EPT2018 - 2019 Football Thread - Page 91
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LennX
4570 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4179 Posts
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28870 Posts
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On December 23 2018 04:25 Pandemona wrote: No its more look what happens when players actually try and run around. In no universe does Victor Lindelof get the license to bring the ball up past the halfway line and then trail into the top of the box under Mourinho.. I dont agree with Roy Keane tbh, Roy Keane played the same way no matter what his situation was and its an easy way to play. Get the ball and kick the shit out of everyone while doing it. Every Fergie team that Roy Keane played in played with alot of freedom, its very easy to be motivated when you are having fun. If you had put Roy Keane in a United today, he would probably have kicked Mou's teeth in by now and just refused to play because of some honor bullshit like "I cant play on a team where I wont put in 100%" I guarantee you. Roy Keane is a legend but he is very much a stubborn asshole. So while he has a point, the whole "back in my day" schtick is a bit much. Especially because back in the day as soon as United started losting to Arsenal and Chelsea he turned out in a right tool to everyone. A didnt go bye without him doing something fucking stupid, so yeah Keane always put a shift in but if he was stubborn enough to find ways to get himself suspended by the club so he wouldnt have to. For everyone else that actually has to play football. Being forced to play like ass and not having the freedom to express yourself is going to make it hard to try. Why would anyone try or go the extra mile in a system that they have done it for, that keeps failing and no longer trust? Its instinctive to not do so. Thats on Mou.. If it was just here at United it would be one thing, but this is a pretty obvious trend at this point so its clearly not the players that are the problem. | ||
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
They were not playing for him, they won trophies under Mourinho playing this way then this season because he called so many of them out and benched Pogba half the dressing rebelled on him because they all want to be friends with Pogba . Then all of a sudden they dont buy into what he wants and down tools. Then Pogba plays and they all smile again and can go an "express themselves" lol. There is no difference to this game compared to one vs Fulham in which they played ok and won 3-1. Yet this time they woin 5-1 because they actually ran more. ![[image loading]](https://i.gyazo.com/b11938793e531aae99d279c63d235ad4.png) ![[image loading]](https://i.gyazo.com/f2dcbb4b643cdb5c4f3d7ff55a9881a1.png) I mean what is the difference here? Fulham actually get on the ball and try and play and Cardiff don't. Yet in this game Yanited had even more shots on goal but 11% less possession. Stuff you mention on Roy Keane is very wrong as well, that Yanited team were not the Harlem Globe Trotters at all and Keane himself was the master of the holding midfield position. He broke up play and passed it 5 yards to Scholes or Giggs/Beckham. He did the dirty stuff and was proud of doing that. He had bust ups with a lot of players for not trying in that team as well | ||
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sneirac
Germany3464 Posts
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
He clearly is not a failure of a manager but this opinion of mine on the players downing tools is echoed by a lot of ex pros and pundits not just me. I just agree with them as i saw it first hand happen at Chelsea under him. | ||
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sneirac
Germany3464 Posts
He isn't an innocent misunderstood genius that gets betrayed by entitled brats, he just burns out his players with his boring but effective defensive mindset, even against vastly inferior teams, and his inability not to be a narcissist twat with the media. Yes the players should have been more professional, but I don't fault anybody for not wanting to try for someone that will immediately backstab them publicly after a single bad game to avoid personal responsibility. Once can happen to everybody, twice is unusual, three times is a pattern. Oh and he didn't get sacked by Madrid because they would have blocked his Chelsea return and knew they could get rid of him fo free. | ||
TheNewEra
Germany3128 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4179 Posts
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Espers
United Kingdom606 Posts
even for defensive football he has fallen far behind, Simeone's teams are much better drilled. Mourinho still plays like he did 10 years ago and it's just not working anymore. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8912 Posts
i mean i never thought mou was a good fit for united and didnt want him coming in the first place, but if hes come then you accept it and do your job. mou is a winner and hes known for being defensive in his tactics. you either trust that he knows wtf hes doing given his track record and you play your part, or you leave the club. you may not enjoy your football but you are being paid millions a year to do a job, not fuck around on the football pitch however way you like it. the lack of discipline and unprofessionalism is disgusting tbh. if the players had done their part and mous tactics still sucked ass then the club would take action as necessary and all responsibility would rightfully fall onto mou. in this case, although mou definitely hasnt been perfect, hes been scapegoated by a bunch of players that were quite clearly playing like shit just because they were having a sook. chelsea 2.0 | ||
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On December 23 2018 07:40 Pandemona wrote: Stuff you mention on Roy Keane is very wrong as well, that Yanited team were not the Harlem Globe Trotters at all and Keane himself was the master of the holding midfield position. He broke up play and passed it 5 yards to Scholes or Giggs/Beckham. He did the dirty stuff and was proud of doing that. He had bust ups with a lot of players for not trying in that team as well Well they werent the Harlem Globe Trotters because the GobeTrotters are an amateur exhibition team. You just told me im wrong and then proceeded to tell me about Keanes playstyle when none of comments had anything to do with his playstyle aside from the "not trying bit" which was a crock of shit because that was his excuse every time they lost. Which wasnt consistent with everyone elses view half the time. ....Hence the bust ups. Fergie wasnt one to let people off on "not trying" either. It was just Keans go to reasoning for anything that ever went wrong because otherwise he would have to admit that they got beat by teams better than them which his stuck up ass could never do. And Kudos two him for the mentality and all but that is how it was. "Oh look at my team mates more interested in Rolex's and Cars and parties, thass why we loze fuck these guys so unprofessional". The only thing he has going for him is that he went all out everytime. But thats easier to do when your job is to literally go around kicking the shit out of everyone. Being a tool and then going out and giving 100% yourself while maintaining a toxic environment is literally raging gamer 101. Anyway I said he had a valid point, but I also believe that these same players at Chelsea and United if they can play for another manager and they cant for another one regardless of whether they are wrong or right, its on the manager that they are failing him. Thats the bottom line no matter whatever critisim you want to level at the players for whatever they do or dont do. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28870 Posts
Knowing this, the right thing to do as a manager for newer generation players is to stop dishing out this abuse and adopt a new pedagogical style, not to stick to your old ways and bemoan the new generation. I mean, Mourinho at least used to be multi-faceted in this area; his old players spoke really warmly of his personality, that he cared for them outside the football pitch and that he was a nice guy. I have hardly seen any of those stories from real madrid, chelsea 2.0 or man united, but I heard several of them come from chelsea 1.0 and inter players. It's totally plausible that much of the explanation for this is that his behavior towards his players was appreciated by his earlier squads and not by the later ones (because of generational differences in attitudes?), as well as playstyle/squad conflicts, and this leading to the players losing faith in him leading to them not working hard enough to make his style of play viable (or any style of play, really), then mourinho becomes defensive because his poor results make people question his tactical genius, he lashes out against his players because one thing that really fuels mourinho is wanting people to appreciate his tactical genius, the mood becomes even worse, and then he has to get sacked to salvage the season. Maybe the entire reason for Mourinho's failings for the past years can actually be attributed to a change in player material mentalities. *(I don't think so personally). But even if I were to accept that as a valid reason for him no longer being successful with his teams, he'd still be the one who has to change and adapt. Not 'all players that want to play for him'. | ||
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Dingodile
4139 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8912 Posts
i think the problem with united was not mous tactics, but the execution. ive never felt that we were tactically outclassed in the games we lost. not a lot of them anyway. 90% of the games we lost or drew were due to player performances. it was so easy to single out bad performers rather than say "the team played well but we got outclassed". i think this is related to the weak mentality thing. mous tactics require his players to be extremely disciplined and tough, not just physically but mentally. his tactics would still work if he had younger versions of his previous generations' players. they didnt work this time because our players now get tilted by mistakes or lack the fortitude to carry his tactics out. mou criticises this (pogba in particular) and things go south. i guess you could blame mou for not realising his players lacked the mental fortitude to execute his plans and adapt accordingly, but i dont believe for a second that mou is washed up and his tactics are out of date. | ||
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Espers
United Kingdom606 Posts
they might respond differently to the old school screaming manager abuse, but it's really Mourinho who changed. he went totally crazy paranoid with experiences at Madrid after they weren't convinced of him and started slating his whole squad publicly, he didn't do that beforehand and now no one has a good word to say about him. Ramos is more inline with the older generation of players and he hates Mourinho. | ||
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clusen
Germany8702 Posts
On December 23 2018 21:17 evilfatsh1t wrote: i dont doubt that mou was great to the players for most of the time he was in charge. i havent heard stories of him being abusive like old school football managers were but i have heard stories of how players had great relationships with him and appreciated things he did for them. The 3 biggest stars wanted to leave in the summer and all but 4 players from the whole squad wanted him gone apparently. That's how much the team liked him. I don't know why you would bring abusive behaviour to the discussion as it has never been mentioned anywhere, that shit doesn't fly in todays football - compared to 20 years ago the scene got a LOT more professional (which also means more demanding on the players mentally btw, which could explain parts of the thin-skinned nature of younger, modern players people already mentioned here) Belittling his players and his club in public might be a big reason for the resentment shown towards him, tho, don't you think? Especially his demeaning comments about his players after the second place last season. Blaming the club for his mistakes at the transfer market. Not changing his approach after it stopped working to the extend it did. Have you considered that the players, after getting second place last season, actually felt like they have done their best despite the circumstances, and the one who didn't was the guy who got removed? And then the hubris of Mou... Not saying that every player was perfect yadda yadda, but I don't think that was the biggest issue. | ||
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
I agree that you probably should change now as the new generation of players are not used to it and mommy coddled to much but i still don't think Mourinho has fallen from grace. Roy Keane as well as he stated in the original quote is that he understands wanting to party and what not, but do it when your retired, a football career isn't that long! On December 23 2018 21:53 clusen wrote: The 3 biggest stars wanted to leave in the summer and all but 4 players from the whole squad wanted him gone apparently. That's how much the team liked him. I don't know why you would bring abusive behaviour to the discussion as it has never been mentioned anywhere, that shit doesn't fly in todays football - compared to 20 years ago the scene got a LOT more professional (which also means more demanding on the players mentally btw, which could explain parts of the thin-skinned nature of younger, modern players people already mentioned here) Belittling his players and his club in public might be a big reason for the resentment shown towards him, tho, don't you think? Especially his demeaning comments about his players after the second place last season. Blaming the club for his mistakes at the transfer market. Not changing his approach after it stopped working to the extend it did. Have you considered that the players, after getting second place last season, actually felt like they have done their best despite the circumstances, and the one who didn't was the guy who got removed? And then the hubris of Mou... Not saying that every player was perfect yadda yadda, but I don't think that was the biggest issue. Who? Pogba was the only name linked to a move and that was to Barca in which it never materialized one bit but even so that is the only player that was linked away that was the top player. Madrid signed Tibo so De Gea not an option. Lukaku wasn't going anywhere. Sanchez had already signed, Martial? Swap deals were in the "press" for him but we all know Mourinho now said that he would let him go in term of replacement but the Man utd higher ups said no he stays. They don't have any other good players lol. | ||
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