: no it doesn't, because Raynor swore to kill her. Why? Because she betrayed him, Fenix, Mengsk, Zeratul, the rest of the Protoss, and killed basically all of his friends and is a threat to his entire race. Then in WoL Raynor does a complete 180 from "if I have to kill you myself" to "I will save you no matter the cost". This is called character inconsistency. It would've been different if they at least put in a dialogue between Raynor and Horner before the last mission explaining Raynor's logical motivations for rescuing her or something instead of shoehorning in these terrible contrived side plots ie; schoolboy romance and ancient prophecy nonsense. Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 08:46 Honeybadger wrote:
Why? the music and overall feel or the characters is spot-on. I'm being facetious, I just really like Firefly. Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 10:26 Billy_ wrote:
It seems like you need to refresh your memory. That, or you're deliberately twisting the events of both games in your favour. Either way, go replay the games, read a summary or something, and then get back to me once you get your facts straight. I have better things to do than to point out stuff that should be as plain as day if you actually remembered the events. How ironic for you to say this when you're the one deliberately going with Blizzard's retcons and shoehorning in romances and prophecy nonsense where there were none beforehand so it can go with your romanticized view of what the plot should be. Also, "you need to refresh your memory" is not rhetoric either. In logical discourse you present ideas and evidence, not your half-assed interpretations and fanboy opinions. By the way, I replayed both games the day before SC2 launched, so I'm not speaking from nostalgia, WoL really is that awful in comparison. Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 11:37 Nightfall.589 wrote:He also spent over a decade revising his books. WoL story has not impressed me, and the writing (Dialogue) was a lot worse then I hoped for. + Show Spoiler +It's time to kick this revolution into OVERDRIVE. + Show Spoiler +Because some things... ARE JUST WORTH FIGHTING FOR.
Haven't I already said something to the effect of people like you not been worth my time? Think it had something to do with this weird over zealous Star Trek nerd complex with a little bit aspergers on top way of logic that you've displayed.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On October 26 2010 12:06 Billy_ wrote:
Haven't I already said something to the effect of people like you not been worth my time? Think it had something to do with this weird over zealous Star Trek nerd complex with a little bit aspergers on top way of logic that you've displayed.
"with a little bit aspergers on top way of logic" wat? I don't even know what the hell you're saying here. Must be because you're in another league of intellectual sophistication - you know, the kind that gets so upset and personally offended when internet strangers criticize a video game they resort to childish epithets and personal insults. And someone who memorizes scripts from video games calling someone else a nerd?
And using aspergers as an insult? The hell? Go back to 4chan, kid.
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Whole debate can basically be boiled down to people inferring different things based on what the characters had said and done. Blizzard was pretty much fucked mo matter what they did. If Kerrigan was killed by Jim, people would whine. If she was saved by Jim people would whine. If she continued roflstomping everyone for the whole series people would whine. I've already explained my views on everything, and why there are other things going on than a bit of a crush that Jim once had before she was taken, and why it's consistent and in character. Further conversation is pointless. We will never see eye to eye.
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On October 26 2010 11:58 Krigwin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 05:25 Treemonkeys wrote:
She unwillingly became a zerg, so yeah, she was an unwilling pawn. Everything she did in BW were things she obviously wouldn't have done as a human, when she was human she didn't even want to use the zerg against her enemies. This is all in game material, from SC and BW no less.
Actually if you think about it further, in SC/BW, Rayner went through a transition where he tried to interact with Kerrigan and slowly had to realize that she was not the same. If he learned that it would be possible to make her human again, it makes complete sense that he would change his mind about killing her. I don't know how many times I'm going to have to repeat this before people get it: no it doesn't, because Raynor swore to kill her. Why? Because she betrayed him, Fenix, Mengsk, Zeratul, the rest of the Protoss, and killed basically all of his friends and is a threat to his entire race. Then in WoL Raynor does a complete 180 from "if I have to kill you myself" to "I will save you no matter the cost". This is called character inconsistency. It would've been different if they at least put in a dialogue between Raynor and Horner before the last mission explaining Raynor's logical motivations for rescuing her or something instead of shoehorning in these terrible contrived side plots ie; schoolboy romance and ancient prophecy nonsense. Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 08:46 Honeybadger wrote:
Why? the music and overall feel or the characters is spot-on. I'm being facetious, I just really like Firefly. Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 10:26 Billy_ wrote:
It seems like you need to refresh your memory. That, or you're deliberately twisting the events of both games in your favour. Either way, go replay the games, read a summary or something, and then get back to me once you get your facts straight. I have better things to do than to point out stuff that should be as plain as day if you actually remembered the events. How ironic for you to say this when you're the one deliberately going with Blizzard's retcons and shoehorning in romances and prophecy nonsense where there were none beforehand so it can go with your romanticized view of what the plot should be. Also, "you need to refresh your memory" is not rhetoric either. In logical discourse you present ideas and evidence, not your half-assed interpretations and fanboy opinions. By the way, I replayed both games the day before SC2 launched, so I'm not speaking from nostalgia, WoL really is that awful in comparison. Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 11:37 Nightfall.589 wrote:He also spent over a decade revising his books. WoL story has not impressed me, and the writing (Dialogue) was a lot worse then I hoped for. + Show Spoiler +It's time to kick this revolution into OVERDRIVE. + Show Spoiler +Because some things... ARE JUST WORTH FIGHTING FOR.
This is text book character development. I guess nobody can change how the feel about things that happened in the past and maybe have an outcome that is different than one they previously believed in. I guess having a flat dull character is the better than maybe someone that changed their mind about something years later?
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This is text book character development. I guess nobody can change how the feel about things that happened in the past and maybe have an outcome that is different than one they previously believed in. I guess having a flat dull character is the better than maybe someone that changed their mind about something years later?
Doing a complete turn-around on a character's feelings without any good explanation isn't character development - it's shitty writing.
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I've never read the books, but I thought that a romantic relationship between Raynor and Kerrigan was implied on some degree (or at least that's how I felt when I first played through the SC story). Raynor was obviously upset at Arcturus for marooning her to be killed and it's clear that he had some hopes that she could be redeemed. These hopes were pretty much crushed in the storyline of Brood War where she basically stabs everyone in the back and nearly wipes them out. After she killed Fenix, it's then that Raynor came to the conclusion that there isn't any hope for redemption, which is why he vows to be the one to kill her. Of course through all this, he did still want Kerrigan back, not the Queen of Blades, but the Kerrigan he knew before her infestation. His resolve was founded on the belief that she would never again be who she was before her infestation.
Wings of Liberty presents a way for him to get that Kerrigan back, which is why he finds hope again and decides to save her. What he sees before him isn't the murderous Queen of Blades, but rather the girl and comrade he marooned on a planet swarming with Zerg all those years ago. He couldn't save her then so he saved her now.
The Kerrigan-Raynor dynamic always seemed pretty straightforward to me and that's how I saw it. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's just my 2 cents on that issue...
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hey, you know what?
Michael Ende never knew that his story would never end, when he started writing The Never-Ending Story...
You get it? Because it's a never-ending sto...... yeah ok, not funny, nvm...
Anyway, I didn't think that the Sp was so bad, of course there were some really 'cliché' turn of events, but for a video game storyline, it's still really good IMO. Even though some people hated it, some people, like me, enjoyed it.
If they already had the complete plot set in mind, I don't think they'd do a better story, it would probably only feel like side quests everywhere just to get to the main event which concludes everything...
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On October 26 2010 12:53 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +
This is text book character development. I guess nobody can change how the feel about things that happened in the past and maybe have an outcome that is different than one they previously believed in. I guess having a flat dull character is the better than maybe someone that changed their mind about something years later?
Doing a complete turn-around on a character's feelings without any good explanation isn't character development - it's shitty writing.
There is plenty of good explanation in the storyboard to justify why he changed his mind about Kerrigan. Kerrigan had a chance to kill Raynor in the past and she let him go. There is even more stuff going on that wasn't included in WOL but will hopefully be revealed later on in the current series.
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On October 25 2010 00:15 mutantmagnet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 23:22 Theston wrote:
Of course they don't.
Do you think J.K. Rowling knew how her seventh book ended when she wrote the first? Tolkien and JMS knew how to plan out their story arcs. Rowling wasn't even planning to make an arc from the get go, Blizzard was and should've planned better. Their writing department has become terrible compared to what it was during the SC/BW era but I'm hoping this bit of news means they've heeded the backlash to WoL narrative and retcons and are in the midst of trying to make it better. As bad as their department has become I find it hard to believe they didn't have a preplanning phase that sets the general idea of how each campaign should play out. Regardless I won't buy HotS if the story gets bad reviews because that was my primary reason for buying WoL and the narrative in general was low quality elementary school material and the revisions and newest extrapolations on SC/BW pissed me off.
Just caught this thread, and a minor correction here is that Rowling did in fact know a general arc and had the final chapter for book 7 written very early on in the series (iirc she wrote it while she wrote book 1).
And my god, how awesome would it be if Blizz got Straczynski to write for StarCraft. I would probably cream myself and definitely actually play the SP.
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On October 26 2010 11:14 LegendaryZ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 11:03 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
This was also the case in the Original. Kerrigan's infestation was a late addition, or in other words Infested Kerrigan/TheQueen of Blades was not part of the original story of StarCraft. Just out of curiosity, what is your source for this information?
Blizzcast #2, linked here. An interview with Chris Metzen.
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On October 26 2010 12:53 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +
This is text book character development. I guess nobody can change how the feel about things that happened in the past and maybe have an outcome that is different than one they previously believed in. I guess having a flat dull character is the better than maybe someone that changed their mind about something years later?
Doing a complete turn-around on a character's feelings without any good explanation isn't character development - it's shitty writing.
If you can think of a better example than Kerrigan becoming indispensible according to Zeratul or Valarians chance of removing her infestation so that she would hopefully be beack to how she was before she became bad then I'm all ears.
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On October 26 2010 12:41 Baarn wrote:
This is text book character development. I guess nobody can change how the feel about things that happened in the past and maybe have an outcome that is different than one they previously believed in. I guess having a flat dull character is the better than maybe someone that changed their mind about something years later?
Not really. Proper character development is when a character progresses from A->B->C->D through a logical series of events. When a character abruptly changes from A->D with no real explanation as to why, then it's character inconsistency.
There are plenty of reasons why Raynor could have changed his urge to kill Kerrigan, but they were never explained in the game. He suddenly loses his goal for revenge, forgets about Fenix, and just mopes around, and this is all before he meets with Valerian. Maybe a novel might explain it, but to me the fact that you have to use an outside source to justify something is bad form. We paid $60 for this game; it should be a complete experience. Even moreso considering that Blizzard kept trying to justify their decision to split the game into three. It's very bad when you have to force players to fork over extra money for books just to properly tell a story, especially since we're expected to pay $80 or more for the next two parts.
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On October 26 2010 13:26 Spawkuring wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 12:41 Baarn wrote:
This is text book character development. I guess nobody can change how the feel about things that happened in the past and maybe have an outcome that is different than one they previously believed in. I guess having a flat dull character is the better than maybe someone that changed their mind about something years later? Not really. Proper character development is when a character progresses from A->B->C->D through a logical series of events. When a character abruptly changes from A->D with no real explanation as to why, then it's character inconsistency. There are plenty of reasons why Raynor could have changed his urge to kill Kerrigan, but they were never explained in the game. He suddenly loses his goal for revenge, forgets about Fenix, and just mopes around, and this is all before he meets with Valerian. Maybe a novel might explain it, but to me the fact that you have to use an outside source to justify something is bad form. We paid $60 for this game; it should be a complete experience. Even moreso considering that Blizzard kept trying to justify their decision to split the game into three. It's very bad when you have to force players to fork over extra money for books just to properly tell a story, especially since we're expected to pay $80 or more for the next two parts.
You'll get your complete experience once the next 2 expansions are complete. I'm confident it will all be tied in for the ones that missed out on the prior games and that storyline with it.
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On October 26 2010 13:28 Baarn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 13:26 Spawkuring wrote:On October 26 2010 12:41 Baarn wrote:
This is text book character development. I guess nobody can change how the feel about things that happened in the past and maybe have an outcome that is different than one they previously believed in. I guess having a flat dull character is the better than maybe someone that changed their mind about something years later? Not really. Proper character development is when a character progresses from A->B->C->D through a logical series of events. When a character abruptly changes from A->D with no real explanation as to why, then it's character inconsistency. There are plenty of reasons why Raynor could have changed his urge to kill Kerrigan, but they were never explained in the game. He suddenly loses his goal for revenge, forgets about Fenix, and just mopes around, and this is all before he meets with Valerian. Maybe a novel might explain it, but to me the fact that you have to use an outside source to justify something is bad form. We paid $60 for this game; it should be a complete experience. Even moreso considering that Blizzard kept trying to justify their decision to split the game into three. It's very bad when you have to force players to fork over extra money for books just to properly tell a story, especially since we're expected to pay $80 or more for the next two parts. You'll get your complete experience once the next 2 expansions are complete. I'm confident it will all be tied in for the ones that missed out on the prior games and that storyline with it.
Blizzard advertised WoL as a full experience, therefore I'm going to judge it as one. And even if they didn't hype it as such, I still would judge it as a complete product because it costs as much as one ($10 more than a complete product to be exact).
And to be honest, I fail to see why we need HotS to explain why Jim lost his thirst for revenge. WoL could have easily done that seeing as how Jim Raynor was the goddamn main character of it. 30 missions and numerous cinematics and Blizzard couldn't take the time to explain why Jim apparently doesn't give a shit about Fenix anymore? That's just too jarring for me.
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for all intent and purpose, raynor killed kerrigan the queen of blades and saved kerrigan the ghost
so i don't see what's wrong with that. he still hates the QoB's guts during WoL.. sounds like the same old raynor to me
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On October 26 2010 13:33 Spawkuring wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 13:28 Baarn wrote:On October 26 2010 13:26 Spawkuring wrote:On October 26 2010 12:41 Baarn wrote:
This is text book character development. I guess nobody can change how the feel about things that happened in the past and maybe have an outcome that is different than one they previously believed in. I guess having a flat dull character is the better than maybe someone that changed their mind about something years later? Not really. Proper character development is when a character progresses from A->B->C->D through a logical series of events. When a character abruptly changes from A->D with no real explanation as to why, then it's character inconsistency. There are plenty of reasons why Raynor could have changed his urge to kill Kerrigan, but they were never explained in the game. He suddenly loses his goal for revenge, forgets about Fenix, and just mopes around, and this is all before he meets with Valerian. Maybe a novel might explain it, but to me the fact that you have to use an outside source to justify something is bad form. We paid $60 for this game; it should be a complete experience. Even moreso considering that Blizzard kept trying to justify their decision to split the game into three. It's very bad when you have to force players to fork over extra money for books just to properly tell a story, especially since we're expected to pay $80 or more for the next two parts. You'll get your complete experience once the next 2 expansions are complete. I'm confident it will all be tied in for the ones that missed out on the prior games and that storyline with it. Blizzard advertised WoL as a full experience, therefore I'm going to judge it as one. And even if they didn't hype it as such, I still would judge it as a complete product because it costs as much as one ($10 more than a complete product to be exact). And to be honest, I fail to see why we need HotS to explain why Jim lost his thirst for revenge. WoL could have easily done that seeing as how Jim Raynor was the goddamn main character of it. 30 missions and numerous cinematics and Blizzard couldn't take the time to explain why Jim apparently doesn't give a shit about Fenix anymore? That's just too jarring for me.
Is Fenix the only reason you found the character development jarring?
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United States793 Posts
On October 24 2010 23:25 tacrats wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 23:21 MrLonely wrote:
Legitimate storymaking technique. Stephen King doesn't know how his stories will end either, and I consider him a pretty good writer. Stephen King is a good writer and can pull that off. If WoL was any indication (ex: magix saves kerrigan raynor carries her off into the sunset), blizz doesnt have good writers anymore. So the fact that they have no idea what they are doing is going to result in a terrible, terrible story.
This isn't really fair... I don't think its that outlandish to think that a species of near limitless technological advancement created an item the inner workings of which is unexplainable using the scientific knowledge accumulated by the races in question.
Arthur C. Clarke formulated the following three "laws" of prediction:
When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is probably wrong.
The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
The last part of that quote is often mistakenly attributed to Einstein.
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On October 26 2010 11:58 Krigwin wrote:. Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 08:46 Honeybadger wrote:
Why? the music and overall feel or the characters is spot-on. I'm being facetious, I just really like Firefly.
My best friend looks and sounds exactly like mal. It's amazing.
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On October 26 2010 13:33 Spawkuring wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 13:28 Baarn wrote:On October 26 2010 13:26 Spawkuring wrote:On October 26 2010 12:41 Baarn wrote:
This is text book character development. I guess nobody can change how the feel about things that happened in the past and maybe have an outcome that is different than one they previously believed in. I guess having a flat dull character is the better than maybe someone that changed their mind about something years later? Not really. Proper character development is when a character progresses from A->B->C->D through a logical series of events. When a character abruptly changes from A->D with no real explanation as to why, then it's character inconsistency. There are plenty of reasons why Raynor could have changed his urge to kill Kerrigan, but they were never explained in the game. He suddenly loses his goal for revenge, forgets about Fenix, and just mopes around, and this is all before he meets with Valerian. Maybe a novel might explain it, but to me the fact that you have to use an outside source to justify something is bad form. We paid $60 for this game; it should be a complete experience. Even moreso considering that Blizzard kept trying to justify their decision to split the game into three. It's very bad when you have to force players to fork over extra money for books just to properly tell a story, especially since we're expected to pay $80 or more for the next two parts. You'll get your complete experience once the next 2 expansions are complete. I'm confident it will all be tied in for the ones that missed out on the prior games and that storyline with it. Blizzard advertised WoL as a full experience, therefore I'm going to judge it as one. And even if they didn't hype it as such, I still would judge it as a complete product because it costs as much as one ($10 more than a complete product to be exact). And to be honest, I fail to see why we need HotS to explain why Jim lost his thirst for revenge. WoL could have easily done that seeing as how Jim Raynor was the goddamn main character of it. 30 missions and numerous cinematics and Blizzard couldn't take the time to explain why Jim apparently doesn't give a shit about Fenix anymore? That's just too jarring for me.
Your interpretation because of cost and the reality of you willingly buying into a 3 part series to only read one book for the entire story is jarring.
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Errr, sc2 SP was bad? Are you kidding?
.......
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On October 26 2010 13:39 Francis wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 13:33 Spawkuring wrote:On October 26 2010 13:28 Baarn wrote:On October 26 2010 13:26 Spawkuring wrote:On October 26 2010 12:41 Baarn wrote:
This is text book character development. I guess nobody can change how the feel about things that happened in the past and maybe have an outcome that is different than one they previously believed in. I guess having a flat dull character is the better than maybe someone that changed their mind about something years later? Not really. Proper character development is when a character progresses from A->B->C->D through a logical series of events. When a character abruptly changes from A->D with no real explanation as to why, then it's character inconsistency. There are plenty of reasons why Raynor could have changed his urge to kill Kerrigan, but they were never explained in the game. He suddenly loses his goal for revenge, forgets about Fenix, and just mopes around, and this is all before he meets with Valerian. Maybe a novel might explain it, but to me the fact that you have to use an outside source to justify something is bad form. We paid $60 for this game; it should be a complete experience. Even moreso considering that Blizzard kept trying to justify their decision to split the game into three. It's very bad when you have to force players to fork over extra money for books just to properly tell a story, especially since we're expected to pay $80 or more for the next two parts. You'll get your complete experience once the next 2 expansions are complete. I'm confident it will all be tied in for the ones that missed out on the prior games and that storyline with it. Blizzard advertised WoL as a full experience, therefore I'm going to judge it as one. And even if they didn't hype it as such, I still would judge it as a complete product because it costs as much as one ($10 more than a complete product to be exact). And to be honest, I fail to see why we need HotS to explain why Jim lost his thirst for revenge. WoL could have easily done that seeing as how Jim Raynor was the goddamn main character of it. 30 missions and numerous cinematics and Blizzard couldn't take the time to explain why Jim apparently doesn't give a shit about Fenix anymore? That's just too jarring for me. Is Fenix the only reason you found the character development jarring?
If you mean character development as a whole, then my problems go far beyond Raynor forgetting Fenix. Some examples off the top of my head:
- Raynor forgetting Fenix and revenge
- Mengsk having no presence in the story other than randomly making minor speeches
- Every single side character having no real backstory or character. All of them are just walking archetypes. A big example of this was when Blizzard gave Stettman that extremely detailed backstory in the website, yet not a shred of it was presented in the game itself.
- Characters often seeming bipolar due to the non-linear nature of the missions. One minute Raynor is buddy-buddy with everyone, then he is screaming at them for not wanting to go to Char, then back to saving innocent lives while having an optimistic attitude, then suddenly being depressed because he's worried about Kerrigan.
- Everything about Zeratul and the prophecy rubbed me the wrong way. I don't know, but the prophecy plot device really tends to do more harm than good.
- Kerrigan losing all sense of cunning and cruelty that she had in SC1. Now is just some generic villain who spouts threatening one-liners and is more of a plot device than an actual character.
There's some more, but those are just some I can think of.
On October 26 2010 13:46 Baarn wrote:
Your interpretation because of cost and the reality of you willingly buying into a 3 part series to only read one book for the entire story is jarring.
If a person is going to write a multiple part series, then it has to be excellent from the start. Nobody reads a story that only gets good at book 3. Harry Potter wouldn't have gotten popular if the first book was complete shit. Wings of Liberty from start to finish has nothing but bland characterization, horrible plot devices like the prophecy, and horribly cheesy dialogue. Luckily its saving grace is that the actual gameplay is great, but I would never give the story good ratings other than its production quality.
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I'm sure a lot of these things you're complaining about were intentional. Kerrigan and Arcturus seem to be intended for the expansions, and Kerrigan had no reason to be cunning. If you want to know why characters were different in Broodwar, it is because the whole context was totally different.
You should save artifact #5 which leads to Valarian and do the prophecy and Matt horner missions first. Character development works out a lot better that way. That part of the nin-linearity was obviously bad.
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On October 26 2010 14:03 Francis wrote:
I'm sure a lot of these things you're complaining about were intentional. Kerrigan and Arcturus seem to be intended for the expansions, and Kerrigan had no reason to be cunning. If you want to know why characters were different in Broodwar, it is because the whole context was totally different.
You should save artifact #5 which leads to Valarian and do the prophecy and Matt horner missions first. Character development works out a lot better that way. That part of the nin-linearity was obviously bad.
Personally I disagree with that. There was plenty of room in WoL for Kerrigan and Arcturus to be dangerous because every story needs villains for heroes to interact with. I felt that a major weakness of Wings of Liberty was that Jim Raynor did nothing but kick everyones' asses with no real threat of danger, and because of that it completely ruins the fear and dangerous presence that Kerrigan and Arcturus were supposed to invoke in players. Blizzard could have easily put in a scene/mission where either Kerrigan or Arcturus put Raynor's army in extreme danger and have them barely escape, or perhaps a scene where Raynor tries to defend an objective (like an artifact) and loses it due to being outsmarted or outgunned. Either way, it would have done a lot to make the villains be more credible.
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some of these comments in the thread have me really wondering if a lot of you played all the missions in SC, BW, and WoL ... A lot of you clowns are really far off.
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It's one thing to disagree with the portrayal of characters, but you're making it look like Arcturus and Kerrigan were both irrelevent and that is simply not true at all. Arcturus had the hybrid lab and this whole Xanatos gambit with Findlay... I don't intend discussing whether or not it was well told, so save it for someone else please. And I don't know about Kerrigan, but considering her development as a villain in SCI, and the ending of BW where she ends up on top and able to crush everyone she was obviously in a position to take what she wants however she wants. And she chose her favourite method of brute force which she used while the overmind was alive, and after she had gotten back into power halfway through the Zerg campaign of Broodwar. Maybe she had some clever insights during WoL, but she was not the protagonist so we'll see what happens in HotS.
I agree that more should have been done however.
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On October 25 2010 21:00 Sixes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 19:20 -Xios wrote:On October 24 2010 23:32 HardcoreBilly wrote:J.R.R. Tolkien made up Lord of the Rings as he wrote. + Show Spoiler +It's too bad Blizzard's story writer decided to kill Tychus off. Totally unnecessary. I know this is a bit off topic, but, no, he didn't. The SilmarillionTolkien had developed a massive narrative structure over the course of his entire life, A narrative structure right from the very beggining of existence to the end of time, after the end of middle earth. The Lord of the Rings is one tiny tiny tiny tiny part of that entire story, the end of the third age with the destruction of the rings of power, of which Sauron (a mere weak creation, a servant, created by a turned/corrupted 'Ainur' named Melkor) plays a majour role in. The actual story is plotted out quite thoroughly, chronologically before and after the setting of the lord of the rings, in great detail. I've read pretty much all he has written (even the obscure stuff thats not to easy to find) and i actually find it slightly offensive to hear such a comment about Tolkien lol. The guy was a genious, spent his life work dedicated to his craft, he didn't just 'make it up as he went along'. I may be a little less of a Tolkien nerd but ... the Silmarillion was compiled by his son after his death using all of his work. So the last bit (essentially a 2 page version of the Lord of the Rings) could actually just be written after the Lord of the Rings. Also Blizzard may know the very end, just like Tolkien knew "Ring destroyed, Sauron beaten by Men, Elves leave, Realm of Men comes" that doesn't mean he knew how it would happen in any kind of detail. Not qrguing that Tolkien is a genius, just that most writers only have a barebones framework initially.
yih the Silmarillion was created by his son after his death, the silmarillion isn't actually a book in itself, its a collection of narrative works of a portion of the wider 'world forging' JRR spent his life working on, and of which he drew inspiratoin from when writing the published books he wrote, his son took on the task of puting it all together, of what he could find and piece together, writen on anything from journals to napkins, to scraps of paper e.t.c. of which he organised into as much of a coheerent structure as he could, which became the silmarillion, for the sake of his fathers wish. Ths silmarillion is an account of the overarching narrative of middle earth, but that is in itself only part of his entire vision, besides it is purely conjecture to state 'he could have written the last part after', From knowing how deeply he had developed into aspects of his world, purely for personal intentions and quite far removed from any of his officially published works, and of how much he had developed into the happenings after the end of middle earth, i would be hard pressed to believe he had 'made it up as he went along', it seem much more realistic to me that he was simply filling in the details of a wider narrative in the writing of LOTR, an episode in a series as it were.
shrug
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On October 24 2010 23:25 tacrats wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 23:21 MrLonely wrote:
Legitimate storymaking technique. Stephen King doesn't know how his stories will end either, and I consider him a pretty good writer. Stephen King is a good writer and can pull that off. If WoL was any indication (ex: magix saves kerrigan raynor carries her off into the sunset), blizz doesnt have good writers anymore. So the fact that they have no idea what they are doing is going to result in a terrible, terrible story.
So true about WoL, but then that is probably not down to bad storymaking technique but bad storywriters.
What do I hope for? Kerrigan wakes up, realises what Jim has done, shoots him in the head for being an a-hole trying to tell her how to run her life and then sets out to "re-infest" herself. Save the bad WoL-ending with a real cynical twist.
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I don't know why people keep hounding WoL's ending for being 'cliche' and Hollywood-esque. It was actually a surprise to me because the first act of basically every Blizzard RTS such as SC1 and WarCraft 3 has ended in tragedy.
I was definitely expecting Kerrigan to die, or Raynor to die, or something. When the happy ending came, it was actually a pleasant surprise that things don't have to go wrong because having a non-happy ending makes thing arbitrarily 'deep' and 'thoughtful.'
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On October 26 2010 14:27 Francis wrote:
It's one thing to disagree with the portrayal of characters, but you're making it look like Arcturus and Kerrigan were both irrelevent and that is simply not true at all. Arcturus had the hybrid lab and this whole Xanatos gambit with Findlay...
You don't know what a Xanatos gambit is. When a person executes this they always win because they have multiple objectives that are set up so that if you don't achieve one objective your other objectives are in a position to being achieved as a result of that failure.
Acturus multiple plans plans failed in every way with the exception of getting Tosh killed and that scenario is a coin toss because you as the player could've sided with Tosh instead of Nova. We won't know which choice is canon until Tosh and the Spectres are mentioned in the future campaigns.
On October 26 2010 18:37 Ocedic wrote:
I don't know why people keep hounding WoL's ending for being 'cliche' and Hollywood-esque. It was actually a surprise to me because the first act of basically every Blizzard RTS such as SC1 and WarCraft 3 has ended in tragedy.
I was definitely expecting Kerrigan to die, or Raynor to die, or something. When the happy ending came, it was actually a pleasant surprise that things don't have to go wrong because having a non-happy ending makes thing arbitrarily 'deep' and 'thoughtful.'
Citing an ending as being 'cliche' and Hollywood-esque doesn't automatically mean happy endings suck. Protoss and Terrans defeating the Overmind was a happy ending for all intents and purposes. Zerg sacking Aiur was a happy ending as well. All that mattered is if you cared about that faction achieving their objectives by the end of the campaign.
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On October 26 2010 13:46 Baarn wrote:
Your interpretation because of cost and the reality of you willingly buying into a 3 part series to only read one book for the entire story is jarring.
There's a difference between having the entire story being in only one volume of a series and having the first volume of a series having a complete story.
The first campaign of SC had a complete story, for instance. You're with a bunch of people that are abandoned by the Confederacy, you join up with Raynor and Mengsk and Kerrigan and associated rebels, a madcap scramble for survival turns into a mission to overthrow a corrupt government, the campaign ends with you overthrowing the Confederacy and Mengsk installing himself as a dictator.
See? The story was complete from start to finish, the campaign had one overarching main goal and that goal was accomplished. There were plenty of loose ends and it was clear the campaign was only one small part of a large mytharc, but for the most part the campaign had an "entire story". In WoL on the other hand you spend the entire first half working to overthrow Mengsk, who then abruptly disappears from the main plot.
As I already went over, claiming the story will be cleared up in later iterations is not a valid storytelling technique, nor is it a valid defense for the first volume sucking ass. If you really buy into this nonsense, I have a masterpiece novel I'm working on that I'm willing to sell to you one chapter at a time.
On October 26 2010 18:26 DND_Enkil wrote:
So true about WoL, but then that is probably not down to bad storymaking technique but bad storywriters.
What do I hope for? Kerrigan wakes up, realises what Jim has done, shoots him in the head for being an a-hole trying to tell her how to run her life and then sets out to "re-infest" herself. Save the bad WoL-ending with a real cynical twist.
This is much too dark for modern-day Blizzard. Maybe Blizzard 8 years ago, but not now.
More likely the story ends with a puppies-and-rainbows sunshine ending where all the good guys, Kerrigan included, team up to defeat the Big Bad Dark Voice, Mengsk has his token redemption moment (probably a heroic sacrifice), Tychus comes back and is a reluctant antagonist for a time before all is forgiven and he rejoins the gang, and in the end Raynor and Kerrigan get married on some desert planet or something and the last shot is of the two standing before a sunrise on a dune.
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On October 24 2010 23:16 Bentie wrote:
I would like to see more hybrids, Wings on Liberty only touched on them so hopefully we get a lot more on them in Hears of the Swarm, maybe a new mini-race like those fish things in Frozen Throne? I hope so.
If HotS is placed 10 years after wings, as previously hinted at, then the zerg should be controlled by the hybrid.
Since the zerg structure of command is pyramidal (Overmind -> Kerrigan/Cerebrates -> Broods), now that Kerrigan is no longer zerg, they should be going completely apeshit ? Or maybe Tassadar & the Overmind might come into play and regain control of the swarm (the hybrid not relying entirely on the zerg brood).
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I don't understand a lot of the people saying that Raynor did a complete 180 on his feelings about kerrigan. Zeratul clearly stated, and throughout the entire missions you find out that Kerrigan must survive. That's pretty damn obvious. And when Raynor finds out that he can save Kerrigan rather than kill, that's obviously the natural choice.
However, I do think we should have seen some of that logic in the conversations in the game. It's not so much as the characters don't make sense, as we just didn't hear them justify their arguments, which would have made things flow a lot better.
Raynor: It sounded like kerrigan would have to live or we're all going to die.
Horner: Okay, sir. So what do you want to do?
Raynor: Let's go to char and get the job done!
It's this kind of thing. They have unclear motivations and it makes me feel like Raynor/Horner doesn't really have any kind of plan or motivation for said plan. The writing should have been clearer.
More likely the story ends with a puppies-and-rainbows sunshine ending where all the good guys, Kerrigan included, team up to defeat the Big Bad Dark Voice, Mengsk has his token redemption moment (probably a heroic sacrifice), Tychus comes back and is a reluctant antagonist for a time before all is forgiven and he rejoins the gang, and in the end Raynor and Kerrigan get married on some desert planet or something and the last shot is of the two standing before a sunrise on a dune.
The reason Mengsk is barely in WoL is because the writing team has already told his story. I don't think Mengsk will get any redemption. It's more of a question of what will happen with Valerian Mengsk than Arcturus.
Although yes, I think this will clearly lead to everyone teaming up against the Dark Voice just like Starcraft I against the Overmind and WC3 against Archimonde. Which is a little sad. Those stories a lot more boring compared to the Brood War and The Frozen Throne stories, which were a lot more interesting IMO.
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On October 27 2010 01:28 Krigwin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 13:46 Baarn wrote:
Your interpretation because of cost and the reality of you willingly buying into a 3 part series to only read one book for the entire story is jarring. There's a difference between having the entire story being in only one volume of a series and having the first volume of a series having a complete story. The first campaign of SC had a complete story, for instance. You're with a bunch of people that are abandoned by the Confederacy, you join up with Raynor and Mengsk and Kerrigan and associated rebels, a madcap scramble for survival turns into a mission to overthrow a corrupt government, the campaign ends with you overthrowing the Confederacy and Mengsk installing himself as a dictator. See? The story was complete from start to finish, the campaign had one overarching main goal and that goal was accomplished. There were plenty of loose ends and it was clear the campaign was only one small part of a large mytharc, but for the most part the campaign had an "entire story". In WoL on the other hand you spend the entire first half working to overthrow Mengsk, who then abruptly disappears from the main plot. As I already went over, claiming the story will be cleared up in later iterations is not a valid storytelling technique, nor is it a valid defense for the first volume sucking ass. If you really buy into this nonsense, I have a masterpiece novel I'm working on that I'm willing to sell to you one chapter at a time. Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 18:26 DND_Enkil wrote:
So true about WoL, but then that is probably not down to bad storymaking technique but bad storywriters.
What do I hope for? Kerrigan wakes up, realises what Jim has done, shoots him in the head for being an a-hole trying to tell her how to run her life and then sets out to "re-infest" herself. Save the bad WoL-ending with a real cynical twist. This is much too dark for modern-day Blizzard. Maybe Blizzard 8 years ago, but not now. More likely the story ends with a puppies-and-rainbows sunshine ending where all the good guys, Kerrigan included, team up to defeat the Big Bad Dark Voice, Mengsk has his token redemption moment (probably a heroic sacrifice), Tychus comes back and is a reluctant antagonist for a time before all is forgiven and he rejoins the gang, and in the end Raynor and Kerrigan get married on some desert planet or something and the last shot is of the two standing before a sunrise on a dune.
Yeah and so what about Mengsk not being included in the ending? Valarian is more involved in the current struggle in the overall plot than his dad if you are familiar with the saga about the dark voice. You seem bitter you didn't get the ending you were hoping for with Mengsk succeeding in killing Kerrigan.
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On October 27 2010 05:17 Baarn wrote:
Yeah and so what about Mengsk not being included in the ending? Valarian is more involved in the current struggle in the overall plot than his dad if you are familiar with the saga about the dark voice. You seem bitter you didn't get the ending you were hoping for with Mengsk succeeding in killing Kerrigan.
...What? I was making a point about improper storytelling, I don't know how on Earth you got to this conclusion.
And so what? When you spend a huge part of a story building up conflict and a villain, it kind of becomes a big deal of that story to have some kind of resolution regarding that villain. Does he get his comeuppance? Does he get defeated, but runs away to fight again? Does he get killed by an even worse villain who then becomes the main antagonist? "Inexplicably disappears from the main plot and is never mentioned again" is not a valid resolution, it's disjointed, schizophrenic writing.
By the way, I already posted my ideal ending a few pages back. It's unlikely, but I'm still holding out for the "vulture tag with Tassadar" ending.
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A higher power wouldn't need to merge Toss/Zerg to overpower them.
Seems to me that Dark Voice is just the pawn of a Xel'Naga; Quite possibly Samir Duran.
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On October 27 2010 05:28 Krigwin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 05:17 Baarn wrote:
Yeah and so what about Mengsk not being included in the ending? Valarian is more involved in the current struggle in the overall plot than his dad if you are familiar with the saga about the dark voice. You seem bitter you didn't get the ending you were hoping for with Mengsk succeeding in killing Kerrigan. ...What? I was making a point about improper storytelling, I don't know how on Earth you got to this conclusion. And so what? When you spend a huge part of a story building up conflict and a villain, it kind of becomes a big deal of that story to have some kind of resolution regarding that villain. Does he get his comeuppance? Does he get defeated, but runs away to fight again? Does he get killed by an even worse villain who then becomes the main antagonist? "Inexplicably disappears from the main plot and is never mentioned again" is not a valid resolution, it's disjointed, schizophrenic writing. By the way, I already posted my ideal ending a few pages back. It's unlikely, but I'm still holding out for the "vulture tag with Tassadar" ending.
This post touches on part of the reason why Blizzard during the SC/BW era could write a better story with 10 missions than Blizzard now with 30 missions. The enemy in SC was the Confederacy which transitions into Mengsk.
In BW the enemy was the UED and the UED unlike the Taldarim who kept on threatening to do something kept on delivering on their promises even if in the end Kerrigan ended up with the last laugh.
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I have to agree with the MalVortex assessment of the SP story being completely awful beyond redemption. As a narrative it's almost as bad as any Transformers movie.
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Man it feels good to hear like-minded people talk about why they hated WoL. For a time it felt like I was on a deserted island. I've given my assessment many times, so I'll refrain from reiterating it here; suffice it to say that after playing WoL, my faith in Blizzard has significantly diminished.
Krigwin, I think I'll give Firefly a try. I've heard good things about it, but so far I haven't gotten around to watching it. I saw Serenity already (didn't realize there was a TV series prequel) and wasn't too impressed, but I hear Firefly is better. Thanks for reminding me!
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On October 24 2010 23:32 HardcoreBilly wrote:
J.R.R. Tolkien made up Lord of the Rings as he wrote.
He just watched the movie and wrote it from there
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Hopefully the overmind will have a main role in HotS, because its what made the Zerg so cool in the first place. Also, bring back the Cerebrates.
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On October 27 2010 18:13 ChimTheGrim6 wrote:
Hopefully the overmind will have a main role in HotS, because its what made the Zerg so cool in the first place. Also, bring back the Cerebrates.
are you suggesting we play through the overmind during its infancy/adolescent stage? (goddamn his post was bad)
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Hyrule19178 Posts
On October 24 2010 23:12 tacrats wrote:
At it's core we're trying to have some choice
I don't trust it. I think that they know exactly what's going to happen! Okay, not really, but that typo really bugged me :<
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so, if they don't know what they're doing I guess they're going for the default, which is "everyone let's team up and defend the magic temple from the evil XelNaga/Dark Voice and its hybrids"
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On October 30 2010 11:56 ghostunit wrote:
so, if they don't know what they're doing I guess they're going for the default, which is "everyone let's team up and defend the magic temple from the evil XelNaga/Dark Voice and its hybrids"
fuck i hate that POWER OF FRIENDSHIP GAIS BELIEVE IN URSELF!!!! :D:D:D bullshit.
they are putting too much emphasis on the xel naga threat. It should not be a big enough threat to unify all three races to join forces. Rather, SC should maintain its dark political backstabbing history in broodwar, and explore more towards inter-race conflict.
I would have liked to see kerrigan remain damned and forever infested, and have her repeat her predecessor's move of bringing in new blood from Terran or Protoss. only this time with more ambiguity of good/evil, and the pressure on raynor not the repeat history.
zeratul needs to stop being the OH SHIT TOO LATE Prophet, and back to being a fucking badass tearing shit up in the name of peace.
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Ah, another story-related thread, and I'm glad that the discussion continues. Many good points have been discussed in previous topics (e.g. here and here, and see also my own take), but the BlizzCon Q&A adds some new discussion material.
The impression I got from the panellists is that they were quite uncomfortable during the entire session, and that they'd much rather not be there. It seemed to me like they were just a bit annoyed at having to answer questions from bothersome fans about stuff that the fans care much more about than they do. Just watch when some hardcore fans recite detailed background lore from secondary and tertiary sources, it's like the panellists are just thinking, "jeez, people actually give a crap about this stuff?"
Anyway, here's what worried me most: I believe that at some point Metzen claimed that he would need at least three, better even nine full novels to properly tell the story of StarCraft (please correct me if that figure is wrong). But if that's the case, I really would have liked to know how much of those nine novels has been covered by Wings of Liberty! They kept saying that WoL has "barely scratched the surface", but if they have nine(!) novels' worth of story to go through, how can it be that the entire first third of the effort hardly scratches the surface?? Just when were they going to get into the meat of the nine novel thick story?
On a related note, many people here have expressed that the WoL campaign left them less than satisfied as far as engaging narrative and rewarding conclusion (in which the preceding missions would create a pay-off for the invested player!) was concerned. What surprises me is that some people now claim that the BlizzCon Q&A session basically tells us that we were wrong to feel disappointed. It's a strange argument; we say, "hey, WoL is an incoherent mess that doesn't make sense and feels cheap and lazy". Then Metzen says, "no, no, it isn't cheap and lazy and it makes sense", and now some people here are all like "see, see, you were wrong, it was good after all". That's just a strange way of forming opinions about what you like and dislike -- but I'm sure that Metzen & co. are thrilled by the fact that they can just tell the fans that their stuff is great and fans will buy all their sequels and toys.
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people.... I make up my stories as I go along.. blizz prolly has the gist of things down, but is tweaking things as they go along. However, writers often say that you have to know how things will end, or you can write yourself into corners.
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On a related note, many people here have expressed that the WoL campaign left them less than satisfied as far as engaging narrative and rewarding conclusion (in which the preceding missions would create a pay-off for the invested player!) was concerned. What surprises me is that some people now claim that the BlizzCon Q&A session basically tells us that we were wrong to feel disappointed. It's a strange argument; we say, "hey, WoL is an incoherent mess that doesn't make sense and feels cheap and lazy". Then Metzen says, "no, no, it isn't cheap and lazy and it makes sense", and now some people here are all like "see, see, you were wrong, it was good after all". That's just a strange way of forming opinions about what you like and dislike -- but I'm sure that Metzen & co. are thrilled by the fact that they can just tell the fans that their stuff is great and fans will buy all their sequels and toys.
Yeah I too got this impression both in the blizzcon AND while actually playing the game. The narrative part felt really botched and there were too few cool moments, I feel the first 3 missions and last 3 are really good, and this to me is because it is linear so I really felt more engaged on the rebellion part and the invasion of Char.
I don't even think the sub plots were terrible, it's just that there was no link and very little cool narative cutscenes in-between them. WoL would have been far better if the mission were in a linear sequence but with real links between each plots and give us a thrill and reason to engage into each one. That, and more cutscenes at the level of the final ones and CG movies and I'm happy.
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On November 03 2010 13:13 rezoacken wrote:Show nested quote +
On a related note, many people here have expressed that the WoL campaign left them less than satisfied as far as engaging narrative and rewarding conclusion (in which the preceding missions would create a pay-off for the invested player!) was concerned. What surprises me is that some people now claim that the BlizzCon Q&A session basically tells us that we were wrong to feel disappointed. It's a strange argument; we say, "hey, WoL is an incoherent mess that doesn't make sense and feels cheap and lazy". Then Metzen says, "no, no, it isn't cheap and lazy and it makes sense", and now some people here are all like "see, see, you were wrong, it was good after all". That's just a strange way of forming opinions about what you like and dislike -- but I'm sure that Metzen & co. are thrilled by the fact that they can just tell the fans that their stuff is great and fans will buy all their sequels and toys.
Yeah I too got this impression both in the blizzcon AND while actually playing the game. The narrative part felt really botched and there were too few cool moments, I feel the first 3 missions and last 3 are really good, and this to me is because it is linear so I really felt more engaged on the rebellion part and the invasion of Char. I don't even think the sub plots were terrible, it's just that there was no link and very little cool narative cutscenes in-between them. WoL would have been far better if the mission were in a linear sequence but with real links between each plots and give us a thrill and reason to engage into each one. That, and more cutscenes at the level of the final ones and CG movies and I'm happy.
i think you nailed it for me, the linearity is a key aspect of sc2
it's also present in sc and bw
missions where we've felt like we were watching stuff unfold were the best ones, other good mission story-wise imo, include sending broadcast, getting the last relic, and of course, zeratul prophecy arc
too much filler stuff that we can't seem to care about, including, train robbery, first few relic hunting (they are all for the sake of money as far as we knew), trashing bases with the odin, saving dr. narud (we couldn't care less about these chores)
don't get me wrong, the missions are fun, just not engaging
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On October 30 2010 12:53 Railxp wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 11:56 ghostunit wrote:
so, if they don't know what they're doing I guess they're going for the default, which is "everyone let's team up and defend the magic temple from the evil XelNaga/Dark Voice and its hybrids" fuck i hate that POWER OF FRIENDSHIP GAIS BELIEVE IN URSELF!!!! :D:D:D bullshit. they are putting too much emphasis on the xel naga threat. It should not be a big enough threat to unify all three races to join forces. Rather, SC should maintain its dark political backstabbing history in broodwar, and explore more towards inter-race conflict. I would have liked to see kerrigan remain damned and forever infested, and have her repeat her predecessor's move of bringing in new blood from Terran or Protoss. only this time with more ambiguity of good/evil, and the pressure on raynor not the repeat history. zeratul needs to stop being the OH SHIT TOO LATE Prophet, and back to being a fucking badass tearing shit up in the name of peace.
so true!!!we really dont need another war3 story in another blizzard game!!
WoL is fine caused' i dont mind raynor the charcter haunted by some past(made him somehow a mature man to me) but kerrigan needs to be the cutthroat b*tch and zaratul needs to be the 'fucking badass tearing shit up in the name of peace.'!!
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If I didn't know any better I'd have thought that the original starcrafts were a work of Shakespear, or Chirs Avelone. Yes, I am comparing Planescape Torment to William. Fun fact - Broodwar is very nonsensical, inconsistent and has plot holes all over the place. I'm pretty sure that any sort of in depth objective analysis can back that up.
On October 30 2010 12:53 Railxp wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 11:56 ghostunit wrote:
so, if they don't know what they're doing I guess they're going for the default, which is "everyone let's team up and defend the magic temple from the evil XelNaga/Dark Voice and its hybrids" fuck i hate that POWER OF FRIENDSHIP GAIS BELIEVE IN URSELF!!!! :D:D:D bullshit. they are putting too much emphasis on the xel naga threat. It should not be a big enough threat to unify all three races to join forces. Rather, SC should maintain its dark political backstabbing history in broodwar, and explore more towards inter-race conflict. I would have liked to see kerrigan remain damned and forever infested, and have her repeat her predecessor's move of bringing in new blood from Terran or Protoss. only this time with more ambiguity of good/evil, and the pressure on raynor not the repeat history. zeratul needs to stop being the OH SHIT TOO LATE Prophet, and back to being a fucking badass tearing shit up in the name of peace.
There was a lot of emphasis on the UED too, but the story wasn't about them, it was about Kerrigan. The UED were merely an obstacle to force alliances. Not all that different from the burning legion, but Broodwar had a distinctively different style than WCIII. Another fun fact - there were at least 3 alliances in the SC series before SCII.
There was also a lot of emphasis on the Zerg during WoL, but they too took a back seat to the main plot of the rebellion which is what most of the missions were about. Everything on Mar Sara, all the Tosh, Matt, and Tychus missions were about building the rebellion into an army and getting dirt on Arcturus. No dount that Valarians good PR from the Char missions as well as the broadcast on Korhal will end up ruining Arcturus which is what Jim had always wanted in the first place.
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On October 25 2010 17:01 Newbistic wrote:
The weakest link in the WoL storyline was probably when Kerrigan was revealed to no longer be the queen bitch of the universe. ORLY?
May be the defested Kerrigan is as badass as the Queen of Blades? Do we know yet?
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I'm actually thinking of doing some kind of Plinkett-style review series on Youtube to thoroughly explain why exactly the game could be called bad. Because almost every single line and element of the story and plot device and even most levels in the WoL campaign was so cringe-inducingly awful, it would be impossible to fit everything wrong with the game into one post, or even a series of posts, and few people would be likely to read it (as proven by that one great thread by Andrew on the bnet forums). Just the entire campaign comes off like it was written by a 6th-grader whose favorite movie is Transformers. The only problem is I have no idea how to make such a review funny and entertaining.
On October 27 2010 14:41 strongwind wrote:
Krigwin, I think I'll give Firefly a try. I've heard good things about it, but so far I haven't gotten around to watching it. I saw Serenity already (didn't realize there was a TV series prequel) and wasn't too impressed, but I hear Firefly is better. Thanks for reminding me!
The series is definitely one of the best to have come on television in recent years and probably the most triumphant example of a space western.
On November 03 2010 21:51 Billy_ wrote:
If I didn't know any better I'd have thought that the original starcrafts were a work of Shakespeare, or Chris Avellone. Yes, I am comparing Planescape Torment to William. Fun fact - Broodwar is very nonsensical, inconsistent and has plot holes all over the place. I'm pretty sure that any sort of in depth objective analysis can back that up.
Oh hey man. Welcome back! Funny thing about that, I was just talking about doing an in-depth objective analysis. By the way, "the original sucked too" is not a valid defense for the sequel sucking.
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The original didn't suck, and WoL was an improvement over BW. BW wasn't shit either, but overrated and guilty of many of the same mistakes that WoL made.
And you don't get much more in depth than this guy http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7280
He's about 1/2 way through the SC series. One of the least biased critiques that I have read, and a pretty good attempt at analysis. I disagree with some of his views, but I do like that they are understandable opinions backed by solid reasoning and logic. Solid critiques of anything is normally buried under pages of "It's shit", so a solid, in depth perspective would be nice.
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@Billy_:
WoL was an improvement over BW???
What? Utter nonsense. By the way, are you a Blizzard plant or something?
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Well BW kind of decided to not develop the plot or that characters which were put forward in the original and WoL did. Objectively, I'd say that it's off to a good start. No, I am not going to give a an objective essay to explain why, that is what I've shared the SC legacy link for. Of course it's still early days yet, and WoL didn't actually do a lot other than to prepare the Zerg and Protoss campagins for whatever direction that Blizzard may have in mind. I've said it before, but I'm witholding any judgement on Tassadar and the overmind because they weren't really characters in WoLs so there isn't a whole lot to say, is there? "But Blizzard ruined Tassadars sacrifice!"... yeah, maybe, but you have to make assumptions for that to be true, and we just don't know if Tassadar was aware that he would survive or not etc.
No, I am not a Blizzard plant.
An objective discussion would require us to discuss by typing up essays, and my enthusiasm for SC has kind of worn out too much for me to care.
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On November 04 2010 02:11 Billy_ wrote:
Well BW kind of decided to not develop the plot or that characters which were put forward in the original and WoL did. Objectively, I'd say that it's off to a good start. No, I am not going to give a detailed reason why, that is what I've shared the SC legacy link for. Of course it's still early days yet, and WoL didn't actually do a lot other than to prepare the Zerg and Protoss campagins for whatever direction that Blizzard may have in mind. I've said it before, but I'm witholding any judgement on Tassadar and the overmind because they weren't really characters in WoLs so there isn't a whole lot to say, is there? "But Blizzard ruined Tassadars sacrifice!"... yeah, maybe, but you have to make assumptions for that to be true, and we just don't know if Tassadar was aware that he would survive or not etc.
No, I am not a Blizzard plant.
An objective discussion would require us to discuss by typing up essays, and my enthusiasm for SC has kind of worn out too much for me to care.
I can certainly agree with you on the whole "Lets wait and see,after the expansions come out"I can wait to see,whether or not Metzen was full of shit,or we were just plain ignorant.
The whole mindless "WOL sucks" on this site is quite irrational and in contrast to most forums out there(that and none-complainers dont go on forums)People here just want to hate it.As far as im concerned,the only crime WoL is guilty of is the Incredibly corny "eye-rolling dialog(which is not exactly a WoL first) and its none-linear structure.
Now without dissing anyone,id say people just didnt get what they wanted.Im kinda stuck in that boat myself,mainly because i wanted a multi-racial story experience.Even after 30 missions,i kept expecting to switch to zerg.But that never happened and so my 12 years of expectations went down the drain. Gimme a 1000 terran mission,ill still want my zerg and toss,because that was the highlight of the originals.
WoL was just too human(well duh) and too personal(focusing on Raynor alone,rather than on humanity).And that for me was both its strongest and weakest point.The so called "side missions"were actually the highlights for me(apart from the beginning and ending )Mostly they placed Raynor in direct conflict to 3 very different personalities to show his own,witch you could actually influence yourself.Horner,Tosh,Findley and the Doc had some very good moments,but they weren't Kerrigan or Mengst or Artanis.So the fanboy response was hardly surprising."Long live BW and its 100 plot holes".
Thats said Blizzcon was actually encouraging and in 4-6 years time,ill either hate or love SC2.Probably hate 12+6.Are you kidding,Blizzard!!!!!!!!!
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You see this a lot in TV. That's why the stories on television are so terrible. Video games that know they'll have a sequel do this shamefully as well. What ends up happening is a second act that's too conclusive (see Mass Effect 2) or a second act that has no conclusion (see Half-Life 2: Episode 2). My guess is that HotS will end on a cliffhanger like The Matrix Reloaded.
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On November 04 2010 00:45 Krigwin wrote:
I'm actually thinking of doing some kind of Plinkett-style review series on Youtube to thoroughly explain why exactly the game could be called bad.
Hey, join the queue ;-)
On November 03 2010 21:51 Billy_ wrote:
Fun fact - Broodwar is very nonsensical, inconsistent and has plot holes all over the place. I'm pretty sure that any sort of in depth objective analysis can back that up.
But you're missing the entire point of the complaints: Wings of Liberty was badly narrated, unengaging, unrewarding and unimaginative. StarCraft and Broodwar were not.
Sure, SC/BW was full of ridiculous, made-up stuff: Humans in space. Aliens. Psychics. Magic crystals. Tentacle girls. Mutalisks flapping wings in space.
But despite all that, it was very well told. Everything you did as the player was building up to the conclusion. Every campaign had a great dramatic arc with a good pay-off at the end. (Yes, every campaign -- if I stopped you after playing Episode I, or II, or IV, and asked you how the game was, chances are you would say, "Great, give me more!". You would not say, "meh, I don't know, nothing is really clear, but please do give me more since I'm sure it'll all get better later.") The pacing was great. The perspective of the player as an executive subordinate that follows important people around was a great way of introducing characters. (Following Jim around lets you get to know him slowly and gives him room for credible mystery. On the other hand, actually being Jim just makes you disappointed by what a boring creep he is.)
In short, perhaps neither SC1 nor BW nor WoL are particularly original and deep, but the execution of SC/BW made those games such a great and immersive experience. By contrast, the execution of WoL is incoherent, meandering, inconsequential and lifeless, and it leaves you wondering at the end where all your time went. You didn't spend 20 missions working towards the conclusion; rather, you spent 20 missions dicking around and then got handed the conclusion.
Pardon the rant, I shall stop now. You can check my original post for a somewhat more detailed argument.
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Yeah, I watched all of those a while ago. He makes some pretty good points and comparisons (that I'll shamelessly steal for my own review should I make one), but it's kind of drowned out by the lame jokes and flood of memes. With Plinkett the analysis was at the forefront while most of the time you didn't even notice the jokes (except for all the deadpan psycho stuff). Reviews should be analytical first, entertaining second.
Now, I don't have a problem with making the logical analysis but making the review entertaining like the Plinkett reviews while not going overboard and interrupting the flow of the review is the definite hard part.
Plus his voice was really annoying. This is pretty unfair since even he knows it and it's a minor flaw, but that kind of cuts the flow of the videos.
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On November 04 2010 06:16 Krigwin wrote:Yeah, I watched all of those a while ago. He makes some pretty good points and comparisons (that I'll shamelessly steal for my own review should I make one), but it's kind of drowned out by the lame jokes and flood of memes. With Plinkett the analysis was at the forefront while most of the time you didn't even notice the jokes (except for all the deadpan psycho stuff). Reviews should be analytical first, entertaining second. Now, I don't have a problem with making the logical analysis but making the review entertaining like the Plinkett reviews while not going overboard and interrupting the flow of the review is the definite hard part. Plus his voice was really annoying. This is pretty unfair since even he knows it and it's a minor flaw, but that kind of cuts the flow of the videos.
Well, yeah... certainly at the first viewing all I was thinking was, "what a rip-off". But he does make good points, and he sort of finds his style over time. The fundamental problem is that Plinkett has already done it, so it'll always just be an imitation. The StarCraft guy (what's his name actually?) does shout too much for my taste -- one of Plinkett's strengths is that he never loses his composure and pleasant, unthreatening and not-at-all-in-your-face tone. He never goes on to preach or indulge or get worked up (select situations of comedic effect notwithstanding), which is a rare quality. And you're right, Plinkett's focus is on analysis, with the background serving strictly as background, not its own sake.
That said, I do really like the StarCraft reviews (give them a second viewing, perhaps you'll see them in a better light), as there are really many very compelling points. They're made by a guy you preordered the Collector's Edition and put a video on YouTube of himself receiving the package, after all! :-) The stuff about past lore panels, about how much or how little Blizzard had worked out the story so late in development, the fact that a former EA guy is lead designer, all those were pretty novel revelations to me...
Anyway, just write down what you have, look at it, and then write it again, and then again, and repeat until you like it -- don't force the humour, but I'm sure it'll come with patience and practice :-)
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Just do it, Krigwin, if only to raise awareness. People must know the truth!
Oh, and after watching Firefly, I was...well, a bit underwhelmed. Maybe it was 'cause I'm just not a fan of the whole cowboy lingo (it just doesn't sound cool to me) or the fact that they kept butchering chinese phrases left and right. I understand why they were doing it, but man, every time a chinese phrase was uttered it completely took me out of it. They should've spent some time working on their tones
Interestingly though, after re-watching Serenity, I liked it a lot more the second time around. I guess there is more of an emotional investment now that I know the characters and the story a bit better. The season (series?) finale was pretty good too. But yeah, a bit underwhelming. Glad I finally got to watch it though!
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On November 04 2010 05:56 hack41 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 00:45 Krigwin wrote:
I'm actually thinking of doing some kind of Plinkett-style review series on Youtube to thoroughly explain why exactly the game could be called bad. Hey, join the queue ;-) Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 21:51 Billy_ wrote:
Fun fact - Broodwar is very nonsensical, inconsistent and has plot holes all over the place. I'm pretty sure that any sort of in depth objective analysis can back that up. But you're missing the entire point of the complaints: Wings of Liberty was badly narrated, unengaging, unrewarding and unimaginative. StarCraft and Broodwar were not. Sure, SC/BW was full of ridiculous, made-up stuff: Humans in space. Aliens. Psychics. Magic crystals. Tentacle girls. Mutalisks flapping wings in space. But despite all that, it was very well told. Everything you did as the player was building up to the conclusion. Every campaign had a great dramatic arc with a good pay-off at the end. (Yes, every campaign -- if I stopped you after playing Episode I, or II, or IV, and asked you how the game was, chances are you would say, "Great, give me more!". You would not say, "meh, I don't know, nothing is really clear, but please do give me more since I'm sure it'll all get better later.") The pacing was great. The perspective of the player as an executive subordinate that follows important people around was a great way of introducing characters. (Following Jim around lets you get to know him slowly and gives him room for credible mystery. On the other hand, actually being Jim just makes you disappointed by what a boring creep he is.) In short, perhaps neither SC1 nor BW nor WoL are particularly original and deep, but the execution of SC/BW made those games such a great and immersive experience. By contrast, the execution of WoL is incoherent, meandering, inconsequential and lifeless, and it leaves you wondering at the end where all your time went. You didn't spend 20 missions working towards the conclusion; rather, you spent 20 missions dicking around and then got handed the conclusion. Pardon the rant, I shall stop now. You can check my original post for a somewhat more detailed argument.
Pretty sure that I've read your detailed post, and it's partly subjective like everything else but you make some good points. I don't agree with all of it, but +1 on a detailed post that isn't an emotional outburst. Well what can I say?... I didn't have most of the problems with WoL that you and some others had, so I'm not sure I see a point to arguing against it... I have seen non-linearity done better than WoL, but they were all in the RPG genre. This non-linear story driven RTS is an unusual concept for me, and I know no similar games which I can compare it to. Was WoL less dramatic and (debatably) less satisfying as a story? Well, yes, that is kind of one of the traits of non-linearity, but most people were happy with the gameplay and so you could call it a fair trade. I've only just played through WCII and TFT this week and between their amazing gameplay and WoL's, it is quite apparant that story is not Blizzards strongest trait.Blizzard story is alright, but not "OMFG AMAZING!!!", and I would be lying if I said that the non-linearity was displeasing.
As for ways in which the (adequate at worst imo) campaign of WoL could have done better... I guess that they could have included some kind of a codex in which the player can read up on relevent history and biographies removing the need to quit the game and look at the scwiki or lore page would help. I'm not sure what could have been done to increase the drama and entertainment value of the narrative, so I'll leave that to someone with more non-linear exposer. The news casts could have been removed or maybe be handled with some subtlety, but SC is hardly known for subtlety so whatever... Oh yeah, I also agree that the whole "build up our standing forces and raising funds" dragged on for too long, but they came with good missions, so it's a bit of a win/lose situation and I haven't thought a lot about how the optional missions could tie in a bit better with the rebellion.
Most of the missions in WoL were driven by the rebellion, except for the colonists, protoss and so I don't agree with your point about been handed the conclusion... you're handed a way to help Kerrigan, which also had the side effect of helping Valarian to do whatever it is that he wants. The narrative wasn't really weak imo, but Blizzard seem to have overextended themselves with the mission count.
TL;DR: SCI was story driven gameplay, and WoL was gameplay driven story. I'm totally okay with either style, but feel like Blizzard have always been better at gameplay than story.
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Thanks for the reply!
[...] Was WoL less dramatic and (debatably) less satisfying as a story? Well, yes, that is kind of one of the traits of non-linearity, but most people were happy with the gameplay and so you could call it a fair trade.
I just want to make absolutely sure that we're on the same page here - my only concerns are about the story and the way it was told, not and never about the gameplay. I fully agree that the gameplay is excellent, very well designed and thoroughly enjoyable. Sure, SC/BW had more "wipe everything, take your time" missions while WoL had almost exclusively gimmicky missions, but that's entirely a matter of taste, and additional missions can easily be provided in abundance thanks to the map editor.
Whether one should trade story telling for gameplay... well, in any normal situation, probably yes, and I suppose the only niggle I can offer is that... I just had expected that with Blizzard I wouldn't have to make a trade.
Also, whether or not the non-linearity was good is another matter of taste. Personally, I could have done without it (since it took away the sense of scale, distance, time and progress), but if you enjoyed it, good for you. I guess if it was something where different choices had any effect on the game I would have taken more kindly to it; as it stands, the non-linear aspect of the campaign just feels needlessly tacked on for its own sake to me. But if you think it's an improvement over the linear style of the predecessor, I shan't argue with you.
Most of the missions in WoL were driven by the rebellion, except for the colonists, protoss and so I don't agree with your point about been handed the conclusion... you're handed a way to help Kerrigan, which also had the side effect of helping Valarian to do whatever it is that he wants. The narrative wasn't really weak imo, but Blizzard seem to have overextended themselves with the mission count.
Lots of people don't seem to see anything wrong with that aspect, so maybe indulge me while I elaborate: You see, the sense of achievement at the end of a narrative comes from having all the listener's (= player's) investment in everything that comes before the end pay off at the end. It's the feeling of reaching your goal and looking back marvelling at how you got there. Maybe if you had a tough childhood and you get your college degree and wonder how you ever made it against all the odds, a feeling like that. But that's because you know that at every step on the way you were trying to get somewhere. You might not always have seen the road clearly, but you always had some sort of goal, and in the end your persistence got you to something good.
That is not the same as if you just spend a lot of time doing something that has nothing to do with the goal, and more precisely doing something that doesn't come from your own drive. To stretch the above example even further, it's like if you had a tough childhood, spent your teens and twens doing drugs and petty crime in a slum, and then on your 25th birthday someone gives you an honorary doctorate. You have the doctorate, which people usually associate with a tale of success and achievement, but it is a hollow and lifeless story.
Getting back to WoL, imagine that Raynor would have known from the start that he wanted to do something about Kerrigan (in excess of staring at her photo). He might not have had any idea what to do, but imagine he had the drive. Then a mission or two where he gets a tip-off or an idea. Another mission or two following some leads. Perhaps encountering Zeratul or the Moebius Foundation. A mission to get their attention. Another mission for payment. An artifact is mentioned. Zeratul is consulted, a Protoss mission to shed light on the artifact. A mysterious prophecy crops up. Fight for another artifact. A chance is suggested that the artifact could be used on Kerrigan. But no, the prophecy tells us that she must be preserved! Moral dilemma. A choice is made. Valerian's support is required, another mission or two to secure it. Final battle. Kerrigan saved, victory? We've achieved something, but there's the looming knowledge of a greater threat.
It's top-grade teenage cheese, and I'd hate to see something silly like that, but nonetheless the structure of this hypothetical plot actually builds up to the end. (Sorry for not putting any rebellion stuff in there. I didn't get a feeling from WoL that the rebellion idea ever led anywhere, either, by the way, so it just wasn't on my mind; I'm afraid I fail entirely to see how "most missions were driven by the rebellion")
I hope that example clarifies a bit what I mean by "the ending is handed to us", and shows how it could have been done so that the campaign actually builds up to its own conclusion.
If that was too much rambling, you can try something else: Think of StarCraft, the original. Does anything memorable come to mind? Now think about Wings of Liberty - what memorable moments do you recall?
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Are you asking me for my first impressions of SCI? I'm not not sure how I felt back in the day, but SC never really struck me as a really good story until near the end of the game starting from Zeratuls final speech to Aldaris after freeing Tassadar. I don't think that I cared much for the SCI terran campaign, and I definitely felt something for the Zerg campaign, but I'm not sure what it was. I vaguely recall a few "WTF is this crap" moments in BW, mostly for the same reasons which I've already elaborated on in other topics (and I lolled at the retcon where Blizzard placed a fully functional psi disruptor on Tarsonis. GG Blizzard) so I think my first impressions haven't changed much.
The Tosh, Tychus and Hanson mission arcs were memorable enough, the arcs just didn't stick around for anywhere near long enough for investment which could be equal to the original SC. I did find the ending cinematics of siding with Tash and Selendis to be memorable conclusions The Mar Sara, Char and dominion missions mainly worked because they were building off of all of the story we've followed from the originals, but the Matt Horner missions really needed to be played consecuatively for them to really click on an emotional level. One of the main reasons for my enjoyment was that I didn't just do a little bit here and then a little bit there. I started that particular arc, and saw it through to the end without getting side tracked. And of course, the finale of the Protoss missions and the end game were both memorable, if vague.
But yeah, like we've already said, Blizzard may have gotten carried away in sacrificing the story, but it is interesting to note that the lead writer for WoL was also a writer for Jade Empire and Mass Effect 2. The main story is never the best part of Bioware games.
Anyway, I;m not sure what else to say other than I hope that Blizzard can find a better balance between focus and non-linearity in future.
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I hope they shy away from obvious cliches.
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It's hard to believe SC2 cost 100 million dollars to make. Where did all that money go? Metzen's bling?
At least they could have packed the campaign with like 20-50 full-blown CGI cinematics or something. We got like 2 or 3.
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SPOILER:
+ Show Spoiler +Tychus will be resurrected as the new Queen of Blades, seriously
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Sc2 single player story was meant for kids 12 and under it seems, and pretty much everyone agrees that I've talked to. The lore of blizz games starting going to crap when WoW came out and they just had to make up shit as they went.
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I enjoy the story.
/shrug
Guess we can't all speak for each other, it's as if we all have formed our own opinion on the matter like individuals.
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IGN has written some articles with unreliable information in the past. I remember I used to get the newsletter from both IGN and Gamespot. IGN would often write stories, that according to the Gamespot newsletter which I trusted infinitely more, were nothing more than rumors. Take the IGN article with a grain of salt I would advise.
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On October 25 2010 00:09 Redmark wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 23:19 mustaju wrote:
I foresee an increase in only situationally effective units and bullshit mechanics to create new content. I don't get this, Weren't there situationally effective units in BW and WoL? Unless you mean like 'anti-battlecruiser turrets' or 'explodes when it's 4pm on a Thursday' lol.
X_X ommggg!!! I laughed so hard at this!!~~~ I was crying about Lurker and Reaver and Goliath for so long, but now that I think about it, putting them in is probably worse than working to refine the units they currently have.
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Invariably all stories were unfinished at some point in time.
I highly doubt Tom Clancy had the entire 13 book Jack Ryan series "finished" in an instant.
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On October 24 2010 23:32 HardcoreBilly wrote:J.R.R. Tolkien made up Lord of the Rings as he wrote. + Show Spoiler +It's too bad Blizzard's story writer decided to kill Tychus off. Totally unnecessary.
Maybe he's not dead?
Maybe Raynor shot him in the chest or whatever and he survived, no1 knows
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On November 06 2010 09:04 lundell100 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 23:32 HardcoreBilly wrote:J.R.R. Tolkien made up Lord of the Rings as he wrote. + Show Spoiler +It's too bad Blizzard's story writer decided to kill Tychus off. Totally unnecessary. Maybe he's not dead? Maybe Raynor shot him in the chest or whatever and he survived, no1 knows
Char was only a setback.
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Well It's a pretty low possibility blizz will know how It's gonna end, They're still making it! for all we know this series could go up to Starcraft 60 or world of starcraft (highly likely on starcraft 60 but world of starcraft has a possible chance)
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Most, if not all writers make stuff up as they go along.
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Most, if not all writers make stuff up as they go along.
Yeah, that makes sense. The second act of a three part series is often filler. Probably because the writers/director have a strict deadline to meet and they need a lot of time to figure out how the story will end so they just make the middle as open ended an unprogressive as possible.
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9070 Posts
yeah, I was pretty sure Blizzard have no idea what are they doing with the story
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If Rowling knew how her series was going to end, she could've told everyone and spared us the trouble and disappointment.
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On November 06 2010 09:04 lundell100 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 23:32 HardcoreBilly wrote:J.R.R. Tolkien made up Lord of the Rings as he wrote. + Show Spoiler +It's too bad Blizzard's story writer decided to kill Tychus off. Totally unnecessary. Maybe he's not dead? Maybe Raynor shot him in the chest or whatever and he survived, no1 knows
Single Player page specifically says he's dead.
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SC/BW's storytelling was hardly top notch, most fond memories are because of nostalgia more than anything. That and people love to hate new things.
They're still putting some effort into it, but I miss the extensive backstory they had in the manual from the first game.
I think you guys are putting the old Blizzard writers (though I doubt they've changed that much) up on a pedestal.
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EPT
