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On January 23 2015 12:37 iKill[ShocK] wrote:
so literally nfl coaches don't care about this deflation shit
players don't care
teams don't care
So why is this a big deal... if teams or players legitimately think Pats cheated they'll at least say something. Its probably just some bullshit espn/media/journalist is trying to spin to waste time before the superbowl.
While the media is absolutely hyping this up for something to do in the downtime before the superbowl, whether the players and teams care or not it's still a team that has done something contradictory to the rules set by the NFL.
Did it effect the outcome of the game? Of course not, game was a blow out. But to put it in a different context. If someone stole your car then brought it back a week later still in the same condition, it doesn't matter that at the end of it all you have your car in perfect condition, the person that stole it still broke the law. Just because them cheating didn't directly effect the outcome doesn't make it okay that they cheated. This is a team and a coach that have a noted history of bending the rules, flat out cheating and trying to take advantage of poorly written rules. At some point you'd think a message has to be sent.
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Why do people keep referring to "the game" as if the first time they smoked weed or drank booze before 21 the cops swept in and arrested them?
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On January 23 2015 12:58 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2015 12:37 iKill[ShocK] wrote:
so literally nfl coaches don't care about this deflation shit
players don't care
teams don't care
So why is this a big deal... if teams or players legitimately think Pats cheated they'll at least say something. Its probably just some bullshit espn/media/journalist is trying to spin to waste time before the superbowl. While the media is absolutely hyping this up for something to do in the downtime before the superbowl, whether the players and teams care or not it's still a team that has done something contradictory to the rules set by the NFL. Did it effect the outcome of the game? Of course not, game was a blow out. But to put it in a different context. If someone stole your car then brought it back a week later still in the same condition, it doesn't matter that at the end of it all you have your car in perfect condition, the person that stole it still broke the law. Just because them cheating didn't directly effect the outcome doesn't make it okay that they cheated. This is a team and a coach that have a noted history of bending the rules, flat out cheating and trying to take advantage of poorly written rules. At some point you'd think a message has to be sent.
While I agree with your message, the people calling for New England to forfeit their Superbowl spot (not just fans, notable media members and people who cover the NFL) don't get that the punishment doesn't fit the crime.
I think this is just another black eye for the league, and while they could make an example of the Patriots, the fact that Kraft is on Goodell's side and was defending him vehemently during the Ray Rice incident means that any report released by the NFL is going to be rather inconsequential. The real problem with this case is it appears there's no factual evidence (to the public's knowledge) that they know who deflated the balls. It could just as easily be Belichek as it could be a ball boy, and nobody anywhere can make an argument of how it's one over the other with 100% certainty. The one thing we do know is there's no way this organization gets the benefit of the doubt. The punishment should just be the typical one for this violation and be a hefty fine (more than the $25k figure) with loss of draft picks. The real damage is that no amount of winning can reverse the negativity around this franchise with this coach, and even if they won every single Superbowl for the next 10 years until Belichek retired they'd still be labelled as nothing but cheaters.
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Regardless of the significance of deflating the balls, does anyone doubt that Brady was lying his ass off during the press conference? I don't believe for a moment that he didn't know that the balls were deflated during the game.
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We already know the Pats lose in the court of public opinions. I'd like to see if there's any substantial proof that comes out from a report.
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On January 23 2015 13:57 xDaunt wrote:
Regardless of the significance of deflating the balls, does anyone doubt that Brady was lying his ass off during the press conference? I don't believe for a moment that he didn't know that the balls were deflated during the game.
Marino and Theisman would disagree with you
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On January 23 2015 12:37 iKill[ShocK] wrote:
so literally nfl coaches don't care about this deflation shit
players don't care
teams don't care
So why is this a big deal... if teams or players legitimately think Pats cheated they'll at least say something. Its probably just some bullshit espn/media/journalist is trying to spin to waste time before the superbowl.
I've heard players that kinda do care though. Nobody thinks it won them the Colts game, but plenty of players have come out and talked about how it bothers them that this shit happened and that they can definitely think of ways it effects playing a game(like, being able to grip the ball better to not fumble, which is hilarious considering a ton of the pushback when this got leaked was BUT BROS BLOUNT RAN OVER THE COLTS LULULUL.. even though that's still probably true because he wasn't getting touched until 5 yards down field a bunch).
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On January 23 2015 14:06 giftdgecko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2015 13:57 xDaunt wrote:
Regardless of the significance of deflating the balls, does anyone doubt that Brady was lying his ass off during the press conference? I don't believe for a moment that he didn't know that the balls were deflated during the game. Marino and Theisman would disagree with you
They did not say that Brady could have been unaware that the ball was deflated. They just said that they didn't think that Brady did anything wrong. And they said that before today's press conference. Quarterback is a high precision position. Quarterbacks are obviously intimately familiar with how a football should feel. Hell, they are so familiar with it that they all do things to manipulate the ball so that it feels right to them. Given that this is teamliquid, I am going to go out on a limb presume that all of us are highly experienced PC gamers who have logged tons of time with our mice. Like all the rest of you, I know instantly when there is something wrong with my mouse or with the mouse pad. Same principles apply to the deflated ball. Brady knew, and he lied about knowing today.
EDIT: And again, I don't think that this is a particularly big deal for the AFC championship game. However, let's not pretend that it does not reflect very badly upon the Patriots and the integrity of the game as a whole.
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The biggest crime Tom Brady committed was wearing that beanie to the press conference.
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On January 23 2015 14:57 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2015 14:06 giftdgecko wrote:On January 23 2015 13:57 xDaunt wrote:
Regardless of the significance of deflating the balls, does anyone doubt that Brady was lying his ass off during the press conference? I don't believe for a moment that he didn't know that the balls were deflated during the game. Marino and Theisman would disagree with you They did not say that Brady could have been unaware that the ball was deflated. They just said that they didn't think that Brady did anything wrong. And they said that before today's press conference. Quarterback is a high precision position. Quarterbacks are obviously intimately familiar with how a football should feel. Hell, they are so familiar with it that they all do things to manipulate the ball so that it feels right to them. Given that this is teamliquid, I am going to go out on a limb presume that all of us are highly experienced PC gamers who have logged tons of time with our mice. Like all the rest of you, I know instantly when there is something wrong with my mouse or with the mouse pad. Same principles apply to the deflated ball. Brady knew, and he lied about knowing today. EDIT: And again, I don't think that this is a particularly big deal for the AFC championship game. However, let's not pretend that it does not reflect very badly upon the Patriots and the integrity of the game as a whole.
Theismann said he inflated a football to 13psi and one to 11 psi and could not tell the difference between the two. He also referenced Marino's point that the last thing you think about as a QB at the line of scrimmage is the weight of a football... Yeah if the football wasn't broken in you would notice, but that's a huge difference. A $7,500 difference evidentally. Who did what and why I don't know but I believe Brady could have not noticed. The Colts linebacker I believe said he didn't notice either. Only people who did were the equipment managers who weigh balls (lol) for a living.
link
So you want to say Brady could have known? Sure, somebody who handles balls (lol) as part of their job noticed it. Do you know he lied about it? No. A HOF QB and at least 2 refs are saying they didn't notice a difference handling them.
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On January 23 2015 16:08 giftdgecko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2015 14:57 xDaunt wrote:On January 23 2015 14:06 giftdgecko wrote:On January 23 2015 13:57 xDaunt wrote:
Regardless of the significance of deflating the balls, does anyone doubt that Brady was lying his ass off during the press conference? I don't believe for a moment that he didn't know that the balls were deflated during the game. Marino and Theisman would disagree with you They did not say that Brady could have been unaware that the ball was deflated. They just said that they didn't think that Brady did anything wrong. And they said that before today's press conference. Quarterback is a high precision position. Quarterbacks are obviously intimately familiar with how a football should feel. Hell, they are so familiar with it that they all do things to manipulate the ball so that it feels right to them. Given that this is teamliquid, I am going to go out on a limb presume that all of us are highly experienced PC gamers who have logged tons of time with our mice. Like all the rest of you, I know instantly when there is something wrong with my mouse or with the mouse pad. Same principles apply to the deflated ball. Brady knew, and he lied about knowing today. EDIT: And again, I don't think that this is a particularly big deal for the AFC championship game. However, let's not pretend that it does not reflect very badly upon the Patriots and the integrity of the game as a whole. Theismann said he inflated a football to 13psi and one to 11 psi and could not tell the difference between the two. He also referenced Marino's point that the last thing you think about as a QB at the line of scrimmage is the weight of a football... Yeah if the football wasn't broken in you would notice, but that's a huge difference. A $7,500 difference evidentally. Who did what and why I don't know but I believe Brady could have not noticed. The Colts linebacker I believe said he didn't notice either. Only people who did were the equipment managers who weigh balls (lol) for a living. linkSo you want to say Brady could have known? Sure, somebody who handles balls (lol) as part of their job noticed it. Do you know he lied about it? No. A HOF QB and at least 2 refs are saying they didn't notice a difference handling them.
Where are you getting it that the only people that noticed are the equipment staff? Other people noticed. The Colts noticed earlier in the year even.
Also, Theisman's anecdote of not recognizing the difference could be combated with Brunell and The Bus correctly identifying the difference in 3 balls. Rodgers has been a hot quote alongside this story for talking about how he loves his ball overinflated, something he wouldn't have a preference for if it wasn't noticeable.
The Marino thing is also silly. Sure you aren't thinking about the PSI of the ball as you read pre-snap coverage, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't prefer the ball snapped into your hands to be one or the other, or wouldn't notice when you go to make your throw.
Being allowed to give the refs balls of broken in and pressured to your preference was a big enough issue for QBs to actually lobby for implementation, and now when those implemented rules and allowances are being cheated the defense is that it doesn't matter?
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After listening to Brunnell and all of ESPN's stuff on how QBs handle Footballs i think Brady is flat out lying that he couldn't tell the difference. And, I think he is lying about not knowing why the game was delayed in the 2nd half.
This crap about "in front of 70,000 fans"... the guy is a veteran QB with multiple Superbowl wins and losses. Playing in front of 70,000 fans is ZERO distraction for him.
Brady was quoted in 2011 as saying he prefers a deflated ball. At the press conference he selected the lowest possible PSI of 12.5 as the "perfect ball for him". He did not deny the 2011 quote during the press conference... he could've said it was a joke... taken out of context..anything.. instead he just said nothing... why? prolly cause its just plain true.
So I'd say they deflated the balls slightly because that is the kind of ball Brady prefers to throw.
Pitchers are always trying to screw around with the baseball they are throwing and it appears the same holds true for QBs and the football.
I wonder how many footballs will be 13.5 PSI for the Superbowl. I'm guessing it'll be ZERO.
John Madden's view on this issue is pretty interesting
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/21/john-madden-blame-tom-brady-for-deflated-footballs/
and here is the source for Brady stating he preferred the deflated football
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/20/brady-said-in-2011-he-likes-deflated-footballs/
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On January 23 2015 16:27 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2015 16:08 giftdgecko wrote:On January 23 2015 14:57 xDaunt wrote:On January 23 2015 14:06 giftdgecko wrote:On January 23 2015 13:57 xDaunt wrote:
Regardless of the significance of deflating the balls, does anyone doubt that Brady was lying his ass off during the press conference? I don't believe for a moment that he didn't know that the balls were deflated during the game. Marino and Theisman would disagree with you They did not say that Brady could have been unaware that the ball was deflated. They just said that they didn't think that Brady did anything wrong. And they said that before today's press conference. Quarterback is a high precision position. Quarterbacks are obviously intimately familiar with how a football should feel. Hell, they are so familiar with it that they all do things to manipulate the ball so that it feels right to them. Given that this is teamliquid, I am going to go out on a limb presume that all of us are highly experienced PC gamers who have logged tons of time with our mice. Like all the rest of you, I know instantly when there is something wrong with my mouse or with the mouse pad. Same principles apply to the deflated ball. Brady knew, and he lied about knowing today. EDIT: And again, I don't think that this is a particularly big deal for the AFC championship game. However, let's not pretend that it does not reflect very badly upon the Patriots and the integrity of the game as a whole. Theismann said he inflated a football to 13psi and one to 11 psi and could not tell the difference between the two. He also referenced Marino's point that the last thing you think about as a QB at the line of scrimmage is the weight of a football... Yeah if the football wasn't broken in you would notice, but that's a huge difference. A $7,500 difference evidentally. Who did what and why I don't know but I believe Brady could have not noticed. The Colts linebacker I believe said he didn't notice either. Only people who did were the equipment managers who weigh balls (lol) for a living. linkSo you want to say Brady could have known? Sure, somebody who handles balls (lol) as part of their job noticed it. Do you know he lied about it? No. A HOF QB and at least 2 refs are saying they didn't notice a difference handling them. Where are you getting it that the only people that noticed are the equipment staff? Other people noticed. The Colts noticed earlier in the year even. Also, Theisman's anecdote of not recognizing the difference could be combated with Brunell and The Bus correctly identifying the difference in 3 balls. Rodgers has been a hot quote alongside this story for talking about how he loves his ball overinflated, something he wouldn't have a preference for if it wasn't noticeable. The Marino thing is also silly. Sure you aren't thinking about the PSI of the ball as you read pre-snap coverage, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't prefer the ball snapped into your hands to be one or the other, or wouldn't notice when you go to make your throw. Being allowed to give the refs balls of broken in and pressured to your preference was a big enough issue for QBs to actually lobby for implementation, and now when those implemented rules and allowances are being cheated the defense is that it doesn't matter?
Brunell (who damn near cried over this for some reason) and Bettis are actively trying to figure out which is which in that video. I still value the opinion of Theismann and Marino over those two.
ESPN I believe reported that the Colts linebacker who intercepted it said he didn't notice any difference and the refs obviously didn't notice it because they kept them all in play. The Ravens kickers said that the balls felt deflated when they played NE the week before, which was the kicking balls, which you would want overinflated to give an edge not under. Other than that Harbaugh himself said nobody noticed anything.
Rodgers may love them overinflated but his ability to notice the difference in game might be a different thing. In practice you get to watch every throw, repeat routes, and you notice little things because you have the time to see them. The Marino "thing" is that he believes Brady could have not noticed, because he wasn't looking for that (like Brunell and the bus were).
I'm not saying it doesn't matter, as a Pats fan this was the year to say fuck you to anyone who blindly yelled spygate and now all that's down the tube. It's against the integrity of the game and the spirit of the game to fuck with the entire game by messing with the thing you use every play. I'm simply saying I don't believe Brady is incapable of not noticing based on what I've heard. He holds the ball for 3 seconds at a time and has to keep track of 21 other players positions on the field and figure out who is doing what while running through his reads. You want to listen to Brunell over Theismann, go ahead (it'll be the first time he's been relevant since college). Either way unless someone admits to something we'll never know what happened.
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I just hope the poor sap who ends up taking the fall for this gets season tickets for life or something. The NFL is like any other organization that knows the value of plausible deniability.
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I have no reason to believe it was intentional rather than the result of a faulty gauge.
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On January 23 2015 10:58 giftdgecko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2015 10:38 cLutZ wrote:On January 23 2015 08:03 QuanticHawk wrote:
Moving gears away from how heavy Brady likes his balls, the 49ers hired Tarver, the oakland Dc for the past three years, to be their linebacker coach. He was previously the Niners linebacker coach during the GLORY DAYS of 2005-2010. Because why wouldn't you hire the dcoordinator from the vaunted Raiders defense??
This is on the heels of hiring Tony Sparano as the TE coach, and getting denied for an interview with Vance Joseph for the DC position. Who the fuck is Vance Joseph you may ask? Oh, just the db coach for the Bengals, who has zero coordinator experience, and was a secondary coach with the Niners during their dynasty from during hte same timeframe as Tarver.
So after three trips to the NFC Title game in four years, the Niners decided to target retreads who coached there during the franchise's worst stretch in 30 fucking years, and poach shitty coaches from the Raiders.
The rate at which this franchise is rapidly swirling the tubes is so astounding that I'm starting to be humored by it. While I dont know anything about the other guys, Sporano as a TE coach isn't a bad thing. There is a reason most guys get HC positions and then fail, and its because they were good coordinators. Some really good coordinators are failed Head Coaches like Dick Lebeau and Norv Turner. Other mediocre head coaches are elite coordinators like Rex Ryan, Gary Kubiak, and Riverboat Ron. I assume you mean Ron the linebackers coach? He never impressed me enough as a DC to be elite, those Bears teams would've been good with anyone at the helm
That the Bears D was not good before or after Ron disagrees with your idea. As does the fact that the Chargers D got better each year he was there (granted, they actually got worse from '07-'08 when he implemented his D, but I believe that's also the year that Merriman and like 3-4 others went out for significant time, which usually drops rankings). In his final year, they were the number one defense by yardage, and 10th by points, compared to 25/15, and 16/11 the two previous years (in that order).
The Niners are proof that egos will kill a great team in the NFL. I think by the end of the year, it will be very apparent to everyone that Jed York and company have no idea how to properly manage a franchise, and that they got lucky as hell when Harbaugh came into town.
There are so many position coaches that none of us have ever heard of that it's kind of a silly question. Granted, I don't think he'll be an upgrade over Shannahan, but whatever. Lots of guys get promoted from QB coach to OC every year.
On January 23 2015 11:38 Chewbacca. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2015 11:25 AgentW wrote:On January 23 2015 11:22 Chewbacca. wrote:On January 23 2015 11:14 AgentW wrote:
I guess they could put them to 12.5 psi in the boiler room and then give them to officials to measure. With 2.25 hours until game time, they'd deflate. If that was the case, it would be certainly devious but seemingly not outside the rules. I'm not sure of the SOP here. I know the balls have to be handed over to the refs about 2 hours before the game begins, but do the refs typically evaluate them right away or wait until 10-15 minutes before game time to do so? Obviously you don't know either, but this makes a massive difference, the starting temperature wouldn't have to be that high at all if they do it evaluate fairly quickly. Yeah I just don't know. I sense that while this is physically possible, it just seems unlikely. Really? I think it seems fairly likely if the refs normally evaluate the balls right away. Patriots would just have had to put the balls at 12.5-12.8 psi range in a ~95+ degree room shortly before the evaluation, and come halftime when they've dropped to ~50 degrees (Game time temperatures) they would be about 2 psi lower as is being reported. Edit: Really likely -> fairly likely
I think that's pretty unlikely, if only because the refs would notice that the footballs were significantly warmer than they should have been. Also, if you watch the video that one guy posted, he tested the heat of the ball. I imagine the NFL has a similar process in place.
I wish there was more discussion happening in this thread than this dumb shit, but I'm going to add what I hope is my final thought on the matter. I don't think most of the people talking about the difference in inflation have had much experience playing football (even if only throwing the football around). Until the ball is so flat that you can't get a spiral on it, you're not really paying attention to the inflation when you're throwing it. Again, I'm not a high-level football player, but I can't imagine that it changes just because they're better than I am. I suppose that a defender might notice the difference, since they're accustomed to getting hit with rocks, but I think a QB would only think about the ball if he couldn't grip it well in either direction: too hard or too soft. If the ball collapses too much, then you can't throw it well either, just as if you can't grip down on the ball, you can't throw it well.
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51575 Posts
At least DeFilippo isn't a retread failure hire like Bill Musgrave or Greg Roman.
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Someone needs to give Lynch a ELI5 of what a rule is and what happens when you break rules stated in a contract given to you by your employer.
Intentionally breaking simple rules and whining when you get punished is getting pretty annoying
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/4QrPr6l.png)
Surprising, maybe it's just due to the sheer number of Pats fans who want to vote that it means nothing?
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EPT
