A fine seems reasonable unless it is persistent through the match in which case I would argue for the match to be stopped and only resumed until the issue had be resolved e.g. by removing those fans from the stadium.
Ironically, Denmark did pay a larger fine for that compared to what England has just been fined.
EDIT: Incidentally, I have also previously argued that the Denmark-England game should have been paused until the issue was resolved as soon as the ref was made aware. That would, imo, have been the correct course of action (and the fine would make sense in that context).
EDIT2: I agree it is difficult to stop people from bringing a laser to the game, but that is also why you have to punish it hard. So that people are deterred. But really, we are only in this situation because it was handled improperly during the game.
On July 10 2021 23:10 Ghostcom wrote: EDIT: Incidentally, I have also previously argued that the Denmark-England game should have been paused until the issue was resolved as soon as the ref was made aware. That would, imo, have been the correct course of action (and fine would make sense in that context).
In theory, I agree with this as a course of action in the event of a disturbance on the pitch. The only problem is that I don't know how they would identify the source of the laser. Those things are tiny and can fit in a pocket, so unless they are pausing the game to search tens of thousands of people there was nothing much they could do. I know there were discussions during the game about finding the guy but security said they weren't able to do anything.
On July 10 2021 22:51 Ghostcom wrote: You are both strawmanning the shit out this discussion. One more and I'm out.
1) I have already acknowledge the England had the better game and just like most other Danes I am fine with having lost the game to England - the way it happened much less so. The penalty in itself was thin, but the events leading up to it were even more dubious and the game should have been stopped.
2) I don't think there is an UEFA conspiracy - I thought as much obvious, but apparently it needs a separate bullet because you keep strawmanning.
3) The laserpointer was all game. Pierre Emil Højbjerg, Simon Kjær and Kasper Schemicel were all affected by it at different stages of the game - and made the ref aware in the very first half that it was an issue. There was even a short break during the start of the second half pertaining to this with the issue remaining unresolved as we could see during the penalty. Whether or not the penalty was initially saved or not doesn't change the facts.
4) It is not a 3 strike policy. Denmark had no history of hooliganism until a guy tried to argue with the ref during a match versus Sweden when a penalty was correctly awarded to Sweden. First strike -> match lost and no fans for the next matches. And that was a fair punishment because threatening the integrity of the game has no place anywhere.
The punishment is incredibly light and likely only so due to the circumstances of the next game. As such I didn't expect otherwise but it does leave me with a feeling of UEFA not taking the game seriously.
I don't think you watch football very often is all i can gather from this statement? Im not saying you are wrong because you are using logic, but that does not work with UEFA the worse oranisation outside of FIFA....this is not saying the game we are discussing is a corrupt nightmare but they just do not care outside of lining their own pockets.
So to the fact of your points you are saying that the game should be stopped for a laser pointer? Never happened before in history of football and the laser pointer thing is NOT NEW! It happens alot, you should see the crazy shit that happens in South American games.
It is a 3 strike thing on lesser offences ala booing a national anthem or the famous "failing to control your players" policy when a melee happens. What isn't a 3 strike rule is when some very high risk security offence occurs aka a fan gets on the pitch and threatens/harms someone, that is a big failure in security which UEFA do not like.
They punished us inline with every other dogshit punishment UEFA hand out, our U21 team were racially abused and attacked in Serbia some years ago very badly and all they got were 65,000 euro fine lol. UEFA do not do anything properly, nor do FIFA, the only way you can hope things change in football is at a national level where UEFA and FIFA do not have as much say, so your domestic game can be governed properly.
On July 10 2021 23:10 Ghostcom wrote: EDIT: Incidentally, I have also previously argued that the Denmark-England game should have been paused until the issue was resolved as soon as the ref was made aware. That would, imo, have been the correct course of action (and fine would make sense in that context).
In theory, I agree with this as a course of action in the event of a disturbance on the pitch. The only problem is that I don't know how they would identify the source of the laser. Those things are tiny and can fit in a pocket, so unless they are pausing the game to search tens of thousands of people there was nothing much they could do. I know there were discussions during the game about finding the guy but security said they weren't able to do anything.
I 100% agree, in an ideal world the game is stopped, the guy is found and ejected but that isn't how UEFA work or how football works, it never has happened before and never will. We do not even allow players to walk off the pitch or stop when they are getting racially abused ffs, let alone for a laser pointer.
You just can't help yourself Pandemona. You have no idea how much or little I watch football. Stating that unsportsmanlike conduct is happening elsewhere doesn't really make it acceptable in my book, but whatever makes you feel better. You and I are not going to have a fruitful discussion. GL Sunday.
On July 10 2021 23:10 Ghostcom wrote: EDIT2: I agree it is difficult to stop people from bringing a laser to the game, but that is also why you have to punish it hard. So that people are deterred. But really, we are only in this situation because it was handled improperly during the game.
Seems like you don't want to continue discussing it but... I would imagine there are legal problems with punishing a club or a FA unless they specifically have done something wrong, unless the proof of lack of negligence is at least taken into account officially. Again in theory I agree that a harsh punishment for this kind of thing would work as a deterrent, but I just don't think you can do it, because you can be taken to court for doing so and the law will always side with the club if they can prove they didn't do anything wrong. Legally the club isn't responsible for something a fan has done if it is not something they can reasonably be expected to be able to stop.
Banning all England fans from a stadium over one idiot smells a lot like collective punishment to me. It’s also unenforceable, surely. What’s to stop me going in as an Italy fan?
On July 10 2021 23:55 KwarK wrote: Banning all England fans from a stadium over one idiot smells a lot like collective punishment to me. It’s also unenforceable, surely. What’s to stop me going in as an Italy fan?
It's not just that, they were disrespecting the anthems the whole god damn tourney. But some people are defending this because "it's happening elsewhere" ... and some are pretending it's fine. The laser pointer incident is just UEFA ignoring the shit until it escalates even further. Start solving the issues and don't pretend it's not happeneing or the childish "but they;'re doing it too!!!"
Like those idiots cannot be silent for a minute. Fair play and respect my ass.
On July 10 2021 23:10 Ghostcom wrote: EDIT2: I agree it is difficult to stop people from bringing a laser to the game, but that is also why you have to punish it hard. So that people are deterred. But really, we are only in this situation because it was handled improperly during the game.
Seems like you don't want to continue discussing it but... I would imagine there are legal problems with punishing a club or a FA unless they specifically have done something wrong, unless the proof of lack of negligence is at least taken into account officially. Again in theory I agree that a harsh punishment for this kind of thing would work as a deterrent, but I just don't think you can do it, because you can be taken to court for doing so and the law will always side with the club if they can prove they didn't do anything wrong. Legally the club isn't responsible for something a fan has done if it is not something they can reasonably be expected to be able to stop.
Clubs are being punished for their fans chanting stupid stuff. Why they cannot be punished for their fans trying to blind people on the pitch then? Like... what's the difference? Where's the negligance at chanting? Not enough gags?
Every country boos a national anthem of the opponent? Do you not watch international football? Watch tonight Brazil vs Argentina and them boo each other national anthem, watch Germany vs England, Scotland vs England, Denmark vs think was Finland, watch Hungary games, i mean that is not an argument, it is bad but its all around the world of football happening.
Next it will be a crime to boo the opponents team news being read out before a game....
On July 10 2021 23:55 KwarK wrote: Banning all England fans from a stadium over one idiot smells a lot like collective punishment to me. It’s also unenforceable, surely. What’s to stop me going in as an Italy fan?
It's not just that, they were disrespecting the anthems the whole god damn tourney. But some people are defending this because "it's happening elsewhere" ... and some are pretending it's fine. The laser pointer incident is just UEFA ignoring the shit until it escalates even further. Start solving the issues and don't pretend it's not happeneing or the childish "but they;'re doing it too!!!"
Like those idiots cannot be silent for a minute. Fair play and respect my ass.
On July 10 2021 23:10 Ghostcom wrote: EDIT2: I agree it is difficult to stop people from bringing a laser to the game, but that is also why you have to punish it hard. So that people are deterred. But really, we are only in this situation because it was handled improperly during the game.
Seems like you don't want to continue discussing it but... I would imagine there are legal problems with punishing a club or a FA unless they specifically have done something wrong, unless the proof of lack of negligence is at least taken into account officially. Again in theory I agree that a harsh punishment for this kind of thing would work as a deterrent, but I just don't think you can do it, because you can be taken to court for doing so and the law will always side with the club if they can prove they didn't do anything wrong. Legally the club isn't responsible for something a fan has done if it is not something they can reasonably be expected to be able to stop.
Clubs are being punished for their fans chanting stupid stuff. Why they cannot be punished for their fans trying to blind people on the pitch then? Like... what's the difference? Where's the negligance at chanting? Not enough gags?
They do get punished, the clubs get a little fine and the fan gets banned...which is what happened here.
On July 11 2021 00:14 Pandemona wrote: Every country boos a national anthem of the opponent? Do you not watch international football? Watch tonight Brazil vs Argentina and them boo each other national anthem, watch Germany vs England, Scotland vs England, Denmark vs think was Finland, watch Hungary games, i mean that is not an argument, it is bad but its all around the world of football happening.
Next it will be a crime to boo the opponents team news being read out before a game....
On July 10 2021 23:55 KwarK wrote: Banning all England fans from a stadium over one idiot smells a lot like collective punishment to me. It’s also unenforceable, surely. What’s to stop me going in as an Italy fan?
It's not just that, they were disrespecting the anthems the whole god damn tourney. But some people are defending this because "it's happening elsewhere" ... and some are pretending it's fine. The laser pointer incident is just UEFA ignoring the shit until it escalates even further. Start solving the issues and don't pretend it's not happeneing or the childish "but they;'re doing it too!!!"
Like those idiots cannot be silent for a minute. Fair play and respect my ass.
On July 10 2021 23:50 Jockmcplop wrote:
On July 10 2021 23:10 Ghostcom wrote: EDIT2: I agree it is difficult to stop people from bringing a laser to the game, but that is also why you have to punish it hard. So that people are deterred. But really, we are only in this situation because it was handled improperly during the game.
Seems like you don't want to continue discussing it but... I would imagine there are legal problems with punishing a club or a FA unless they specifically have done something wrong, unless the proof of lack of negligence is at least taken into account officially. Again in theory I agree that a harsh punishment for this kind of thing would work as a deterrent, but I just don't think you can do it, because you can be taken to court for doing so and the law will always side with the club if they can prove they didn't do anything wrong. Legally the club isn't responsible for something a fan has done if it is not something they can reasonably be expected to be able to stop.
Clubs are being punished for their fans chanting stupid stuff. Why they cannot be punished for their fans trying to blind people on the pitch then? Like... what's the difference? Where's the negligance at chanting? Not enough gags?
They do get punished, the clubs get a little fine and the fan gets banned...which is what happened here.
You want me to say that every coutnry boos like the English fans do? Have you watched anything else or do you watch with the sound off? The level of booing and whisteling is quite different, And even if so, it;s wrong and disrespectful and should be punished. It's not a god damn excuse.
Yes, and I think England should have been punished harsher.
You have watched only Euro 2020 then it seems....i suggest you tune into Copa America tonight and hear the booing there. You also realize that depending on which broadcast you watch they have volume controls for fan sound right? Also when a team like England or Hungary are playing at home with 40k fans vs 3k its going to be a bit lopsided in volume as well?
- Scottish fans booing England anthem
- German fans booing england anthem
- Liverpool fans booing the national anthem xD
- Welsh football fans boo English anthem in England playoff final
Are you for real? You dont hear the booing once the singing starts since the few English fans are more and lounder than the few hundred German idiots (who are also attacked by German speakers in the comments).
English crowds boo in the thousands.... thats not even comparable pande
So you wanted proof it happens, i mentioned the volume thing where clearly the German stand volumes are turned down and English away stand microphone turned up and you still defend them haha come off it. That game would have been a good 10,000 English fans there plus rather than the 3-4k danish fans on the weekend or what has been in the stadium for home games in Euro 2020 from away fans.
Like i said watch this game tonight! Argentina vs Brazil the battle of booing eachother! Where is my anti Brazil posts in the thread xD
Like others said, if it's happening elsewhere doesn't mean it's ok. I mean, here in our second/third division referees and away fans get brutally attacked (some guys were stoned, as in they threw big stones on them, and I met a guy, now former ref, who was in coma for a month because fans, and some of the players, attacked him because he called penalty against home team) so by that logic it's ok, perfectly fine. Because hey, if that kind of shit is happening elsewhere then that must mean it is allowed and cool to do!
There are also rapports in Denmark about english fans attacking danish fans after match, like trying to force scarf of young females and hair pulling. Going into a bus and hitting a father in front of family. English fans among Danish fans acting threating and the Police refused to do something about it. Because they where in save Dansh area, but what does it help with english bullies in there.
Lets just say only a small percent of danish people cheer for England at the moment, the only thing worse the a sour loser as a mean (dogshit) winner.
Of course it doesn't make it right and it isn't but it feels like whole of Europe is attacking England for it and turning blind eyes to everything else. Asking for our fans to be banned instantly for booing a national anthem and not making a big fuss when it happens before England do it, the same with laser pointers being a thing, in Copa America all this is happening tenfold but "not as many care" because its the same culprits all the time.
There wasn't this much uproar when the English fans were getting mulled in France in the previous Euros when were targeted by half of Europe's "ultras" who just turned up to fight with military style combat gear in targeted attacks which no one stopped haha.
England are not in the right here, i am not saying that, we have done some silly things from SECTIONS of fans, but to pnush the 100% for the 10% is harsh, or well punishing might be "ok" if it continues and doesn't stop, but to paint every fan in the country with the same brush for < 10% of fans is just sad state of affairs.
I mean head of European Union saying her "heart is with italy" and the Italian media running with stories that Boris Johnson is involved in getting us VAR decisions because of decisions he made with UEFA about cancelling the super league xD
On a footballing note, England deserve to be in the final, we beat Germany comfortably, beat everyone we have faced comfortably pretty much, only really looking poor in the Scotland game. Our toughest test on paper is Italy in the final but everything outside of football we are deservedly there competing, our second top 4 finish in two major tournaments!
I think 'booing the national anthem' resulting in some type of severe punishment sounds ridiculous. The laser pointer should result in severe punishment - but against the individual(s) who did it, not against 'England as a country'.
EPT
