On March 17 2019 22:26 CoupdeBoule wrote: Happy Scarlett ended up losing - although overall I would say Im a fan of Scarlett but holy cow not accepting the draw in game one when Scarlett had no Corruptors is one of the most disgraceful moments of unsportmanship that comes to mind - very disappointing
So what happened with this draw I couldn’t follow?
On March 17 2019 22:26 CoupdeBoule wrote: Happy Scarlett ended up losing - although overall I would say Im a fan of Scarlett but holy cow not accepting the draw in game one when Scarlett had no Corruptors is one of the most disgraceful moments of unsportmanship that comes to mind - very disappointing
So what happened with this draw I couldn’t follow?
Maru left because he apparently forgot that you can lift buildings and fly to the corner resulting in a loss instead of a draw.
On March 17 2019 21:38 Xain0n wrote: Wp to Inno, he's looking more like the GOAT to me now that he won a Premier tournament in 2019; he should be #4 or #3 in the top earnings list, Serral is now #2 while Maru is still #1.
On the other hand, how can you guys be so corrosive and biased every time after every kind of result Serral has? He wins, salty; he loses, salty. Losing 3-4 in his worst matchup didn't really made him look especially weak, especially after he showed he CAN actually beat Terran in the lategame. He may have actually tricked himself today into trying to allin at least one game more than necessary after his losses at IEM; no sweep happened, nobody was destroyed, Inno and Serral played seven games out of seven and the one who was better today took the trophy, as simple as that.
Inno was not perfect yet he looked calm and convincing, he's not at his all time apex but he definitely looks like a top Terran again; on the other hand, did you actually look at Serral? Not even mentioning he looked sick(we knew that ten days ago already), have you seen that g6 broodlord engagement? Or another casual amove(after g2's vs soO) into losing roaches for free in g7? How sloppy he was at surrounding a tank with lings in a previous game? His overall indecisiveness? Did you really see that player last year? I didn't, you delude yourself if you think Serral is nowhere close to his best shape.
TvZ isn't even the problem, here; it is Serral's worst matchup and there is a lack of serious opponents on EU, that's true. Recently, tho, Serral lost as well in ZvZ against soO(even if he still looks good in the matchup) and against Neeb in PvZ(he loooked even more mortal at that matchup judging by his not exciting series against MaNa).
It simply appears Serral in 2019 has regressed as a player, downscaling from nigh unbeatable godlike global dominator to "just" a top player in a stacked pack of high level koreans. He still seems very consistent and strong enough to potentially win one international tournament(one game isn't that much, don't you agree?) but he's downright more mortal and beatable. It would be very hard to pick a "best" player in the world right now: soO won IEM then went out of Code S, Inno did bad at IEM before winning WESG, Maru disappointed and it's not in contention for the title atm, Serral did not bad but failed to secure a top spot; sc2 in 2019 is looking fairly exciting and uncertain.
As a Serral fan, I'd like to nevertheless thank him and wish him to rest and prepare well; I'm still convinced he has the potential to absolutely crush the scene again were him to to get his best shape back. I'd love to see him dominate but defeats happen; what is effectively a slump for him still involves top placements in the hardest tournaments.
or it's just that other players caught up/figured him out? If you play vs better opponents you look worse yourself.
Are you convinced of that? He has been recently making errors even when he was not under critical pressure(amove into gg...) along with those forced by hard situations(Ragnarok's baneling), compare that to his flawless defenses or crisp decision making he had the last year.
I'd have no problems to admit there is someone playing way better than Serral who makes him look not as good but that's not what I see in all honesty; coming to these last games, did it seem to you Inno had flawless mechanics and execution inducing Serral to play worse than we are used to see from him?
Yes yes no one can compare to Serral. If he loses, he is either sick, tired, not focused enough, makes mistakes or he let's the opponent win. He doesn't lose because someone outplayed him no that can never happen. Serral is untouchable. You are officially the most deluded Sc2 fan ever, congrats!
On March 17 2019 23:21 Anc13nt wrote: Great series. I think the Innovation-Serral rivalry will go on to be like Dark-Stats rivalry. They are so evenly matched.
Also, I think people underrate Serral's ZvT. I would say it's 3rd best in the world and sometimes 2nd best (occasionally Rogue's ZvT looks weak for some reason but usually he plays ZvT really well). I agree he doesn't look like 100% in form like late 2018 but he still looks like he's at least operating at 90% imo.
Serral-Stats rivalry is also good although Stats didn't manage to beat Serral lately
gg for Innovation though His play on game 7 is something that caught Serral off guard He showed his strong mentality and experience there
I don't think Inno win because of Serral is bad player... Please just appreciate Inno's victory more instead of criticizing Serral's performance in this tournament
On March 17 2019 21:38 Xain0n wrote: Wp to Inno, he's looking more like the GOAT to me now that he won a Premier tournament in 2019; he should be #4 or #3 in the top earnings list, Serral is now #2 while Maru is still #1.
On the other hand, how can you guys be so corrosive and biased every time after every kind of result Serral has? He wins, salty; he loses, salty. Losing 3-4 in his worst matchup didn't really made him look especially weak, especially after he showed he CAN actually beat Terran in the lategame. He may have actually tricked himself today into trying to allin at least one game more than necessary after his losses at IEM; no sweep happened, nobody was destroyed, Inno and Serral played seven games out of seven and the one who was better today took the trophy, as simple as that.
Inno was not perfect yet he looked calm and convincing, he's not at his all time apex but he definitely looks like a top Terran again; on the other hand, did you actually look at Serral? Not even mentioning he looked sick(we knew that ten days ago already), have you seen that g6 broodlord engagement? Or another casual amove(after g2's vs soO) into losing roaches for free in g7? How sloppy he was at surrounding a tank with lings in a previous game? His overall indecisiveness? Did you really see that player last year? I didn't, you delude yourself if you think Serral is nowhere close to his best shape.
TvZ isn't even the problem, here; it is Serral's worst matchup and there is a lack of serious opponents on EU, that's true. Recently, tho, Serral lost as well in ZvZ against soO(even if he still looks good in the matchup) and against Neeb in PvZ(he loooked even more mortal at that matchup judging by his not exciting series against MaNa).
It simply appears Serral in 2019 has regressed as a player, downscaling from nigh unbeatable godlike global dominator to "just" a top player in a stacked pack of high level koreans. He still seems very consistent and strong enough to potentially win one international tournament(one game isn't that much, don't you agree?) but he's downright more mortal and beatable. It would be very hard to pick a "best" player in the world right now: soO won IEM then went out of Code S, Inno did bad at IEM before winning WESG, Maru disappointed and it's not in contention for the title atm, Serral did not bad but failed to secure a top spot; sc2 in 2019 is looking fairly exciting and uncertain.
As a Serral fan, I'd like to nevertheless thank him and wish him to rest and prepare well; I'm still convinced he has the potential to absolutely crush the scene again were him to to get his best shape back. I'd love to see him dominate but defeats happen; what is effectively a slump for him still involves top placements in the hardest tournaments.
or it's just that other players caught up/figured him out? If you play vs better opponents you look worse yourself.
Are you convinced of that? He has been recently making errors even when he was not under critical pressure(amove into gg...) along with those forced by hard situations(Ragnarok's baneling), compare that to his flawless defenses or crisp decision making he had the last year.
I'd have no problems to admit there is someone playing way better than Serral who makes him look not as good but that's not what I see in all honesty; coming to these last games, did it seem to you Inno had flawless mechanics and execution inducing Serral to play worse than we are used to see from him?
He didn’t have perfect series last year either, he had a bunch of close series that really could have gone either way
Well his 14-3 run at BlizzCon is the best ever and he was up 3-0 on Stats in the finals, that kind of qualifies for an almost flawless run.
I'm not speaking of dropping single maps in any of case, that can always happen in case of bo losses/unexpected strats; Serral was vulnerable between the first and second remax even at his top shape while looking unbeatable in both early and late game, he could lose games as he never really had the attitude of closing out series with a perfect scores dropping maps in every single one of his premier finals(even against Has or Mana).
What I am speaking of is the lack of gamebreaking errors and the incredibly solid decision making Serral had and seem to lacking as for now, he is sloppier with his mechanics too but those still shine in some games.
pretty sure I can point out similar mistakes in any of the maps he lost last year (throwing waves of low-tier Zerg armies into Stats' meatgrinder?). they just aren't as memorable because he still ended up winning the series
So, you are convinced this version of Innovation was the strongest opponent Serral ever met and that's entirely why he lost? As were soO and Neeb?
No? as already said he wasn't totally invincible last year either and had multiple close series that could have gone either way (vs Scarlett, Reynor, Stats, TaeJa and Inno himself). Now those games just happen to fall in favor of Serral's opponents.
Then you think Serral this March is playing approximately as good as he was at the end of 2018 and it just happened him to lose even series the same way he was winning them before?
I think the consistency Serral had in winning decisive games in 2018 wasn't just a product of fate; moreover, the 0-2 series against Neeb at WESG wasn't close at all, unlike any offline game Serral played after Nation Wars last year.
None of the games you listed took place at BlizzCon, where Serral showed us his very best shape.
Serral's ZvZ was shaky at Montreal, you forgot to list Lambo who, as well, took him to game 5.
The games against TaeJa and Inno took place at HSC where every Zerg was struggling hard against Terran, Serral lost most of these trying to figure out how ineffective Ultras were at the time despite their supposed gamechanging buff; in that regard, I can point out Serral's decision making was sharper than today's as he managed to eventually switch to Broodlords in the later games against Inno(just as he abandoned Swarmhosts against Stats at BlizzCon after having lost two consecutive games usting that strat), unlike he did today when he got stuck on that push which had already failed more than once.
The series against Stats at GSL vs the World actually responds to your criteria as Serral was in very good shape judging from his play but that's more of a testament to how incredibly undervalued Stats is; he looked incredibly solid that weekend, he was on par with Serral at delivering us great Starcraft, both could have rightfully claimed the title. Maru's and Stats' best form in 2018 severely impressed me, I haven't seen anyone playing as well this year, yet.
Thus said, I have no intention of underselling Innovation or soO who took out Serral in relevant series and both went on to win deservingly the tournaments where it happened, playing quite well; it's just that I genuinely think this year Serral hasn't been playing up to his previous standards. Observing the games, I am convinced a Serral in good shape would have defeated both of them; that's my opinion, of course, but I don't think my predilection for Serral is blinding me in this case.
I'm not sure if we'll ever see Serral as good as he was during his period of dominance; for sure, he needs a better form in order to defeat top koreans on a regular basis.
I think people will realize more after all this Serral losses that not playing in GSL helps you a lot staying invincible, and how Maru 3 GSL in a row is an incredible feat, having to defeat such strong players all year long.
I still think Serral is the best Zerg in the world above soO/Rogue/Dark but his ZvT albeit top world will probably stay a weakness for him since there aren’t that many good foreign terrans to practice with.
On March 18 2019 00:22 Poopi wrote: I think people will realize more after all this Serral losses that not playing in GSL helps you a lot staying invincible, and how Maru 3 GSL in a row is an incredible feat, having to defeat such strong players all year long.
I still think Serral is the best Zerg in the world above soO/Rogue/Dark but his ZvT albeit top world will probably stay a weakness for him since there aren’t that many good foreign terrans to practice with.
He can always cheese his way out of TvZ. There's plenty of stuff he can throw at players. With his skill level it shouldn't be an issue, the question is if he\s wanna be Has in TvZ
On March 18 2019 00:22 Poopi wrote: I think people will realize more after all this Serral losses that not playing in GSL helps you a lot staying invincible, and how Maru 3 GSL in a row is an incredible feat, having to defeat such strong players all year long.
I still think Serral is the best Zerg in the world above soO/Rogue/Dark but his ZvT albeit top world will probably stay a weakness for him since there aren’t that many good foreign terrans to practice with.
I partially agree with you, form ebbs and flows and Serral's streak would have ended sooner if he had to play top koreans more often; having to play mid level koreans, on the other hand, might have actually increased the amount of victories he could accumulate before dropping one series Three Code S in a row is indeed one incredibly feat, I am not sure Maru could have won all of them last year if the scene was globally open as you suggest it would; also, Maru was so incredibly good only at preparation tournaments, on korean's soil. On the other hand, he may very well win the fourth consecutive next month.
Serral's ZvT didn't especially look his weakness in 2019 considering he dropped series in every matchup this month; he is not the best in the world at the matchup, however, as at least Dark is surely better, while he may still be the best in ZvP and soO is his equal in ZvZ. Overall, I'd say he's the best Zerg in the world and he might even still be the best player in the world albeit there isn't someone clearly in the lead at the moment.
On March 17 2019 21:38 Xain0n wrote: Wp to Inno, he's looking more like the GOAT to me now that he won a Premier tournament in 2019; he should be #4 or #3 in the top earnings list, Serral is now #2 while Maru is still #1.
On the other hand, how can you guys be so corrosive and biased every time after every kind of result Serral has? He wins, salty; he loses, salty. Losing 3-4 in his worst matchup didn't really made him look especially weak, especially after he showed he CAN actually beat Terran in the lategame. He may have actually tricked himself today into trying to allin at least one game more than necessary after his losses at IEM; no sweep happened, nobody was destroyed, Inno and Serral played seven games out of seven and the one who was better today took the trophy, as simple as that.
Inno was not perfect yet he looked calm and convincing, he's not at his all time apex but he definitely looks like a top Terran again; on the other hand, did you actually look at Serral? Not even mentioning he looked sick(we knew that ten days ago already), have you seen that g6 broodlord engagement? Or another casual amove(after g2's vs soO) into losing roaches for free in g7? How sloppy he was at surrounding a tank with lings in a previous game? His overall indecisiveness? Did you really see that player last year? I didn't, you delude yourself if you think Serral is nowhere close to his best shape.
TvZ isn't even the problem, here; it is Serral's worst matchup and there is a lack of serious opponents on EU, that's true. Recently, tho, Serral lost as well in ZvZ against soO(even if he still looks good in the matchup) and against Neeb in PvZ(he loooked even more mortal at that matchup judging by his not exciting series against MaNa).
It simply appears Serral in 2019 has regressed as a player, downscaling from nigh unbeatable godlike global dominator to "just" a top player in a stacked pack of high level koreans. He still seems very consistent and strong enough to potentially win one international tournament(one game isn't that much, don't you agree?) but he's downright more mortal and beatable. It would be very hard to pick a "best" player in the world right now: soO won IEM then went out of Code S, Inno did bad at IEM before winning WESG, Maru disappointed and it's not in contention for the title atm, Serral did not bad but failed to secure a top spot; sc2 in 2019 is looking fairly exciting and uncertain.
As a Serral fan, I'd like to nevertheless thank him and wish him to rest and prepare well; I'm still convinced he has the potential to absolutely crush the scene again were him to to get his best shape back. I'd love to see him dominate but defeats happen; what is effectively a slump for him still involves top placements in the hardest tournaments.
or it's just that other players caught up/figured him out? If you play vs better opponents you look worse yourself.
Are you convinced of that? He has been recently making errors even when he was not under critical pressure(amove into gg...) along with those forced by hard situations(Ragnarok's baneling), compare that to his flawless defenses or crisp decision making he had the last year.
I'd have no problems to admit there is someone playing way better than Serral who makes him look not as good but that's not what I see in all honesty; coming to these last games, did it seem to you Inno had flawless mechanics and execution inducing Serral to play worse than we are used to see from him?
He didn’t have perfect series last year either, he had a bunch of close series that really could have gone either way
Well his 14-3 run at BlizzCon is the best ever and he was up 3-0 on Stats in the finals, that kind of qualifies for an almost flawless run.
I'm not speaking of dropping single maps in any of case, that can always happen in case of bo losses/unexpected strats; Serral was vulnerable between the first and second remax even at his top shape while looking unbeatable in both early and late game, he could lose games as he never really had the attitude of closing out series with a perfect scores dropping maps in every single one of his premier finals(even against Has or Mana).
What I am speaking of is the lack of gamebreaking errors and the incredibly solid decision making Serral had and seem to lacking as for now, he is sloppier with his mechanics too but those still shine in some games.
pretty sure I can point out similar mistakes in any of the maps he lost last year (throwing waves of low-tier Zerg armies into Stats' meatgrinder?). they just aren't as memorable because he still ended up winning the series
So, you are convinced this version of Innovation was the strongest opponent Serral ever met and that's entirely why he lost? As were soO and Neeb?
No? as already said he wasn't totally invincible last year either and had multiple close series that could have gone either way (vs Scarlett, Reynor, Stats, TaeJa and Inno himself). Now those games just happen to fall in favor of Serral's opponents.
Then you think Serral this March is playing approximately as good as he was at the end of 2018 and it just happened him to lose even series the same way he was winning them before?
I think the consistency Serral had in winning decisive games in 2018 wasn't just a product of fate; moreover, the 0-2 series against Neeb at WESG wasn't close at all, unlike any offline game Serral played after Nation Wars last year.
None of the games you listed took place at BlizzCon, where Serral showed us his very best shape.
Serral's ZvZ was shaky at Montreal, you forgot to list Lambo who, as well, took him to game 5.
The games against TaeJa and Inno took place at HSC where every Zerg was struggling hard against Terran, Serral lost most of these trying to figure out how ineffective Ultras were at the time despite their supposed gamechanging buff; in that regard, I can point out Serral's decision making was sharper than today's as he managed to eventually switch to Broodlords in the later games against Inno(just as he abandoned Swarmhosts against Stats at BlizzCon after having lost two consecutive games usting that strat), unlike he did today when he got stuck on that push which had already failed more than once.
The series against Stats at GSL vs the World actually responds to your criteria as Serral was in very good shape judging from his play but that's more of a testament to how incredibly undervalued Stats is; he looked incredibly solid that weekend, he was on par with Serral at delivering us great Starcraft, both could have rightfully claimed the title. Maru's and Stats' best form in 2018 severely impressed me, I haven't seen anyone playing as well this year, yet.
Thus said, I have no intention of underselling Innovation or soO who took out Serral in relevant series and both went on to win deservingly the tournaments where it happened, playing quite well; it's just that I genuinely think this year Serral hasn't been playing up to his previous standards. Observing the games, I am convinced a Serral in good shape would have defeated both of them; that's my opinion, of course, but I don't think my predilection for Serral is blinding me in this case.
I'm not sure if we'll ever see Serral as good as he was during his period of dominance; for sure, he needs a better form in order to defeat top koreans on a regular basis.
That's nonsense, each of them was playing their CURRENT form opponent, not the best form one, and the result showed who is better at the moment. As a Terran fanboy who have been watching Inno and Maru playing since the very first days of their careers, i'm confident to say that Inno's "HOST constant parade push" and 2017's Inno as well as last year's Maru were the two players that were invincible in TvZ, and on-form Serral could never beat Inno/Maru's best forms giving the ways they play.
On March 17 2019 22:26 CoupdeBoule wrote: Happy Scarlett ended up losing - although overall I would say Im a fan of Scarlett but holy cow not accepting the draw in game one when Scarlett had no Corruptors is one of the most disgraceful moments of unsportmanship that comes to mind - very disappointing
So what happened with this draw I couldn’t follow?
Maru left because he apparently forgot that you can lift buildings and fly to the corner resulting in a loss instead of a draw.
How is that bad sportsmanship by Scarlett then ?__? :D
On March 17 2019 21:38 Xain0n wrote: Wp to Inno, he's looking more like the GOAT to me now that he won a Premier tournament in 2019; he should be #4 or #3 in the top earnings list, Serral is now #2 while Maru is still #1.
On the other hand, how can you guys be so corrosive and biased every time after every kind of result Serral has? He wins, salty; he loses, salty. Losing 3-4 in his worst matchup didn't really made him look especially weak, especially after he showed he CAN actually beat Terran in the lategame. He may have actually tricked himself today into trying to allin at least one game more than necessary after his losses at IEM; no sweep happened, nobody was destroyed, Inno and Serral played seven games out of seven and the one who was better today took the trophy, as simple as that.
Inno was not perfect yet he looked calm and convincing, he's not at his all time apex but he definitely looks like a top Terran again; on the other hand, did you actually look at Serral? Not even mentioning he looked sick(we knew that ten days ago already), have you seen that g6 broodlord engagement? Or another casual amove(after g2's vs soO) into losing roaches for free in g7? How sloppy he was at surrounding a tank with lings in a previous game? His overall indecisiveness? Did you really see that player last year? I didn't, you delude yourself if you think Serral is nowhere close to his best shape.
TvZ isn't even the problem, here; it is Serral's worst matchup and there is a lack of serious opponents on EU, that's true. Recently, tho, Serral lost as well in ZvZ against soO(even if he still looks good in the matchup) and against Neeb in PvZ(he loooked even more mortal at that matchup judging by his not exciting series against MaNa).
It simply appears Serral in 2019 has regressed as a player, downscaling from nigh unbeatable godlike global dominator to "just" a top player in a stacked pack of high level koreans. He still seems very consistent and strong enough to potentially win one international tournament(one game isn't that much, don't you agree?) but he's downright more mortal and beatable. It would be very hard to pick a "best" player in the world right now: soO won IEM then went out of Code S, Inno did bad at IEM before winning WESG, Maru disappointed and it's not in contention for the title atm, Serral did not bad but failed to secure a top spot; sc2 in 2019 is looking fairly exciting and uncertain.
As a Serral fan, I'd like to nevertheless thank him and wish him to rest and prepare well; I'm still convinced he has the potential to absolutely crush the scene again were him to to get his best shape back. I'd love to see him dominate but defeats happen; what is effectively a slump for him still involves top placements in the hardest tournaments.
or it's just that other players caught up/figured him out? If you play vs better opponents you look worse yourself.
Are you convinced of that? He has been recently making errors even when he was not under critical pressure(amove into gg...) along with those forced by hard situations(Ragnarok's baneling), compare that to his flawless defenses or crisp decision making he had the last year.
I'd have no problems to admit there is someone playing way better than Serral who makes him look not as good but that's not what I see in all honesty; coming to these last games, did it seem to you Inno had flawless mechanics and execution inducing Serral to play worse than we are used to see from him?
Yes yes no one can compare to Serral. If he loses, he is either sick, tired, not focused enough, makes mistakes or he let's the opponent win. He doesn't lose because someone outplayed him no that can never happen. Serral is untouchable. You are officially the most deluded Sc2 fan ever, congrats!
No man, I'm sorry! With all my best efforts, I would never be able to reach the level of bias and delusion you can casually throw out without trying at all. So many "outplays" and "crushing defeats" in 4-3 and 3-2 series, you are perfectly right, not to mention Olimoleagues being officially recognized as korean equivalent of WCS.
Inno did well today, he played the series better than Serral and won deservingly; however, he did not make Serral look bad because of his superiority. Serral didn't even look bad, just worse than his best shape ,consistently with his level of play this March.
On March 17 2019 21:38 Xain0n wrote: Wp to Inno, he's looking more like the GOAT to me now that he won a Premier tournament in 2019; he should be #4 or #3 in the top earnings list, Serral is now #2 while Maru is still #1.
On the other hand, how can you guys be so corrosive and biased every time after every kind of result Serral has? He wins, salty; he loses, salty. Losing 3-4 in his worst matchup didn't really made him look especially weak, especially after he showed he CAN actually beat Terran in the lategame. He may have actually tricked himself today into trying to allin at least one game more than necessary after his losses at IEM; no sweep happened, nobody was destroyed, Inno and Serral played seven games out of seven and the one who was better today took the trophy, as simple as that.
Inno was not perfect yet he looked calm and convincing, he's not at his all time apex but he definitely looks like a top Terran again; on the other hand, did you actually look at Serral? Not even mentioning he looked sick(we knew that ten days ago already), have you seen that g6 broodlord engagement? Or another casual amove(after g2's vs soO) into losing roaches for free in g7? How sloppy he was at surrounding a tank with lings in a previous game? His overall indecisiveness? Did you really see that player last year? I didn't, you delude yourself if you think Serral is nowhere close to his best shape.
TvZ isn't even the problem, here; it is Serral's worst matchup and there is a lack of serious opponents on EU, that's true. Recently, tho, Serral lost as well in ZvZ against soO(even if he still looks good in the matchup) and against Neeb in PvZ(he loooked even more mortal at that matchup judging by his not exciting series against MaNa).
It simply appears Serral in 2019 has regressed as a player, downscaling from nigh unbeatable godlike global dominator to "just" a top player in a stacked pack of high level koreans. He still seems very consistent and strong enough to potentially win one international tournament(one game isn't that much, don't you agree?) but he's downright more mortal and beatable. It would be very hard to pick a "best" player in the world right now: soO won IEM then went out of Code S, Inno did bad at IEM before winning WESG, Maru disappointed and it's not in contention for the title atm, Serral did not bad but failed to secure a top spot; sc2 in 2019 is looking fairly exciting and uncertain.
As a Serral fan, I'd like to nevertheless thank him and wish him to rest and prepare well; I'm still convinced he has the potential to absolutely crush the scene again were him to to get his best shape back. I'd love to see him dominate but defeats happen; what is effectively a slump for him still involves top placements in the hardest tournaments.
or it's just that other players caught up/figured him out? If you play vs better opponents you look worse yourself.
Are you convinced of that? He has been recently making errors even when he was not under critical pressure(amove into gg...) along with those forced by hard situations(Ragnarok's baneling), compare that to his flawless defenses or crisp decision making he had the last year.
I'd have no problems to admit there is someone playing way better than Serral who makes him look not as good but that's not what I see in all honesty; coming to these last games, did it seem to you Inno had flawless mechanics and execution inducing Serral to play worse than we are used to see from him?
He didn’t have perfect series last year either, he had a bunch of close series that really could have gone either way
Well his 14-3 run at BlizzCon is the best ever and he was up 3-0 on Stats in the finals, that kind of qualifies for an almost flawless run.
I'm not speaking of dropping single maps in any of case, that can always happen in case of bo losses/unexpected strats; Serral was vulnerable between the first and second remax even at his top shape while looking unbeatable in both early and late game, he could lose games as he never really had the attitude of closing out series with a perfect scores dropping maps in every single one of his premier finals(even against Has or Mana).
What I am speaking of is the lack of gamebreaking errors and the incredibly solid decision making Serral had and seem to lacking as for now, he is sloppier with his mechanics too but those still shine in some games.
pretty sure I can point out similar mistakes in any of the maps he lost last year (throwing waves of low-tier Zerg armies into Stats' meatgrinder?). they just aren't as memorable because he still ended up winning the series
So, you are convinced this version of Innovation was the strongest opponent Serral ever met and that's entirely why he lost? As were soO and Neeb?
No? as already said he wasn't totally invincible last year either and had multiple close series that could have gone either way (vs Scarlett, Reynor, Stats, TaeJa and Inno himself). Now those games just happen to fall in favor of Serral's opponents.
Then you think Serral this March is playing approximately as good as he was at the end of 2018 and it just happened him to lose even series the same way he was winning them before?
I think the consistency Serral had in winning decisive games in 2018 wasn't just a product of fate; moreover, the 0-2 series against Neeb at WESG wasn't close at all, unlike any offline game Serral played after Nation Wars last year.
None of the games you listed took place at BlizzCon, where Serral showed us his very best shape.
Serral's ZvZ was shaky at Montreal, you forgot to list Lambo who, as well, took him to game 5.
The games against TaeJa and Inno took place at HSC where every Zerg was struggling hard against Terran, Serral lost most of these trying to figure out how ineffective Ultras were at the time despite their supposed gamechanging buff; in that regard, I can point out Serral's decision making was sharper than today's as he managed to eventually switch to Broodlords in the later games against Inno(just as he abandoned Swarmhosts against Stats at BlizzCon after having lost two consecutive games usting that strat), unlike he did today when he got stuck on that push which had already failed more than once.
The series against Stats at GSL vs the World actually responds to your criteria as Serral was in very good shape judging from his play but that's more of a testament to how incredibly undervalued Stats is; he looked incredibly solid that weekend, he was on par with Serral at delivering us great Starcraft, both could have rightfully claimed the title. Maru's and Stats' best form in 2018 severely impressed me, I haven't seen anyone playing as well this year, yet.
Thus said, I have no intention of underselling Innovation or soO who took out Serral in relevant series and both went on to win deservingly the tournaments where it happened, playing quite well; it's just that I genuinely think this year Serral hasn't been playing up to his previous standards. Observing the games, I am convinced a Serral in good shape would have defeated both of them; that's my opinion, of course, but I don't think my predilection for Serral is blinding me in this case.
I'm not sure if we'll ever see Serral as good as he was during his period of dominance; for sure, he needs a better form in order to defeat top koreans on a regular basis.
That's nonsense, each of them was playing their CURRENT form opponent, not the best form one, and the result showed who is better at the moment. As a Terran fanboy who have been watching Inno and Maru playing since the very first days of their careers, i'm confident to say that Inno's "HOST constant parade push" and 2017's Inno as well as last year's Maru were the two players that were invincible in TvZ, and on-form Serral could never beat Inno/Maru's best forms giving the ways they play.
How can this be nonsense when I said that was just my opinion? You are entitled to yours, I am confident Serral could have been more than capable of taking down Maru last year. It's impressive that you felt the need to comment on the opinion I offered on something than cannot be appropriately evaluated and is basically just pure speculation; no discussion can be built on that, unlike the rest of my post.
Not to mention Serral had that shape just a few months ago, not years, and it's not otherwordly to think he could retain it or that he will reach it again.
On March 17 2019 22:26 CoupdeBoule wrote: Happy Scarlett ended up losing - although overall I would say Im a fan of Scarlett but holy cow not accepting the draw in game one when Scarlett had no Corruptors is one of the most disgraceful moments of unsportmanship that comes to mind - very disappointing
So what happened with this draw I couldn’t follow?
Maru left because he apparently forgot that you can lift buildings and fly to the corner resulting in a loss instead of a draw.
How is that bad sportsmanship by Scarlett then ?__? :D
just uninformed people trolling/stoking drama. no one did anything wrong. there's just a lot of confusion because apparently both scarlett and maru didn't think about the possibility of floating buildings even though the game had been paused to discuss a draw. it seems incredible, but there you go.
the suggestion that scarlett did something dishonorable is insane trolling - the fact that she won and maru left proves she was in the right to play the game out. if maru had realized he could get a draw, he could have simply floated the buildings, at which point she certainly would have accepted it.
in starcraft it's not enough that your units (OR buildings) can win the game, you have to actually control them and win it yourself. saying maru should get a free draw without floating his buildings is like saying he should get free wins for building a bigger army. you have to execute every minute of this game.
On March 17 2019 19:05 AzAlexZ wrote: why is Serral just cheesing????? no macro games?
He's not good at TvZ?
When MVP cheesed against zerg, he was a genius god
MVP didn't have the history of losing to macro games against really good players though, Mvp was killing it.
Serral has a history of 2-3 games of loosing macro games
The last year he played 1 good Korean Terran in offline BO3 or better and lost 3:0, even if he add to that the BO1 - Maru went for proxy, failed and the game was more equal than it should be. Serral is weak to Korean Terrans because there are no good Terrans at WCS. Not on top Korean Terran levels. And Serral is top Zerg who can't practice against the best Terrans.
You are willing to add the Bo1 against Maru before the Bo5 against Inno? lol
Innovation in 2k18 was quite shite. If you're talking about HSC. Even nowadays innovation isn't in his 2k17 form IMO.
Yeah, Inno is in reasonably good form atm but nowhere close to 2017 Inno
What about 2013 Inno? He was unstoppable with the most amazing bio splits vs zerg back then...
On March 18 2019 00:22 Poopi wrote: I think people will realize more after all this Serral losses that not playing in GSL helps you a lot staying invincible, and how Maru 3 GSL in a row is an incredible feat, having to defeat such strong players all year long.
I still think Serral is the best Zerg in the world above soO/Rogue/Dark but his ZvT albeit top world will probably stay a weakness for him since there aren’t that many good foreign terrans to practice with.
He can always cheese his way out of TvZ. There's plenty of stuff he can throw at players. With his skill level it shouldn't be an issue, the question is if he\s wanna be Has in TvZ
To think he was criticized for being overly defensive last year… you guys are never satisfied, are you?
On March 17 2019 22:26 CoupdeBoule wrote: Happy Scarlett ended up losing - although overall I would say Im a fan of Scarlett but holy cow not accepting the draw in game one when Scarlett had no Corruptors is one of the most disgraceful moments of unsportmanship that comes to mind - very disappointing
So what happened with this draw I couldn’t follow?
Maru left because he apparently forgot that you can lift buildings and fly to the corner resulting in a loss instead of a draw.
How is that bad sportsmanship by Scarlett then ?__? :D
just uninformed people trolling/stoking drama. no one did anything wrong. there's just a lot of confusion because apparently both scarlett and maru didn't think about the possibility of floating buildings even though the game had been paused to discuss a draw. it seems incredible, but there you go.
the suggestion that scarlett did something dishonorable is insane trolling - the fact that she won and maru left proves she was in the right to play the game out. if maru had realized he could get a draw, he could have simply floated the buildings, at which point she certainly would have accepted it.
in starcraft it's not enough that your units (OR buildings) can win the game, you have to actually control them and win it yourself. saying maru should get a free draw without floating his buildings is like saying he should get free wins for building a bigger army. you have to execute every minute of this game.
Speaking of uninformed, the fact that you consider it a free draw for Maru in a situation where Scarlett has no theoretical way to win says everything about you.
On March 17 2019 22:26 CoupdeBoule wrote: Happy Scarlett ended up losing - although overall I would say Im a fan of Scarlett but holy cow not accepting the draw in game one when Scarlett had no Corruptors is one of the most disgraceful moments of unsportmanship that comes to mind - very disappointing
So what happened with this draw I couldn’t follow?
Maru left because he apparently forgot that you can lift buildings and fly to the corner resulting in a loss instead of a draw.
How is that bad sportsmanship by Scarlett then ?__? :D
just uninformed people trolling/stoking drama. no one did anything wrong. there's just a lot of confusion because apparently both scarlett and maru didn't think about the possibility of floating buildings even though the game had been paused to discuss a draw. it seems incredible, but there you go.
the suggestion that scarlett did something dishonorable is insane trolling - the fact that she won and maru left proves she was in the right to play the game out. if maru had realized he could get a draw, he could have simply floated the buildings, at which point she certainly would have accepted it.
in starcraft it's not enough that your units (OR buildings) can win the game, you have to actually control them and win it yourself. saying maru should get a free draw without floating his buildings is like saying he should get free wins for building a bigger army. you have to execute every minute of this game.
Speaking of uninformed, the fact that you consider it a free draw for Maru in a situation where Scarlett has no theoretical way to win says everything about you.
Explain your point then. Why the hell would Scarlett offer up a draw in that situation?
On March 17 2019 21:38 Xain0n wrote: Wp to Inno, he's looking more like the GOAT to me now that he won a Premier tournament in 2019; he should be #4 or #3 in the top earnings list, Serral is now #2 while Maru is still #1.
On the other hand, how can you guys be so corrosive and biased every time after every kind of result Serral has? He wins, salty; he loses, salty. Losing 3-4 in his worst matchup didn't really made him look especially weak, especially after he showed he CAN actually beat Terran in the lategame. He may have actually tricked himself today into trying to allin at least one game more than necessary after his losses at IEM; no sweep happened, nobody was destroyed, Inno and Serral played seven games out of seven and the one who was better today took the trophy, as simple as that.
Inno was not perfect yet he looked calm and convincing, he's not at his all time apex but he definitely looks like a top Terran again; on the other hand, did you actually look at Serral? Not even mentioning he looked sick(we knew that ten days ago already), have you seen that g6 broodlord engagement? Or another casual amove(after g2's vs soO) into losing roaches for free in g7? How sloppy he was at surrounding a tank with lings in a previous game? His overall indecisiveness? Did you really see that player last year? I didn't, you delude yourself if you think Serral is nowhere close to his best shape.
TvZ isn't even the problem, here; it is Serral's worst matchup and there is a lack of serious opponents on EU, that's true. Recently, tho, Serral lost as well in ZvZ against soO(even if he still looks good in the matchup) and against Neeb in PvZ(he loooked even more mortal at that matchup judging by his not exciting series against MaNa).
It simply appears Serral in 2019 has regressed as a player, downscaling from nigh unbeatable godlike global dominator to "just" a top player in a stacked pack of high level koreans. He still seems very consistent and strong enough to potentially win one international tournament(one game isn't that much, don't you agree?) but he's downright more mortal and beatable. It would be very hard to pick a "best" player in the world right now: soO won IEM then went out of Code S, Inno did bad at IEM before winning WESG, Maru disappointed and it's not in contention for the title atm, Serral did not bad but failed to secure a top spot; sc2 in 2019 is looking fairly exciting and uncertain.
As a Serral fan, I'd like to nevertheless thank him and wish him to rest and prepare well; I'm still convinced he has the potential to absolutely crush the scene again were him to to get his best shape back. I'd love to see him dominate but defeats happen; what is effectively a slump for him still involves top placements in the hardest tournaments.
or it's just that other players caught up/figured him out? If you play vs better opponents you look worse yourself.
Are you convinced of that? He has been recently making errors even when he was not under critical pressure(amove into gg...) along with those forced by hard situations(Ragnarok's baneling), compare that to his flawless defenses or crisp decision making he had the last year.
I'd have no problems to admit there is someone playing way better than Serral who makes him look not as good but that's not what I see in all honesty; coming to these last games, did it seem to you Inno had flawless mechanics and execution inducing Serral to play worse than we are used to see from him?
Yes yes no one can compare to Serral. If he loses, he is either sick, tired, not focused enough, makes mistakes or he let's the opponent win. He doesn't lose because someone outplayed him no that can never happen. Serral is untouchable. You are officially the most deluded Sc2 fan ever, congrats!
No man, I'm sorry! With all my best efforts, I would never be able to reach the level of bias and delusion you can casually throw out without trying at all. So many "outplays" and "crushing defeats" in 4-3 and 3-2 series, you are perfectly right, not to mention Olimoleagues being officially recognized as korean equivalent of WCS.
Inno did well today, he played the series better than Serral and won deservingly; however, he did not make Serral look bad because of his superiority. Serral didn't even look bad, just worse than his best shape ,consistently with his level of play this March.
I never said Olimoleagues were Korean equivalent of WCS, I would never diminish Olimoleagues that much. They are much harder to win with better quality players Inno beat Serral 2x in a row and was the better player both times. We can officially say he is just better in the matchup and always was tbh. its Inno one of the contenders for the goat. Serral will never catch up to him in terms of success as he stated he is not interested in GSL (which is fine he probably just wants to win as much money as he can in region with low competition instead of risking it for just a potential prestige. If I was as good as him would probably do the same)
On March 17 2019 22:26 CoupdeBoule wrote: Happy Scarlett ended up losing - although overall I would say Im a fan of Scarlett but holy cow not accepting the draw in game one when Scarlett had no Corruptors is one of the most disgraceful moments of unsportmanship that comes to mind - very disappointing
So what happened with this draw I couldn’t follow?
Maru left because he apparently forgot that you can lift buildings and fly to the corner resulting in a loss instead of a draw.
How is that bad sportsmanship by Scarlett then ?__? :D
just uninformed people trolling/stoking drama. no one did anything wrong. there's just a lot of confusion because apparently both scarlett and maru didn't think about the possibility of floating buildings even though the game had been paused to discuss a draw. it seems incredible, but there you go.
the suggestion that scarlett did something dishonorable is insane trolling - the fact that she won and maru left proves she was in the right to play the game out. if maru had realized he could get a draw, he could have simply floated the buildings, at which point she certainly would have accepted it.
in starcraft it's not enough that your units (OR buildings) can win the game, you have to actually control them and win it yourself. saying maru should get a free draw without floating his buildings is like saying he should get free wins for building a bigger army. you have to execute every minute of this game.
Speaking of uninformed, the fact that you consider it a free draw for Maru in a situation where Scarlett has no theoretical way to win says everything about you.
Explain your point then. Why the hell would Scarlett offer up a draw in that situation?
Scarlett had no way of winning (no Corruptors vs flying buildings) - only draw or loss was an option in that position. Maru after 5-10 min of no action and scanning the map pauses and offers draw. Scarlett for whatever reason declines.
Imo Maru has the best TvZ and Inno has the 2nd best TvZ. The problem with Maru is decision making when it comes to what build to use. He has the best skills.
EPT
