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On July 30 2021 15:59 Garbo1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 15:45 [Phantom] wrote:
I think I was misunderstood or explained myself incorrectly in my post from the previous page. I said Protons should Not be buffed as I think it's already strong vs Terran, and instead Zerg should be nerfed in ways that help Protists build variety.
For what is worth, I do think Dark deserved to win.
As For this:
"I think it's nonsense that Zerg is too versatile. Zerg have a few approved builds, Terran even fewer, whereas Protoss have so many viable combinations and openers that you have to constantly scout to make sure you're not being mind gamed."
I'm not sure. Outside of DTs you're only scouting the way you should scout any race. In ZvP that is: is the Protoss going adepts, disruptors or VR?
Zerg has baneling bust, ravager bust, 12 pool, queen walks, roach hydra lurker, muta, ling hydra, infestor Roach Hydra, Nydus all in. Zerg doesn't have as many units as other races, but they are very versatile in their gameplay. Protoss builds are very restrictive and the gameplay is too. You've listed a bunch of Zerg builds, most of which are mid game pushes. As far as early game pushes, is protoss going adept, disruptor, voidray? What about Oracle, phoenix, blink stalker, DT, Cannon rush? Each one of these requires a different counter and can needs to be countered instinctively with just the right combination of units, and each one can be achieved in early game and needs to be scouted to be able to counter. Zerg with larva can build all at once to counter quickly enough, Terran are just abused if they get it wrong.
Yeah, seriously, I mean Trap was simply playing too standard, with 2 Oracles into Adepts in to DTs into Ground army push, he has played that same way in PvZ for almost 3 months or something. There are loads of other builds that Zest has shown against Reynor and Serral, but Trap didnt choose to do anything of those, because they are harder to transition out of. Hell, I remember Trap took a game from Dark in GSL Final 2 years ago with Cannon Rush, but he chose to not do that this time around.
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On July 30 2021 13:49 parksonsc wrote:
What a timing to shutdown TL during the Code S finals, tbh I couldn't care less about the ongoing drama but why couldn't we (just SC2 fans) have a place to discuss during the finals? Just make a topic or a banner for that drama is good enough.
I strongly disagree here.
If you want the message to mean anything, it has to be on a day people will actually notice it.
While it sucks to have TL down for such a big event, I think it was the best way to do the blackout.
EDIT: It's also the day of a bigger organised Activision Blizzard walkout. So it would not make much sense to do it a different day anyhow.
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What a surprise, a one sided PvZ finals... at least Trap was barely able to win the map where he held the hatchery tech queen walk without losing a single probe... this matchup is as fucked as ever
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 30 2021 17:45 SharkStarcraft wrote:
What a surprise, a one sided PvZ finals... at least Trap was barely able to win the map where he held the hatchery tech queen walk without losing a single probe... this matchup is as fucked as ever
The irony is he would have died to it if Dark had better information where to attack. Trap was pixels from losing.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
Aw man, maybe next time for Trap 
Dark definitely the more clutch man on the day though, can’t really argue with that.
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On July 30 2021 09:56 Vindicare605 wrote:
Super Tournaments are routinely dominated by them and Protoss wins plenty just about everywhere else. The problem is Trap. The dude just IS NOT cut out to be a consistent champion.
That's lovely. Trap is the only Protoss to have won a Premier tournament that doesn't have 'NA' on it since Classic went to the military. If he's not 'cut out to be a consistent champion' then Protoss is in deep trouble, because Trap is carrying Protoss harder than Maru ever had to carry Terran.
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France12906 Posts
On July 30 2021 22:23 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 09:56 Vindicare605 wrote:
Super Tournaments are routinely dominated by them and Protoss wins plenty just about everywhere else. The problem is Trap. The dude just IS NOT cut out to be a consistent champion. That's lovely. Trap is the only Protoss to have won a Premier tournament that doesn't have 'NA' on it since Classic went to the military. If he's not 'cut out to be a consistent champion' then Protoss is in deep trouble, because Trap is carrying Protoss harder than Maru ever had to carry Terran.
This is objectively false though?
Protoss won the most in 2021 prize money ( Winnings/2021), and Trap is not first protoss so far (close 2nd though), at 58k$. 58/376 is approximately 15.4% of protoss earnings won by Trap.
For a comparison, Maru in 2018 won 371k$ out of 939k$ terran earnings that year. This is an absurdly high 371/939=~40% of the total earnings of his race. Serral won 471k$/1.522m$ in total for zerg, which is approximately 31%. (Winnings/2018)
I highly doubt someone carried harder / won a bigger percentage of prize money for his race than Maru 2018, but you are free to dig the winnings section on liquipedia, it is really well done and doing this kind of research is therefore easy.
edit: in 2020 Zest is also first. He is technically carrying protoss harder than Trap, although not by much!
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On July 30 2021 22:23 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 09:56 Vindicare605 wrote:
Super Tournaments are routinely dominated by them and Protoss wins plenty just about everywhere else. The problem is Trap. The dude just IS NOT cut out to be a consistent champion. That's lovely. Trap is the only Protoss to have won a Premier tournament that doesn't have 'NA' on it since Classic went to the military. If he's not 'cut out to be a consistent champion' then Protoss is in deep trouble, because Trap is carrying Protoss harder than Maru ever had to carry Terran.
Stats and Zest did their share as well, with getting to WCS/IEM Final and all that. The narrative that Protoss is a weak race and Trap carry the whole thing is weak AFAIK. Like him being the "only Protoss" won a Premiere tournament recently is not true as the last 3 ST final has been PvP, either Trap or another Toss would have won it. So that narrow down to the recent tournaments Last Chance, TSL and NeXT, which are very nice win, but than Trap follow it up with a very dissapointing result in IEM and DH Global. Parting and Zest getting to Ro.4 is IEM was also very impressive, and I thought Zest could have gotten far in the recent DH had he not being in the Group of Death with Maru and Reynor.
So yeah, in short, Protoss is not falling off anywhere in premiere tournament, they are still around in the pro-scene and make enough noise here and there. Losing Stats and Zest is a blow, but hopefully herO and Classic coming back is able to cover that up.
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On July 30 2021 22:53 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 22:23 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On July 30 2021 09:56 Vindicare605 wrote:
Super Tournaments are routinely dominated by them and Protoss wins plenty just about everywhere else. The problem is Trap. The dude just IS NOT cut out to be a consistent champion. That's lovely. Trap is the only Protoss to have won a Premier tournament that doesn't have 'NA' on it since Classic went to the military. If he's not 'cut out to be a consistent champion' then Protoss is in deep trouble, because Trap is carrying Protoss harder than Maru ever had to carry Terran. This is objectively false though?
Oh, is it? What Premier tournament without 'NA' on it was this, and which Protoss won it?
On July 30 2021 22:53 Poopi wrote:Protoss won the most in 2021 prize money ( Winnings/2021), and Trap is not first protoss so far (close 2nd though), at 58k$. 58/376 is approximately 15.4% of protoss earnings won by Trap. For a comparison, Maru in 2018 won 371k$ out of 939k$ terran earnings that year. This is an absurdly high 371/939=~40% of the total earnings of his race. Serral won 471k$/1.522m$ in total for zerg, which is approximately 31%. (https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Winnings/2018)
Oh, by "This is objectively false", you meant you were going to make a statement that was objectively false and pretend I made it. No thanks.
Couple additional problems:
1: Since when do we gauge performance on earnings? I've not seen anyone claim Reynor is the best player by virtue of earning 150% as much as the second best player.
2: You can clearly see that the Premiers Maru won in 2018 were worth a lot more money than the ones Trap wins in 2020-2021. First place in WESG alone was worth 200,000$, which is more than half what the entire Protoss race has won in the entirety of 2021. No shit Maru's share of prize money is "absurdly high". Prize money distribution is not affected by player performance but by tournament organisers. This, incidentally, is why we don't use earnings to gauge performance.
3: Once you've started using a better metric, please remember to include 2020, since I clearly said "since Classic went to the military".
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France12906 Posts
On July 30 2021 23:34 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 22:53 Poopi wrote:On July 30 2021 22:23 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On July 30 2021 09:56 Vindicare605 wrote:
Super Tournaments are routinely dominated by them and Protoss wins plenty just about everywhere else. The problem is Trap. The dude just IS NOT cut out to be a consistent champion. That's lovely. Trap is the only Protoss to have won a Premier tournament that doesn't have 'NA' on it since Classic went to the military. If he's not 'cut out to be a consistent champion' then Protoss is in deep trouble, because Trap is carrying Protoss harder than Maru ever had to carry Terran. This is objectively false though? Oh, is it? What Premier tournament without 'NA' on it was this, and which Protoss won it? Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 22:53 Poopi wrote:Protoss won the most in 2021 prize money ( Winnings/2021), and Trap is not first protoss so far (close 2nd though), at 58k$. 58/376 is approximately 15.4% of protoss earnings won by Trap. For a comparison, Maru in 2018 won 371k$ out of 939k$ terran earnings that year. This is an absurdly high 371/939=~40% of the total earnings of his race. Serral won 471k$/1.522m$ in total for zerg, which is approximately 31%. (https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Winnings/2018) Oh, by "This is objectively false", you meant you were going to make a statement that was objectively false and pretend I made it. No thanks. Couple additional problems: 1: Since when do we gauge performance on earnings? I've not seen anyone claim Reynor is the best player by virtue of earning 150% as much as the second best player. 2: You can clearly see that the Premiers Maru won in 2018 were worth a lot more money than the ones Trap wins in 2020-2021. First place in WESG alone was worth 200,000$, which is more than half what the entire Protoss race has won in the entirety of 2021. No shit Maru's share of prize money is "absurdly high". Prize money distribution is not affected by player performance but by tournament organisers. This, incidentally, is why we don't use earnings to gauge performance. 3: Once you've started using a better metric, please remember to include 2020, since I clearly said "since Classic went to the military".
Well earnings is closely correlated to prestige, except in some exceptions.
i) WESG has decent prestige but enormous prize money
ii) IEM and BlizzCon have the same / maybe a bit more (depending on who you ask) prestige as GSL Code S, but their prize money is quite a lot higher.
Using earnings as a metric is actually very good: players care about their earnings, and a tournament having good enough prize money helps make it prestigious. If suddenly Code S were to have its prize money divided by 10, it would not mean as much and players would not care as much winning it or losing early in it. That's also why if you do not care about earnings, but rather only at tournaments won, you can look at ESL Cups, I recall Zest, ShoWTimE and probably other protosses winning them.
Yes Maru won Code S (all of them) and WESG in 2018, so what? That's precisely (partly) why he carried his race far more than Trap -> without him terrans would not have won nearly as much, especially considering that he did not win these tournaments beating another terran in the finals: if he lost in the finals, the money would not have gone to another terran. Contrary to many Trap wins recently, notably the Super Tournaments he won in PvP finals, as noted by tigera6.
About your third point, what better metric then? Please do it, I would be very surprised if you found one in which Trap is carrying protoss more than Maru carried terran in similar time period (you are talking about Classic departure to now, I am talking about Maru whole 2018 and maybe even early 2019, should be a similar amount of time).
Oh, finally:
Oh, is it? What Premier tournament without 'NA' on it was this, and which Protoss won it?
I am talking about the Trap carrying protoss harder than Maru carried terran. Which was implicit but kinda obvious since I only spoke about that part afterwards. But it's a great reminder that only counting "winning the tournament" to gauge a race performance is bad. For example, Zest and PartinG performed very well at IEM, but did not win the tournament: having 2 players in the semi-finals of the world championship is still very good.
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Bisutopia19300 Posts
On July 30 2021 17:16 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 13:49 parksonsc wrote:
What a timing to shutdown TL during the Code S finals, tbh I couldn't care less about the ongoing drama but why couldn't we (just SC2 fans) have a place to discuss during the finals? Just make a topic or a banner for that drama is good enough. I strongly disagree here. If you want the message to mean anything, it has to be on a day people will actually notice it. While it sucks to have TL down for such a big event, I think it was the best way to do the blackout. EDIT: It's also the day of a bigger organised Activision Blizzard walkout. So it would not make much sense to do it a different day anyhow.
Tastosis were already removed from live English casts of ASL in SC1. The last thing I'd want is for the Afreeca Team to see a massive drop in English viewers and use that as an excuse to cut their casting time down. Sure the blackout proved a big point, but I hate that it potentially severely punished the GSL stream, Afreeca Crew, and the players who have nothing to do with Blizzard Culture.
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On July 31 2021 00:11 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 17:16 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:On July 30 2021 13:49 parksonsc wrote:
What a timing to shutdown TL during the Code S finals, tbh I couldn't care less about the ongoing drama but why couldn't we (just SC2 fans) have a place to discuss during the finals? Just make a topic or a banner for that drama is good enough. I strongly disagree here. If you want the message to mean anything, it has to be on a day people will actually notice it. While it sucks to have TL down for such a big event, I think it was the best way to do the blackout. EDIT: It's also the day of a bigger organised Activision Blizzard walkout. So it would not make much sense to do it a different day anyhow. Tastosis were already removed from live English casts of ASL in SC1. The last thing I'd want is for the Afreeca Team to see a massive drop in English viewers and use that as an excuse to cut their casting time down. Sure the blackout proved a big point, but I hate that it potentially severely punished the GSL stream, Afreeca Crew, and the players who have nothing to do with Blizzard Culture.
I agree for the most part. I know I still do, and probably a lot of people, check TL for streams/events. So I'm fairly certain viewership was affected for the GSL Finals (which sucks because imo they need all the support they can get) and I even saw in the EU DH chat people saying they didnt even know it was going on because of no TL.
I don't think Afreeca would get rid of the English broadcast of GSL because unlike BW the SC2 community is mostly foreigners so the English broadcast is much more important to GSL than ASL.
Ultimately it's up to TL though obviously so it is what it is.
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France12906 Posts
On July 31 2021 00:20 Moonerz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2021 00:11 BisuDagger wrote:On July 30 2021 17:16 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:On July 30 2021 13:49 parksonsc wrote:
What a timing to shutdown TL during the Code S finals, tbh I couldn't care less about the ongoing drama but why couldn't we (just SC2 fans) have a place to discuss during the finals? Just make a topic or a banner for that drama is good enough. I strongly disagree here. If you want the message to mean anything, it has to be on a day people will actually notice it. While it sucks to have TL down for such a big event, I think it was the best way to do the blackout. EDIT: It's also the day of a bigger organised Activision Blizzard walkout. So it would not make much sense to do it a different day anyhow. Tastosis were already removed from live English casts of ASL in SC1. The last thing I'd want is for the Afreeca Team to see a massive drop in English viewers and use that as an excuse to cut their casting time down. Sure the blackout proved a big point, but I hate that it potentially severely punished the GSL stream, Afreeca Crew, and the players who have nothing to do with Blizzard Culture. I agree for the most part. I know I still do, and probably a lot of people, check TL for streams/events. So I'm fairly certain viewership was affected for the GSL Finals (which sucks because imo they need all the support they can get) and I even saw in the EU DH chat people saying they didnt even know it was going on because of no TL. I don't think Afreeca would get rid of the English broadcast of GSL because unlike BW the SC2 community is mostly foreigners so the English broadcast is much more important to GSL than ASL. Ultimately it's up to TL though obviously so it is what it is.
I was waiting for the GSL finals so I did not miss it because of the blackout, but I kinda forgot about DH EU, especially since the previous day when I was checking it at work it was not really on because of DH Fall TW running late, thus I did not know the schedule. I only realized it was on because I saw Drogo tweeting about his upcoming match. Thankfully liquipedia was still up so you could check the tournaments you were interested in if you thought about them, or by checking twitch in the sc2 section directly. However I am so used to browsing tl.net to see what streams are on that I rarely use twitch directly...
Hopefully GSL viewership did not suffer too much from it.
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GG WP Dark.
Tbh I was a bit surprised by the amount of mistakes Trap did during this finals and also that he did not try to shake up things with less standard play.
Oh well, better player (on that day) won.
Saying that, I still do not like the state of PvZ. Even if not unbalanced the reliance on heavy air play from P and Queen, viper, lurker camp combo is just sad to watch. I miss the hydra ling bane vs immo zealot archon meta.
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On July 30 2021 13:49 parksonsc wrote:
What a timing to shutdown TL during the Code S finals, tbh I couldn't care less about the ongoing drama but why couldn't we (just SC2 fans) have a place to discuss during the finals? Just make a topic or a banner for that drama is good enough.
You could have gone on reddit. Sounds like you're better off there anyway...
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On July 30 2021 23:44 Poopi wrote:
Using earnings as a metric is actually very good:
Well, in that case, Maru winning his GSLs in 2018 is not much of an achievement, after all GSL is a tournament with almost no foreigners, and in 2018 foreigners outperformed Koreans (using earnings, which is a very good metric). What prestige is there in winning such weak tournaments?
On July 30 2021 23:44 Poopi wrote:Yes Maru won Code S (all of them) and WESG in 2018, so what? That's precisely (partly) why he carried his race far more than Trap -> without him terrans would not have won nearly as much,
How does that indicate Maru carried his race more than Trap? Trap's the only Protoss to have won a premier outside NA since 2019. Without him, Protoss would have won nothing in two years. Almost literally, the last one was Stats' win in the first weekend of August 2019.
On July 30 2021 23:44 Poopi wrote:especially considering that he did not win these tournaments beating another terran in the finals: if he lost in the finals, the money would not have gone to another terran.
See, this is the kind of statement that actually is "objectively false".
On July 30 2021 23:44 Poopi wrote:About your third point, what better metric then? Please do it, I would be very surprised if you found one in which Trap is carrying protoss more than Maru carried terran in similar time period (you are talking about Classic departure to now, I am talking about Maru whole 2018 and maybe even early 2019, should be a similar amount of time).
Certainly. It's the one I used when I brought up the subject in the first place, unsurprisingly enough. Trap is the only Protoss to have won a premier tournament since Trap in August 2019. That's 24 months, and counting since there's still been no non-Trap Protoss champion. Maru was the only Terran to win a premier tournament between Innovation's GSL vs. the World in August 2017 and his WESG in March 2019, which is a bit less than 20 months. Do you disagree that 24 months+ is longer than 20 months?
On July 30 2021 23:44 Poopi wrote:Oh, finally: Show nested quote +Oh, is it? What Premier tournament without 'NA' on it was this, and which Protoss won it? I am talking about the Trap carrying protoss harder than Maru carried terran.
That is not an objectively falsifiable statement though. Which is why you had to resort such a weird ass metric as counting NA as proof of Protoss performance. Funny how important NA becomes when it comes to overselling Protoss performance. "But Protoss are DOMINATING NA GM Ladder!" "But Neeb and Astrea are making money in NA tournaments!" Seriously.
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Maru in 2018 vs Trap currently in terms of carrying their race is really not even worthy of discussion. Maru in 2018 was the most a player has ever carried their race in SC2 and will never be surpassed. Maru was literally the last Terran or tied for last Terran in every single event he played in that year. Trap has already failed to be the last Toss standing several times this year.
He was the only Terran in many premier ro8s (GSL S1, Blizzcon 2019 and WESG all spring to mind). Trap has only been the single toss in a ro8 once. This is less defined but he was also the only Terran winning high level TvZ before the post Blizzcon patch and did ridiculous in that matchup that year compared to any other T player. Traps matchup winrates aren't that much different than other top Protoss.
Trap is definitely carrying Toss in some ways right now but it's really not comparable to what Maru did in 2018. Without Maru Terran in 2018 would have had the worst year a race has ever had in the history of SC2. Toss would take a noticable performance hit without Trap but they still would have won super tournaments and Zest would have still had his IEM run.
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On July 31 2021 02:48 JJH777 wrote:
Trap is definitely carrying Toss in some ways right now but it's really not comparable to what Maru did in 2018. Without Maru Terran in 2018 would have had the worst year a race has ever had in the history of SC2. Toss would take a noticable performance hit without Trap but they still would have won super tournaments and Zest would have still had his IEM run.
Without Trap: zero wins in actual premiers. I guess you're counting PvP mirrors in finals as guaranteed wins for Protoss even though without Trap they might not have been mirrors? If you apply that logic to 2018, Terran would have still won a Code S (since TY also made the finals).
Look, Maru dominating GSL at a time when Zerg was basically unstoppable was and is impressive and he was definitely carrying. But Trap's been doing the same (or, at any rate, a similar) thing for longer—Innovation won two tournaments in 2019, more than Maru, and 2017 was a great year for Terran even without Maru doing much, with TY, Innovation, and Gumiho all winning big tournaments. The most recent "good" year for Protoss was when exactly? One win each for Classic and Stats in tier two tournaments for 2019? 2018 same story? 2017 was the last actual good showing.
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Bisutopia19300 Posts
On July 31 2021 03:09 QOGQOG wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2021 02:48 JJH777 wrote:
Trap is definitely carrying Toss in some ways right now but it's really not comparable to what Maru did in 2018. Without Maru Terran in 2018 would have had the worst year a race has ever had in the history of SC2. Toss would take a noticable performance hit without Trap but they still would have won super tournaments and Zest would have still had his IEM run. Without Trap: zero wins in actual premiers. I guess you're counting PvP mirrors in finals as guaranteed wins for Protoss even though without Trap they might not have been mirrors? If you apply that logic to 2018, Terran would have still won a Code S (since TY also made the finals). Look, Maru dominating GSL at a time when Zerg was basically unstoppable was and is impressive and he was definitely carrying. But Trap's been doing the same (or, at any rate, a similar) thing for longer—Innovation won two tournaments in 2019, more than Maru, and 2017 was a great year for Terran even without Maru doing much, with TY, Innovation, and Gumiho all winning big tournaments. The most recent "good" year for Protoss was when exactly? One win each for Classic and Stats in tier two tournaments for 2019? 2018 same story? 2017 was the last actual good showing.
Trap has definitely been carrying Protoss, but I don't think it would be solely on him if Classic didn't have to serve in the military. He's definitely the better version of Trap when it comes to finals performances. When he comes back, if both play well, then we could be looking at a few PvP GSL finals in 2022.
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On July 31 2021 02:48 JJH777 wrote:
Maru in 2018 vs Trap currently in terms of carrying their race is really not even worthy of discussion. Maru in 2018 was the most a player has ever carried their race in SC2 and will never be surpassed. Maru was literally the last Terran or tied for last Terran in every single event he played in that year. Trap has already failed to be the last Toss standing several times this year.
That's certainly a valid way of looking at it. I still say Trap's carrying Protoss harder because as a fan who wants to see Protoss win, I've had to depend on him for longer than Terrans had to depend on Maru, but I understand that not everyone prioritises the same elements here. I'm certainly not the one who went and claimed this to be objective.
Regardless, the original point I was making to Vindicare remains: Trap is obviously not the problem with Protoss' performance (Assuming there is a problem at all. I think Protoss has been doing quite well recently. The GSL issue is a funny quirk, but there's really no need to look at imbalance to explain losing to Dark).
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EPT
