100% a popularity contest. There are three distinct calls to personal interpretation in that sentence alone. This is entirely dependent on popular vote based on personal and subjective merits.
that doesn't make it a popularity contest. If it would be a popularity contest the question would be "which player do you like the most" and not "which player do you think is the greatest"
Yes it does. Whether or not something is a popularity contest isn't based on the phrasing of the question, that's ridiculous. The sole method for winning this contest is to be the most popular option. It is a popularity contest. The nature of the contest is in its structure.
On April 24 2019 19:46 Elmonti wrote: this is not a popularity contest...
This is exactly a popularity contest.
If you want to know who the best player of StarCraft is, have them play StarCraft. Anything else is subjective. And even matching players isn't going to be satisfyingly objective, because upsets happen, various tournaments are valued differently, maps or patches can be racially imbalanced, different periods of StarCraft's history are valued differently, and so on.
Show a minimum of courage and stand by your own opinion instead of pretending it's some measure of objectivity.
Alternatively, prove your opinion objectively. But obviously that will never happen, because it can never happen.
Greetings, this is not a popularity contest.
Lets start with the philosophical question of what is a popularity contest. Yes, well it is a contest were the winner is decided by people voting for whom the LIKE best.
From what I understand this contest is won by the player that the most people voted for being the greatest.
Personally when I vote for which player i like best or which player is the greatest historically that often leads to two different votes. Tell me if I'm wrong but I thought I was supposed to vote for the greatest player, not my favorite player? If the answer is vote for your favorite one this is a popularity contest otherwise not.
For reference greatness cannot be decided by a match of starcraft, greatness is something that will ALWAYS be subjective in a game with such a long spanning history as sc2. Which player had the highest peak? Which player was the most consistent over time? Which outside factors should be taken into account (broken body, return from military, lacking a team and so on) and how much of an impact should they have? Which scene is the most competetive, which time span in history was the most competetive, which tournaments were the most impressive to win? How much more or less of an accomplishment should a WCS win be considered compared to GSL/IEM/WESG and so on.
That is why greatness is always decided by the fans, not only by counting trophies. At the moment I would say sc2 doesn't have a greatest player ever, because the community is split and there is never a "right" answer to this question, only the most popular answer. When the majority agrees that somehow it becomes true but in reality its never truth, its always subjective. In that way this contest, even though lighthearted and done mainly for fun will actually in a way show who seems to be closest to the greatest player of all time at the moment.
Take Serral for example, his results are bland in comparison to Maru and Inno but if the community overall would agree, lets say 80% of all fans would say Serral is the greatest ever. It would become regarded as truth not matter what we would say about it, Serral would go down in history as the greatest thats just how things work.
?
It's not a popularity contest, but greatness is determined by popular consensus?
On April 26 2019 21:46 BerserkSword wrote: shuffleblade is correct
according to the OP, the goal of this tournament was NOT to be a popularity contest
Yes, and that specific definition is a contest based on popularity. Does this contest use any metrics other than popular vote?
On April 26 2019 21:46 BerserkSword wrote:If they voted on good faith for who they actually think is more skilled, then it is not a popularity contest. If people voted for scarlett because she is their favorite player, then yea this has devolved, at least in-part into a popularity contest
"If they voted in good faith for who they think..."
100% a popularity contest. There are three distinct calls to personal interpretation in that sentence alone. This is entirely dependent on popular vote based on personal and subjective merits.
A popular vote isn't the same thing as a popularity vote (even if some partisanship exists). By your criteria, judging for olympic diving could be argued to merely be a popularity contest since the judging criteria aren't wholly objective.
Indeed I could, but in that circumstance you're using a small panel of expert judges with pre-agreed criteria, so that's a very circumscribed population for your popularity contest. The difference resides within the agreed upon authority of the judges, and if people do not respect that authority, then the distinction vanishes rapidly. Again, the nature of a contest resides within its structure.
But never mind all that, I'm sensing that explaining this may prove futile. I am more curious to know, if this isn't a popularity contest, what do you think it is?
Match 13 :Bomber vs Genius Bomber: 1 WCS season, 1 WCS America, 2 Redbull battle ground, 1 MLG, 1 code A, one of the great macro Terran of Korea, after solid results in Korea he decided to go play in America and was one of the terror of the foreign scene, including legendary battles vs Scarlett.
Genius Blizzcon 2010 champion, 1 GSL final, he was one of the first to establish Korean dominance in SC2 with his Blizzcon win then remained a very solid Code S player for all WOL, playing in 9 of the 10 first code S. During his GSL final run he lost only a single map to anyone not name DRG (whom he face 3 time during the same GSL), including 3-0 over MC and aLive in the playoff.
Match 14:NesTea vs Symbol NesTea: 3 GSL, 1 Blizzcon final, builder of a lot of baneling, he's the only player to ever make a perfect GSL run and was the most dominant GSL player in his first year, winning 3 of the first 7 GSL seasons, and was the first Korean SC2 true star. As one of the oldest SC2 player to find success he was known for his very smart and innovative plays. He stuck around years after his dominance, continuing to make runs in WCS America until 2014.
Symbol: 1 GSL final, 1 MLG final, 1HSC final and 1 Iron Squid final, perhaps the grand-dad of korean zerg kong in SC2, while a true master of Broodlord-Infestor, he stayed a strong player in HOTS, but failed to make the same impact as in 2012. He's also the first person to perform a reverse all-kill in GSTL.
Match 15:Polt vs Revival Polt: 4 WCS championship, 1GSL ST, 1 MLG and more, the only player to win premier tournaments in 6 consecutive years, a player at his best in frantic and scrappy games and very happy to open the game with bio harassment creating many great games. Nickname Captain America after his move to the US he was frequently over performing expectation in global event against other Koreans.
Revival: 1 IEM, 1 WCS America final, despite never making it into code S in Korea he had good success in the WCS system, once saw a piano fall on ByuL head.
Match 16Neeb vs NaNiwa Neeb: 3 WCS, 1 Kespa Cup, 1 WCS winter, 1 GSL semi-final, the first non-korean to win a Starcraft event in Korea since 2000 on the back of the best PvP in the world, won 3 out of the 4 WCS stop in 2017, got screw of all his record by Serral, the best NA players almost none stop since LOTV.
NaNiwa: 2 MLG, 1TSL final, 1Dreamhack final and 1 MLG final, a "controversial" (gently puton) figure in the scene, his very strong play can't be forgotten. He was one of the only foreigner able to keep up with Korean before LOTV and he's the only non-korean to make it into Blizzcon on even ground with Koreans.
100% a popularity contest. There are three distinct calls to personal interpretation in that sentence alone. This is entirely dependent on popular vote based on personal and subjective merits.
that doesn't make it a popularity contest. If it would be a popularity contest the question would be "which player do you like the most" and not "which player do you think is the greatest"
Yes it does. Whether or not something is a popularity contest isn't based on the phrasing of the question, that's ridiculous. The sole method for winning this contest is to be the most popular option. It is a popularity contest. The nature of the contest is in its structure.
On April 24 2019 19:46 Elmonti wrote: this is not a popularity contest...
This is exactly a popularity contest.
If you want to know who the best player of StarCraft is, have them play StarCraft. Anything else is subjective. And even matching players isn't going to be satisfyingly objective, because upsets happen, various tournaments are valued differently, maps or patches can be racially imbalanced, different periods of StarCraft's history are valued differently, and so on.
Show a minimum of courage and stand by your own opinion instead of pretending it's some measure of objectivity.
Alternatively, prove your opinion objectively. But obviously that will never happen, because it can never happen.
Greetings, this is not a popularity contest.
Lets start with the philosophical question of what is a popularity contest. Yes, well it is a contest were the winner is decided by people voting for whom the LIKE best.
From what I understand this contest is won by the player that the most people voted for being the greatest.
Personally when I vote for which player i like best or which player is the greatest historically that often leads to two different votes. Tell me if I'm wrong but I thought I was supposed to vote for the greatest player, not my favorite player? If the answer is vote for your favorite one this is a popularity contest otherwise not.
For reference greatness cannot be decided by a match of starcraft, greatness is something that will ALWAYS be subjective in a game with such a long spanning history as sc2. Which player had the highest peak? Which player was the most consistent over time? Which outside factors should be taken into account (broken body, return from military, lacking a team and so on) and how much of an impact should they have? Which scene is the most competetive, which time span in history was the most competetive, which tournaments were the most impressive to win? How much more or less of an accomplishment should a WCS win be considered compared to GSL/IEM/WESG and so on.
That is why greatness is always decided by the fans, not only by counting trophies. At the moment I would say sc2 doesn't have a greatest player ever, because the community is split and there is never a "right" answer to this question, only the most popular answer. When the majority agrees that somehow it becomes true but in reality its never truth, its always subjective. In that way this contest, even though lighthearted and done mainly for fun will actually in a way show who seems to be closest to the greatest player of all time at the moment.
Take Serral for example, his results are bland in comparison to Maru and Inno but if the community overall would agree, lets say 80% of all fans would say Serral is the greatest ever. It would become regarded as truth not matter what we would say about it, Serral would go down in history as the greatest thats just how things work.
?
It's not a popularity contest, but greatness is determined by popular consensus?
On April 26 2019 21:46 BerserkSword wrote: shuffleblade is correct
according to the OP, the goal of this tournament was NOT to be a popularity contest
Yes, and that specific definition is a contest based on popularity. Does this contest use any metrics other than popular vote?
On April 26 2019 21:46 BerserkSword wrote:If they voted on good faith for who they actually think is more skilled, then it is not a popularity contest. If people voted for scarlett because she is their favorite player, then yea this has devolved, at least in-part into a popularity contest
"If they voted in good faith for who they think..."
100% a popularity contest. There are three distinct calls to personal interpretation in that sentence alone. This is entirely dependent on popular vote based on personal and subjective merits.
A popular vote isn't the same thing as a popularity vote (even if some partisanship exists). By your criteria, judging for olympic diving could be argued to merely be a popularity contest since the judging criteria aren't wholly objective.
Indeed I could, but in that circumstance you're using a small panel of expert judges with pre-agreed criteria, so that's a very circumscribed population for your popularity contest. The difference resides within the agreed upon authority of the judges, and if people do not respect that authority, then the distinction vanishes rapidly. Again, the nature of a contest resides within its structure.
But never mind all that, I'm sensing that explaining this may prove futile. I am more curious to know, if this isn't a popularity contest, what do you think it is?
It's just a popular contest about who the greatest player is. Whether something is a popularity contest or not depends not on the structure (and really the number of judges is just a difference of degree not kind--I wouldn't consider it a structural difference) , but rather on the nature of the criterion being applied.
Naniwa has been a jerk to me in the most random situations in twitch chat. Thought he was kinda bad ass for years but these days simply find him unpleasant. I also think neeb's results have been more impressive but maybe i'm just biased because I like him more as a person. Regardless, my vote is for neeb
On April 30 2019 03:30 dswarm wrote: Naniwa has been a jerk to me in the most random situations in twitch chat. Thought he was kinda bad ass for years but these days simply find him unpleasant. I also think neeb's results have been more impressive but maybe i'm just biased because I like him more as a person. Regardless, my vote is for neeb
I voted for Nani because he was a threat to Koreans back then, we can't say that about Neeb. But when Neeb's on fire he can, which sadly happens only from time to time.
On April 30 2019 03:30 dswarm wrote: Naniwa has been a jerk to me in the most random situations in twitch chat. Thought he was kinda bad ass for years but these days simply find him unpleasant. I also think neeb's results have been more impressive but maybe i'm just biased because I like him more as a person. Regardless, my vote is for neeb
I voted for Nani because he was a threat to Koreans back then, we can't say that about Neeb. But when Neeb's on fire he can, which sadly happens only from time to time.
I’d consider Neeb more of a consistent threat to the best Koreans though. Totally different eras of course, so hard to compare
On April 30 2019 03:30 dswarm wrote: Naniwa has been a jerk to me in the most random situations in twitch chat. Thought he was kinda bad ass for years but these days simply find him unpleasant. I also think neeb's results have been more impressive but maybe i'm just biased because I like him more as a person. Regardless, my vote is for neeb
I voted for Nani because he was a threat to Koreans back then, we can't say that about Neeb. But when Neeb's on fire he can, which sadly happens only from time to time.
I’d consider Neeb more of a consistent threat to the best Koreans though. Totally different eras of course, so hard to compare
Depends on which era of Nani we're lookin, he covers pre-KeSPA too and then he was a threat except to GSL top 16 I would say. SImilarly to Neeb today, but he was winning some tourneys(he beat NESTEA!@$!$!%!@%!@%!@%!) and he got some nice 2nd places(against Life). Depends.
On April 30 2019 03:30 dswarm wrote: Naniwa has been a jerk to me in the most random situations in twitch chat. Thought he was kinda bad ass for years but these days simply find him unpleasant. I also think neeb's results have been more impressive but maybe i'm just biased because I like him more as a person. Regardless, my vote is for neeb
I voted for Nani because he was a threat to Koreans back then, we can't say that about Neeb. But when Neeb's on fire he can, which sadly happens only from time to time.
I’d consider Neeb more of a consistent threat to the best Koreans though. Totally different eras of course, so hard to compare
Depends on which era of Nani we're lookin, he covers pre-KeSPA too and then he was a threat except to GSL top 16 I would say. SImilarly to Neeb today, but he was winning some tourneys(he beat NESTEA!@$!$!%!@%!@%!@%!) and he got some nice 2nd places(against Life). Depends.
I would say Neeb is a threat to koreans considering that he won KeSpa Cup and he reached the semifinals in Code S. What we can agree of is that he is very matchup reliant: his best one is among the best in the world(PvP back then and PvZ now) are among the best in the world while his others just can't compare.
On April 30 2019 03:30 dswarm wrote: Naniwa has been a jerk to me in the most random situations in twitch chat. Thought he was kinda bad ass for years but these days simply find him unpleasant. I also think neeb's results have been more impressive but maybe i'm just biased because I like him more as a person. Regardless, my vote is for neeb
I voted for Nani because he was a threat to Koreans back then, we can't say that about Neeb. But when Neeb's on fire he can, which sadly happens only from time to time.
I’d consider Neeb more of a consistent threat to the best Koreans though. Totally different eras of course, so hard to compare
Depends on which era of Nani we're lookin, he covers pre-KeSPA too and then he was a threat except to GSL top 16 I would say. SImilarly to Neeb today, but he was winning some tourneys(he beat NESTEA!@$!$!%!@%!@%!@%!) and he got some nice 2nd places(against Life). Depends.
I would say Neeb is a threat to koreans considering that he won KeSpa Cup and he reached the semifinals in Code S. What we can agree of is that he is very matchup reliant: his best one is among the best in the world(PvP back then and PvZ now) are among the best in the world while his others just can't compare.
Hmmm. He was fairly close to beating TY. Also, being better at one matchup than at another doesn't mean you are awful at them. I mean, there are players that are one trick ponies, but Neeb clearly isn't. Even in his Code S run he beat Rogue (and a bunch of non-top Koreans as well as Reynor).
On April 30 2019 03:30 dswarm wrote: Naniwa has been a jerk to me in the most random situations in twitch chat. Thought he was kinda bad ass for years but these days simply find him unpleasant. I also think neeb's results have been more impressive but maybe i'm just biased because I like him more as a person. Regardless, my vote is for neeb
I voted for Nani because he was a threat to Koreans back then, we can't say that about Neeb. But when Neeb's on fire he can, which sadly happens only from time to time.
I’d consider Neeb more of a consistent threat to the best Koreans though. Totally different eras of course, so hard to compare
Depends on which era of Nani we're lookin, he covers pre-KeSPA too and then he was a threat except to GSL top 16 I would say. SImilarly to Neeb today, but he was winning some tourneys(he beat NESTEA!@$!$!%!@%!@%!@%!) and he got some nice 2nd places(against Life). Depends.
I would say Neeb is a threat to koreans considering that he won KeSpa Cup and he reached the semifinals in Code S. What we can agree of is that he is very matchup reliant: his best one is among the best in the world(PvP back then and PvZ now) are among the best in the world while his others just can't compare.
Hmmm. He was fairly close to beating TY. Also, being better at one matchup than at another doesn't mean you are awful at them. I mean, there are players that are one trick ponies, but Neeb clearly isn't. Even in his Code S run he beat Rogue (and a bunch of non-top Koreans as well as Reynor).
When I say koreans I mean top koreans. If his other matchups were as good as his PvZ he would literally be Protoss Serral; I voted for Neeb but it was one hard decision.
On April 30 2019 03:30 dswarm wrote: Naniwa has been a jerk to me in the most random situations in twitch chat. Thought he was kinda bad ass for years but these days simply find him unpleasant. I also think neeb's results have been more impressive but maybe i'm just biased because I like him more as a person. Regardless, my vote is for neeb
I voted for Nani because he was a threat to Koreans back then, we can't say that about Neeb. But when Neeb's on fire he can, which sadly happens only from time to time.
I’d consider Neeb more of a consistent threat to the best Koreans though. Totally different eras of course, so hard to compare
Depends on which era of Nani we're lookin, he covers pre-KeSPA too and then he was a threat except to GSL top 16 I would say. SImilarly to Neeb today, but he was winning some tourneys(he beat NESTEA!@$!$!%!@%!@%!@%!) and he got some nice 2nd places(against Life). Depends.
I would say Neeb is a threat to koreans considering that he won KeSpa Cup and he reached the semifinals in Code S. What we can agree of is that he is very matchup reliant: his best one is among the best in the world(PvP back then and PvZ now) are among the best in the world while his others just can't compare.
Hmmm. He was fairly close to beating TY. Also, being better at one matchup than at another doesn't mean you are awful at them. I mean, there are players that are one trick ponies, but Neeb clearly isn't. Even in his Code S run he beat Rogue (and a bunch of non-top Koreans as well as Reynor).
He beat a RO8 Rogue. Other than a teamkill this was a free run into RO4 (I can see Rogue putting up a fight against a teammate)
Personally I think Neeb has actually done better against top koreans than Nani did, won kespa cup, semifinals GSL and over all good placements in other weekenders. Besides Serral he is the top foreign threat to koreans. Sure his form is a bit on and off but its never really bad, just sometimes not amazing.
I don't like Naniwa but voted for him because love/him hate him, he was a force to be reckoned with and was a great threat to koreans at that time. You could say that he was one of the pillars that helped foreigners in years to come.
On April 30 2019 03:30 dswarm wrote: Naniwa has been a jerk to me in the most random situations in twitch chat. Thought he was kinda bad ass for years but these days simply find him unpleasant. I also think neeb's results have been more impressive but maybe i'm just biased because I like him more as a person. Regardless, my vote is for neeb
I voted for Nani because he was a threat to Koreans back then, we can't say that about Neeb. But when Neeb's on fire he can, which sadly happens only from time to time.
I’d consider Neeb more of a consistent threat to the best Koreans though. Totally different eras of course, so hard to compare
Depends on which era of Nani we're lookin, he covers pre-KeSPA too and then he was a threat except to GSL top 16 I would say. SImilarly to Neeb today, but he was winning some tourneys(he beat NESTEA!@$!$!%!@%!@%!@%!) and he got some nice 2nd places(against Life). Depends.
I would say Neeb is a threat to koreans considering that he won KeSpa Cup and he reached the semifinals in Code S. What we can agree of is that he is very matchup reliant: his best one is among the best in the world(PvP back then and PvZ now) are among the best in the world while his others just can't compare.
Hmmm. He was fairly close to beating TY. Also, being better at one matchup than at another doesn't mean you are awful at them. I mean, there are players that are one trick ponies, but Neeb clearly isn't. Even in his Code S run he beat Rogue (and a bunch of non-top Koreans as well as Reynor).
He beat a RO8 Rogue. Other than a teamkill this was a free run into RO4 (I can see Rogue putting up a fight against a teammate)
In literally EVERY thread on TL you post how hard GSL is, how only the best play, how it is the hardest that ever existed, how only a bonjwa and his mother can win and now you come with THIS? Are you serious?? And yes I have seen your overused clown smiley
I will USE that post against you in every WCS vs GSL discussion! Evar!
EPT
(I can see Rogue putting up a fight against a teammate)
