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On July 31 2021 03:09 QOGQOG wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2021 02:48 JJH777 wrote:
Trap is definitely carrying Toss in some ways right now but it's really not comparable to what Maru did in 2018. Without Maru Terran in 2018 would have had the worst year a race has ever had in the history of SC2. Toss would take a noticable performance hit without Trap but they still would have won super tournaments and Zest would have still had his IEM run. Without Trap: zero wins in actual premiers. I guess you're counting PvP mirrors in finals as guaranteed wins for Protoss even though without Trap they might not have been mirrors? If you apply that logic to 2018, Terran would have still won a Code S (since TY also made the finals). Look, Maru dominating GSL at a time when Zerg was basically unstoppable was and is impressive and he was definitely carrying. But Trap's been doing the same (or, at any rate, a similar) thing for longer—Innovation won two tournaments in 2019, more than Maru, and 2017 was a great year for Terran even without Maru doing much, with TY, Innovation, and Gumiho all winning big tournaments. The most recent "good" year for Protoss was when exactly? One win each for Classic and Stats in tier two tournaments for 2019? 2018 same story? 2017 was the last actual good showing.
The difference for me is that Toss is doing just fine in overall tournament representation this year and that doesn't change much without Trap. Only the victories change. Losing Maru in 2018 changes both Terran victories and their overall representation dramatically. Besides TY in 2 GSLs Maru was the only Terran who made ro4s that year. Several major tournaments would not have had a T player in the playoff stages. Parting, Zoun, Zest and Stats have all made good runs recently.
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Mexico2170 Posts
On July 30 2021 16:22 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 15:59 Garbo1 wrote:On July 30 2021 15:45 [Phantom] wrote:
I think I was misunderstood or explained myself incorrectly in my post from the previous page. I said Protons should Not be buffed as I think it's already strong vs Terran, and instead Zerg should be nerfed in ways that help Protists build variety.
For what is worth, I do think Dark deserved to win.
As For this:
"I think it's nonsense that Zerg is too versatile. Zerg have a few approved builds, Terran even fewer, whereas Protoss have so many viable combinations and openers that you have to constantly scout to make sure you're not being mind gamed."
I'm not sure. Outside of DTs you're only scouting the way you should scout any race. In ZvP that is: is the Protoss going adepts, disruptors or VR?
Zerg has baneling bust, ravager bust, 12 pool, queen walks, roach hydra lurker, muta, ling hydra, infestor Roach Hydra, Nydus all in. Zerg doesn't have as many units as other races, but they are very versatile in their gameplay. Protoss builds are very restrictive and the gameplay is too. You've listed a bunch of Zerg builds, most of which are mid game pushes. As far as early game pushes, is protoss going adept, disruptor, voidray? What about Oracle, phoenix, blink stalker, DT, Cannon rush? Each one of these requires a different counter and can needs to be countered instinctively with just the right combination of units, and each one can be achieved in early game and needs to be scouted to be able to counter. Zerg with larva can build all at once to counter quickly enough, Terran are just abused if they get it wrong. Yeah, seriously, I mean Trap was simply playing too standard, with 2 Oracles into Adepts in to DTs into Ground army push, he has played that same way in PvZ for almost 3 months or something. There are loads of other builds that Zest has shown against Reynor and Serral, but Trap didnt choose to do anything of those, because they are harder to transition out of. Hell, I remember Trap took a game from Dark in GSL Final 2 years ago with Cannon Rush, but he chose to not do that this time around.
To address this and the previous post, making oracles when going Stargate is as much as a build as going observer when going robo, as in not at all. If you're going Stargate you're going to need detection, so you're a going to get at least one Oracle. It can harass, yes, but all air can. That's the role of Stargate in the early/mid in PvZ, if you notice all those units give Protoss some form or map control and harass. The only exception are proxy oracle builds but they are not really used in PvZ.
Blink all ins haven't worked in a long time. Phoenix openings have been out of meta and in all the GSL matches I've seen in the last year where they were used the Protoss lost (which were like 3 games total, but feel free to provide examples).
Trap didnt choose to do anything of those, because they are harder to transition out of.
But that's a big part of the problem, isn't it? One of the reasons Stargate Openings are used is because it's the only tech tree that gives you some form of map control, and it's the only tech tree that can deal cost efficiently with lurkers, so if you're going to need them in the late game might as well start now.
If you start with twilight/robo, you will have a good opportunity to push after the time the Zerg set up his third and before/during the time he is making his fourth. After that you just hope disruptors can buy you enough time to transition to air. And then comes the vipers. You will notice this in all PvZ. It's basically scripted honestly.
Again, I think Dark deserved to win. It's just that I wish protoss had more options and I feel the queens being so strong, and then the lurkers and vipers later on, basically force protoss into a very specific path, which makes them bad in bo7.
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The moment Tastosis said the phase "Trap just got creamed" after he lost one of the earlier games, I knew it over
The chat would spam that phrase unceasingly for the rest of the match lol
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Trap once again shown he is so overrated
He will never win a Code S
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On July 31 2021 07:37 ShowTheLights wrote:
Trap once again shown he is so overrated
He will never win a Code S
You mean protoss will never win a Code S?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 31 2021 03:42 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2021 03:09 QOGQOG wrote:On July 31 2021 02:48 JJH777 wrote:
Trap is definitely carrying Toss in some ways right now but it's really not comparable to what Maru did in 2018. Without Maru Terran in 2018 would have had the worst year a race has ever had in the history of SC2. Toss would take a noticable performance hit without Trap but they still would have won super tournaments and Zest would have still had his IEM run. Without Trap: zero wins in actual premiers. I guess you're counting PvP mirrors in finals as guaranteed wins for Protoss even though without Trap they might not have been mirrors? If you apply that logic to 2018, Terran would have still won a Code S (since TY also made the finals). Look, Maru dominating GSL at a time when Zerg was basically unstoppable was and is impressive and he was definitely carrying. But Trap's been doing the same (or, at any rate, a similar) thing for longer—Innovation won two tournaments in 2019, more than Maru, and 2017 was a great year for Terran even without Maru doing much, with TY, Innovation, and Gumiho all winning big tournaments. The most recent "good" year for Protoss was when exactly? One win each for Classic and Stats in tier two tournaments for 2019? 2018 same story? 2017 was the last actual good showing. The difference for me is that Toss is doing just fine in overall tournament representation this year and that doesn't change much without Trap. Only the victories change. Losing Maru in 2018 changes both Terran victories and their overall representation dramatically. Besides TY in 2 GSLs Maru was the only Terran who made ro4s that year. Several major tournaments would not have had a T player in the playoff stages. Parting, Zoun, Zest and Stats have all made good runs recently.
Exactly. Imagine being a Terran fan after the TY departure...
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On July 30 2021 22:23 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 09:56 Vindicare605 wrote:
Super Tournaments are routinely dominated by them and Protoss wins plenty just about everywhere else. The problem is Trap. The dude just IS NOT cut out to be a consistent champion. That's lovely. Trap is the only Protoss to have won a Premier tournament that doesn't have 'NA' on it since Classic went to the military. If he's not 'cut out to be a consistent champion' then Protoss is in deep trouble, because Trap is carrying Protoss harder than Maru ever had to carry Terran.
In PvP finals coming from brackets filled with Protoss, if it wasn't Trap it would be Stats, Zest or Zoun. You should not even mention this choke artist in the same sentence as 2018 Maru.
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On July 31 2021 01:16 egrimm wrote:
GG WP Dark.
Tbh I was a bit surprised by the amount of mistakes Trap did during this finals and also that he did not try to shake up things with less standard play.
Oh well, better player (on that day) won.
Saying that, I still do not like the state of PvZ. Even if not unbalanced the reliance on heavy air play from P and Queen, viper, lurker camp combo is just sad to watch. I miss the hydra ling bane vs immo zealot archon meta.
Wait, wasn't the Hydra Ling Bane era where Zerg was completely unstoppable vs Protoss??
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Can't help but feel that the people saying the only relevant Protoss for years is actually bad would be crying GOAT and ZERGED for a player with identical results who played Terran.
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Bisutopia19288 Posts
On July 31 2021 09:52 QOGQOG wrote:
Can't help but feel that the people saying the only relevant Protoss for years is actually bad would be crying GOAT and ZERGED for a player with identical results who played Terran.
Yeah. People are hating way to hard on Trap. He is losing to the best Korean Zergs and Terrans. His choke factor against players below his tier level is almost non-existent. If Trap won the GSL today he’d be in the conversation for top 3 Protoss of all time, that’s how close he is at the moment.
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On July 31 2021 08:28 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 22:23 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On July 30 2021 09:56 Vindicare605 wrote:
Super Tournaments are routinely dominated by them and Protoss wins plenty just about everywhere else. The problem is Trap. The dude just IS NOT cut out to be a consistent champion. That's lovely. Trap is the only Protoss to have won a Premier tournament that doesn't have 'NA' on it since Classic went to the military. If he's not 'cut out to be a consistent champion' then Protoss is in deep trouble, because Trap is carrying Protoss harder than Maru ever had to carry Terran. In PvP finals coming from brackets filled with Protoss, if it wasn't Trap it would be Stats, Zest or Zoun. You should not even mention this choke artist in the same sentence as 2018 Maru.
You can imagine Stats, Zest and Zoun winning as much as you like. In the real world, they haven't.
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On July 31 2021 00:11 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 17:16 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:On July 30 2021 13:49 parksonsc wrote:
What a timing to shutdown TL during the Code S finals, tbh I couldn't care less about the ongoing drama but why couldn't we (just SC2 fans) have a place to discuss during the finals? Just make a topic or a banner for that drama is good enough. I strongly disagree here. If you want the message to mean anything, it has to be on a day people will actually notice it. While it sucks to have TL down for such a big event, I think it was the best way to do the blackout. EDIT: It's also the day of a bigger organised Activision Blizzard walkout. So it would not make much sense to do it a different day anyhow. Tastosis were already removed from live English casts of ASL in SC1. The last thing I'd want is for the Afreeca Team to see a massive drop in English viewers and use that as an excuse to cut their casting time down. Sure the blackout proved a big point, but I hate that it potentially severely punished the GSL stream, Afreeca Crew, and the players who have nothing to do with Blizzard Culture.
To make things worse, Blizzard doesn't even give a fuck about their game, let alone about a forum with a couple dozen people posting. Can't imagine this blackout is ''making a point'' or helping when its on a forum about a game in which they don't bother with swapping in maps that were already made for them and uploaded on their servers. Its a ''fuck you'' to the posters, not to Blizzard.
On July 31 2021 10:13 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2021 08:28 Morbidius wrote:On July 30 2021 22:23 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On July 30 2021 09:56 Vindicare605 wrote:
Super Tournaments are routinely dominated by them and Protoss wins plenty just about everywhere else. The problem is Trap. The dude just IS NOT cut out to be a consistent champion. That's lovely. Trap is the only Protoss to have won a Premier tournament that doesn't have 'NA' on it since Classic went to the military. If he's not 'cut out to be a consistent champion' then Protoss is in deep trouble, because Trap is carrying Protoss harder than Maru ever had to carry Terran. In PvP finals coming from brackets filled with Protoss, if it wasn't Trap it would be Stats, Zest or Zoun. You should not even mention this choke artist in the same sentence as 2018 Maru. You can imagine Stats, Zest and Zoun winning as much as you like. In the real world, they haven't.
Its not about them winning, its about Trap ''carrying the race''. Its bullshit to say he is carrying the race on his back and that Protoss would not win without him when every single of his wins in Korea were PvP finals.
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On July 30 2021 08:06 [Phantom] wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 07:05 Cricketer12 wrote:
How the hell did everyone miss the LR for this? TL was shutdown for a day in support of actiBlizz staff. I must keep saying this: Zerg is just too versatile. M They have too many strategies and you need to account for alm of them limiting Protons builda. On top of that Nydia is completely dumb. "oh they saw the nydus, I'll guess is just make five more". I'm not even convinced Trap could have stopped that push even if dark just had the Nydus at the front. There's also that other game where trap was about to win, and then suddenly two vipers come out of nowhere kill 3 colossus AND still have energy for blinding cloud. Or how Queens are and make everything else immortal. Protoss won't win a major tournament as long as they have two viable builds and Zerg is still so versatile. Want to know the reason why Protoss still do the terrible adept build? It's not because the pros think it's good. It's because if they do the same strategy all games they will lose even harder, so they need to mix it up. And if for some reason you don't scout the adepts, it can still work Ok compared to most other Protoss builds. It at least gets some drone kills. Still, that doesn't make it good, but necessary. This is a result of years of nerfing different Protoss early agression strategies. (Some deservingly, some not). Basically: Protists needs some buffs to help build variety. Or Zerg needs some nerfs to help Protoss have some build variety. Because Protoss is fairly strong against Terran in the Late game, Zerg should be nerfed. I think at least 1 or 2 of these would help a lot: [*]Nerf queen max energy so they don't have infinite transfuses. [*]Nerf the Lurker. It's too cost efficient for a race that's supposed not to be and basically counters all Protoss ground units. I suggest removing at least one of the two completely asinine Hive upgrades that eliminate their counterplay, forcing the protoss into Air every game, which is a big problem when it comes to build variety. (Basically lurker weakness is having to reposition and not being able to move while burrowed which limits their effective range and zoning. This is completely negated by their instant burrow and extra range upgrade. Which is dumb even as a concept. This limits ground based counterplay, forcing protists into Air every game). [*]Remove Abduct, it's a totally unnecessary ability in LotV. Useful in HotS, overkill now. [*]Remove vipers energy Regen ability. They might as well have infinite energy at the moment. Almost as broken as Kaydarin Amulet High Templars in WoL. At least put a limit to the amount of energy they can recover (Recover up to 100 energy, instead of all the energy you want, for example). [*]Change energy cost of Viper abilities. [*]Increase the cost of the nydus, or have a cap of 1-2 max. I would honestly just remove Nydus. Just like the Mother ship core it should have never existed. But alas, not going to happen. I think one or two of those proposed Nerfs would help the matchup a lot without affecting TvZ or PvT considerably.
I pretty much agree with all of this and have been preaching this for a long time.
Remove viper Regen
Make nydus riskier and more costly to use
Give protoss an actual counter to lurkers so it's not a free win to the zerg if you haven't already made carriers
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On July 31 2021 03:59 [Phantom] wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 16:22 tigera6 wrote:On July 30 2021 15:59 Garbo1 wrote:On July 30 2021 15:45 [Phantom] wrote:
I think I was misunderstood or explained myself incorrectly in my post from the previous page. I said Protons should Not be buffed as I think it's already strong vs Terran, and instead Zerg should be nerfed in ways that help Protists build variety.
For what is worth, I do think Dark deserved to win.
As For this:
"I think it's nonsense that Zerg is too versatile. Zerg have a few approved builds, Terran even fewer, whereas Protoss have so many viable combinations and openers that you have to constantly scout to make sure you're not being mind gamed."
I'm not sure. Outside of DTs you're only scouting the way you should scout any race. In ZvP that is: is the Protoss going adepts, disruptors or VR?
Zerg has baneling bust, ravager bust, 12 pool, queen walks, roach hydra lurker, muta, ling hydra, infestor Roach Hydra, Nydus all in. Zerg doesn't have as many units as other races, but they are very versatile in their gameplay. Protoss builds are very restrictive and the gameplay is too. You've listed a bunch of Zerg builds, most of which are mid game pushes. As far as early game pushes, is protoss going adept, disruptor, voidray? What about Oracle, phoenix, blink stalker, DT, Cannon rush? Each one of these requires a different counter and can needs to be countered instinctively with just the right combination of units, and each one can be achieved in early game and needs to be scouted to be able to counter. Zerg with larva can build all at once to counter quickly enough, Terran are just abused if they get it wrong. Yeah, seriously, I mean Trap was simply playing too standard, with 2 Oracles into Adepts in to DTs into Ground army push, he has played that same way in PvZ for almost 3 months or something. There are loads of other builds that Zest has shown against Reynor and Serral, but Trap didnt choose to do anything of those, because they are harder to transition out of. Hell, I remember Trap took a game from Dark in GSL Final 2 years ago with Cannon Rush, but he chose to not do that this time around. To address this and the previous post, making oracles when going Stargate is as much as a build as going observer when going robo, as in not at all. If you're going Stargate you're going to need detection, so you're a going to get at least one Oracle. It can harass, yes, but all air can. That's the role of Stargate in the early/mid in PvZ, if you notice all those units give Protoss some form or map control and harass. The only exception are proxy oracle builds but they are not really used in PvZ. Blink all ins haven't worked in a long time. Phoenix openings have been out of meta and in all the GSL matches I've seen in the last year where they were used the Protoss lost (which were like 3 games total, but feel free to provide examples). Show nested quote +Trap didnt choose to do anything of those, because they are harder to transition out of. But that's a big part of the problem, isn't it? One of the reasons Stargate Openings are used is because it's the only tech tree that gives you some form of map control, and it's the only tech tree that can deal cost efficiently with lurkers, so if you're going to need them in the late game might as well start now. If you start with twilight/robo, you will have a good opportunity to push after the time the Zerg set up his third and before/during the time he is making his fourth. After that you just hope disruptors can buy you enough time to transition to air. And then comes the vipers. You will notice this in all PvZ. It's basically scripted honestly. Again, I think Dark deserved to win. It's just that I wish protoss had more options and I feel the queens being so strong, and then the lurkers and vipers later on, basically force protoss into a very specific path, which makes them bad in bo7.
Okay, to address your point, player dont have to open with Stargate Oracle first, you can open with Robo. The cost of an observer is half (in term of gas) of an Oracle, and Trap normally build TWO of them. Thats 300 gas could be for something else if you only need scouting, not harassment. And you can even scout with a Sentry Hallucination, and keep the Sentry around for Force Field later.
In term of other openings, I saw Zest beating Reynor with Phoenix chargelot in IEM, opening with VR to deny scouting and massing up Phoenix count at home. Threre is also the Archon Chargelot build in recent DH that almost won Zest another game on Reynor had he not lost the Archon to micro/ping issue. Then there is the 2 base all-in version of Robo first with Disruptor into Colossus into non-blink Stalker. Seriously, there are different opening that could either win the game to deal heavy damage to Zerg economy in early game. That allow Toss a chance for a transition into later tech and might even get ahead. Trap macro has been crazy good, like he could transition out of any tech in PvT, be it 4-gate Blink, DT, Proxy Stargate, ect....You cant tell me he cant transition out of any of the above tech.
And what you said about the standard twightlight/robo after initial harrassment simply doesnt work against Dark, because he doesnt Drone up like crazy like Serral or Reynor. Dark actually has a good army to defense against any initial ground push. Passing that point, it becomes a lategame situation which favor Dark more. And like I said, I havent seen Trap playing that much with lategame Skytoss army, which means he might not be as great with it like Zest.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 31 2021 09:58 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2021 09:52 QOGQOG wrote:
Can't help but feel that the people saying the only relevant Protoss for years is actually bad would be crying GOAT and ZERGED for a player with identical results who played Terran. Yeah. People are hating way to hard on Trap. He is losing to the best Korean Zergs and Terrans. His choke factor against players below his tier level is almost non-existent. If Trap won the GSL today he’d be in the conversation for top 3 Protoss of all time, that’s how close he is at the moment.
THey're hard on Trap but honestly, Trap doesn't have any results that would cry GOAT even if he would be a foreign Terran. How many WC titles? How many Code S titles? These are the things that broke the neck of Taeja when talking about GOATs 
And Trap hasn't win as many titles as Taeja IIRC
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On July 31 2021 13:48 Sunburn74 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 08:06 [Phantom] wrote:On July 30 2021 07:05 Cricketer12 wrote:
How the hell did everyone miss the LR for this? TL was shutdown for a day in support of actiBlizz staff. I must keep saying this: Zerg is just too versatile. M They have too many strategies and you need to account for alm of them limiting Protons builda. On top of that Nydia is completely dumb. "oh they saw the nydus, I'll guess is just make five more". I'm not even convinced Trap could have stopped that push even if dark just had the Nydus at the front. There's also that other game where trap was about to win, and then suddenly two vipers come out of nowhere kill 3 colossus AND still have energy for blinding cloud. Or how Queens are and make everything else immortal. Protoss won't win a major tournament as long as they have two viable builds and Zerg is still so versatile. Want to know the reason why Protoss still do the terrible adept build? It's not because the pros think it's good. It's because if they do the same strategy all games they will lose even harder, so they need to mix it up. And if for some reason you don't scout the adepts, it can still work Ok compared to most other Protoss builds. It at least gets some drone kills. Still, that doesn't make it good, but necessary. This is a result of years of nerfing different Protoss early agression strategies. (Some deservingly, some not). Basically: Protists needs some buffs to help build variety. Or Zerg needs some nerfs to help Protoss have some build variety. Because Protoss is fairly strong against Terran in the Late game, Zerg should be nerfed. I think at least 1 or 2 of these would help a lot: [*]Nerf queen max energy so they don't have infinite transfuses. [*]Nerf the Lurker. It's too cost efficient for a race that's supposed not to be and basically counters all Protoss ground units. I suggest removing at least one of the two completely asinine Hive upgrades that eliminate their counterplay, forcing the protoss into Air every game, which is a big problem when it comes to build variety. (Basically lurker weakness is having to reposition and not being able to move while burrowed which limits their effective range and zoning. This is completely negated by their instant burrow and extra range upgrade. Which is dumb even as a concept. This limits ground based counterplay, forcing protists into Air every game). [*]Remove Abduct, it's a totally unnecessary ability in LotV. Useful in HotS, overkill now. [*]Remove vipers energy Regen ability. They might as well have infinite energy at the moment. Almost as broken as Kaydarin Amulet High Templars in WoL. At least put a limit to the amount of energy they can recover (Recover up to 100 energy, instead of all the energy you want, for example). [*]Change energy cost of Viper abilities. [*]Increase the cost of the nydus, or have a cap of 1-2 max. I would honestly just remove Nydus. Just like the Mother ship core it should have never existed. But alas, not going to happen. I think one or two of those proposed Nerfs would help the matchup a lot without affecting TvZ or PvT considerably. I pretty much agree with all of this and have been preaching this for a long time. Remove viper Regen Make nydus riskier and more costly to use Give protoss an actual counter to lurkers so it's not a free win to the zerg if you haven't already made carriers
Not sure how well Zerg would fare in the early game without the queen, but the unit's excellent air and ground defense in the early game really hurts the viewer experience and enjoyment of both ZvP and ZvT. As making many of them is so rewarding you get pretty much unhindered droning to 70 and unhampered creep spread, so I routinely skip to the 5-6 minute mark nowadays when watching Z games.
But now we see them constantly in late game too, as a staple of the late game army. Coupled with a siege unit in the lurker, that negates its siege property by instantly burrowing (even chasing units down, running up to them and burrowing next to them - a silly sight if anything).
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On July 31 2021 09:52 QOGQOG wrote:
Can't help but feel that the people saying the only relevant Protoss for years is actually bad would be crying GOAT and ZERGED for a player with identical results who played Terran.
please stop with this victimizing bullshit.
Trap is obviously a fantastic player but he played objectively bad in this finals... as he did last season vs Maru after being up 3:0... as he did at IEM Katowice... it's clearly a mental problem for him considering how easily he wins tier 2 tournaments- I don't understand the balance discussion here
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On July 31 2021 11:47 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2021 00:11 BisuDagger wrote:On July 30 2021 17:16 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:On July 30 2021 13:49 parksonsc wrote:
What a timing to shutdown TL during the Code S finals, tbh I couldn't care less about the ongoing drama but why couldn't we (just SC2 fans) have a place to discuss during the finals? Just make a topic or a banner for that drama is good enough. I strongly disagree here. If you want the message to mean anything, it has to be on a day people will actually notice it. While it sucks to have TL down for such a big event, I think it was the best way to do the blackout. EDIT: It's also the day of a bigger organised Activision Blizzard walkout. So it would not make much sense to do it a different day anyhow. Tastosis were already removed from live English casts of ASL in SC1. The last thing I'd want is for the Afreeca Team to see a massive drop in English viewers and use that as an excuse to cut their casting time down. Sure the blackout proved a big point, but I hate that it potentially severely punished the GSL stream, Afreeca Crew, and the players who have nothing to do with Blizzard Culture. To make things worse, Blizzard doesn't even give a fuck about their game, let alone about a forum with a couple dozen people posting. Can't imagine this blackout is ''making a point'' or helping when its on a forum about a game in which they don't bother with swapping in maps that were already made for them and uploaded on their servers. Its a ''fuck you'' to the posters, not to Blizzard. Show nested quote +On July 31 2021 10:13 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On July 31 2021 08:28 Morbidius wrote:On July 30 2021 22:23 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On July 30 2021 09:56 Vindicare605 wrote:
Super Tournaments are routinely dominated by them and Protoss wins plenty just about everywhere else. The problem is Trap. The dude just IS NOT cut out to be a consistent champion. That's lovely. Trap is the only Protoss to have won a Premier tournament that doesn't have 'NA' on it since Classic went to the military. If he's not 'cut out to be a consistent champion' then Protoss is in deep trouble, because Trap is carrying Protoss harder than Maru ever had to carry Terran. In PvP finals coming from brackets filled with Protoss, if it wasn't Trap it would be Stats, Zest or Zoun. You should not even mention this choke artist in the same sentence as 2018 Maru. You can imagine Stats, Zest and Zoun winning as much as you like. In the real world, they haven't. Its not about them winning, its about Trap ''carrying the race''. Its bullshit to say he is carrying the race on his back and that Protoss would not win without him when every single of his wins in Korea were PvP finals.
If it's bullshit, I'm sure you can name a Premier tournament without NA in the title that was won by a non-imaginary, non-Trap Protoss.
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On July 31 2021 20:57 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2021 11:47 Morbidius wrote:On July 31 2021 00:11 BisuDagger wrote:On July 30 2021 17:16 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:On July 30 2021 13:49 parksonsc wrote:
What a timing to shutdown TL during the Code S finals, tbh I couldn't care less about the ongoing drama but why couldn't we (just SC2 fans) have a place to discuss during the finals? Just make a topic or a banner for that drama is good enough. I strongly disagree here. If you want the message to mean anything, it has to be on a day people will actually notice it. While it sucks to have TL down for such a big event, I think it was the best way to do the blackout. EDIT: It's also the day of a bigger organised Activision Blizzard walkout. So it would not make much sense to do it a different day anyhow. Tastosis were already removed from live English casts of ASL in SC1. The last thing I'd want is for the Afreeca Team to see a massive drop in English viewers and use that as an excuse to cut their casting time down. Sure the blackout proved a big point, but I hate that it potentially severely punished the GSL stream, Afreeca Crew, and the players who have nothing to do with Blizzard Culture. To make things worse, Blizzard doesn't even give a fuck about their game, let alone about a forum with a couple dozen people posting. Can't imagine this blackout is ''making a point'' or helping when its on a forum about a game in which they don't bother with swapping in maps that were already made for them and uploaded on their servers. Its a ''fuck you'' to the posters, not to Blizzard. On July 31 2021 10:13 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On July 31 2021 08:28 Morbidius wrote:On July 30 2021 22:23 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On July 30 2021 09:56 Vindicare605 wrote:
Super Tournaments are routinely dominated by them and Protoss wins plenty just about everywhere else. The problem is Trap. The dude just IS NOT cut out to be a consistent champion. That's lovely. Trap is the only Protoss to have won a Premier tournament that doesn't have 'NA' on it since Classic went to the military. If he's not 'cut out to be a consistent champion' then Protoss is in deep trouble, because Trap is carrying Protoss harder than Maru ever had to carry Terran. In PvP finals coming from brackets filled with Protoss, if it wasn't Trap it would be Stats, Zest or Zoun. You should not even mention this choke artist in the same sentence as 2018 Maru. You can imagine Stats, Zest and Zoun winning as much as you like. In the real world, they haven't. Its not about them winning, its about Trap ''carrying the race''. Its bullshit to say he is carrying the race on his back and that Protoss would not win without him when every single of his wins in Korea were PvP finals. If it's bullshit, I'm sure you can name a Premier tournament without NA in the title that was won by a non-imaginary, non-Trap Protoss.
I'm sure you can name a Korean tournament that would not be won by Protoss had Trap lost in the finals.
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On July 31 2021 20:57 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2021 11:47 Morbidius wrote:On July 31 2021 00:11 BisuDagger wrote:On July 30 2021 17:16 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:On July 30 2021 13:49 parksonsc wrote:
What a timing to shutdown TL during the Code S finals, tbh I couldn't care less about the ongoing drama but why couldn't we (just SC2 fans) have a place to discuss during the finals? Just make a topic or a banner for that drama is good enough. I strongly disagree here. If you want the message to mean anything, it has to be on a day people will actually notice it. While it sucks to have TL down for such a big event, I think it was the best way to do the blackout. EDIT: It's also the day of a bigger organised Activision Blizzard walkout. So it would not make much sense to do it a different day anyhow. Tastosis were already removed from live English casts of ASL in SC1. The last thing I'd want is for the Afreeca Team to see a massive drop in English viewers and use that as an excuse to cut their casting time down. Sure the blackout proved a big point, but I hate that it potentially severely punished the GSL stream, Afreeca Crew, and the players who have nothing to do with Blizzard Culture. To make things worse, Blizzard doesn't even give a fuck about their game, let alone about a forum with a couple dozen people posting. Can't imagine this blackout is ''making a point'' or helping when its on a forum about a game in which they don't bother with swapping in maps that were already made for them and uploaded on their servers. Its a ''fuck you'' to the posters, not to Blizzard. On July 31 2021 10:13 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On July 31 2021 08:28 Morbidius wrote:On July 30 2021 22:23 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On July 30 2021 09:56 Vindicare605 wrote:
Super Tournaments are routinely dominated by them and Protoss wins plenty just about everywhere else. The problem is Trap. The dude just IS NOT cut out to be a consistent champion. That's lovely. Trap is the only Protoss to have won a Premier tournament that doesn't have 'NA' on it since Classic went to the military. If he's not 'cut out to be a consistent champion' then Protoss is in deep trouble, because Trap is carrying Protoss harder than Maru ever had to carry Terran. In PvP finals coming from brackets filled with Protoss, if it wasn't Trap it would be Stats, Zest or Zoun. You should not even mention this choke artist in the same sentence as 2018 Maru. You can imagine Stats, Zest and Zoun winning as much as you like. In the real world, they haven't. Its not about them winning, its about Trap ''carrying the race''. Its bullshit to say he is carrying the race on his back and that Protoss would not win without him when every single of his wins in Korea were PvP finals. If it's bullshit, I'm sure you can name a Premier tournament without NA in the title that was won by a non-imaginary, non-Trap Protoss.
I guess you think Zest, Parting, Zoun are simply just terrible Toss player or something? You know that, you are right, screw that 2 time latest IEM-Finalist, or the Top 4 IEM this year. Hell, lets take winning some 25-30k prize pool tournament over the 2 x runner up of the Wolrd Champision with 500k prize pool. Real expert opinion you got there.
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EPT
