On March 17 2019 22:26 CoupdeBoule wrote: Happy Scarlett ended up losing - although overall I would say Im a fan of Scarlett but holy cow not accepting the draw in game one when Scarlett had no Corruptors is one of the most disgraceful moments of unsportmanship that comes to mind - very disappointing
So what happened with this draw I couldn’t follow?
Maru left because he apparently forgot that you can lift buildings and fly to the corner resulting in a loss instead of a draw.
How is that bad sportsmanship by Scarlett then ?__? :D
just uninformed people trolling/stoking drama. no one did anything wrong. there's just a lot of confusion because apparently both scarlett and maru didn't think about the possibility of floating buildings even though the game had been paused to discuss a draw. it seems incredible, but there you go.
the suggestion that scarlett did something dishonorable is insane trolling - the fact that she won and maru left proves she was in the right to play the game out. if maru had realized he could get a draw, he could have simply floated the buildings, at which point she certainly would have accepted it.
in starcraft it's not enough that your units (OR buildings) can win the game, you have to actually control them and win it yourself. saying maru should get a free draw without floating his buildings is like saying he should get free wins for building a bigger army. you have to execute every minute of this game.
Speaking of uninformed, the fact that you consider it a free draw for Maru in a situation where Scarlett has no theoretical way to win says everything about you.
Explain your point then. Why the hell would Scarlett offer up a draw in that situation?
Scarlett had no way of winning (no Corruptors vs flying buildings) - only draw or loss was an option in that position. Maru after 5-10 min of no action and scanning the map pauses and offers draw. Scarlett for whatever reason declines.
Maru offered a draw there? That changes the situation. Still stupid of Maru to not just talk to admin that scarlett cant win, but weird that Scarlett denies it in that case.
On March 17 2019 22:26 CoupdeBoule wrote: Happy Scarlett ended up losing - although overall I would say Im a fan of Scarlett but holy cow not accepting the draw in game one when Scarlett had no Corruptors is one of the most disgraceful moments of unsportmanship that comes to mind - very disappointing
So what happened with this draw I couldn’t follow?
Maru left because he apparently forgot that you can lift buildings and fly to the corner resulting in a loss instead of a draw.
How is that bad sportsmanship by Scarlett then ?__? :D
just uninformed people trolling/stoking drama. no one did anything wrong. there's just a lot of confusion because apparently both scarlett and maru didn't think about the possibility of floating buildings even though the game had been paused to discuss a draw. it seems incredible, but there you go.
the suggestion that scarlett did something dishonorable is insane trolling - the fact that she won and maru left proves she was in the right to play the game out. if maru had realized he could get a draw, he could have simply floated the buildings, at which point she certainly would have accepted it.
in starcraft it's not enough that your units (OR buildings) can win the game, you have to actually control them and win it yourself. saying maru should get a free draw without floating his buildings is like saying he should get free wins for building a bigger army. you have to execute every minute of this game.
Speaking of uninformed, the fact that you consider it a free draw for Maru in a situation where Scarlett has no theoretical way to win says everything about you.
Explain your point then. Why the hell would Scarlett offer up a draw in that situation?
Scarlett had no way of winning (no Corruptors vs flying buildings) - only draw or loss was an option in that position. Maru after 5-10 min of no action and scanning the map pauses and offers draw. Scarlett for whatever reason declines.
Maru offered a draw there? That changes the situation. Still stupid of Maru to not just talk to admin that scarlett cant win, but weird that Scarlett denies it in that case.
On March 17 2019 22:26 CoupdeBoule wrote: Happy Scarlett ended up losing - although overall I would say Im a fan of Scarlett but holy cow not accepting the draw in game one when Scarlett had no Corruptors is one of the most disgraceful moments of unsportmanship that comes to mind - very disappointing
So what happened with this draw I couldn’t follow?
Maru left because he apparently forgot that you can lift buildings and fly to the corner resulting in a loss instead of a draw.
How is that bad sportsmanship by Scarlett then ?__? :D
just uninformed people trolling/stoking drama. no one did anything wrong. there's just a lot of confusion because apparently both scarlett and maru didn't think about the possibility of floating buildings even though the game had been paused to discuss a draw. it seems incredible, but there you go.
the suggestion that scarlett did something dishonorable is insane trolling - the fact that she won and maru left proves she was in the right to play the game out. if maru had realized he could get a draw, he could have simply floated the buildings, at which point she certainly would have accepted it.
in starcraft it's not enough that your units (OR buildings) can win the game, you have to actually control them and win it yourself. saying maru should get a free draw without floating his buildings is like saying he should get free wins for building a bigger army. you have to execute every minute of this game.
Speaking of uninformed, the fact that you consider it a free draw for Maru in a situation where Scarlett has no theoretical way to win says everything about you.
Explain your point then. Why the hell would Scarlett offer up a draw in that situation?
Scarlett had no way of winning (no Corruptors vs flying buildings) - only draw or loss was an option in that position. Maru after 5-10 min of no action and scanning the map pauses and offers draw. Scarlett for whatever reason declines.
Maru offered a draw there? That changes the situation. Still stupid of Maru to not just talk to admin that scarlett cant win, but weird that Scarlett denies it in that case.
weird indeed. Maru did talk to admin also.
Well then that's just bad admining and a dubious decision by Scarlett.
On March 17 2019 23:40 Poopi wrote: [quote] So what happened with this draw I couldn’t follow?
Maru left because he apparently forgot that you can lift buildings and fly to the corner resulting in a loss instead of a draw.
How is that bad sportsmanship by Scarlett then ?__? :D
just uninformed people trolling/stoking drama. no one did anything wrong. there's just a lot of confusion because apparently both scarlett and maru didn't think about the possibility of floating buildings even though the game had been paused to discuss a draw. it seems incredible, but there you go.
the suggestion that scarlett did something dishonorable is insane trolling - the fact that she won and maru left proves she was in the right to play the game out. if maru had realized he could get a draw, he could have simply floated the buildings, at which point she certainly would have accepted it.
in starcraft it's not enough that your units (OR buildings) can win the game, you have to actually control them and win it yourself. saying maru should get a free draw without floating his buildings is like saying he should get free wins for building a bigger army. you have to execute every minute of this game.
Speaking of uninformed, the fact that you consider it a free draw for Maru in a situation where Scarlett has no theoretical way to win says everything about you.
Explain your point then. Why the hell would Scarlett offer up a draw in that situation?
Scarlett had no way of winning (no Corruptors vs flying buildings) - only draw or loss was an option in that position. Maru after 5-10 min of no action and scanning the map pauses and offers draw. Scarlett for whatever reason declines.
Maru offered a draw there? That changes the situation. Still stupid of Maru to not just talk to admin that scarlett cant win, but weird that Scarlett denies it in that case.
weird indeed. Maru did talk to admin also.
Well then that's just bad admining and a dubious decision by Scarlett.
Be careful about voicing that opinion. The bronze-leaguers will call you a troll ...
On March 17 2019 21:38 Xain0n wrote: Wp to Inno, he's looking more like the GOAT to me now that he won a Premier tournament in 2019; he should be #4 or #3 in the top earnings list, Serral is now #2 while Maru is still #1.
On the other hand, how can you guys be so corrosive and biased every time after every kind of result Serral has? He wins, salty; he loses, salty. Losing 3-4 in his worst matchup didn't really made him look especially weak, especially after he showed he CAN actually beat Terran in the lategame. He may have actually tricked himself today into trying to allin at least one game more than necessary after his losses at IEM; no sweep happened, nobody was destroyed, Inno and Serral played seven games out of seven and the one who was better today took the trophy, as simple as that.
Inno was not perfect yet he looked calm and convincing, he's not at his all time apex but he definitely looks like a top Terran again; on the other hand, did you actually look at Serral? Not even mentioning he looked sick(we knew that ten days ago already), have you seen that g6 broodlord engagement? Or another casual amove(after g2's vs soO) into losing roaches for free in g7? How sloppy he was at surrounding a tank with lings in a previous game? His overall indecisiveness? Did you really see that player last year? I didn't, you delude yourself if you think Serral is nowhere close to his best shape.
TvZ isn't even the problem, here; it is Serral's worst matchup and there is a lack of serious opponents on EU, that's true. Recently, tho, Serral lost as well in ZvZ against soO(even if he still looks good in the matchup) and against Neeb in PvZ(he loooked even more mortal at that matchup judging by his not exciting series against MaNa).
It simply appears Serral in 2019 has regressed as a player, downscaling from nigh unbeatable godlike global dominator to "just" a top player in a stacked pack of high level koreans. He still seems very consistent and strong enough to potentially win one international tournament(one game isn't that much, don't you agree?) but he's downright more mortal and beatable. It would be very hard to pick a "best" player in the world right now: soO won IEM then went out of Code S, Inno did bad at IEM before winning WESG, Maru disappointed and it's not in contention for the title atm, Serral did not bad but failed to secure a top spot; sc2 in 2019 is looking fairly exciting and uncertain.
As a Serral fan, I'd like to nevertheless thank him and wish him to rest and prepare well; I'm still convinced he has the potential to absolutely crush the scene again were him to to get his best shape back. I'd love to see him dominate but defeats happen; what is effectively a slump for him still involves top placements in the hardest tournaments.
or it's just that other players caught up/figured him out? If you play vs better opponents you look worse yourself.
Are you convinced of that? He has been recently making errors even when he was not under critical pressure(amove into gg...) along with those forced by hard situations(Ragnarok's baneling), compare that to his flawless defenses or crisp decision making he had the last year.
I'd have no problems to admit there is someone playing way better than Serral who makes him look not as good but that's not what I see in all honesty; coming to these last games, did it seem to you Inno had flawless mechanics and execution inducing Serral to play worse than we are used to see from him?
Yes yes no one can compare to Serral. If he loses, he is either sick, tired, not focused enough, makes mistakes or he let's the opponent win. He doesn't lose because someone outplayed him no that can never happen. Serral is untouchable. You are officially the most deluded Sc2 fan ever, congrats!
No man, I'm sorry! With all my best efforts, I would never be able to reach the level of bias and delusion you can casually throw out without trying at all. So many "outplays" and "crushing defeats" in 4-3 and 3-2 series, you are perfectly right, not to mention Olimoleagues being officially recognized as korean equivalent of WCS.
Inno did well today, he played the series better than Serral and won deservingly; however, he did not make Serral look bad because of his superiority. Serral didn't even look bad, just worse than his best shape ,consistently with his level of play this March.
I never said Olimoleagues were Korean equivalent of WCS, I would never diminish Olimoleagues that much. They are much harder to win with better quality players Inno beat Serral 2x in a row and was the better player both times. We can officially say he is just better in the matchup and always was tbh. its Inno one of the contenders for the goat. Serral will never catch up to him in terms of success as he stated he is not interested in GSL (which is fine he probably just wants to win as much money as he can in region with low competition instead of risking it for just a potential prestige. If I was as good as him would probably do the same)
I have to correct myself, you are not simply biased, you are bias embodied; keep living in 2014, please.
Inno lost the previous two series he played against Serral, we can officially say that… he won the most recent two; how could a non korean who's ZvT is weak take down Innovation twice(including a blasphemous 3-0 sweep) in the past?
Inno is indeed one of the contenders for the GOAT, more than ever after WESG, his tenth premier title; still, you would like to compare now the career of one ex KeSpa progamer who switched to Sc2 almost seven years old to the one a soon to be 21 year old finnish prodigy who dedicated himself to full time Starcraft less than two years ago? It's way too early, we may have seen the best of Serral already just as we could watch him win three consecutive BlizzCon.
Serral never said he is not interested in Code S, he may go to Korea in the future; WCS pays less than GSL and both are almost irrelevant in term of prizes when compared to the international tournaments. If one would be following money those would be the events to win; moreover, it's not like Serral didn't win a huge sum already. Clearly the harder competition is not the problem, it must be hard to understand Serral prefers to live in Finland with his parents at the moment instead of spending months 7000 kms away from home for a single tournament.
On March 17 2019 23:40 Poopi wrote: [quote] So what happened with this draw I couldn’t follow?
Maru left because he apparently forgot that you can lift buildings and fly to the corner resulting in a loss instead of a draw.
How is that bad sportsmanship by Scarlett then ?__? :D
just uninformed people trolling/stoking drama. no one did anything wrong. there's just a lot of confusion because apparently both scarlett and maru didn't think about the possibility of floating buildings even though the game had been paused to discuss a draw. it seems incredible, but there you go.
the suggestion that scarlett did something dishonorable is insane trolling - the fact that she won and maru left proves she was in the right to play the game out. if maru had realized he could get a draw, he could have simply floated the buildings, at which point she certainly would have accepted it.
in starcraft it's not enough that your units (OR buildings) can win the game, you have to actually control them and win it yourself. saying maru should get a free draw without floating his buildings is like saying he should get free wins for building a bigger army. you have to execute every minute of this game.
Speaking of uninformed, the fact that you consider it a free draw for Maru in a situation where Scarlett has no theoretical way to win says everything about you.
Explain your point then. Why the hell would Scarlett offer up a draw in that situation?
Scarlett had no way of winning (no Corruptors vs flying buildings) - only draw or loss was an option in that position. Maru after 5-10 min of no action and scanning the map pauses and offers draw. Scarlett for whatever reason declines.
Maru offered a draw there? That changes the situation. Still stupid of Maru to not just talk to admin that scarlett cant win, but weird that Scarlett denies it in that case.
weird indeed. Maru did talk to admin also.
Well then that's just bad admining and a dubious decision by Scarlett.
I guess Scarlett just forgot Maru could fly his buildings in a corner same as Maru forgot it.
Maru left because he apparently forgot that you can lift buildings and fly to the corner resulting in a loss instead of a draw.
How is that bad sportsmanship by Scarlett then ?__? :D
just uninformed people trolling/stoking drama. no one did anything wrong. there's just a lot of confusion because apparently both scarlett and maru didn't think about the possibility of floating buildings even though the game had been paused to discuss a draw. it seems incredible, but there you go.
the suggestion that scarlett did something dishonorable is insane trolling - the fact that she won and maru left proves she was in the right to play the game out. if maru had realized he could get a draw, he could have simply floated the buildings, at which point she certainly would have accepted it.
in starcraft it's not enough that your units (OR buildings) can win the game, you have to actually control them and win it yourself. saying maru should get a free draw without floating his buildings is like saying he should get free wins for building a bigger army. you have to execute every minute of this game.
Speaking of uninformed, the fact that you consider it a free draw for Maru in a situation where Scarlett has no theoretical way to win says everything about you.
Explain your point then. Why the hell would Scarlett offer up a draw in that situation?
Scarlett had no way of winning (no Corruptors vs flying buildings) - only draw or loss was an option in that position. Maru after 5-10 min of no action and scanning the map pauses and offers draw. Scarlett for whatever reason declines.
Maru offered a draw there? That changes the situation. Still stupid of Maru to not just talk to admin that scarlett cant win, but weird that Scarlett denies it in that case.
weird indeed. Maru did talk to admin also.
Well then that's just bad admining and a dubious decision by Scarlett.
I guess Scarlett just forgot Maru could fly his buildings in a corner same as Maru forgot it.
Well if she knew it was a point base decision in case of a draw you keep playing and killing stuff until there is nothinh to do right? No reason to take the draw early
On March 17 2019 21:38 Xain0n wrote: Wp to Inno, he's looking more like the GOAT to me now that he won a Premier tournament in 2019; he should be #4 or #3 in the top earnings list, Serral is now #2 while Maru is still #1.
On the other hand, how can you guys be so corrosive and biased every time after every kind of result Serral has? He wins, salty; he loses, salty. Losing 3-4 in his worst matchup didn't really made him look especially weak, especially after he showed he CAN actually beat Terran in the lategame. He may have actually tricked himself today into trying to allin at least one game more than necessary after his losses at IEM; no sweep happened, nobody was destroyed, Inno and Serral played seven games out of seven and the one who was better today took the trophy, as simple as that.
Inno was not perfect yet he looked calm and convincing, he's not at his all time apex but he definitely looks like a top Terran again; on the other hand, did you actually look at Serral? Not even mentioning he looked sick(we knew that ten days ago already), have you seen that g6 broodlord engagement? Or another casual amove(after g2's vs soO) into losing roaches for free in g7? How sloppy he was at surrounding a tank with lings in a previous game? His overall indecisiveness? Did you really see that player last year? I didn't, you delude yourself if you think Serral is nowhere close to his best shape.
TvZ isn't even the problem, here; it is Serral's worst matchup and there is a lack of serious opponents on EU, that's true. Recently, tho, Serral lost as well in ZvZ against soO(even if he still looks good in the matchup) and against Neeb in PvZ(he loooked even more mortal at that matchup judging by his not exciting series against MaNa).
It simply appears Serral in 2019 has regressed as a player, downscaling from nigh unbeatable godlike global dominator to "just" a top player in a stacked pack of high level koreans. He still seems very consistent and strong enough to potentially win one international tournament(one game isn't that much, don't you agree?) but he's downright more mortal and beatable. It would be very hard to pick a "best" player in the world right now: soO won IEM then went out of Code S, Inno did bad at IEM before winning WESG, Maru disappointed and it's not in contention for the title atm, Serral did not bad but failed to secure a top spot; sc2 in 2019 is looking fairly exciting and uncertain.
As a Serral fan, I'd like to nevertheless thank him and wish him to rest and prepare well; I'm still convinced he has the potential to absolutely crush the scene again were him to to get his best shape back. I'd love to see him dominate but defeats happen; what is effectively a slump for him still involves top placements in the hardest tournaments.
or it's just that other players caught up/figured him out? If you play vs better opponents you look worse yourself.
Are you convinced of that? He has been recently making errors even when he was not under critical pressure(amove into gg...) along with those forced by hard situations(Ragnarok's baneling), compare that to his flawless defenses or crisp decision making he had the last year.
I'd have no problems to admit there is someone playing way better than Serral who makes him look not as good but that's not what I see in all honesty; coming to these last games, did it seem to you Inno had flawless mechanics and execution inducing Serral to play worse than we are used to see from him?
He didn’t have perfect series last year either, he had a bunch of close series that really could have gone either way
Well his 14-3 run at BlizzCon is the best ever and he was up 3-0 on Stats in the finals, that kind of qualifies for an almost flawless run.
I'm not speaking of dropping single maps in any of case, that can always happen in case of bo losses/unexpected strats; Serral was vulnerable between the first and second remax even at his top shape while looking unbeatable in both early and late game, he could lose games as he never really had the attitude of closing out series with a perfect scores dropping maps in every single one of his premier finals(even against Has or Mana).
What I am speaking of is the lack of gamebreaking errors and the incredibly solid decision making Serral had and seem to lacking as for now, he is sloppier with his mechanics too but those still shine in some games.
pretty sure I can point out similar mistakes in any of the maps he lost last year (throwing waves of low-tier Zerg armies into Stats' meatgrinder?). they just aren't as memorable because he still ended up winning the series
So, you are convinced this version of Innovation was the strongest opponent Serral ever met and that's entirely why he lost? As were soO and Neeb?
No? as already said he wasn't totally invincible last year either and had multiple close series that could have gone either way (vs Scarlett, Reynor, Stats, TaeJa and Inno himself). Now those games just happen to fall in favor of Serral's opponents.
Then you think Serral this March is playing approximately as good as he was at the end of 2018 and it just happened him to lose even series the same way he was winning them before?
I think the consistency Serral had in winning decisive games in 2018 wasn't just a product of fate; moreover, the 0-2 series against Neeb at WESG wasn't close at all, unlike any offline game Serral played after Nation Wars last year.
None of the games you listed took place at BlizzCon, where Serral showed us his very best shape.
Serral's ZvZ was shaky at Montreal, you forgot to list Lambo who, as well, took him to game 5.
The games against TaeJa and Inno took place at HSC where every Zerg was struggling hard against Terran, Serral lost most of these trying to figure out how ineffective Ultras were at the time despite their supposed gamechanging buff; in that regard, I can point out Serral's decision making was sharper than today's as he managed to eventually switch to Broodlords in the later games against Inno(just as he abandoned Swarmhosts against Stats at BlizzCon after having lost two consecutive games usting that strat), unlike he did today when he got stuck on that push which had already failed more than once.
The series against Stats at GSL vs the World actually responds to your criteria as Serral was in very good shape judging from his play but that's more of a testament to how incredibly undervalued Stats is; he looked incredibly solid that weekend, he was on par with Serral at delivering us great Starcraft, both could have rightfully claimed the title. Maru's and Stats' best form in 2018 severely impressed me, I haven't seen anyone playing as well this year, yet.
Thus said, I have no intention of underselling Innovation or soO who took out Serral in relevant series and both went on to win deservingly the tournaments where it happened, playing quite well; it's just that I genuinely think this year Serral hasn't been playing up to his previous standards. Observing the games, I am convinced a Serral in good shape would have defeated both of them; that's my opinion, of course, but I don't think my predilection for Serral is blinding me in this case.
I'm not sure if we'll ever see Serral as good as he was during his period of dominance; for sure, he needs a better form in order to defeat top koreans on a regular basis.
Well, if you compare him to his blizzcon form only than you may be right (although he didn't play any ZvTs there) but then I could say as well "if Inno played in his form of GSL vs the world 2017 he'd never lose". That's really a worthless thing to say because it just doesn't matter and can't be proved anyway.
On March 18 2019 00:53 Luolis wrote: [quote] How is that bad sportsmanship by Scarlett then ?__? :D
just uninformed people trolling/stoking drama. no one did anything wrong. there's just a lot of confusion because apparently both scarlett and maru didn't think about the possibility of floating buildings even though the game had been paused to discuss a draw. it seems incredible, but there you go.
the suggestion that scarlett did something dishonorable is insane trolling - the fact that she won and maru left proves she was in the right to play the game out. if maru had realized he could get a draw, he could have simply floated the buildings, at which point she certainly would have accepted it.
in starcraft it's not enough that your units (OR buildings) can win the game, you have to actually control them and win it yourself. saying maru should get a free draw without floating his buildings is like saying he should get free wins for building a bigger army. you have to execute every minute of this game.
Speaking of uninformed, the fact that you consider it a free draw for Maru in a situation where Scarlett has no theoretical way to win says everything about you.
Explain your point then. Why the hell would Scarlett offer up a draw in that situation?
Scarlett had no way of winning (no Corruptors vs flying buildings) - only draw or loss was an option in that position. Maru after 5-10 min of no action and scanning the map pauses and offers draw. Scarlett for whatever reason declines.
Maru offered a draw there? That changes the situation. Still stupid of Maru to not just talk to admin that scarlett cant win, but weird that Scarlett denies it in that case.
weird indeed. Maru did talk to admin also.
Well then that's just bad admining and a dubious decision by Scarlett.
I guess Scarlett just forgot Maru could fly his buildings in a corner same as Maru forgot it.
Well if she knew it was a point base decision in case of a draw you keep playing and killing stuff until there is nothinh to do right? No reason to take the draw early
Yeah even if she knew it wouldn't be bad sportsmanship imo. I guess her typing "I accept draw if I can't kill planetary" could be interpreted as trying to confuse Maru but that seems like a long shot really.
Maru left because he apparently forgot that you can lift buildings and fly to the corner resulting in a loss instead of a draw.
How is that bad sportsmanship by Scarlett then ?__? :D
just uninformed people trolling/stoking drama. no one did anything wrong. there's just a lot of confusion because apparently both scarlett and maru didn't think about the possibility of floating buildings even though the game had been paused to discuss a draw. it seems incredible, but there you go.
the suggestion that scarlett did something dishonorable is insane trolling - the fact that she won and maru left proves she was in the right to play the game out. if maru had realized he could get a draw, he could have simply floated the buildings, at which point she certainly would have accepted it.
in starcraft it's not enough that your units (OR buildings) can win the game, you have to actually control them and win it yourself. saying maru should get a free draw without floating his buildings is like saying he should get free wins for building a bigger army. you have to execute every minute of this game.
Speaking of uninformed, the fact that you consider it a free draw for Maru in a situation where Scarlett has no theoretical way to win says everything about you.
Explain your point then. Why the hell would Scarlett offer up a draw in that situation?
Scarlett had no way of winning (no Corruptors vs flying buildings) - only draw or loss was an option in that position. Maru after 5-10 min of no action and scanning the map pauses and offers draw. Scarlett for whatever reason declines.
Maru offered a draw there? That changes the situation. Still stupid of Maru to not just talk to admin that scarlett cant win, but weird that Scarlett denies it in that case.
weird indeed. Maru did talk to admin also.
Well then that's just bad admining and a dubious decision by Scarlett.
I guess Scarlett just forgot Maru could fly his buildings in a corner same as Maru forgot it.
I refuse to believe that a player on Marus level would simply "forget" about Terrans natural draw mechanic. Thats just incomprehensible
Don't like how some people are saying Scarlett had poor sportsmanship. We should take them for their word that they forgot it was possible to lift buildings. It sounds silly but it's possible. At least Maru still won at the end of the day. Would've been painful otherwise lol.
On March 18 2019 00:53 Luolis wrote: [quote] How is that bad sportsmanship by Scarlett then ?__? :D
just uninformed people trolling/stoking drama. no one did anything wrong. there's just a lot of confusion because apparently both scarlett and maru didn't think about the possibility of floating buildings even though the game had been paused to discuss a draw. it seems incredible, but there you go.
the suggestion that scarlett did something dishonorable is insane trolling - the fact that she won and maru left proves she was in the right to play the game out. if maru had realized he could get a draw, he could have simply floated the buildings, at which point she certainly would have accepted it.
in starcraft it's not enough that your units (OR buildings) can win the game, you have to actually control them and win it yourself. saying maru should get a free draw without floating his buildings is like saying he should get free wins for building a bigger army. you have to execute every minute of this game.
Speaking of uninformed, the fact that you consider it a free draw for Maru in a situation where Scarlett has no theoretical way to win says everything about you.
Explain your point then. Why the hell would Scarlett offer up a draw in that situation?
Scarlett had no way of winning (no Corruptors vs flying buildings) - only draw or loss was an option in that position. Maru after 5-10 min of no action and scanning the map pauses and offers draw. Scarlett for whatever reason declines.
Maru offered a draw there? That changes the situation. Still stupid of Maru to not just talk to admin that scarlett cant win, but weird that Scarlett denies it in that case.
weird indeed. Maru did talk to admin also.
Well then that's just bad admining and a dubious decision by Scarlett.
I guess Scarlett just forgot Maru could fly his buildings in a corner same as Maru forgot it.
I refuse to believe that a player on Marus level would simply "forget" about Terrans natural draw mechanic. Thats just incomprehensible
Its pretty mentally exhausting to play an hour+game, in the moment he easily could have frustratingly gg'ed out.
On March 17 2019 21:38 Xain0n wrote: Wp to Inno, he's looking more like the GOAT to me now that he won a Premier tournament in 2019; he should be #4 or #3 in the top earnings list, Serral is now #2 while Maru is still #1.
On the other hand, how can you guys be so corrosive and biased every time after every kind of result Serral has? He wins, salty; he loses, salty. Losing 3-4 in his worst matchup didn't really made him look especially weak, especially after he showed he CAN actually beat Terran in the lategame. He may have actually tricked himself today into trying to allin at least one game more than necessary after his losses at IEM; no sweep happened, nobody was destroyed, Inno and Serral played seven games out of seven and the one who was better today took the trophy, as simple as that.
Inno was not perfect yet he looked calm and convincing, he's not at his all time apex but he definitely looks like a top Terran again; on the other hand, did you actually look at Serral? Not even mentioning he looked sick(we knew that ten days ago already), have you seen that g6 broodlord engagement? Or another casual amove(after g2's vs soO) into losing roaches for free in g7? How sloppy he was at surrounding a tank with lings in a previous game? His overall indecisiveness? Did you really see that player last year? I didn't, you delude yourself if you think Serral is nowhere close to his best shape.
TvZ isn't even the problem, here; it is Serral's worst matchup and there is a lack of serious opponents on EU, that's true. Recently, tho, Serral lost as well in ZvZ against soO(even if he still looks good in the matchup) and against Neeb in PvZ(he loooked even more mortal at that matchup judging by his not exciting series against MaNa).
It simply appears Serral in 2019 has regressed as a player, downscaling from nigh unbeatable godlike global dominator to "just" a top player in a stacked pack of high level koreans. He still seems very consistent and strong enough to potentially win one international tournament(one game isn't that much, don't you agree?) but he's downright more mortal and beatable. It would be very hard to pick a "best" player in the world right now: soO won IEM then went out of Code S, Inno did bad at IEM before winning WESG, Maru disappointed and it's not in contention for the title atm, Serral did not bad but failed to secure a top spot; sc2 in 2019 is looking fairly exciting and uncertain.
As a Serral fan, I'd like to nevertheless thank him and wish him to rest and prepare well; I'm still convinced he has the potential to absolutely crush the scene again were him to to get his best shape back. I'd love to see him dominate but defeats happen; what is effectively a slump for him still involves top placements in the hardest tournaments.
or it's just that other players caught up/figured him out? If you play vs better opponents you look worse yourself.
Are you convinced of that? He has been recently making errors even when he was not under critical pressure(amove into gg...) along with those forced by hard situations(Ragnarok's baneling), compare that to his flawless defenses or crisp decision making he had the last year.
I'd have no problems to admit there is someone playing way better than Serral who makes him look not as good but that's not what I see in all honesty; coming to these last games, did it seem to you Inno had flawless mechanics and execution inducing Serral to play worse than we are used to see from him?
He didn’t have perfect series last year either, he had a bunch of close series that really could have gone either way
Well his 14-3 run at BlizzCon is the best ever and he was up 3-0 on Stats in the finals, that kind of qualifies for an almost flawless run.
I'm not speaking of dropping single maps in any of case, that can always happen in case of bo losses/unexpected strats; Serral was vulnerable between the first and second remax even at his top shape while looking unbeatable in both early and late game, he could lose games as he never really had the attitude of closing out series with a perfect scores dropping maps in every single one of his premier finals(even against Has or Mana).
What I am speaking of is the lack of gamebreaking errors and the incredibly solid decision making Serral had and seem to lacking as for now, he is sloppier with his mechanics too but those still shine in some games.
pretty sure I can point out similar mistakes in any of the maps he lost last year (throwing waves of low-tier Zerg armies into Stats' meatgrinder?). they just aren't as memorable because he still ended up winning the series
So, you are convinced this version of Innovation was the strongest opponent Serral ever met and that's entirely why he lost? As were soO and Neeb?
No? as already said he wasn't totally invincible last year either and had multiple close series that could have gone either way (vs Scarlett, Reynor, Stats, TaeJa and Inno himself). Now those games just happen to fall in favor of Serral's opponents.
Then you think Serral this March is playing approximately as good as he was at the end of 2018 and it just happened him to lose even series the same way he was winning them before?
I think the consistency Serral had in winning decisive games in 2018 wasn't just a product of fate; moreover, the 0-2 series against Neeb at WESG wasn't close at all, unlike any offline game Serral played after Nation Wars last year.
None of the games you listed took place at BlizzCon, where Serral showed us his very best shape.
Serral's ZvZ was shaky at Montreal, you forgot to list Lambo who, as well, took him to game 5.
The games against TaeJa and Inno took place at HSC where every Zerg was struggling hard against Terran, Serral lost most of these trying to figure out how ineffective Ultras were at the time despite their supposed gamechanging buff; in that regard, I can point out Serral's decision making was sharper than today's as he managed to eventually switch to Broodlords in the later games against Inno(just as he abandoned Swarmhosts against Stats at BlizzCon after having lost two consecutive games usting that strat), unlike he did today when he got stuck on that push which had already failed more than once.
The series against Stats at GSL vs the World actually responds to your criteria as Serral was in very good shape judging from his play but that's more of a testament to how incredibly undervalued Stats is; he looked incredibly solid that weekend, he was on par with Serral at delivering us great Starcraft, both could have rightfully claimed the title. Maru's and Stats' best form in 2018 severely impressed me, I haven't seen anyone playing as well this year, yet.
Thus said, I have no intention of underselling Innovation or soO who took out Serral in relevant series and both went on to win deservingly the tournaments where it happened, playing quite well; it's just that I genuinely think this year Serral hasn't been playing up to his previous standards. Observing the games, I am convinced a Serral in good shape would have defeated both of them; that's my opinion, of course, but I don't think my predilection for Serral is blinding me in this case.
I'm not sure if we'll ever see Serral as good as he was during his period of dominance; for sure, he needs a better form in order to defeat top koreans on a regular basis.
Well, if you compare him to his blizzcon form only than you may be right (although he didn't play any ZvTs there) but then I could say as well "if Inno played in his form of GSL vs the world 2017 he'd never lose". That's really a worthless thing to say because it just doesn't matter and can't be proved anyway.
Hah, what of the achievements Serral could have or could have not reached in Code S last year? Tons of wasted words, don't you think? I don't remember you being this blunt on that point; not that it's relevant to what we are discussing now, to say the truth.
I won't be offering personal views on possible outcomes doomed to remain pure speculations the next time I'll try to point out any kind of (superficial) analysis as those evidently draw the attention, letting the most relevant parts go unnoticed.
What is exactly your last post meant to answer to? The goal of mine was to prove Serral didn't play at his best in 2019, not that his BlizzCon shape was the best ever seen in Starcraft and could have won every tournament.
On March 18 2019 01:29 brickrd wrote: [quote] just uninformed people trolling/stoking drama. no one did anything wrong. there's just a lot of confusion because apparently both scarlett and maru didn't think about the possibility of floating buildings even though the game had been paused to discuss a draw. it seems incredible, but there you go.
the suggestion that scarlett did something dishonorable is insane trolling - the fact that she won and maru left proves she was in the right to play the game out. if maru had realized he could get a draw, he could have simply floated the buildings, at which point she certainly would have accepted it.
in starcraft it's not enough that your units (OR buildings) can win the game, you have to actually control them and win it yourself. saying maru should get a free draw without floating his buildings is like saying he should get free wins for building a bigger army. you have to execute every minute of this game.
Speaking of uninformed, the fact that you consider it a free draw for Maru in a situation where Scarlett has no theoretical way to win says everything about you.
Explain your point then. Why the hell would Scarlett offer up a draw in that situation?
Scarlett had no way of winning (no Corruptors vs flying buildings) - only draw or loss was an option in that position. Maru after 5-10 min of no action and scanning the map pauses and offers draw. Scarlett for whatever reason declines.
Maru offered a draw there? That changes the situation. Still stupid of Maru to not just talk to admin that scarlett cant win, but weird that Scarlett denies it in that case.
weird indeed. Maru did talk to admin also.
Well then that's just bad admining and a dubious decision by Scarlett.
I guess Scarlett just forgot Maru could fly his buildings in a corner same as Maru forgot it.
I refuse to believe that a player on Marus level would simply "forget" about Terrans natural draw mechanic. Thats just incomprehensible
Its pretty mentally exhausting to play an hour+game, in the moment he easily could have frustratingly gg'ed out.
On March 17 2019 21:43 Charoisaur wrote: [quote] or it's just that other players caught up/figured him out? If you play vs better opponents you look worse yourself.
Are you convinced of that? He has been recently making errors even when he was not under critical pressure(amove into gg...) along with those forced by hard situations(Ragnarok's baneling), compare that to his flawless defenses or crisp decision making he had the last year.
I'd have no problems to admit there is someone playing way better than Serral who makes him look not as good but that's not what I see in all honesty; coming to these last games, did it seem to you Inno had flawless mechanics and execution inducing Serral to play worse than we are used to see from him?
He didn’t have perfect series last year either, he had a bunch of close series that really could have gone either way
Well his 14-3 run at BlizzCon is the best ever and he was up 3-0 on Stats in the finals, that kind of qualifies for an almost flawless run.
I'm not speaking of dropping single maps in any of case, that can always happen in case of bo losses/unexpected strats; Serral was vulnerable between the first and second remax even at his top shape while looking unbeatable in both early and late game, he could lose games as he never really had the attitude of closing out series with a perfect scores dropping maps in every single one of his premier finals(even against Has or Mana).
What I am speaking of is the lack of gamebreaking errors and the incredibly solid decision making Serral had and seem to lacking as for now, he is sloppier with his mechanics too but those still shine in some games.
pretty sure I can point out similar mistakes in any of the maps he lost last year (throwing waves of low-tier Zerg armies into Stats' meatgrinder?). they just aren't as memorable because he still ended up winning the series
So, you are convinced this version of Innovation was the strongest opponent Serral ever met and that's entirely why he lost? As were soO and Neeb?
No? as already said he wasn't totally invincible last year either and had multiple close series that could have gone either way (vs Scarlett, Reynor, Stats, TaeJa and Inno himself). Now those games just happen to fall in favor of Serral's opponents.
Then you think Serral this March is playing approximately as good as he was at the end of 2018 and it just happened him to lose even series the same way he was winning them before?
I think the consistency Serral had in winning decisive games in 2018 wasn't just a product of fate; moreover, the 0-2 series against Neeb at WESG wasn't close at all, unlike any offline game Serral played after Nation Wars last year.
None of the games you listed took place at BlizzCon, where Serral showed us his very best shape.
Serral's ZvZ was shaky at Montreal, you forgot to list Lambo who, as well, took him to game 5.
The games against TaeJa and Inno took place at HSC where every Zerg was struggling hard against Terran, Serral lost most of these trying to figure out how ineffective Ultras were at the time despite their supposed gamechanging buff; in that regard, I can point out Serral's decision making was sharper than today's as he managed to eventually switch to Broodlords in the later games against Inno(just as he abandoned Swarmhosts against Stats at BlizzCon after having lost two consecutive games usting that strat), unlike he did today when he got stuck on that push which had already failed more than once.
The series against Stats at GSL vs the World actually responds to your criteria as Serral was in very good shape judging from his play but that's more of a testament to how incredibly undervalued Stats is; he looked incredibly solid that weekend, he was on par with Serral at delivering us great Starcraft, both could have rightfully claimed the title. Maru's and Stats' best form in 2018 severely impressed me, I haven't seen anyone playing as well this year, yet.
Thus said, I have no intention of underselling Innovation or soO who took out Serral in relevant series and both went on to win deservingly the tournaments where it happened, playing quite well; it's just that I genuinely think this year Serral hasn't been playing up to his previous standards. Observing the games, I am convinced a Serral in good shape would have defeated both of them; that's my opinion, of course, but I don't think my predilection for Serral is blinding me in this case.
I'm not sure if we'll ever see Serral as good as he was during his period of dominance; for sure, he needs a better form in order to defeat top koreans on a regular basis.
Well, if you compare him to his blizzcon form only than you may be right (although he didn't play any ZvTs there) but then I could say as well "if Inno played in his form of GSL vs the world 2017 he'd never lose". That's really a worthless thing to say because it just doesn't matter and can't be proved anyway.
Hah, what of the achievements Serral could have or could have not reached in Code S last year? Tons of wasted words, don't you think? I don't remember you being this blunt on that matter; not that's relevant to what we are discussing now, to say the truth.
I won't be offering personal views on possible outcomes doomed to remain pure speculations the next time I'll try to point out any kind of (superficial) analysis at it evidently keeps the attention from the most relevant parts.
What is exactly your last post meant to answer to? The goal of mine was to prove Serral didn't play at his best in 2019, not that his BlizzCon shape was the best ever seen in Starcraft and could have won every tournament.
Okay if you say Serral didn't play at his absoulute best (judged by his blizzcon form) then I agree with you. No player always plays at his very best every tournament though so I'm not sure what's the point of mentioning that. It just seems like an attempt at diminishing Inno's win.
It's like saying after Serral won GSL vs the world and Blizzcon "well, good for him but Stats clearly wasn't playing at his best (insert his most dominant tournament here as benchmark that Stats underperformed)"
On March 18 2019 01:50 CoupdeBoule wrote: [quote] Speaking of uninformed, the fact that you consider it a free draw for Maru in a situation where Scarlett has no theoretical way to win says everything about you.
Explain your point then. Why the hell would Scarlett offer up a draw in that situation?
Scarlett had no way of winning (no Corruptors vs flying buildings) - only draw or loss was an option in that position. Maru after 5-10 min of no action and scanning the map pauses and offers draw. Scarlett for whatever reason declines.
Maru offered a draw there? That changes the situation. Still stupid of Maru to not just talk to admin that scarlett cant win, but weird that Scarlett denies it in that case.
weird indeed. Maru did talk to admin also.
Well then that's just bad admining and a dubious decision by Scarlett.
I guess Scarlett just forgot Maru could fly his buildings in a corner same as Maru forgot it.
I refuse to believe that a player on Marus level would simply "forget" about Terrans natural draw mechanic. Thats just incomprehensible
Its pretty mentally exhausting to play an hour+game, in the moment he easily could have frustratingly gg'ed out.
It faster to press L then click your corner tho
I get that, but in the moment "fuck this shit I'm out" in frustration isn't this insanely unbelievable circumstance that people make it out to be. Its a huge blunder, but its not unbelievable
Why bash Scarlett? They played 1h+ game, and neither of them thought about a possibility of a draw from terran flying the buildings away. I wouldnt blame anyone for that these things can happen, although if we had to choose who made a mistake in this case its most definitely Maru. I mean, he is the terran player isnt he?
Are you convinced of that? He has been recently making errors even when he was not under critical pressure(amove into gg...) along with those forced by hard situations(Ragnarok's baneling), compare that to his flawless defenses or crisp decision making he had the last year.
I'd have no problems to admit there is someone playing way better than Serral who makes him look not as good but that's not what I see in all honesty; coming to these last games, did it seem to you Inno had flawless mechanics and execution inducing Serral to play worse than we are used to see from him?
He didn’t have perfect series last year either, he had a bunch of close series that really could have gone either way
Well his 14-3 run at BlizzCon is the best ever and he was up 3-0 on Stats in the finals, that kind of qualifies for an almost flawless run.
I'm not speaking of dropping single maps in any of case, that can always happen in case of bo losses/unexpected strats; Serral was vulnerable between the first and second remax even at his top shape while looking unbeatable in both early and late game, he could lose games as he never really had the attitude of closing out series with a perfect scores dropping maps in every single one of his premier finals(even against Has or Mana).
What I am speaking of is the lack of gamebreaking errors and the incredibly solid decision making Serral had and seem to lacking as for now, he is sloppier with his mechanics too but those still shine in some games.
pretty sure I can point out similar mistakes in any of the maps he lost last year (throwing waves of low-tier Zerg armies into Stats' meatgrinder?). they just aren't as memorable because he still ended up winning the series
So, you are convinced this version of Innovation was the strongest opponent Serral ever met and that's entirely why he lost? As were soO and Neeb?
No? as already said he wasn't totally invincible last year either and had multiple close series that could have gone either way (vs Scarlett, Reynor, Stats, TaeJa and Inno himself). Now those games just happen to fall in favor of Serral's opponents.
Then you think Serral this March is playing approximately as good as he was at the end of 2018 and it just happened him to lose even series the same way he was winning them before?
I think the consistency Serral had in winning decisive games in 2018 wasn't just a product of fate; moreover, the 0-2 series against Neeb at WESG wasn't close at all, unlike any offline game Serral played after Nation Wars last year.
None of the games you listed took place at BlizzCon, where Serral showed us his very best shape.
Serral's ZvZ was shaky at Montreal, you forgot to list Lambo who, as well, took him to game 5.
The games against TaeJa and Inno took place at HSC where every Zerg was struggling hard against Terran, Serral lost most of these trying to figure out how ineffective Ultras were at the time despite their supposed gamechanging buff; in that regard, I can point out Serral's decision making was sharper than today's as he managed to eventually switch to Broodlords in the later games against Inno(just as he abandoned Swarmhosts against Stats at BlizzCon after having lost two consecutive games usting that strat), unlike he did today when he got stuck on that push which had already failed more than once.
The series against Stats at GSL vs the World actually responds to your criteria as Serral was in very good shape judging from his play but that's more of a testament to how incredibly undervalued Stats is; he looked incredibly solid that weekend, he was on par with Serral at delivering us great Starcraft, both could have rightfully claimed the title. Maru's and Stats' best form in 2018 severely impressed me, I haven't seen anyone playing as well this year, yet.
Thus said, I have no intention of underselling Innovation or soO who took out Serral in relevant series and both went on to win deservingly the tournaments where it happened, playing quite well; it's just that I genuinely think this year Serral hasn't been playing up to his previous standards. Observing the games, I am convinced a Serral in good shape would have defeated both of them; that's my opinion, of course, but I don't think my predilection for Serral is blinding me in this case.
I'm not sure if we'll ever see Serral as good as he was during his period of dominance; for sure, he needs a better form in order to defeat top koreans on a regular basis.
Well, if you compare him to his blizzcon form only than you may be right (although he didn't play any ZvTs there) but then I could say as well "if Inno played in his form of GSL vs the world 2017 he'd never lose". That's really a worthless thing to say because it just doesn't matter and can't be proved anyway.
Hah, what of the achievements Serral could have or could have not reached in Code S last year? Tons of wasted words, don't you think? I don't remember you being this blunt on that matter; not that's relevant to what we are discussing now, to say the truth.
I won't be offering personal views on possible outcomes doomed to remain pure speculations the next time I'll try to point out any kind of (superficial) analysis at it evidently keeps the attention from the most relevant parts.
What is exactly your last post meant to answer to? The goal of mine was to prove Serral didn't play at his best in 2019, not that his BlizzCon shape was the best ever seen in Starcraft and could have won every tournament.
Okay if you say Serral didn't play at his absoulute best (judged by his blizzcon form) then I agree with you. No player always plays at his very best every tournament though so I'm not sure what's the point of mentioning that. It just seems like an attempt at diminishing Inno's win.
It's like saying after Serral won GSL vs the world and Blizzcon "well, good for him but Stats clearly wasn't playing at his best (insert his most dominant tournament here as benchmark that Stats underperformed)"
It would have been an attempt to diminish Inno's result if I posted this out of the blue, whereas I have been consistently pointing out the quality of Serral's play was inferior since the first day of IEM Serral lost series in every single matchup, not just in ZvT against Inno; not to mention Inno was barely considered a top 3 Terran at the moment , how can saying he deserved to win against the best Zerg in the world(as Serral most likely still is and I pointed out this as well) be considered diminishing his accomplishment?
Stats was playing very well at GSL vs the World, yours would have been a dubious statement at best. If we would attempt to objectively rate Serral's performance by measuring his responsiveness and counting the mistakes he made(especially the fatal missplays) I am fairly sure it would be his current shape isn't on par not even to this very best form(BlizzCon's), but to the average performance Serral displayed during his period of dominance last year.
Honestly asking, do you really not notice any difference in Serral's play?
EPT
