On March 03 2013 15:26 GolemMadness wrote: Some people were saying that when he came back he'd never be the same, he wouldn't be a top player anymore, etc. FOOLS.
I guess this is where I make the admission i don't see him as an elite level player. Yes hes a great player and an amazing offensive threat and I won't take that from him, but I find his lack of a high level defensive game rather disturbing for a center that gets the hype he does. If I would to compare him to another center of similar age in Toews I'd take Toews over Crosby. Yes They are both amazing players in their own right, but I see Toews as a more complete center with the complete 2 way package and seems to be a better leader on his respective team on both ends of the ice.
I'd take Toews over Crosby too and it isn't just because of this season or the season Chicago won the Cup. It's the intangibles Toews brings in the room. I think he leads by example better. I just don't like the way Sid handles his business on the ice. Lots of guys call him a whiny little brat and he never really had a good defensive game to begin. This dates back to his junior days. This doesn't mean that Crosby isn't an elite player. He's makes up for it on the score sheet to pad those numbers.
On March 04 2013 05:54 QuanticHawk wrote: any time you are trying to make a point based on +/- you're pretty much wrong
On March 03 2013 15:26 GolemMadness wrote: Some people were saying that when he came back he'd never be the same, he wouldn't be a top player anymore, etc. FOOLS.
I guess this is where I make the admission i don't see him as an elite level player. Yes hes a great player and an amazing offensive threat and I won't take that from him, but I find his lack of a high level defensive game rather disturbing for a center that gets the hype he does. If I would to compare him to another center of similar age in Toews I'd take Toews over Crosby. Yes They are both amazing players in their own right, but I see Toews as a more complete center with the complete 2 way package and seems to be a better leader on his respective team on both ends of the ice.
Toews is amazing and I can see where you're coming from. However, I wouldn't say that Crosby is that bad defensively. He's still +9 where Toews is +10 (for how much the +- stat even matters, necessarily). Certainly he isn't so bad that you'd have to drop him out of elite level status. I mean, would you consider Stamkos an elite player?
I think you can debate that Crosby isn't the BEST player, but not elite seems to be stretching it a bit.
But how much do you see Crosby on the PK? +/- is a very skewed stat especially if you compare Toews vs Crosby. Towes is at a +10 with only 18 points vs Crosby at +9 with 34 points. To me that says Crosby is a defensive liability on the ice and while hes definitely a greatly gifted offensive player and extremely elite in that regard his defensive game is lacking with is kinda disappointing to me considering all the massive media hype and talk about being the best player in the game right now. I honestly believe it the Pens told him he needs to step up the defensive side of his game he could become a more complete 2-way player. What if Crosby was getting 10-20 less points a season but had 10-30 more blocked shots and was a key part of the PK? Crosby is an elite offensive player in a 2-way position. To me its kinda contradictory its like an offensive defenseman.
I disagree with the common idea that your top talent needs to kill penalties and block shots. Grinders can do that - blocking shots and killing penalties can be taught, elite offensive talent cannot be. Why waste your goal-scorers by putting them out in situations where they can't score unless you have no other option?
And given that Crosby is a beast when it comes to holding the puck in the offensive zone (possibly the best player in the league in this regard), how much does his lack of defensive 'prowess' really matter? Much of the 'modern NHL' emphasizes 'not losing' over winning. Not giving up goals over scoring goals. Makes sense, because it's easier. But when you have the best player on the planet on your team (yeah, that's an opinion right there), you should use him as such.
edit: As an aside, the blanket hate for Crosby has always bothered me. It's perception over reality. When he scored the gold-medal winning goal I thought "finally, people can stop hating Sidney Crosby." Nope. It's like the Nickelback effect except Crosby is actually good.
On March 03 2013 15:26 GolemMadness wrote: Some people were saying that when he came back he'd never be the same, he wouldn't be a top player anymore, etc. FOOLS.
I guess this is where I make the admission i don't see him as an elite level player. Yes hes a great player and an amazing offensive threat and I won't take that from him, but I find his lack of a high level defensive game rather disturbing for a center that gets the hype he does. If I would to compare him to another center of similar age in Toews I'd take Toews over Crosby. Yes They are both amazing players in their own right, but I see Toews as a more complete center with the complete 2 way package and seems to be a better leader on his respective team on both ends of the ice.
Toews is amazing and I can see where you're coming from. However, I wouldn't say that Crosby is that bad defensively. He's still +9 where Toews is +10 (for how much the +- stat even matters, necessarily). Certainly he isn't so bad that you'd have to drop him out of elite level status. I mean, would you consider Stamkos an elite player?
I think you can debate that Crosby isn't the BEST player, but not elite seems to be stretching it a bit.
But how much do you see Crosby on the PK? +/- is a very skewed stat especially if you compare Toews vs Crosby. Towes is at a +10 with only 18 points vs Crosby at +9 with 34 points. To me that says Crosby is a defensive liability on the ice and while hes definitely a greatly gifted offensive player and extremely elite in that regard his defensive game is lacking with is kinda disappointing to me considering all the massive media hype and talk about being the best player in the game right now. I honestly believe it the Pens told him he needs to step up the defensive side of his game he could become a more complete 2-way player. What if Crosby was getting 10-20 less points a season but had 10-30 more blocked shots and was a key part of the PK? Crosby is an elite offensive player in a 2-way position. To me its kinda contradictory its like an offensive defenseman.
I disagree with the common idea that your top talent needs to kill penalties and block shots. Grinders can do that - blocking shots and killing penalties can be taught, elite offensive talent cannot be. Why waste your goal-scorers by putting them out in situations where they can't score unless you have no other option?
And given that Crosby is a beast when it comes to holding the puck in the offensive zone (possibly the best player in the league in this regard), how much does his lack of defensive 'prowess' really matter? Much of the 'modern NHL' emphasizes 'not losing' over winning. Not giving up goals over scoring goals. Makes sense, because it's easier. But when you have the best player on the planet on your team (yeah, that's an opinion right there), you should use him as such.
edit: As an aside, the blanket hate for Crosby has always bothered me. It's perception over reality. When he scored the gold-medal winning goal I thought "finally, people can stop hating Sidney Crosby." Nope. It's like the Nickelback effect except Crosby is actually good.
Here's my perspective as an outsider of the Pens fanbase. Crosby great offensive player yes. Best player on his team, most likely. Best player in the world? Hell fucking no. Hes probably the best OFFENSIVE center in the game of hockey. Best overall player not at all. He doesnt contribute to the defensive side of the game when playing a role that is key to good 2-way hockey. Which is especially important when he plays the key position for good 2-way hockey.
I see it as id rather have good all round players that may be slightly above or below average at everything then players that are absolute stand outs on one end of the ice but may as well not exist on the other end. There needs to be balance atleast in some aspect and for as much hype as Crosby has it doesnt make sense to me. Yes you need players that grind it out and the players that stand out on one end of the ice, but those stand outs should be your wingers not your centermen.
The blanket hate comes probably from alot of the favoritism he gets. Part of the problem is also the fact he doesnt have a good image about him. You dont hear glowing reviews about him or that hes a really nice guy/awesome teammate comments you hear alot of the opposite and that makes it easier to not like the guy. Its one of those if youre a media star you cant be a dick thing.
since when did anyone think that sid isn't a good two way player? i didnt even know there was people that believe that besides crazy people who think his +/- is indicative of him being a liability
he's not a top 5 defensive center or anything, but ever since his 2nd or 3rd year where he decided to up his faceoff game, he's been very good on faceoffs. he's perennially in the top digits for take aways. granted, they're not constantly dropping him in there against the best opposition because he's a top 2 scorer in the league but the dude is miles away from a defensive liability
as for the hate on him, that's easy. he's a top 3 if not the best player in the game and he gets more hype than anyone else. even beyond that, he's a little chippy, cheap shotting fuck face one the ice. there are plenty of videos of him diving, hacking at ankles and popping dudes in the head, slew footing and the like. no doubt hate for him comes from a number of angles, but that one is very much grounded in fact.
doesnt change the fact that he is a top 3 player in the game right now
On March 05 2013 05:36 QuanticHawk wrote: since when did anyone think that sid isn't a good two way player? i didnt even know there was people that believe that besides crazy people who think his +/- is indicative of him being a liability
he's not a top 5 defensive center or anything, but ever since his 2nd or 3rd year where he decided to up his faceoff game, he's been very good on faceoffs. he's perennially in the top digits for take aways. granted, they're not constantly dropping him in there against the best opposition because he's a top 2 scorer in the league but the dude is miles away from a defensive liability
as for the hate on him, that's easy. he's a top 3 if not the best player in the game and he gets more hype than anyone else. even beyond that, he's a little chippy, cheap shotting fuck face one the ice. there are plenty of videos of him diving, hacking at ankles and popping dudes in the head, slew footing and the like. no doubt hate for him comes from a number of angles, but that one is very much grounded in fact.
doesnt change the fact that he is a top 3 player in the game right now
This x100. The very suggestion that Toews might be better than Crosby is just lunacy. +/- is a team stat, and should never, ever be used as an argument that a forward is better than another defensively unless it is a comparison of players on the same team. Crosby is a pretty good defensive forward. He's not Selke worthy by any standard, but he's defensively responsible. Offensively, he is best player in the league and on a completely different planet than Toews. It's a total joke that anyone is trying to argue that captain intangibles is even being discussed as one of the best players in the league. Good defense does not make up for a 41 point difference in their highest career scoring totals. Toews has never broken 80 points. The only reason Crosby has been under that number is missing significant time due to injury.
On March 03 2013 15:26 GolemMadness wrote: Some people were saying that when he came back he'd never be the same, he wouldn't be a top player anymore, etc. FOOLS.
I guess this is where I make the admission i don't see him as an elite level player. Yes hes a great player and an amazing offensive threat and I won't take that from him, but I find his lack of a high level defensive game rather disturbing for a center that gets the hype he does. If I would to compare him to another center of similar age in Toews I'd take Toews over Crosby. Yes They are both amazing players in their own right, but I see Toews as a more complete center with the complete 2 way package and seems to be a better leader on his respective team on both ends of the ice.
Toews is amazing and I can see where you're coming from. However, I wouldn't say that Crosby is that bad defensively. He's still +9 where Toews is +10 (for how much the +- stat even matters, necessarily). Certainly he isn't so bad that you'd have to drop him out of elite level status. I mean, would you consider Stamkos an elite player?
I think you can debate that Crosby isn't the BEST player, but not elite seems to be stretching it a bit.
But how much do you see Crosby on the PK? +/- is a very skewed stat especially if you compare Toews vs Crosby. Towes is at a +10 with only 18 points vs Crosby at +9 with 34 points. To me that says Crosby is a defensive liability on the ice and while hes definitely a greatly gifted offensive player and extremely elite in that regard his defensive game is lacking with is kinda disappointing to me considering all the massive media hype and talk about being the best player in the game right now. I honestly believe it the Pens told him he needs to step up the defensive side of his game he could become a more complete 2-way player. What if Crosby was getting 10-20 less points a season but had 10-30 more blocked shots and was a key part of the PK? Crosby is an elite offensive player in a 2-way position. To me its kinda contradictory its like an offensive defenseman.
I disagree with the common idea that your top talent needs to kill penalties and block shots. Grinders can do that - blocking shots and killing penalties can be taught, elite offensive talent cannot be. Why waste your goal-scorers by putting them out in situations where they can't score unless you have no other option?
And given that Crosby is a beast when it comes to holding the puck in the offensive zone (possibly the best player in the league in this regard), how much does his lack of defensive 'prowess' really matter? Much of the 'modern NHL' emphasizes 'not losing' over winning. Not giving up goals over scoring goals. Makes sense, because it's easier. But when you have the best player on the planet on your team (yeah, that's an opinion right there), you should use him as such.
edit: As an aside, the blanket hate for Crosby has always bothered me. It's perception over reality. When he scored the gold-medal winning goal I thought "finally, people can stop hating Sidney Crosby." Nope. It's like the Nickelback effect except Crosby is actually good.
Here's my perspective as an outsider of the Pens fanbase. Crosby great offensive player yes. Best player on his team, most likely. Best player in the world? Hell fucking no. Hes probably the best OFFENSIVE center in the game of hockey. Best overall player not at all. He doesnt contribute to the defensive side of the game when playing a role that is key to good 2-way hockey. Which is especially important when he plays the key position for good 2-way hockey.
I see it as id rather have good all round players that may be slightly above or below average at everything then players that are absolute stand outs on one end of the ice but may as well not exist on the other end. There needs to be balance atleast in some aspect and for as much hype as Crosby has it doesnt make sense to me. Yes you need players that grind it out and the players that stand out on one end of the ice, but those stand outs should be your wingers not your centermen.
The blanket hate comes probably from alot of the favoritism he gets. Part of the problem is also the fact he doesnt have a good image about him. You dont hear glowing reviews about him or that hes a really nice guy/awesome teammate comments you hear alot of the opposite and that makes it easier to not like the guy. Its one of those if youre a media star you cant be a dick thing.
What are you talking about? I've never once heard anybody say that Crosby isn't a nice guy or a bad team mate.
On March 03 2013 15:26 GolemMadness wrote: Some people were saying that when he came back he'd never be the same, he wouldn't be a top player anymore, etc. FOOLS.
I guess this is where I make the admission i don't see him as an elite level player. Yes hes a great player and an amazing offensive threat and I won't take that from him, but I find his lack of a high level defensive game rather disturbing for a center that gets the hype he does. If I would to compare him to another center of similar age in Toews I'd take Toews over Crosby. Yes They are both amazing players in their own right, but I see Toews as a more complete center with the complete 2 way package and seems to be a better leader on his respective team on both ends of the ice.
Toews is amazing and I can see where you're coming from. However, I wouldn't say that Crosby is that bad defensively. He's still +9 where Toews is +10 (for how much the +- stat even matters, necessarily). Certainly he isn't so bad that you'd have to drop him out of elite level status. I mean, would you consider Stamkos an elite player?
I think you can debate that Crosby isn't the BEST player, but not elite seems to be stretching it a bit.
But how much do you see Crosby on the PK? +/- is a very skewed stat especially if you compare Toews vs Crosby. Towes is at a +10 with only 18 points vs Crosby at +9 with 34 points. To me that says Crosby is a defensive liability on the ice and while hes definitely a greatly gifted offensive player and extremely elite in that regard his defensive game is lacking with is kinda disappointing to me considering all the massive media hype and talk about being the best player in the game right now. I honestly believe it the Pens told him he needs to step up the defensive side of his game he could become a more complete 2-way player. What if Crosby was getting 10-20 less points a season but had 10-30 more blocked shots and was a key part of the PK? Crosby is an elite offensive player in a 2-way position. To me its kinda contradictory its like an offensive defenseman.
I disagree with the common idea that your top talent needs to kill penalties and block shots. Grinders can do that - blocking shots and killing penalties can be taught, elite offensive talent cannot be. Why waste your goal-scorers by putting them out in situations where they can't score unless you have no other option?
And given that Crosby is a beast when it comes to holding the puck in the offensive zone (possibly the best player in the league in this regard), how much does his lack of defensive 'prowess' really matter? Much of the 'modern NHL' emphasizes 'not losing' over winning. Not giving up goals over scoring goals. Makes sense, because it's easier. But when you have the best player on the planet on your team (yeah, that's an opinion right there), you should use him as such.
edit: As an aside, the blanket hate for Crosby has always bothered me. It's perception over reality. When he scored the gold-medal winning goal I thought "finally, people can stop hating Sidney Crosby." Nope. It's like the Nickelback effect except Crosby is actually good.
Here's my perspective as an outsider of the Pens fanbase. Crosby great offensive player yes. Best player on his team, most likely. Best player in the world? Hell fucking no. Hes probably the best OFFENSIVE center in the game of hockey. Best overall player not at all. He doesnt contribute to the defensive side of the game when playing a role that is key to good 2-way hockey. Which is especially important when he plays the key position for good 2-way hockey.
I see it as id rather have good all round players that may be slightly above or below average at everything then players that are absolute stand outs on one end of the ice but may as well not exist on the other end. There needs to be balance atleast in some aspect and for as much hype as Crosby has it doesnt make sense to me. Yes you need players that grind it out and the players that stand out on one end of the ice, but those stand outs should be your wingers not your centermen.
The blanket hate comes probably from alot of the favoritism he gets. Part of the problem is also the fact he doesnt have a good image about him. You dont hear glowing reviews about him or that hes a really nice guy/awesome teammate comments you hear alot of the opposite and that makes it easier to not like the guy. Its one of those if youre a media star you cant be a dick thing.
What are you talking about? I've never once heard anybody say that Crosby isn't a nice guy or a bad team mate.
I'm with Golem, do you have any interviews with players on his team or at the very least players on other teams that are out right saying Crosby is an asshole (insert any other name that would claim he isn't a nice guy)
EDIT: Wow, I just noticed I'm almost at the big 1000... Go me?
It's definitely not insane. dude's got 3 selkes and is only a hair off from Sid as far as offensive production. datsyuk is almost always top 3 in take aways and regularly near the top of faceoffs
it's actually really odd that he's almost underappreciated in a sense
A hair off in terms of offensive production is a pretty big understatement. Datsyuk hasn't done better than a point per game since 08-09. Crosby has gotten significantly more in every single season he's played in.
On March 05 2013 12:29 GolemMadness wrote: A hair off in terms of offensive production is a pretty big understatement. Datsyuk hasn't done better than a point per game since 08-09. Crosby has gotten significantly more in every single season he's played in.
There is a cost to offensive production when you are a dedicated defender.
On March 05 2013 11:35 QuanticHawk wrote: It's definitely not insane. dude's got 3 selkes and is only a hair off from Sid as far as offensive production. datsyuk is almost always top 3 in take aways and regularly near the top of faceoffs
it's actually really odd that he's almost underappreciated in a sense
Sadly with the depleted Red Wings roster this year, Datsyuk's numbers are probably going to suffer. At this point, he's basically playing with two fourth-liners (compare this to 2009 when he was playing with Zetterberg and Hossa).
Pavel is getting old and after a few leg injuries doesn't look as smooth as he once did, that being said. In his prime, he was a better player than Crosby, offense isn't everything.
On March 05 2013 12:29 GolemMadness wrote: A hair off in terms of offensive production is a pretty big understatement. Datsyuk hasn't done better than a point per game since 08-09. Crosby has gotten significantly more in every single season he's played in.
10 under, 3 over, 3 under in his last 3. that's definitely not far off. back when they were both healthy and playing full seasons a few years back (around the time of the det-pit finals), he was coming in in the high 90s to sid's low 100s.
as good as he's been, sid hasnt played anything close to a full season in a while so that makes it hard to really compare because dudes get hot and cold all the time over the course of 82. no doubt he'd be around a ppg or better but it's like those lemeiux-gretzky comaprisons about how mario'd be better if he was healthy—he wasn't. that's the point.
i gottta go track down flaccid's advanced zone starts and qual comp. im almost positive that datsyuk is their go to draw man for the important draws while filupula was given the easy stuff. sid is probalby way more in the offensive zone starts. thought that would be deceptive because it's not that he isn't a capable defender/faceoff guy, but they had Staal for years to eat up those minutes, and now they have Sutter
but from the stats, they had roughly the same offensive zone start (55ish%) but Dats played tougher competition (sid was about a .5 vs 1.3 or so for dats). though it should be noted that the Wings were studs as far as possession, 3rd in the league and no one under 54% zone starts, which is pretty nutty.
I think the biggest takeaway from looking at the stats is just how much Jordan Staal fucking owned last year. Dude started in the offesnive zone about 47% of the time, but faced the hardest competition on the team by far (he was commonly out vs the oppsoing 1st; 1.5qualcomp) while still being very positive as far as puck movement. This allowed Malkin, Kunitz and Neal (and to a lesser extent, Sid when he came back) to start 65% of the damn time on offense, against second rate competition (about a .3)
EPT
