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I am actually surprised to learn that Tolkien and King don't know how their stories end. But not so surprised that Blizzard/Metzen doesn't. You can see with WC3 that they rewrote/retconned the entire story.
I think SC2 story was made for an entirely different audience than SC BW story. Popular/teenage culture has changed a lot in all these years. Things have gotten really shallow. Prime example to me is how Raynor and Kerrigan suddenly have a romantic relationship. Did they suddenly fall in love somewhere between BW and SC2? Raynor and Kerrigan didn't even know each other during the SC storyline. Then in BW she turned zerg and Raynor said he wanted to kill her.
I think SC2 storyline was designed for people who are too young to have played SC BW. I am really disappointed in Metzen that he sacrificed his story and produced what market research discovered they should produce.
Yeah, war on Kespa, yeah catering to the casual market, yeah Blizzard got so big quality management has suffered. But it really seems everyone that is still at Blizzard just sold out on their artistic motivations and those that weren't able to do so left in the past. That's why all those people left. They didn't like the direction Blizzard was going into.
I have drawn up some story archs myself. Yes, you can never know how it will end the first time you write something. But you have to go back and rewrite everything, set up things for later plot twists, fill up plot holes. You have to go back and redo everything several times to make something good, efficient and consistent.
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Estonia4504 Posts
On October 25 2010 00:09 Redmark wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 23:19 mustaju wrote:
I foresee an increase in only situationally effective units and bullshit mechanics to create new content. I don't get this, Weren't there situationally effective units in BW and WoL? Unless you mean like 'anti-battlecruiser turrets' or 'explodes when it's 4pm on a Thursday' lol.
I sincerely believe WoL is stacked with units that are situational and that there are hardcounters which force you to transition, not supplement. Like corrupters are for colossi and colossi only, unless they built motherships and carriers. Not much you can do besides that with them. Or how you need vikings against colossi that aren't going to be too helpful dealing with the rest of their army. More units = more situational units. There's only so many generalists you can have.
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I think there is going to be a happy end. Blizzard knows that and I know it. I dont remember the story of Wings of Liberty, because it was meaningless. Maybe Blizzard already wrote it, but forgot also?
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On October 25 2010 00:05 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 23:37 Deckkie wrote:On October 24 2010 23:34 tacrats wrote:On October 24 2010 23:31 Mothxal wrote:On October 24 2010 23:25 tacrats wrote:On October 24 2010 23:21 MrLonely wrote:
Legitimate storymaking technique. Stephen King doesn't know how his stories will end either, and I consider him a pretty good writer. Stephen King is a good writer and can pull that off. If WoL was any indication (ex: magix saves kerrigan raynor carries her off into the sunset), blizz doesnt have good writers anymore. So the fact that they have no idea what they are doing is going to result in a terrible, terrible story. Just because you disliked the single-player, don't pretend the rest of the world agrees. Hardly any writers know how a story will end. In fact, knowing often makes for a worse story, since then the story can be somewhat artificial and drawn out, since the pacing might not be accounted for in the original idea. any self-respecting individual would agree sc2 SP sucked. You should see the SP more as a movie. the books go way deeper into the story line. well at least they did for SC and BW. And I personally did like the SP a lot. (Maybe some more baseless missions) Ignoring the concept that a story can be fine if you need supplementary material for it to not suck: Calling something a movie doesn't excuse it from having a horrible storyline. Sure, movies can have simpler storylines because they just don't have the room for anything more complex, but there's still good and bad storytelling within movies. Example? Compare Star Wars IV to I. IV didn't have a complex storyline, but it had solid characters that acted out their parts with nothing out of character. I had a much more complex storyline that couldn't be fully understood without reading the books, a set of characters that (outside of being impossible to care about) did not always make sense, such as the wise Jedi master Qui-Gon using the force to cheat and browbeat people every other scene, and completely worthless exposition with the little organisms that cause the force. Sound familiar? That's right, Starcraft 1's Terran campaign was far from complex (Zerg attack, ally with rebels, overthrow government, discover leader to be evil), but all of the characters acted in line and you could have emotions for all of them, whether pitying Kerrigan or hating Mengsk. Most of all, that story was IT. There wasn't anything else you should go read for clarification, except possibly the lore guide if you felt ambitious. Then, in SC2, you have Raynor going back on his promise during Mission 8 of the SC:BW Zerg Campaign (True Colors; he promises to kill Kerrigan some day) and suddenly falls back in love with her for no apparent reason, you get near-emotionless characters like Matt Horner to empathize with, the Overmind is retroactively written to be a poor being working against fate, and none of it makes any more sense than Mengsk sending out Tychus with a bomb strapped to him with orders to kill KERRIGAN, not Raynor. The SC2 story was horrible, and something Blizzard should be ashamed of. None of this is to say that the individual missions were bad. In fact, they were all very enjoyable, and on average better than the SC1 missions barring any influence of story (it feels cooler to be capturing the Overmind than bringing Medics to certain locations). The story just happens to be awful. Also, if this hasn't been done already, could I request a mod send this to the SC2 SP subforum?
Interesting view.
I personaly couldnt believe it either that Raynor was trying to "save" Carrigan again. But they gave an good explanation about this with the Q&A at Blizzcon, and I can very well live with their awnser. But I did like the story line. Raynor getting more and more support. The Mobius foundation. Mengsk and his son. The role Protoss played in WoL. Just all the different races and factions that have their own clear reason for handling problems their own way. And the place Raynor has in it. All In all I do find it very Star wars like. Not everything was explained in depth. you actually had to think why one would do what he did. It wasn't a black and white story imo.
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i would have guessed this anyways
i remember hearing a interview about a year ago about how they did the lore for SC1 and i was really surprised to hear how they pretty much just made it up on the spot, didnt seem like there was alot of planning or writing going into it.
which is very saddening. blizz lore was good in the 90s..
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On October 25 2010 00:40 PhiliBiRD wrote:
i would have guessed this anyways
i remember hearing a interview about a year ago about how they did the lore for SC1 and i was really surprised to hear how they pretty much just made it up on the spot, didnt seem like there was alot of planning or writing going into it.
which is very saddening. blizz lore was good in the 90s..
It's difficult to be sure that something was "good" 10-15 years ago and it's not simply that your taste has changed
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On October 24 2010 23:12 tacrats wrote:" it's more ambitious, it's bigger than what Warcraft: The Frozen Throne was to Reign of Chaos and I don't anticipate it being done in that one year time frame."
Interesting. TFT represented a HUGE change from RoC. Aside from a great campaign and the usual added units/heros, they changed a TON in the game mechanics. They changed armor types to a bunch of units, going so far as to add another one, and they added player-built shops, which completely changed the way players played. I'd go as far as to say TFT was more different from RoC than BW was from SC, and all long-time BW players here will know that the addition of medics, corsairs, and lurkers completely changed the way SC was played on a competitive level.
The one thing that makes me wonder if they'll really go this far is that SC2 is a far more polished multiplayer game than either SC1 or WC3:RoC. Both of these games were fairly broken for multiplayer, and the changes introduced are what allowed them to become the robust games they eventually became. SC2, on the other hand, is already a fantastic multiplayer game. We're seeing it in the GSL, and we saw it at BlizzCon. Players are playing more macro-oriented games, and we're seeing decision-making play a bigger role than massing broken units and the like. Sure, it's not perfect, but from a competitive level it's streets ahead of SC and RoC.
So I'm not sure I want to see dramatic changes. What I'm hoping they mean are changes to Bnet. I'm hoping to see a revolutionized battlenet with (gasp) chatrooms, sponsored tournaments, etc. On the other hand, I'd like to see this come out earlier than 2012. Kind of a pickle. :-)
Either way, exciting times for SC2!
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Most people in the creative fields "know" how a story might end, but they also have no clue at the same time. The sometimes have to let the story take them there and see what happens. Then they go back and make sure everything flows well. This is no different in modern video games and their stories.
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On October 24 2010 23:32 HardcoreBilly wrote:
It's too bad Blizzard's story writer decided to kill Tychus off. Totally unnecessary.
Calling it here. Not dead.
If you listened to the RTS tournament stage when they had the voice actors out, the guy who does Tychus said at the end "I look forward to all of you seeing Tychus in Hots" - I think he slipped because a few looked awkwardly at him.
Even Metzen said when asked if Tychus was really dead..."Does anyone really ever die in our games?"
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On October 24 2010 23:37 Deckkie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 23:34 tacrats wrote:On October 24 2010 23:31 Mothxal wrote:On October 24 2010 23:25 tacrats wrote:On October 24 2010 23:21 MrLonely wrote:
Legitimate storymaking technique. Stephen King doesn't know how his stories will end either, and I consider him a pretty good writer. Stephen King is a good writer and can pull that off. If WoL was any indication (ex: magix saves kerrigan raynor carries her off into the sunset), blizz doesnt have good writers anymore. So the fact that they have no idea what they are doing is going to result in a terrible, terrible story. Just because you disliked the single-player, don't pretend the rest of the world agrees. Hardly any writers know how a story will end. In fact, knowing often makes for a worse story, since then the story can be somewhat artificial and drawn out, since the pacing might not be accounted for in the original idea. any self-respecting individual would agree sc2 SP sucked. You should see the SP more as a movie. the books go way deeper into the story line. well at least they did for SC and BW. And I personally did like the SP a lot. (Maybe some more baseless missions)
If the SP is a movie, it was a terribly written action flick.
Oh, and pretty much every book written based on a Blizzard title has been complete trash. Terrible writing that would only appeal to teenagers overly-zealous about SC/WC/Diablo. The first few Diablo books might be able to pass as good, but really, nothing else can.
Calling it here. Not dead.
If you listened to the RTS tournament stage when they had the voice actors out, the guy who does Tychus said at the end "I look forward to all of you seeing Tychus in Hots" - I think he slipped because a few looked awkwardly at him.
Even Metzen said when asked if Tychus was really dead..."Does anyone really ever die in our games?"
Single player screen specifically says that Tychus is dead. If he's alive, it's a straight up retcon.
It's difficult to be sure that something was "good" 10-15 years ago and it's not simply that your taste has changed
It wasn't terrible. Warcraft, SC, and Diablo all had stories that were solid, didn't contain an abundance of massive plot holes, and were pretty enjoyable. Not amazing, but good. Then it started going downhill with WC3.
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On October 25 2010 01:04 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Single player screen specifically says that Tychus is dead. If he's alive, it's a straight up retcon.
It's Blizzard, bro. Retcons are a hobby
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On October 25 2010 01:10 Pfeff wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 01:04 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Single player screen specifically says that Tychus is dead. If he's alive, it's a straight up retcon. It's Blizzard, bro. Retcons are a hobby
And just another sign of terrible writing.
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Heart of the Swarm = Valerian and Raynor now turn on Arcturus, and launch a direct assault on the Dominion, using the resources under Valerian's control, and Raynor's tactician abilities.
When it becomes apparent that Raynor and Valerian will win, Arcturus pulls his ace in the hole, which is an overmind created by the Dominion, and uses that to control the Zerg and destroy Valerian/Raynor.
Obviously, this plan backfires horribly, as the Zerg can't be controlled by humans (same shit happens in the original SC) and they turn around and annihilate the Dominion.
Now Raynor and Valerian run for their lives, and seek the help of Zeratul and his allies.
Meanwhile, the Zerg are drawn by the Taldarim, obliterate them, but infest those with high psyionic potential, creating pseudo-hybrids that are not as powerful as the original ones, and then launch their assault on Valerian/Raynor/Zeratul, since they are the last true force in the known Universe able to oppose them. The story ends as the Zerg prep for the final battle.
Legacy of the Void = Raynor/Valerian/Zeratul are chilling at the running through the Sector, attempting to gather what forces they can, while avoiding the inevitable final conflict with the Zerg swarm.
They end up on some planet, and uncover a giant temple, once used by the Xel'Naga. Via artifacts and ancient scriptures with high psyionic residue, he is able to literally see the entire history of the Protoss race, from the viewpoint of the Xel'Naga.
Turns out, that the tablet wasn't actually a history, but a prediction that seems to be 100% accurate, including the final confrontation with the Zerg, Kerrigan's shenanigans, and Zeratul's last moments being with two humans.
Then, the "spirit" of a Xel'Naga prophet appears (it's just a really high-tech hologram, far beyond any technology any race possesses. It basically apologizes to Zeratul for creating the Protoss, the Zerg, and all of the pain that they put the two races through. It then tells Zeratul that the visions he saw in WoL were accurate, but also acted on his own view of reality.
Because of this, he perceived the Hybrids in a form completely different from their true form. The prophet then tells him that the Xel'Naga actually created the hybrids by combining the Zerg and Protoss and manipulating their shit, and the end result was standing with him: Oh shit, The Terran!
(should also mention here that Zeratul realizes this is the truth, due to their latent psyionic potential. The prophet tells him that the Terran haven't figured out how to "awaken their potential")
Zeratul is then faced with a decision to either annihilate his allies in the face of his own annihilation, to preemptively destroy the people who will one day end his race. or use their help, and destroy. Because Zeratul trusts Raynor, he decides to preserve the alliance yada yada. the prophet then tells him he made the right choice because the hybrids are the only perfect race and will save the universe. He then awakens a massive ancient Xel'Naga guardian armyand gives control to Kerrigan (yes I didn't forget about her.)
This whole time, Kerrigan has been recovering from her infestation, while having vivid dreams of what is yet to come. Apparently, her powers were semi awakened due to her infestation, and she is the only one able to control the Xel'Naga army. They take the Xel'Naga army, and attack the Zerg, totally annihilating what appears to be the entire race. A final battle happens, epic cinematics, and in the end, we see Zeratul leading the charge against the Zerg. they destroy the final Overmind, the bloodthirsty one created by Arcturus, the Zerg is destroyed.
In the final Cinematic, we see Zeratul peacing out in his ship, gravely wounded, and carrying something in a satchel. the whole time we hear a conversation that Zeratul had with the Overmind before killing it. The Overmind essentially begs Zeratul to save it's race, and that it wasn't their fault yada yada. the final scene, Zeratul reveals what was in the satchel, and it is a single egg of the Overmind, the last existing piece of the entire Zerg race. then it blacks out (with a little "see you in 12 years" caption for shits and giggles)
BOOM, HEADSHOT. Sorry Blizzard, I think I spoiled.
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That plot would at least make for some epic cut-scenes, but I'm afraid we are going to end up with something far worse T_T
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On October 24 2010 23:22 Theston wrote:
Of course they don't.
Do you think J.K. Rowling knew how her seventh book ended when she wrote the first?
Is this sarcasm because I think J.K. Rowling was the one of the authors that had myth attached to her that when she showed up on the publishing company for the first time to publish her novel she had brought along a entire draft plan for story and fate of chatacters xD. Of course, I do agree making things up (flexibility) a you go along is legitimate technique, though in order for it to work effectively you really need to set concrete background and characters before actually starting.
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On October 24 2010 23:34 tacrats wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 23:31 Mothxal wrote:On October 24 2010 23:25 tacrats wrote:On October 24 2010 23:21 MrLonely wrote:
Legitimate storymaking technique. Stephen King doesn't know how his stories will end either, and I consider him a pretty good writer. Stephen King is a good writer and can pull that off. If WoL was any indication (ex: magix saves kerrigan raynor carries her off into the sunset), blizz doesnt have good writers anymore. So the fact that they have no idea what they are doing is going to result in a terrible, terrible story. Just because you disliked the single-player, don't pretend the rest of the world agrees. Hardly any writers know how a story will end. In fact, knowing often makes for a worse story, since then the story can be somewhat artificial and drawn out, since the pacing might not be accounted for in the original idea. any self-respecting individual would agree sc2 SP sucked. User was warned for this post
I agree. I love how they were hyping it to be the best SP campaign they've ever made (by far, as Rob Pardo said) and that it also had a deep story. This is what made me lose faith in Blizzard (including things they did in WoW), but I still like to follow the SC2 pro community.
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Whatever, I loved the single player and the plot that went along with it.
Looking forward to the next game, sad to hear about 2011, but... Seriously wasn't expecting that anyway.
I'd love a different campaign gameplay-wise though, just because it'd be interesting to see that change.
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There is no cow level!!!!
As long as the campaign deviates away from the Hollywood-esque plot designed for 13 year olds, I don't care how they go about doing it. I loved the WC3 campaign so much because of Arthas. As you played through each mission, you slowly saw him lose his sanity until he finally became a deathknight. He was, in my opinion, perfectly or nearly perfectly developed.
In WoL, every character is so heavily stereotyped and nobody really develops. The most interesting parts about the Dark Voice, the death everything, the Protoss's last stand, those are all side missions. Hell, the Mengsk storyline wasn't even finished, as far as we know everyone's all pissed at him but he's still the emperor. Every part of the campaign just feels really half done. Nothing is fleshed out as much as it could be.
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On October 25 2010 01:49 Deadlyhazard wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 23:34 tacrats wrote:On October 24 2010 23:31 Mothxal wrote:On October 24 2010 23:25 tacrats wrote:On October 24 2010 23:21 MrLonely wrote:
Legitimate storymaking technique. Stephen King doesn't know how his stories will end either, and I consider him a pretty good writer. Stephen King is a good writer and can pull that off. If WoL was any indication (ex: magix saves kerrigan raynor carries her off into the sunset), blizz doesnt have good writers anymore. So the fact that they have no idea what they are doing is going to result in a terrible, terrible story. Just because you disliked the single-player, don't pretend the rest of the world agrees. Hardly any writers know how a story will end. In fact, knowing often makes for a worse story, since then the story can be somewhat artificial and drawn out, since the pacing might not be accounted for in the original idea. any self-respecting individual would agree sc2 SP sucked. User was warned for this post I agree. I love how they were hyping it to be the best SP campaign they've ever made (by far, as Rob Pardo said) and that it also had a deep story. This is what made me lose faith in Blizzard (including things they did in WoW), but I still like to follow the SC2 pro community.
Well its not like the single-player gameplay was bad at least. Even if the story is godawful as I expect, I know the actual gameplay will be great. It was a massive, massive improvment over the "build up, destroy, repeat" tedium of SC1 and BW. Probably the best RTS campaign of all time if you judge on gameplay alone.
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EPT
