On July 16 2013 02:37 sharkeyanti wrote:. Yashin, Malkin, Kovalev, Bure, Bryzgalov, Nabokov, Zherdev, and now Kovalchuk are some recent examples of guys who get that "enigmatic Russian" label, whether deserved or not. Mostly I think it's xenophobic old coots who are used to the USSR, and can only accept tight-lipped Canadian grinders.
are we talkin pavel or valeri or both?
the xenophobic old coots are hardly a united front list is pretty much bullshit. this is like debating who is over-rated. its a stereotype of a stereotype.
Well then lamprey, I will give some anecdotal evidence from my team of choice, the Flyers. Over the years the team has avoided Russian players. Bob Clarke, who was the GM for many years in two separate stints, had a notable distate for Russians. In my memory, PHI has had only a few players in the past decade who call Russia home.
Danil Markov was a typical Flyers dman, big and slow; he also was a deadline pickup IIRC.
Nikolay Zherdev had had an up and down career, and had played in the KHL at one point before coming to PHI. The coach never liked him, the GM never seemed to like him either. He had an incredible G/60 min rate, and actually looked pretty good to that most basic thing: the eye test. Laviolette for whatever reason never wanted him out there, and scratched him on many occasions.
Ilya Bryzgalov. Where to start? It didn't help matters that the national and local media can only ever focus on the goalies in PHI. Yes, he was overpaid, and he was really a slightly-above-average goalie at best. But the guy just would never get a break for being a player who spoke his mind and actually had substantive things to say. The Flyers as a team were not great last year, but had a fair degree of bad luck, of which Bryzgalov is hardly to blame. It's not his fault PHI offered a ridiculous contract.
Sergei Bobrovsky was traded for what was, at the time, a pretty good return for an undrafted sophomore who looked league-average.
I agree that there is no "united front" for hating Russians, but my anecdote is certainly not unique. Ask any Leafs or Bruins fan about how their teams approach Russians. As to being used to the USSR, I meant in that the country existed. Not literally the players from the 1970's who would be beaten if they spoke up.
new thread, updated with info about new season, player movement, etc. gonna update with twitter accounts, player movement tracker and all that later on
On July 16 2013 07:43 sharkeyanti wrote: Well then lamprey, I will give some anecdotal evidence from my team of choice, the Flyers. Over the years the team has avoided Russian players. Bob Clarke, who was the GM for many years in two separate stints, had a notable distate for Russians. In my memory, PHI has had only a few players in the past decade who call Russia home.
Danil Markov was a typical Flyers dman, big and slow; he also was a deadline pickup IIRC.
straw man.
let's pick the only guy who has been criminally convicted for his violent on ice actions in several countries. great example guy. every North American hockey player does this stuff right ?
and then let's go through his track record... and claim its a representational example of how all north americans hockey executives view the USSR/CIS/Russia and its players.
a guy who won nothing as a hockey exec. while being given HUGE resources to work with thanks to everyone's favourite Ayn Rand zealot.
why don't you pick a hockey guy who actually won something. like say... Scotty Bowman or Larry Robinson... let's examine how he dealt with the USSR/CIS/Russia and what Soviet Union players, executives and coaches said about him.
the only reason Clarke won anything as a hockey player was because of Bernie Parent... the second he injured his eye.. was the second the "flyer dynasty" ended.
This is the only time I will reply to that, I do not wish to start a protracted argument.
The Flyers in Clarke's tenure were one of the winningest franchises in the NHL. They have made a number of cup runs, and did so without generational talents. Snider's checkbook has helped for sure, but the Flyers have been a very successful franchise over the years in spite of very few top 5 draft picks. I picked PHI because I feel I have some authority on the subject. I don't profess to know much on the topic of how GMs over the years have viewed Russians. I can, however, give anecdotal evidence that there's at least one franchise in the league (and there are only 30 teams) who has shown clear tendencies to dislike Russian players.
Nowhere, and I mean nowhere, did I say that Clarke's record represents the view of every old coot in the league. If you are going to criticize my arguments, could you read more comprehensively? My anecdote should be seen as adding to a discussion, not prognosticating an agenda.
Also, I'm not sure why my post inspired such ire towards the Flyers franchise. I said nothing to draw the discussion that way. I have no incentive to respond to such name-calling and ballyhooing.
On July 16 2013 11:59 sharkeyanti wrote: This is the only time I will reply to that, I do not wish to start a protracted argument. The Flyers in Clarke's tenure were one of the winningest franchises in the NHL.
you can not respond because you know their is no proof to your points. you claimed some kind of "general bias" and then only name 1 corrupt guy as proof. i've provided 2 people as a counter to your single anecdote. there is no general bias.
the regular season does not equal the playoffs. Snider gave Clarke a tonne of resources and money to win the Stanley Cup. Not to pile up points in the regular season The Flyers and Canadiens rested several of their best players during the final 20 games of the year. He won zero cups during his decades of tenure as the final decision maker.
no name calling involved. Bobby Clarke is a convicted criminal. Notice what great buddies Clarke is with Alan Eagleson? Eagleson , universally rejected by 1970s hockey players, is a convicted felon who robbed these players of their pensions. Do some digging and you'll quickly find out why Bobby and "The eagle" get along just great. The RCMP investigated the links between Clarke and Eagleson.
Ed Snider paid Bobby Clarke in an alternate personal services contract as a player during the 1970s. This is how Ed Snider was able to keep the remaining players salaries down. He'd tell the players.. "the captain is only making $X so i have to pay you less than that".
No bally-hoo or name calling is required: just concrete facts about Bobby Clarke and the Philadelphia Flyer organization.
You think that video i showed of Clarke breaking the Czech player's cheek bone is an isolated incident, think again. That entire tour of Europe and the USSR Clarke broke bones, slashed tendons and knocked out teeth.
There is no exaggeration required these are known historical facts.
When you want to use a single hockey executive as "evidence" of some kind of "general statement" select someone other than Bobby Clarke.
On July 16 2013 11:59 sharkeyanti wrote: This is the only time I will reply to that, I do not wish to start a protracted argument. The Flyers in Clarke's tenure were one of the winningest franchises in the NHL.
Exiting yourself from further discussion of this topic is probably the best strategy because your over generalization was inflammatory at a minimum and at worst a troll.
Proving a general theory based on 1 guy is weak. Expect to get a disagreement when you attempt this.
Clarke is a bad choice for 3 reasons. 1) He has marginal credibility relative to many other "old coots", owners do not listen to him. 2) he won ZERO Stanley Cups despite a monster budget 3) he was anti USSR from the time he was 20 due to personal events.. read up on Carl Brewer's biography and the whole Alan Eagleson fiasco for further details.
No Canadian player in international play came any where close to the dirty play and poor sportsmanship of Bobby Clarke.
Select an "old coot" who actually won something. Scotty Bowman is more universally revered and consulted than any NHL executive in the past 40 years. When Bowman talks team owners listen.
or maybe Larry Robinson or maybe Roger "i dont give of fuck if he is dying of cancer" Nielson.
Ed Snider is the only one who listened to Clarke. And he has ZERO Cups to show for it despite having a top 4 payroll for 19 years. To borrow a direct quote from Snider's life hero Ayn Rand, "it is time to re examine your premises".
Clarke captained and led the dirtiest team in NHL history and GM-ed the same way.
Haven't been watching much TSN this summer and only now learned that Jay Onrait and Dan O'Toole have moved to Fox. Maybe now I can start to take Bobrovsky seriously.
EPT
