[GSL 2021] Code S - Grand Finals - Page 5

On July 31 2021 21:10 Morbidius wrote:

I'm sure you can name a Korean tournament that would not be won by Protoss had Trap lost in the finals.

On July 31 2021 21:28 tigera6 wrote:


I guess you think Zest, Parting, Zoun are simply just terrible Toss player or something? You know that, you are right, screw that 2 time latest IEM-Finalist, or the Top 4 IEM this year. Hell, lets take winning some 25-30k prize pool tournament over the 2 x runner up of the Wolrd Champision with 500k prize pool. Real expert opinion you got there.

On July 31 2021 21:38 Poopi wrote:

Zest top 2 at IEM is a better result than winning tier 2 tournaments though. Oh and if you seek « premier tournaments », the first thing they talk about to define it is how big the prize money is .

On July 31 2021 22:00 Fanatic-Templar wrote:


Easily. GSL 2021 S2.
You still haven't answered mine though.



The only way this post is even remotely close to coherence is if you're calling Ty a just terrible Terran player. Are you?



I'll start caring about "top 2" when Soo's 6 GSL silvers are given comparable respect to Maru's 4 GSL golds.

On July 31 2021 23:37 tigera6 wrote:


Huh? Has anyone called Trap a "terrible" player?

On July 31 2021 23:37 tigera6 wrote:I guess you dont understand there are levels to this then? You dont have to be either "carry the whole race" or "being terrible".

On July 31 2021 21:28 tigera6 wrote:


I guess you think Zest, Parting, Zoun are simply just terrible Toss player or something? You know that, you are right, screw that 2 time latest IEM-Finalist, or the Top 4 IEM this year. Hell, lets take winning some 25-30k prize pool tournament over the 2 x runner up of the Wolrd Champision with 500k prize pool. Real expert opinion you got there.

On July 31 2021 23:43 Charoisaur wrote:

They are!!?? Almost everyone considers soO an all-time great

On August 01 2021 00:00 Fanatic-Templar wrote:


You called Zoun, Zest and Stats just terrible players for not winning any Premiers despite decent runs. So this is like how Ty was a terrible player for not winning any premiers in 2018 despite decent runs. Or Innovation for that matter. I'm comparing Trap's carrying to Maru's, why do you suddenly pretend he's an analogy for Ty?





Amazing. From "If you think winning is better than losing, that means you think Zoun, Zest and Stats are simply just terrible Protoss" to "Don't you understand there are levels between carrying your whole race and being a terrible player" in just a single post.

Even you realise your argument was completely absurd. I wish you'd reach these epiphanies before posting.



Possible I've missed it. Link please.

On July 31 2021 08:44 Garbo1 wrote:


Wait, wasn't the Hydra Ling Bane era where Zerg was completely unstoppable vs Protoss??

On August 01 2021 01:28 tigera6 wrote:

I would suggest you to improve your reading skill, or you simply missing the CLEAR AND OBVIOUS sacasm in my post. The point was, YOU acting like Trap was the only one carrying the Toss in the last 2 years

On August 01 2021 01:28 tigera6 wrote:I have not tried to make the comparison of Maru vs Trap in term of how they "carry the race", because that doesnt really matter in my opinion.

On July 30 2021 22:23 Fanatic-Templar wrote:


That's lovely. Trap is the only Protoss to have won a Premier tournament that doesn't have 'NA' on it since Classic went to the military. If he's not 'cut out to be a consistent champion' then Protoss is in deep trouble, because Trap is carrying Protoss harder than Maru ever had to carry Terran.

On July 30 2021 23:34 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
2: You can clearly see that the Premiers Maru won in 2018 were worth a lot more money than the ones Trap wins in 2020-2021. First place in WESG alone was worth 200,000$, which is more than half what the entire Protoss race has won in the entirety of 2021. No shit Maru's share of prize money is "absurdly high". Prize money distribution is not affected by player performance but by tournament organisers. This, incidentally, is why we don't use earnings to gauge performance.

On July 31 2021 02:05 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
Well, in that case, Maru winning his GSLs in 2018 is not much of an achievement, after all GSL is a tournament with almost no foreigners, and in 2018 foreigners outperformed Koreans (using earnings, which is a very good metric). What prestige is there in winning such weak tournaments?

On July 31 2021 02:05 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
How does that indicate Maru carried his race more than Trap? Trap's the only Protoss to have won a premier outside NA since 2019. Without him, Protoss would have won nothing in two years. Almost literally, the last one was Stats' win in the first weekend of August 2019.

On July 31 2021 02:05 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
Certainly. It's the one I used when I brought up the subject in the first place, unsurprisingly enough. Trap is the only Protoss to have won a premier tournament since Trap in August 2019. That's 24 months, and counting since there's still been no non-Trap Protoss champion. Maru was the only Terran to win a premier tournament between Innovation's GSL vs. the World in August 2017 and his WESG in March 2019, which is a bit less than 20 months. Do you disagree that 24 months+ is longer than 20 months?

On July 31 2021 03:24 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
That's certainly a valid way of looking at it. I still say Trap's carrying Protoss harder because as a fan who wants to see Protoss win, I've had to depend on him for longer than Terrans had to depend on Maru, but I understand that not everyone prioritises the same elements here. I'm certainly not the one who went and claimed this to be objective.

On July 31 2021 21:28 tigera6 wrote:
I guess you think Zest, Parting, Zoun are simply just terrible Toss player or something? You know that, you are right, screw that 2 time latest IEM-Finalist, or the Top 4 IEM this year. Hell, lets take winning some 25-30k prize pool tournament over the 2 x runner up of the Wolrd Champision with 500k prize pool. Real expert opinion you got there.

On August 01 2021 02:08 egrimm wrote:

At the beginning, yes. But after some time toss learned to play the game better, hold position zealots behind archons, tech to storm safely etc. Similarly as with adepts all-ins in PvZ, zergs fot much better at defending them.
Also I miss this meta PvZ meta mostly because it was much more enjoyable to play/watch even if it might have been hard to win as toss player.

On August 01 2021 03:10 WombaT wrote:

It’s fluctuated over the years, and is generally a pretty awful matchup, but yeah I would say PvZ was probably harder for the Protoss in that era, but the matches as an observer did have more of a flow to them.

On July 31 2021 22:00 Fanatic-Templar wrote:


Easily. GSL 2021 S2.
You still haven't answered mine though.



The only way this post is even remotely close to coherence is if you're calling Ty a just terrible Terran player. Are you?



I'll start caring about "top 2" when Soo's 6 GSL silvers are given comparable respect to Maru's 4 GSL golds.

On August 01 2021 23:59 Poopi wrote:

I don’t see why we would be comparing soO’s silvers in Code S versus Maru’s wins though. They are the same tournament, obviously winning is better than being second in that case (but top 2 in such a tournament is a good achievement as well, and 6 total is great). I was comparing a top 2 at IEM / world championship to a 1st place in « tier 2 » tournament.

On August 01 2021 02:54 Fanatic-Templar wrote:




I would suggest YOU improve YOUR reading skills. I didn't say Trap was the only one carrying the Toss in the last 2 years, I said that Trap has been carrying Protoss harder than Maru ever did Terran, so it was false to claim that Trap "wasn't cut out to be a consistent champion" and that that was the reason Protoss had poor results. Look:



Maybe you just missed it? You know, despite replying to it? I wonder if this comparison ever comes up again?











Oh look, it comes up consistently. So if you're not interested in how Trap and Maru compare as far as "carrying the race", then what the hell are you even doing here? This was an ongoing argument that YOU decided to jump into. Did your reading comprehension not allow you to figure out what you were talking about before you decided to share your idiotic, aggressive and condescending opinion? Look at this:



This is your response to a question asking for a Premier won by a non-Trap Protoss. "I guess you just think not winning Premier tournaments makes someone just terrible", "Screw that finalist and top 4 player", "Real expert opinion you got there". You need to invent idiotic arguments and pretend I'm the one claiming them because you've got literally nothing of substance to contribute. Real aggressive there for someone who isn't even interested in the argument taking place. And so bad you'd denounce that "Guess Zest, Parting and Zoun are simply just terrible Toss" line in your very next post.

I've no interest in inane histrionics so if you want to continue this argument, try making a better response.

On August 01 2021 16:43 egrimm wrote:

I must say that I actually always kind of liked PvZ more than rest of community. I like the ebb and flow of tech switches and build orders. My favorite part was early game openings in Hots with plethora of different builds both races could go for. Fast forge expand, gate expand, nexus forge, nexus gate, 6pool, 9pool etc.
I loved to watch how they clashed, remember Life vs sOs finals?
But yeah, matchup right now is not pretty mostly because of army compositions both races aim for and how these armies interact with each other. Carrier/void leads to death balls and slows the game, whereas queen, viper, lurker is insanely efficient to a point the oponent just stops attacking altogether and you have a stalemate.
Hopefully something changes for a better with or without the patch.

On August 01 2021 02:54 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
I've no interest in inane histrionics so if you want to continue this argument, try making a better response.

On August 02 2021 10:56 tigera6 wrote:

Dude, your points are all over the place. You was claiming Trap as the ONLY one carrying Protoss race for the last 2 years, now you talked your way out of it? And then you saying ME trashing all Protoss players? WTF? Clearly I stated that it was a SACASTIC remark, and you still accusing me over it? Are you serious?
My whole point was, Protoss is not a trash race, and they have been doing fairly well in the last 2 years, and there are MORE than just Trap that doing work for the race. If you have no problem with that, then I am good.
And I was NOT the one who bring up Trap vs Maru, it was someone else in the forum, please reply to the correct person with the correct point, you are losing basic debate point and still getting clearly defensive over it.

On August 02 2021 20:02 WombaT wrote:

I feel HoTS and WoL had the better eco flow to them, but Protoss lacked some of the map control units they have in Legacy, and Zerg had some lategame comps Protoss didn’t have the tools to break, by and large.

Now the eco flow is worse for this matchup, but Protoss does have more tools. Outside of dedicated cheese Zerg get up to 3 base saturation most games and there’s not much of an early game, then we’re into a dynamic of Protoss does a timing push that works or it doesn’t, or Zerg do some kind of all-in bust on the third that either works or it doesn’t, or both races turtle to passive lategame comps. I think those changes affected PvZ the most, and coincidentally I think the skipping of much of the early game in Legacy probably hurt a player like sOs more than most as he did a lot of clever work there.

There are certainly interesting aspects to it, but to me they always feel more intriguing than enthralling as they’re so often mindgames and gambles that succeed or fail not largely based on if they’re picked up on, but almost entirely.

But hey, it’s an asymmetric game and it’s one matchup at the end of the day. Having races that are very distinct is part of the game’s appeal, I just don’t think the characteristics of Zerg and Protoss mesh all that well when they’re put head-to-head

On August 03 2021 02:50 Agh wrote:
poor rogue, looses out on $4000 and 200 points because of rng.