On March 17 2019 20:56 sertman wrote: Is it really that controversial to point out that Serral's ZvT is underdeveloped compared to his other matchups lol
No, it's very obvious to anyone that is not a rabid Serral fan who can't accept that Serral does in fact have weaknesses.
Not rocket science either, Serral is a European who lives and plays in Europe. Who can he practice with that's on the level of top Korean Terrans?
As semi-rabid Serral fan, I hastily note that of course Serral has weaknesses! Question is: Relative to what or who?
Even his weakest match up cannot be said to be weak if we compare across whole field, or only if we just look at the pool of top players.
It was not like Inno had easy milkrun in a park today, right? Serral put best resistance against him than anyone else in the tournament.
"Serral's ZvT is underdeveloped compared to his other matchups lol"
Was what the OP said, and that's a very obvious truth, since it's relative to his ZvP and ZvZ. Certainly Serral has excellent ZvT, he's beaten Inno before after all and took him to Game 7 here. But I would argue that Rogue and Dark have a better understanding of how to play against top Terrans–just watch how Rogue took Inno apart at IEM.
It was more an answer to a poster who claims serral's zvt was really weak. Which is ridiculous considering I don't think his zvp is as strong as before too.
On March 17 2019 20:56 sertman wrote: Is it really that controversial to point out that Serral's ZvT is underdeveloped compared to his other matchups lol
No, it's very obvious to anyone that is not a rabid Serral fan who can't accept that Serral does in fact have weaknesses.
Not rocket science either, Serral is a European who lives and plays in Europe. Who can he practice with that's on the level of top Korean Terrans?
As semi-rabid Serral fan, I hastily note that of course Serral has weaknesses! Question is: Relative to what or who?
Even his weakest match up cannot be said to be weak if we compare across whole field, or only if we just look at the pool of top players.
It was not like Inno had easy milkrun in a park today, right? Serral put best resistance against him than anyone else in the tournament.
"Serral's ZvT is underdeveloped compared to his other matchups lol"
Was what the OP said, and that's a very obvious truth, since it's relative to his ZvP and ZvZ.
Certainly Serral has excellent ZvT, he's beaten Inno before after all, and took him to Game 7 here. But I would argue that Rogue and Dark have a better understanding of how to play against top Terrans–just watch how Rogue took Inno apart at IEM.
I agree.
I'm sure Serral recognize his most urgent development needs very well.
On March 17 2019 20:56 sertman wrote: Is it really that controversial to point out that Serral's ZvT is underdeveloped compared to his other matchups lol
No, it's very obvious to anyone that is not a rabid Serral fan who can't accept that Serral does in fact have weaknesses.
Not rocket science either, Serral is a European who lives and plays in Europe. Who can he practice with that's on the level of top Korean Terrans?
As semi-rabid Serral fan, I hastily note that of course Serral has weaknesses! Question is: Relative to what or who?
Even his weakest match up cannot be said to be weak if we compare across whole field, or only if we just look at the pool of top players.
It was not like Inno had easy milkrun in a park today, right? Serral put best resistance against him than anyone else in the tournament.
"Serral's ZvT is underdeveloped compared to his other matchups lol"
Was what the OP said, and that's a very obvious truth, since it's relative to his ZvP and ZvZ.
Certainly Serral has excellent ZvT, he's beaten Inno before after all, and took him to Game 7 here. But I would argue that Rogue and Dark have a better understanding of how to play against top Terrans–just watch how Rogue took Inno apart at IEM.
and on the other hand his absence at korea creats a perfect smokescreen covering his playstyle
On March 17 2019 20:56 sertman wrote: Is it really that controversial to point out that Serral's ZvT is underdeveloped compared to his other matchups lol
No, it's very obvious to anyone that is not a rabid Serral fan who can't accept that Serral does in fact have weaknesses.
Not rocket science either, Serral is a European who lives and plays in Europe. Who can he practice with that's on the level of top Korean Terrans?
Luckily he doesn't compete in korea so he can become the GOAT without actually beating any top terrans
I just see this as Innovation on a better form than Serral on this playoffs(if not the tournament). Serral's zvt is fine considering he has beaten alot of the best available tvz players(including innovation). Might not be as good as his zvz or zvp still really quite good enough to beat the best.
It just so happens that this finals. Innovation was the better player this time. Not much can be done from there.
As the ultimate Maru fanboy, I have never enjoyed Innovation playstyle so much. But dude. He was already battling Soulkey in 2013, and has been consistent through all sc2 years, and thats a bunch of time. He was a champion during the young days of the game, and continues defeating wonderkids like Maru or Serral. The GOAT imho.
Inno has been the best TvZ player in the world for months if not years. His win rate was in the 90s at one point. This is exactly the kind of person Serral is supposed to lose to. Serral was coughing a whole lot, and didn't look in great shape physically, but at the end of the day if he was that sick that it massively impacted his playing ability I doubt he'd have won the super late game match which required constant troop movements and spell casting. He lost a few games entirely due to shitty openers. Being sick affects how you execute a strategy, it doesn't make you choose bad ones from the jump.
The biggest impact on all the games was the openers Serral chose. Just like Dark often does, he aggro openered his way into a terrible midgame position.
Wp to Inno, he's looking more like the GOAT to me now that he won a Premier tournament in 2019; he should be #4 or #3 in the top earnings list, Serral is now #2 while Maru is still #1.
On the other hand, how can you guys be so corrosive and biased every time after every kind of result Serral has? He wins, salty; he loses, salty. Losing 3-4 in his worst matchup didn't really made him look especially weak, especially after he showed he CAN actually beat Terran in the lategame. He may have actually tricked himself today into trying to allin at least one game more than necessary after his losses at IEM; no sweep happened, nobody was destroyed, Inno and Serral played seven games out of seven and the one who was better today took the trophy, as simple as that.
Inno was not perfect yet he looked calm and convincing, he's not at his all time apex but he definitely looks like a top Terran again; on the other hand, did you actually look at Serral? Not even mentioning he looked sick(we knew that ten days ago already), have you seen that g6 broodlord engagement? Or another casual amove(after g2's vs soO) into losing roaches for free in g7? How sloppy he was at surrounding a tank with lings in a previous game? His overall indecisiveness? Did you really see that player last year? I didn't, you delude yourself if you think Serral is nowhere close to his best shape.
TvZ isn't even the problem, here; it is Serral's worst matchup and there is a lack of serious opponents on EU, that's true. Recently, tho, Serral lost as well in ZvZ against soO(even if he still looks good in the matchup) and against Neeb in PvZ(he loooked even more mortal at that matchup judging by his not exciting series against MaNa).
It simply appears Serral in 2019 has regressed as a player, downscaling from nigh unbeatable godlike global dominator to "just" a top player in a stacked pack of high level koreans. He still seems very consistent and strong enough to potentially win one international tournament(one game isn't that much, don't you agree?) but he's downright more mortal and beatable. It would be very hard to pick a "best" player in the world right now: soO won IEM then went out of Code S, Inno did bad at IEM before winning WESG, Maru disappointed and it's not in contention for the title atm, Serral did not bad but failed to secure a top spot; sc2 in 2019 is looking fairly exciting and uncertain.
As a Serral fan, I'd like to nevertheless thank him and wish him to rest and prepare well; I'm still convinced he has the potential to absolutely crush the scene again were him to to get his best shape back. I'd love to see him dominate but defeats happen; what is effectively a slump for him still involves top placements in the hardest tournaments.
On March 17 2019 21:32 ubikz wrote: As the ultimate Maru fanboy, I have never enjoyed Innovation playstyle so much. But dude. He was already battling Soulkey in 2013, and has been consistent through all sc2 years, and thats a bunch of time. He was a champion during the young days of the game, and continues defeating wonderkids like Maru or Serral. The GOAT imho.
Crazy how Maru is considered a wonder kid still when he won his first tournament something like a month after INno did, and his first starleague over a year before.
On March 17 2019 21:38 Xain0n wrote: Wp to Inno, he's looking more like the GOAT to me now that he won a Premier tournament in 2019; he should be #4 or #3 in the top earnings list, Serral is now #2 while Maru is still #1.
On the other hand, how can you guys be so corrosive and biased every time after every kind of result Serral has? He wins, salty; he loses, salty. Losing 3-4 in his worst matchup didn't really made him look especially weak, especially after he showed he CAN actually beat Terran in the lategame. He may have actually tricked himself today into trying to allin at least one game more than necessary after his losses at IEM; no sweep happened, nobody was destroyed, Inno and Serral played seven games out of seven and the one who was better today took the trophy, as simple as that.
Inno was not perfect yet he looked calm and convincing, he's not at his all time apex but he definitely looks like a top Terran again; on the other hand, did you actually look at Serral? Not even mentioning he looked sick(we knew that ten days ago already), have you seen that g6 broodlord engagement? Or another casual amove(after g2's vs soO) into losing roaches for free in g7? How sloppy he was at surrounding a tank with lings in a previous game? His overall indecisiveness? Did you really see that player last year? I didn't, you delude yourself if you think Serral is nowhere close to his best shape.
TvZ isn't even the problem, here; it is Serral's worst matchup and there is a lack of serious opponents on EU, that's true. Recently, tho, Serral lost as well in ZvZ against soO(even if he still looks good in the matchup) and against Neeb in PvZ(he loooked even more mortal at that matchup judging by his not exciting series against MaNa).
It simply appears Serral in 2019 has regressed as a player, downscaling from nigh unbeatable godlike global dominator to "just" a top player in a stacked pack of high level koreans. He still seems very consistent and strong enough to potentially win one international tournament(one game isn't that much, don't you agree?) but he's downright more mortal and beatable. It would be very hard to pick a "best" player in the world right now: soO won IEM then went out of Code S, Inno did bad at IEM before winning WESG, Maru disappointed and it's not in contention for the title atm, Serral did not bad but failed to secure a top spot; sc2 in 2019 is looking fairly exciting and uncertain.
As a Serral fan, I'd like to nevertheless thank him and wish him to rest and prepare well; I'm still convinced he has the potential to absolutely crush the scene again were him to to get his best shape back. I'd love to see him dominate but defeats happen; what is effectively a slump for him still involves top placements in the hardest tournaments.
or it's just that other players caught up/figured him out? If you play vs better opponents you look worse yourself.
On March 17 2019 21:32 ubikz wrote: As the ultimate Maru fanboy, I have never enjoyed Innovation playstyle so much. But dude. He was already battling Soulkey in 2013, and has been consistent through all sc2 years, and thats a bunch of time. He was a champion during the young days of the game, and continues defeating wonderkids like Maru or Serral. The GOAT imho.
Crazy how Maru is considered a wonder kid still when he won his first tournament something like a month after INno did, and his first starleague over a year before.
well sc2 players grew up with maru we've known him since he was what.. 12 or 13? he will always be a baby
On March 17 2019 21:41 travis wrote: just got up what the hell was that g1 between scarlett and maru
so weird... on so many levels
you just woke up and that was the game you watched? or you fell asleep to that probably more likely :D
i did a lot of skipping forward
i'd hope so. that was not a live cast you wanted to sit through. tho the lr and chat were all feeding off of each other and it was actually pretty fun experience. watching scarlett scorched earth tactix was quite interesting.
On March 17 2019 21:32 ubikz wrote: As the ultimate Maru fanboy, I have never enjoyed Innovation playstyle so much. But dude. He was already battling Soulkey in 2013, and has been consistent through all sc2 years, and thats a bunch of time. He was a champion during the young days of the game, and continues defeating wonderkids like Maru or Serral. The GOAT imho.
Crazy how Maru is considered a wonder kid still when he won his first tournament something like a month after INno did, and his first starleague over a year before.
He's young and cute tho, whereas Inno was being called Robogus in 2013.
On March 17 2019 21:32 ubikz wrote: As the ultimate Maru fanboy, I have never enjoyed Innovation playstyle so much. But dude. He was already battling Soulkey in 2013, and has been consistent through all sc2 years, and thats a bunch of time. He was a champion during the young days of the game, and continues defeating wonderkids like Maru or Serral. The GOAT imho.
Crazy how Maru is considered a wonder kid still when he won his first tournament something like a month after INno did, and his first starleague over a year before.
He's super young and cute tho, whereas Inno was being called Robogus in 2013.
yes. it's like comparing a puppy to an automaton designed to look like a puppy (even though he has clear skin now thanks to proactiv [3 easy steps])
On March 17 2019 21:32 ubikz wrote: As the ultimate Maru fanboy, I have never enjoyed Innovation playstyle so much. But dude. He was already battling Soulkey in 2013, and has been consistent through all sc2 years, and thats a bunch of time. He was a champion during the young days of the game, and continues defeating wonderkids like Maru or Serral. The GOAT imho.
Crazy how Maru is considered a wonder kid still when he won his first tournament something like a month after INno did, and his first starleague over a year before.
He's super young and cute tho, whereas Inno was being called Robogus in 2013.
yes. it's like comparing a puppy to an automaton designed to look like a puppy (even though he has clear skin now thanks to proactiv [3 easy steps])
On March 17 2019 21:38 Xain0n wrote: Wp to Inno, he's looking more like the GOAT to me now that he won a Premier tournament in 2019; he should be #4 or #3 in the top earnings list, Serral is now #2 while Maru is still #1.
On the other hand, how can you guys be so corrosive and biased every time after every kind of result Serral has? He wins, salty; he loses, salty. Losing 3-4 in his worst matchup didn't really made him look especially weak, especially after he showed he CAN actually beat Terran in the lategame. He may have actually tricked himself today into trying to allin at least one game more than necessary after his losses at IEM; no sweep happened, nobody was destroyed, Inno and Serral played seven games out of seven and the one who was better today took the trophy, as simple as that.
Inno was not perfect yet he looked calm and convincing, he's not at his all time apex but he definitely looks like a top Terran again; on the other hand, did you actually look at Serral? Not even mentioning he looked sick(we knew that ten days ago already), have you seen that g6 broodlord engagement? Or another casual amove(after g2's vs soO) into losing roaches for free in g7? How sloppy he was at surrounding a tank with lings in a previous game? His overall indecisiveness? Did you really see that player last year? I didn't, you delude yourself if you think Serral is nowhere close to his best shape.
TvZ isn't even the problem, here; it is Serral's worst matchup and there is a lack of serious opponents on EU, that's true. Recently, tho, Serral lost as well in ZvZ against soO(even if he still looks good in the matchup) and against Neeb in PvZ(he loooked even more mortal at that matchup judging by his not exciting series against MaNa).
It simply appears Serral in 2019 has regressed as a player, downscaling from nigh unbeatable godlike global dominator to "just" a top player in a stacked pack of high level koreans. He still seems very consistent and strong enough to potentially win one international tournament(one game isn't that much, don't you agree?) but he's downright more mortal and beatable. It would be very hard to pick a "best" player in the world right now: soO won IEM then went out of Code S, Inno did bad at IEM before winning WESG, Maru disappointed and it's not in contention for the title atm, Serral did not bad but failed to secure a top spot; sc2 in 2019 is looking fairly exciting and uncertain.
As a Serral fan, I'd like to nevertheless thank him and wish him to rest and prepare well; I'm still convinced he has the potential to absolutely crush the scene again were him to to get his best shape back. I'd love to see him dominate but defeats happen; what is effectively a slump for him still involves top placements in the hardest tournaments.
or it's just that other players caught up/figured him out? If you play vs better opponents you look worse yourself.
Are you convinced of that? He has been recently making errors even when he was not under critical pressure(amove into gg...) along with those forced by hard situations(Ragnarok's baneling), compare that to his flawless defenses or crisp decision making he had the last year.
I'd have no problems to admit there is someone playing way better than Serral who makes him look not as good but that's not what I see in all honesty; coming to these last games, did it seem to you Inno had flawless mechanics and execution inducing Serral to play worse than we are used to see from him?
EPT![[image loading]](https://i.redd.it/ngtjji9g7om21.jpg)
