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Quite a disappointing final. Trap just seemed off though he also had kinda rotten luck with maps. A lot of the more Zerg-friendly maps ended up in these games. Nothing Dark did was particularly revolutionary or surprising, Trap just didn't seem to handle anything all that great. Had Dark not forgotten to bring an overseer with his queen walk in the one game Trap won, it probably would have been a 4-0 sweep.
On July 30 2021 06:37 LHK wrote:
Completely unrelated, I read that Blizzard has reached out to pros asking for feedback towards a new balance patch -- Any thoughts as to what you'd like to see changed if/when we get a new patch? I think it's a given that something likely will be happening targeting void ray/battery rushes and possibly queen walks. Both have been very common at both the pro level and on ladder for months now and it's clear that even after a significant amount of time has been given to figure out viable solutions to both, they still remain quite strong. While pros are starting to get a bit better at handling both of these strategies, they are still highly prevalent on ladder and seem to be souring a lot of folks' ladder experience in a way that's not good for the health of the game.
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I'm a HUGE Trap fan and was really hoping he'd pull it out against Dark, but he certainly didn't deserve to be champion with the level of play he displayed yesterday. Honestly, Dark was solid but it wasn't as if he played magnificently--Trap had legitimate chances to win most of the games but made horrible, baffling decisions at critical moments.
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On July 30 2021 08:06 [Phantom] wrote:
I agree with the design flaws of Lurker being able to reposition so quickly with the help of the upgrade. It's crazy to see Zergs bum rush your army/base with Lurkers. That should be more risky of a move. Lurkers are too mobile. Instead of being a unit that holds positions and works well defensively, it's also very versatile offensively, and being able to move forward as easily as it does and siege a position does allow for games to end a bit suddenly. We don't want the game to be too punishing, we want games to be able to play out as longer macro games given close enough skill levels.
I also really really agree with the Viper. Abduct really has no place in LotV. It's going against the goals that LotV set and made big leaps towards. The initial need for the Viper and its abilities was to help fight and discourage deathballs, because this was way back in a time when WoL (especially Protoss) was very deathbally. So Viper was introduced in HotS to help pull big units and kill them off.
Now, LotV has done a good job making macro games more spread out across the map and spanning multiple bases, and also getting armies to be more split up and doing things around the map. LotV has also done a good job making moving your army around the map and engaging less committal. Being too scared to poke or engage in WoL, beacuse once the engage starts you can't back up, was 1 of the huge reasons why games were so deathbally.
Now, what does Viper and Abduct do? It allows you to pull units for basically free, punishing players for poking or being active with their army. It's not an interesting unit and helps to negate positional play. Abduct is an instant cast and can't be interrupted. It also pulls the unit almost instantly. All these traits together, in combination with being able to just recharge energy by sucking HP from buildings, really makes for a poorly designed and uninteresting ability. (Consuming building HP isn't even a big deal because you can just Transfuse or spend a little minerals to make Evos/Hatches).
Even if PvZ is balanced (I'm not a pro so I don't know), Abduct is a very anti-hype ability to watch as a spectator. It FEELS so unfair seeing a Zerg get to Lurker+Viper when the Protoss has only reached only Colossus (if they chose that over Storm or Air), and just getting free snipes on Colossus. It's so anticlimactic and it feels like shit as a player too.
I think changing Abduct and/or nerfing Consume would be really good. Make it so that Abduct pulls units in not as instantly, so that you can snipe/kill them off to stop the pull mid-way. Or make it so that Abduct specifically doesn't pull Massive units instantly, or maybe it can pull them instantly but only half the distance so it's not a guaranteed kill. Or maybe Abduct itself doesn't cast as instantly, and you're allowed to Feedback to stop it before it starts to pull. Or other similar ideas. For Consume, I don't know if it's really necessary at all, but I agree with raising the cooldown or reducing the amount of energy you gain. It doesn't feel like Viper using its energy up has enough weight or commitment. Because after a big fight they can Consume and they'll have energy again to defend any counter attack. Even if you think Abduct should stay the way it is, please at least nerf Consume... I didn't even know that you're allowed to recharge all the energy you want with it. Wouldn't recharging say 100 energy already be quite nice? I know Zerg is supposed to have powerful spellcasters to manipulate the battlefield (both true in BW and SC2), but it feels overkill.
For Queen, capping the energy at 150 or 175 instead of 200 might be an interesting change too to reduce lategame mass Queens' power.
A few months ago, when it seemed PvZ was in a really bad state, I was advocating for changes to Viper/Abduct and Lurkers. Because often times it seems Zerg would just roll Protoss with Ravagers before they have enough strong tech units, or Protoss might be ahead but Zerg is still able to double tech to both Viper and Lurker and just beat the Protoss army in the most lame way (pulling Colossus). After the Void buff, it seems it helped a lot and PvZ is in a pretty healthy state, but I didn't realize that it's probably the Lurker being so good that Protoss has been discouraged from sticking to ground armies in the lategame. (Or maybe it's also that Abduct makes Colossus not worth it anymore?). Though I think the armies we see lategame are fine, Golden Armada is iconic for Protoss and they support it with Templar and Robo tech. But it would be nice if Protoss didn't feel forced to go Air so often in the early-mid game.
Sorry for the balance post, hope it's OK.
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Well, I did say this series has "4-1 Dark" written all over the place, and it did happen that way. I think people are saying Trap lost because he made critical mistakes in the games, which is true, but that also give some credit to Dark performance as well. I dont think any of Trap "vanilla gameplan" like Oracle/Adept really dealt any damage, and then come the Ground Army push at the 4th base timing into a bigger Dark army most of the time. When none of those things work, Trap is pressured to make riskier move and with it more chance to make mistake and blunder.
Trap won 70-80% of his PvZ games base on those above 2 things, and when they dont work, leaving it into the late game, Dark is just the better player. I think Trap getting way used to playing standard that he forgot about all the cheese build and pressure all-in. Moreover, Trap is not a Skytoss builder like Zest as well.
Edit: As for the thing about balance gaming, I think its hard to buff Protoss any further without affecting PvT, and that matchup is already in a "Dark" place for Terran imo.
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On July 30 2021 08:06 [Phantom] wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 07:05 Cricketer12 wrote:
How the hell did everyone miss the LR for this? I must keep saying this: Zerg is just too versatile.
I think it's nonsense that Zerg is too versatile. Zerg have a few approved builds, Terran even fewer, whereas Protoss have so many viable combinations and openers that you have to constantly scout to make sure you're not being mind gamed.
To nobody's surprise, I'm glad that Trap lost. In my mind, GSL winners are players who seem virtually unstoppable and playing out of their MIND to win. Trap comes across as someone who wins not by being the best, but by virtue of everyone else being a bit crap. I know that's going to inflame a lot of Trap fans, sorry not sorry.
Dark played super well. His patience and cost efficiency have made him into a different breed of Zerg. There were moments when he was throwing Ling Bane Hydra at Archon Storm where I was CERTAIN he was going to run out if money, so they weren't great games... but thankfully Trap engaged into those armies for whatever reason.
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On July 30 2021 12:22 Garbo1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 08:06 [Phantom] wrote:On July 30 2021 07:05 Cricketer12 wrote:
How the hell did everyone miss the LR for this? I must keep saying this: Zerg is just too versatile. I think it's nonsense that Zerg is too versatile. Zerg have a few approved builds, Terran even fewer, whereas Protoss have so many viable combinations and openers that you have to constantly scout to make sure you're not being mind gamed. To nobody's surprise, I'm glad that Trap lost. In my mind, GSL winners are players who seem virtually unstoppable and playing out of their MIND to win. Trap comes across as someone who wins not by being the best, but by virtue of everyone else being a bit crap. I know that's going to inflame a lot of Trap fans, sorry not sorry. Dark played super well. His patience and cost efficiency have made him into a different breed of Zerg. There were moments when he was throwing Ling Bane Hydra at Archon Storm where I was CERTAIN he was going to run out if money, so they weren't great games... but thankfully Trap engaged into those armies for whatever reason.
Trap is very good, maybe even AMAZING at PvT. He sucks vs Zerg. I've been saying it for years. He falls apart in PvZ, and his big weakness in every match up is his mental ability to handle pressure, so he goes on tilt worse in that match up than he does in the others.
Dark is ruthless and seems to NEVER go on tilt. He's just better championship material than Trap is. PvZ is also one of if not his best match up (debatable with ZvZ) if you want to knock out Dark, you better do it with a Terran because he eats Protoss for breakfast.
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Zerg has won the last 5 WCS and the last 6 IEM events, the two biggest tourneys. Also, Zerg has won and incredible 7 out of 10 Blizz-Con/Wcs World championships. I think they can handle being nerfed. Honestly to deny that there are any balance issues with Zerg is to bury your head in the sand and not seek to improve the game. Is it too late to come up with solutions?
And do we have a community so averse to candid balance discussion that the conversation can't even be had openly and honestly?
It certainly seems like it, because I feel anything I say will be either censored or drowned out with the usual call "toss IMBA" .
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On July 30 2021 12:26 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 12:22 Garbo1 wrote:On July 30 2021 08:06 [Phantom] wrote:On July 30 2021 07:05 Cricketer12 wrote:
How the hell did everyone miss the LR for this? I must keep saying this: Zerg is just too versatile. I think it's nonsense that Zerg is too versatile. Zerg have a few approved builds, Terran even fewer, whereas Protoss have so many viable combinations and openers that you have to constantly scout to make sure you're not being mind gamed. To nobody's surprise, I'm glad that Trap lost. In my mind, GSL winners are players who seem virtually unstoppable and playing out of their MIND to win. Trap comes across as someone who wins not by being the best, but by virtue of everyone else being a bit crap. I know that's going to inflame a lot of Trap fans, sorry not sorry. Dark played super well. His patience and cost efficiency have made him into a different breed of Zerg. There were moments when he was throwing Ling Bane Hydra at Archon Storm where I was CERTAIN he was going to run out if money, so they weren't great games... but thankfully Trap engaged into those armies for whatever reason. Trap is very good, maybe even AMAZING at PvT. He sucks vs Zerg. I've been saying it for years. He falls apart in PvZ, and his big weakness in every match up is his mental ability to handle pressure, so he goes on tilt worse in that match up than he does in the others. Dark is ruthless and seems to NEVER go on tilt. He's just better championship material than Trap is. PvZ is also one of if not his best match up (debatable with ZvZ) if you want to knock out Dark, you better do it with a Terran because he eats Protoss for breakfast.
I feel like I have seen Dark get tilted before, not quite sure where. Almost definitely in that Byun Blizzcon 2016 final. But Trap does get tilted more, it's why I'm always surprised when he manages to beat someone like Maru even if PvT is heavily protoss favoured.
The end of that first game though, I looked away for a moment and then Dark won. Watching the replay now, Dark's ultra reinforcements came in and deleted virtually 60% of Trap's army within 10 seconds, it was kind of nuts.
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On July 30 2021 12:32 VamosSC wrote:
Zerg has won the last 5 WCS and the last 6 IEM events, the two biggest tourneys. Also, Zerg has won and incredible 7 out of 10 Blizz-Con/Wcs World championships. I think they can handle being nerfed. Honestly to deny that there are any balance issues with Zerg is to bury your head in the sand and not seek to improve the game. Is it too late to come up with solutions?
And do we have a community so averse to candid balance discussion that the conversation can't even be had openly and honestly?
It certainly seems like it, because I feel anything I say will be either censored or drowned out with the usual call "toss IMBA" .
Because Toss IMBA.
I don't buy that it's not possible for protoss to win championships, it just so happens that the top protoss players just aren't as good as the top Zerg players. If anyone needs a buff it's Terran.
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On July 30 2021 10:33 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:I agree with the design flaws of Lurker being able to reposition so quickly with the help of the upgrade. It's crazy to see Zergs bum rush your army/base with Lurkers. That should be more risky of a move. Lurkers are too mobile. Instead of being a unit that holds positions and works well defensively, it's also very versatile offensively, and being able to move forward as easily as it does and siege a position does allow for games to end a bit suddenly. We don't want the game to be too punishing, we want games to be able to play out as longer macro games given close enough skill levels. I also really really agree with the Viper. Abduct really has no place in LotV. It's going against the goals that LotV set and made big leaps towards. The initial need for the Viper and its abilities was to help fight and discourage deathballs, because this was way back in a time when WoL (especially Protoss) was very deathbally. So Viper was introduced in HotS to help pull big units and kill them off. Now, LotV has done a good job making macro games more spread out across the map and spanning multiple bases, and also getting armies to be more split up and doing things around the map. LotV has also done a good job making moving your army around the map and engaging less committal. Being too scared to poke or engage in WoL, beacuse once the engage starts you can't back up, was 1 of the huge reasons why games were so deathbally. Now, what does Viper and Abduct do? It allows you to pull units for basically free, punishing players for poking or being active with their army. It's not an interesting unit and helps to negate positional play. Abduct is an instant cast and can't be interrupted. It also pulls the unit almost instantly. All these traits together, in combination with being able to just recharge energy by sucking HP from buildings, really makes for a poorly designed and uninteresting ability. (Consuming building HP isn't even a big deal because you can just Transfuse or spend a little minerals to make Evos/Hatches). Even if PvZ is balanced (I'm not a pro so I don't know), Abduct is a very anti-hype ability to watch as a spectator. It FEELS so unfair seeing a Zerg get to Lurker+Viper when the Protoss has only reached only Colossus (if they chose that over Storm or Air), and just getting free snipes on Colossus. It's so anticlimactic and it feels like shit as a player too. I think changing Abduct and/or nerfing Consume would be really good. Make it so that Abduct pulls units in not as instantly, so that you can snipe/kill them off to stop the pull mid-way. Or make it so that Abduct specifically doesn't pull Massive units instantly, or maybe it can pull them instantly but only half the distance so it's not a guaranteed kill. Or maybe Abduct itself doesn't cast as instantly, and you're allowed to Feedback to stop it before it starts to pull. Or other similar ideas. For Consume, I don't know if it's really necessary at all, but I agree with raising the cooldown or reducing the amount of energy you gain. It doesn't feel like Viper using its energy up has enough weight or commitment. Because after a big fight they can Consume and they'll have energy again to defend any counter attack. Even if you think Abduct should stay the way it is, please at least nerf Consume... I didn't even know that you're allowed to recharge all the energy you want with it. Wouldn't recharging say 100 energy already be quite nice? I know Zerg is supposed to have powerful spellcasters to manipulate the battlefield (both true in BW and SC2), but it feels overkill. For Queen, capping the energy at 150 or 175 instead of 200 might be an interesting change too to reduce lategame mass Queens' power. A few months ago, when it seemed PvZ was in a really bad state, I was advocating for changes to Viper/Abduct and Lurkers. Because often times it seems Zerg would just roll Protoss with Ravagers before they have enough strong tech units, or Protoss might be ahead but Zerg is still able to double tech to both Viper and Lurker and just beat the Protoss army in the most lame way (pulling Colossus). After the Void buff, it seems it helped a lot and PvZ is in a pretty healthy state, but I didn't realize that it's probably the Lurker being so good that Protoss has been discouraged from sticking to ground armies in the lategame. (Or maybe it's also that Abduct makes Colossus not worth it anymore?). Though I think the armies we see lategame are fine, Golden Armada is iconic for Protoss and they support it with Templar and Robo tech. But it would be nice if Protoss didn't feel forced to go Air so often in the early-mid game. Sorry for the balance post, hope it's OK.
Its not like you're whining, You are trying to propose solutions and get to the root of the problem.
I see it this way in 2021 in regards to PvZ.
Protoss ground simply can't compete with Zerg once the game gets to a certain point. The gateway units are not very efficient, and the Zerg can massive outproduce them. If the toss ever gets a foothold, Lurkers are the ultimate death sentence for any toss trying to play ground. This forces the Protoss to go for a late game mass air army, which is actually perhaps too strong (especially at lower levels than the very top). This desire to turtle and mass air leads to very boring, passive games.
The solution (in my eyes) Is for Protoss ground to somehow be more viable, while making the Skytoss death ball perhaps a bit weaker. Solutions that promote more dynamic play, and less camping to get up to that "perfect composition".
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On July 30 2021 12:38 VamosSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 10:33 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On July 30 2021 08:06 [Phantom] wrote:
I agree with the design flaws of Lurker being able to reposition so quickly with the help of the upgrade. It's crazy to see Zergs bum rush your army/base with Lurkers. That should be more risky of a move. Lurkers are too mobile. Instead of being a unit that holds positions and works well defensively, it's also very versatile offensively, and being able to move forward as easily as it does and siege a position does allow for games to end a bit suddenly. We don't want the game to be too punishing, we want games to be able to play out as longer macro games given close enough skill levels. I also really really agree with the Viper. Abduct really has no place in LotV. It's going against the goals that LotV set and made big leaps towards. The initial need for the Viper and its abilities was to help fight and discourage deathballs, because this was way back in a time when WoL (especially Protoss) was very deathbally. So Viper was introduced in HotS to help pull big units and kill them off. Now, LotV has done a good job making macro games more spread out across the map and spanning multiple bases, and also getting armies to be more split up and doing things around the map. LotV has also done a good job making moving your army around the map and engaging less committal. Being too scared to poke or engage in WoL, beacuse once the engage starts you can't back up, was 1 of the huge reasons why games were so deathbally. Now, what does Viper and Abduct do? It allows you to pull units for basically free, punishing players for poking or being active with their army. It's not an interesting unit and helps to negate positional play. Abduct is an instant cast and can't be interrupted. It also pulls the unit almost instantly. All these traits together, in combination with being able to just recharge energy by sucking HP from buildings, really makes for a poorly designed and uninteresting ability. (Consuming building HP isn't even a big deal because you can just Transfuse or spend a little minerals to make Evos/Hatches). Even if PvZ is balanced (I'm not a pro so I don't know), Abduct is a very anti-hype ability to watch as a spectator. It FEELS so unfair seeing a Zerg get to Lurker+Viper when the Protoss has only reached only Colossus (if they chose that over Storm or Air), and just getting free snipes on Colossus. It's so anticlimactic and it feels like shit as a player too. I think changing Abduct and/or nerfing Consume would be really good. Make it so that Abduct pulls units in not as instantly, so that you can snipe/kill them off to stop the pull mid-way. Or make it so that Abduct specifically doesn't pull Massive units instantly, or maybe it can pull them instantly but only half the distance so it's not a guaranteed kill. Or maybe Abduct itself doesn't cast as instantly, and you're allowed to Feedback to stop it before it starts to pull. Or other similar ideas. For Consume, I don't know if it's really necessary at all, but I agree with raising the cooldown or reducing the amount of energy you gain. It doesn't feel like Viper using its energy up has enough weight or commitment. Because after a big fight they can Consume and they'll have energy again to defend any counter attack. Even if you think Abduct should stay the way it is, please at least nerf Consume... I didn't even know that you're allowed to recharge all the energy you want with it. Wouldn't recharging say 100 energy already be quite nice? I know Zerg is supposed to have powerful spellcasters to manipulate the battlefield (both true in BW and SC2), but it feels overkill. For Queen, capping the energy at 150 or 175 instead of 200 might be an interesting change too to reduce lategame mass Queens' power. A few months ago, when it seemed PvZ was in a really bad state, I was advocating for changes to Viper/Abduct and Lurkers. Because often times it seems Zerg would just roll Protoss with Ravagers before they have enough strong tech units, or Protoss might be ahead but Zerg is still able to double tech to both Viper and Lurker and just beat the Protoss army in the most lame way (pulling Colossus). After the Void buff, it seems it helped a lot and PvZ is in a pretty healthy state, but I didn't realize that it's probably the Lurker being so good that Protoss has been discouraged from sticking to ground armies in the lategame. (Or maybe it's also that Abduct makes Colossus not worth it anymore?). Though I think the armies we see lategame are fine, Golden Armada is iconic for Protoss and they support it with Templar and Robo tech. But it would be nice if Protoss didn't feel forced to go Air so often in the early-mid game. Sorry for the balance post, hope it's OK. Its not like you're whining, You are trying to propose solutions and get to the root of the problem. I see it this way in 2021 in regards to PvZ. Protoss ground simply can't compete with Zerg once the game gets to a certain point. The gateway units are not very efficient, and the Zerg can massive outproduce them. If the toss ever gets a foothold, Lurkers are the ultimate death sentence for any toss trying to play ground. This forces the Protoss to go for a late game mass air army, which is actually perhaps too strong (especially at lower levels than the very top). This desire to turtle and mass air leads to very boring, passive games. The solution (in my eyes) Is for Protoss ground to somehow be more viable, while making the Skytoss death ball perhaps a bit weaker. Solutions that promote more dynamic play, and less camping to get up to that "perfect composition".
If you make the Toss ground army any stronger, Terran would scream to the end of their lungs. 4-gate Blink, DT, Chargelot Colossi, Disruptor ball, Toss has more than enough shit to kill Terran with just Ground units. And I dont think Lurker is the end-game for Zerg, its the Lurker-Viper combo interaction and Protoss somehow does not have both Templar and Disruptor together most of the time.
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On July 30 2021 13:03 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 12:38 VamosSC wrote:On July 30 2021 10:33 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On July 30 2021 08:06 [Phantom] wrote:
I agree with the design flaws of Lurker being able to reposition so quickly with the help of the upgrade. It's crazy to see Zergs bum rush your army/base with Lurkers. That should be more risky of a move. Lurkers are too mobile. Instead of being a unit that holds positions and works well defensively, it's also very versatile offensively, and being able to move forward as easily as it does and siege a position does allow for games to end a bit suddenly. We don't want the game to be too punishing, we want games to be able to play out as longer macro games given close enough skill levels. I also really really agree with the Viper. Abduct really has no place in LotV. It's going against the goals that LotV set and made big leaps towards. The initial need for the Viper and its abilities was to help fight and discourage deathballs, because this was way back in a time when WoL (especially Protoss) was very deathbally. So Viper was introduced in HotS to help pull big units and kill them off. Now, LotV has done a good job making macro games more spread out across the map and spanning multiple bases, and also getting armies to be more split up and doing things around the map. LotV has also done a good job making moving your army around the map and engaging less committal. Being too scared to poke or engage in WoL, beacuse once the engage starts you can't back up, was 1 of the huge reasons why games were so deathbally. Now, what does Viper and Abduct do? It allows you to pull units for basically free, punishing players for poking or being active with their army. It's not an interesting unit and helps to negate positional play. Abduct is an instant cast and can't be interrupted. It also pulls the unit almost instantly. All these traits together, in combination with being able to just recharge energy by sucking HP from buildings, really makes for a poorly designed and uninteresting ability. (Consuming building HP isn't even a big deal because you can just Transfuse or spend a little minerals to make Evos/Hatches). Even if PvZ is balanced (I'm not a pro so I don't know), Abduct is a very anti-hype ability to watch as a spectator. It FEELS so unfair seeing a Zerg get to Lurker+Viper when the Protoss has only reached only Colossus (if they chose that over Storm or Air), and just getting free snipes on Colossus. It's so anticlimactic and it feels like shit as a player too. I think changing Abduct and/or nerfing Consume would be really good. Make it so that Abduct pulls units in not as instantly, so that you can snipe/kill them off to stop the pull mid-way. Or make it so that Abduct specifically doesn't pull Massive units instantly, or maybe it can pull them instantly but only half the distance so it's not a guaranteed kill. Or maybe Abduct itself doesn't cast as instantly, and you're allowed to Feedback to stop it before it starts to pull. Or other similar ideas. For Consume, I don't know if it's really necessary at all, but I agree with raising the cooldown or reducing the amount of energy you gain. It doesn't feel like Viper using its energy up has enough weight or commitment. Because after a big fight they can Consume and they'll have energy again to defend any counter attack. Even if you think Abduct should stay the way it is, please at least nerf Consume... I didn't even know that you're allowed to recharge all the energy you want with it. Wouldn't recharging say 100 energy already be quite nice? I know Zerg is supposed to have powerful spellcasters to manipulate the battlefield (both true in BW and SC2), but it feels overkill. For Queen, capping the energy at 150 or 175 instead of 200 might be an interesting change too to reduce lategame mass Queens' power. A few months ago, when it seemed PvZ was in a really bad state, I was advocating for changes to Viper/Abduct and Lurkers. Because often times it seems Zerg would just roll Protoss with Ravagers before they have enough strong tech units, or Protoss might be ahead but Zerg is still able to double tech to both Viper and Lurker and just beat the Protoss army in the most lame way (pulling Colossus). After the Void buff, it seems it helped a lot and PvZ is in a pretty healthy state, but I didn't realize that it's probably the Lurker being so good that Protoss has been discouraged from sticking to ground armies in the lategame. (Or maybe it's also that Abduct makes Colossus not worth it anymore?). Though I think the armies we see lategame are fine, Golden Armada is iconic for Protoss and they support it with Templar and Robo tech. But it would be nice if Protoss didn't feel forced to go Air so often in the early-mid game. Sorry for the balance post, hope it's OK. Its not like you're whining, You are trying to propose solutions and get to the root of the problem. I see it this way in 2021 in regards to PvZ. Protoss ground simply can't compete with Zerg once the game gets to a certain point. The gateway units are not very efficient, and the Zerg can massive outproduce them. If the toss ever gets a foothold, Lurkers are the ultimate death sentence for any toss trying to play ground. This forces the Protoss to go for a late game mass air army, which is actually perhaps too strong (especially at lower levels than the very top). This desire to turtle and mass air leads to very boring, passive games. The solution (in my eyes) Is for Protoss ground to somehow be more viable, while making the Skytoss death ball perhaps a bit weaker. Solutions that promote more dynamic play, and less camping to get up to that "perfect composition". If you make the Toss ground army any stronger, Terran would scream to the end of their lungs. 4-gate Blink, DT, Chargelot Colossi, Disruptor ball, Toss has more than enough shit to kill Terran with just Ground units. And I dont think Lurker is the end-game for Zerg, its the Lurker-Viper combo interaction and Protoss somehow does not have both Templar and Disruptor together most of the time.
Yea if anything it's the opposite in TvP. Terran relies heavily on air units: Medivacs, Vikings, Liberators, Ravens and even in ultra late game Battlecruisers.
On the ground Terran gets absolutely massacred by Protoss ground unless they go pure Mech and even then.
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What a timing to shutdown TL during the Code S finals, tbh I couldn't care less about the ongoing drama but why couldn't we (just SC2 fans) have a place to discuss during the finals? Just make a topic or a banner for that drama is good enough.
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Extremely underwhelming, expected much much more from the guy everyone agrees is the best P in the world atm.
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On July 30 2021 13:22 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 13:03 tigera6 wrote:On July 30 2021 12:38 VamosSC wrote:On July 30 2021 10:33 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On July 30 2021 08:06 [Phantom] wrote:
I agree with the design flaws of Lurker being able to reposition so quickly with the help of the upgrade. It's crazy to see Zergs bum rush your army/base with Lurkers. That should be more risky of a move. Lurkers are too mobile. Instead of being a unit that holds positions and works well defensively, it's also very versatile offensively, and being able to move forward as easily as it does and siege a position does allow for games to end a bit suddenly. We don't want the game to be too punishing, we want games to be able to play out as longer macro games given close enough skill levels. I also really really agree with the Viper. Abduct really has no place in LotV. It's going against the goals that LotV set and made big leaps towards. The initial need for the Viper and its abilities was to help fight and discourage deathballs, because this was way back in a time when WoL (especially Protoss) was very deathbally. So Viper was introduced in HotS to help pull big units and kill them off. Now, LotV has done a good job making macro games more spread out across the map and spanning multiple bases, and also getting armies to be more split up and doing things around the map. LotV has also done a good job making moving your army around the map and engaging less committal. Being too scared to poke or engage in WoL, beacuse once the engage starts you can't back up, was 1 of the huge reasons why games were so deathbally. Now, what does Viper and Abduct do? It allows you to pull units for basically free, punishing players for poking or being active with their army. It's not an interesting unit and helps to negate positional play. Abduct is an instant cast and can't be interrupted. It also pulls the unit almost instantly. All these traits together, in combination with being able to just recharge energy by sucking HP from buildings, really makes for a poorly designed and uninteresting ability. (Consuming building HP isn't even a big deal because you can just Transfuse or spend a little minerals to make Evos/Hatches). Even if PvZ is balanced (I'm not a pro so I don't know), Abduct is a very anti-hype ability to watch as a spectator. It FEELS so unfair seeing a Zerg get to Lurker+Viper when the Protoss has only reached only Colossus (if they chose that over Storm or Air), and just getting free snipes on Colossus. It's so anticlimactic and it feels like shit as a player too. I think changing Abduct and/or nerfing Consume would be really good. Make it so that Abduct pulls units in not as instantly, so that you can snipe/kill them off to stop the pull mid-way. Or make it so that Abduct specifically doesn't pull Massive units instantly, or maybe it can pull them instantly but only half the distance so it's not a guaranteed kill. Or maybe Abduct itself doesn't cast as instantly, and you're allowed to Feedback to stop it before it starts to pull. Or other similar ideas. For Consume, I don't know if it's really necessary at all, but I agree with raising the cooldown or reducing the amount of energy you gain. It doesn't feel like Viper using its energy up has enough weight or commitment. Because after a big fight they can Consume and they'll have energy again to defend any counter attack. Even if you think Abduct should stay the way it is, please at least nerf Consume... I didn't even know that you're allowed to recharge all the energy you want with it. Wouldn't recharging say 100 energy already be quite nice? I know Zerg is supposed to have powerful spellcasters to manipulate the battlefield (both true in BW and SC2), but it feels overkill. For Queen, capping the energy at 150 or 175 instead of 200 might be an interesting change too to reduce lategame mass Queens' power. A few months ago, when it seemed PvZ was in a really bad state, I was advocating for changes to Viper/Abduct and Lurkers. Because often times it seems Zerg would just roll Protoss with Ravagers before they have enough strong tech units, or Protoss might be ahead but Zerg is still able to double tech to both Viper and Lurker and just beat the Protoss army in the most lame way (pulling Colossus). After the Void buff, it seems it helped a lot and PvZ is in a pretty healthy state, but I didn't realize that it's probably the Lurker being so good that Protoss has been discouraged from sticking to ground armies in the lategame. (Or maybe it's also that Abduct makes Colossus not worth it anymore?). Though I think the armies we see lategame are fine, Golden Armada is iconic for Protoss and they support it with Templar and Robo tech. But it would be nice if Protoss didn't feel forced to go Air so often in the early-mid game. Sorry for the balance post, hope it's OK. Its not like you're whining, You are trying to propose solutions and get to the root of the problem. I see it this way in 2021 in regards to PvZ. Protoss ground simply can't compete with Zerg once the game gets to a certain point. The gateway units are not very efficient, and the Zerg can massive outproduce them. If the toss ever gets a foothold, Lurkers are the ultimate death sentence for any toss trying to play ground. This forces the Protoss to go for a late game mass air army, which is actually perhaps too strong (especially at lower levels than the very top). This desire to turtle and mass air leads to very boring, passive games. The solution (in my eyes) Is for Protoss ground to somehow be more viable, while making the Skytoss death ball perhaps a bit weaker. Solutions that promote more dynamic play, and less camping to get up to that "perfect composition". If you make the Toss ground army any stronger, Terran would scream to the end of their lungs. 4-gate Blink, DT, Chargelot Colossi, Disruptor ball, Toss has more than enough shit to kill Terran with just Ground units. And I dont think Lurker is the end-game for Zerg, its the Lurker-Viper combo interaction and Protoss somehow does not have both Templar and Disruptor together most of the time. Yea if anything it's the opposite in TvP. Terran relies heavily on air units: Medivacs, Vikings, Liberators, Ravens and even in ultra late game Battlecruisers. On the ground Terran gets absolutely massacred by Protoss ground unless they go pure Mech and even then.
Terran making Sky unit as a reaction rather than to gain air dominance, Viking to counter Colossi and Ranged Libs to counter Disruptor. Then in lategame, Toss always transition into Carriers/Tempest first, and Terran matched that with Vikings and BCs.
Most of the time, Terran like to stay on ground with Tank Bio Mines and Medivac, but Toss can beat the shit out of that composition with just Gateway and Robo units.
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without a TL online i missed it. youtube notifications betrayed me. as my busy adult life i don't like.
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I don't think anyone is saying to buff Protoss ground so that P is even stronger in PvT. People here are only talking about nerfing Zerg in a way that helps Protoss ground vs Zerg while affecting ZvT minimally.
On July 30 2021 12:38 VamosSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 10:33 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On July 30 2021 08:06 [Phantom] wrote:
I agree with the design flaws of Lurker being able to reposition so quickly with the help of the upgrade. It's crazy to see Zergs bum rush your army/base with Lurkers. That should be more risky of a move. Lurkers are too mobile. Instead of being a unit that holds positions and works well defensively, it's also very versatile offensively, and being able to move forward as easily as it does and siege a position does allow for games to end a bit suddenly. We don't want the game to be too punishing, we want games to be able to play out as longer macro games given close enough skill levels. I also really really agree with the Viper. Abduct really has no place in LotV. It's going against the goals that LotV set and made big leaps towards. The initial need for the Viper and its abilities was to help fight and discourage deathballs, because this was way back in a time when WoL (especially Protoss) was very deathbally. So Viper was introduced in HotS to help pull big units and kill them off. Now, LotV has done a good job making macro games more spread out across the map and spanning multiple bases, and also getting armies to be more split up and doing things around the map. LotV has also done a good job making moving your army around the map and engaging less committal. Being too scared to poke or engage in WoL, beacuse once the engage starts you can't back up, was 1 of the huge reasons why games were so deathbally. Now, what does Viper and Abduct do? It allows you to pull units for basically free, punishing players for poking or being active with their army. It's not an interesting unit and helps to negate positional play. Abduct is an instant cast and can't be interrupted. It also pulls the unit almost instantly. All these traits together, in combination with being able to just recharge energy by sucking HP from buildings, really makes for a poorly designed and uninteresting ability. (Consuming building HP isn't even a big deal because you can just Transfuse or spend a little minerals to make Evos/Hatches). Even if PvZ is balanced (I'm not a pro so I don't know), Abduct is a very anti-hype ability to watch as a spectator. It FEELS so unfair seeing a Zerg get to Lurker+Viper when the Protoss has only reached only Colossus (if they chose that over Storm or Air), and just getting free snipes on Colossus. It's so anticlimactic and it feels like shit as a player too. I think changing Abduct and/or nerfing Consume would be really good. Make it so that Abduct pulls units in not as instantly, so that you can snipe/kill them off to stop the pull mid-way. Or make it so that Abduct specifically doesn't pull Massive units instantly, or maybe it can pull them instantly but only half the distance so it's not a guaranteed kill. Or maybe Abduct itself doesn't cast as instantly, and you're allowed to Feedback to stop it before it starts to pull. Or other similar ideas. For Consume, I don't know if it's really necessary at all, but I agree with raising the cooldown or reducing the amount of energy you gain. It doesn't feel like Viper using its energy up has enough weight or commitment. Because after a big fight they can Consume and they'll have energy again to defend any counter attack. Even if you think Abduct should stay the way it is, please at least nerf Consume... I didn't even know that you're allowed to recharge all the energy you want with it. Wouldn't recharging say 100 energy already be quite nice? I know Zerg is supposed to have powerful spellcasters to manipulate the battlefield (both true in BW and SC2), but it feels overkill. For Queen, capping the energy at 150 or 175 instead of 200 might be an interesting change too to reduce lategame mass Queens' power. A few months ago, when it seemed PvZ was in a really bad state, I was advocating for changes to Viper/Abduct and Lurkers. Because often times it seems Zerg would just roll Protoss with Ravagers before they have enough strong tech units, or Protoss might be ahead but Zerg is still able to double tech to both Viper and Lurker and just beat the Protoss army in the most lame way (pulling Colossus). After the Void buff, it seems it helped a lot and PvZ is in a pretty healthy state, but I didn't realize that it's probably the Lurker being so good that Protoss has been discouraged from sticking to ground armies in the lategame. (Or maybe it's also that Abduct makes Colossus not worth it anymore?). Though I think the armies we see lategame are fine, Golden Armada is iconic for Protoss and they support it with Templar and Robo tech. But it would be nice if Protoss didn't feel forced to go Air so often in the early-mid game. Sorry for the balance post, hope it's OK. Its not like you're whining, You are trying to propose solutions and get to the root of the problem. I see it this way in 2021 in regards to PvZ. Protoss ground simply can't compete with Zerg once the game gets to a certain point. The gateway units are not very efficient, and the Zerg can massive outproduce them. If the toss ever gets a foothold, Lurkers are the ultimate death sentence for any toss trying to play ground. This forces the Protoss to go for a late game mass air army, which is actually perhaps too strong (especially at lower levels than the very top). This desire to turtle and mass air leads to very boring, passive games. The solution (in my eyes) Is for Protoss ground to somehow be more viable, while making the Skytoss death ball perhaps a bit weaker. Solutions that promote more dynamic play, and less camping to get up to that "perfect composition".
Thanks. I wonder if they can push the Colossus to fill some lategame ground PvZ role, if they decide to go ground. Disruptors are very powerful, but Colossus could maybe come back to be a bit of a deathball-y unit for games that go very lategame specifically. (I think it's fine honestly, we're not going to have the deathball issues of WoL I don't think). And in return nerfing Protoss air slightly slightly if it's stronger than needed vs Zerg. (Though I think it's fine if Protoss air has slight advantage vs Zerg in extreme lategame, as long as getting there isn't too easy. Golden Armada after all etc. Also nerfing Protoss air can be risky because then it may be too hard to beat max Terran BC army).
But it does seem like nerfing Zerg stuff like Lurker and Abduct would probably be the best at helping PvZ ground armies while not affecting ZvT much. Heck, Viper/Abduct nerf would help mech TvZ too, which seems in an OK state but maybe slightly weak. Even if it's not a big change like removing Lurker burrow speed upgrade, maybe nerf the damage or attack right very slightly or something.
Come to think of it, what if we keep the burrow speed upgrade, but make it so that base Lurker burrow is slightly slower (and upgraded burrow is also slightly slower than now?) Would it make Lurkers too expensive to be worth getting early? Or would it just help ZvP, since at least to me it feels it's a bit too strong for Zerg to get the powerful Lurker+Viper combo so quick, while if a Protoss goes ground they usually only have either Colossus/Disruptors or HTs when they really need both?
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Germany3367 Posts
I, for one, am very pleased with this result as a Dark fan. It's good to see him on top again! 
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Mexico2170 Posts
I think I was misunderstood or explained myself incorrectly in my post from the previous page. I said Protons should Not be buffed as I think it's already strong vs Terran, and instead Zerg should be nerfed in ways that help Protists build variety.
For what is worth, I do think Dark deserved to win.
As For this:
"I think it's nonsense that Zerg is too versatile. Zerg have a few approved builds, Terran even fewer, whereas Protoss have so many viable combinations and openers that you have to constantly scout to make sure you're not being mind gamed."
I'm not sure. Outside of DTs you're only scouting the way you should scout any race. In ZvP that is: is the Protoss going adepts, disruptors or VR?
Zerg has baneling bust, ravager bust, 12 pool, queen walks, roach hydra lurker, muta, ling hydra, infestor Roach Hydra, Nydus all in. Zerg doesn't have as many units as other races, but they are very versatile in their gameplay. Protoss builds are very restrictive and the gameplay is too.
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On July 30 2021 15:45 [Phantom] wrote:
I think I was misunderstood or explained myself incorrectly in my post from the previous page. I said Protons should Not be buffed as I think it's already strong vs Terran, and instead Zerg should be nerfed in ways that help Protists build variety.
For what is worth, I do think Dark deserved to win.
As For this:
"I think it's nonsense that Zerg is too versatile. Zerg have a few approved builds, Terran even fewer, whereas Protoss have so many viable combinations and openers that you have to constantly scout to make sure you're not being mind gamed."
I'm not sure. Outside of DTs you're only scouting the way you should scout any race. In ZvP that is: is the Protoss going adepts, disruptors or VR?
Zerg has baneling bust, ravager bust, 12 pool, queen walks, roach hydra lurker, muta, ling hydra, infestor Roach Hydra, Nydus all in. Zerg doesn't have as many units as other races, but they are very versatile in their gameplay. Protoss builds are very restrictive and the gameplay is too.
You've listed a bunch of Zerg builds, most of which are mid game pushes. As far as early game pushes, is protoss going adept, disruptor, voidray? What about Oracle, phoenix, blink stalker, DT, Cannon rush? Each one of these requires a different counter and can needs to be countered instinctively with just the right combination of units, and each one can be achieved in early game and needs to be scouted to be able to counter.
Zerg with larva can build all at once to counter quickly enough, Terran are just abused if they get it wrong.
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EPT
