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Elentos
55566 Posts
On April 24 2019 09:38 ZigguratOfUr wrote: My biggest complaint is using red for INno and blue for Serral. Should be the other way around. Objection your honor, there's no red in the Finnish flag. | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On April 26 2019 03:59 ZigguratOfUr wrote: And judging by skill/talent/ability you don't think that Scarlett or Special are among the 128 best players to touch the game? I never said that about scarlett and special. According to the first post of this thread, the point of this is to determine THE greatest player of all time. singular. while I do think scarlett and special are excellent players, and i love them for repping my north america, the fact of the matter is that they are nowhere near THE greatest players of all time. and yet, they are getting a lion's share of discussion compared to someone like Life, the greatest player of his era at the very least and arguably the GOAT in terms of talent/skill It's like ignoring Tom Brady in the GOAT football player discussion since he was convicted in the deflate gate scandal, which is absurd. In fact it's even worse, because Life's offense only affected games he lost, not won. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On April 26 2019 04:50 Elentos wrote: Objection your honor, there's no red in the Finnish flag. Sustained. I was about to overrule it on grounds that it's the wrong blue for Finland, but Wikipedia assures me that "it may be substituted for heraldic tincture azure". | ||
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On April 24 2019 19:46 Elmonti wrote: this is not a popularity contest... This is exactly a popularity contest. If you want to know who the best player of StarCraft is, have them play StarCraft. Anything else is subjective. And even matching players isn't going to be satisfyingly objective, because upsets happen, various tournaments are valued differently, maps or patches can be racially imbalanced, different periods of StarCraft's history are valued differently, and so on. Show a minimum of courage and stand by your own opinion instead of pretending it's some measure of objectivity. Alternatively, prove your opinion objectively. But obviously that will never happen, because it can never happen. | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On April 26 2019 09:51 Fanatic-Templar wrote: This is exactly a popularity contest. If you want to know who the best player of StarCraft is, have them play StarCraft. Anything else is subjective. And even matching players isn't going to be satisfyingly objective, because upsets happen, various tournaments are valued differently, maps or patches can be racially imbalanced, different periods of StarCraft's history are valued differently, and so on. Show a minimum of courage and stand by your own opinion instead of pretending it's some measure of objectivity. Alternatively, prove your opinion objectively. But obviously that will never happen, because it can never happen. Greetings, this is not a popularity contest. Lets start with the philosophical question of what is a popularity contest. Yes, well it is a contest were the winner is decided by people voting for whom the LIKE best. From what I understand this contest is won by the player that the most people voted for being the greatest. Personally when I vote for which player i like best or which player is the greatest historically that often leads to two different votes. Tell me if I'm wrong but I thought I was supposed to vote for the greatest player, not my favorite player? If the answer is vote for your favorite one this is a popularity contest otherwise not. For reference greatness cannot be decided by a match of starcraft, greatness is something that will ALWAYS be subjective in a game with such a long spanning history as sc2. Which player had the highest peak? Which player was the most consistent over time? Which outside factors should be taken into account (broken body, return from military, lacking a team and so on) and how much of an impact should they have? Which scene is the most competetive, which time span in history was the most competetive, which tournaments were the most impressive to win? How much more or less of an accomplishment should a WCS win be considered compared to GSL/IEM/WESG and so on. That is why greatness is always decided by the fans, not only by counting trophies. At the moment I would say sc2 doesn't have a greatest player ever, because the community is split and there is never a "right" answer to this question, only the most popular answer. When the majority agrees that somehow it becomes true but in reality its never truth, its always subjective. In that way this contest, even though lighthearted and done mainly for fun will actually in a way show who seems to be closest to the greatest player of all time at the moment. Take Serral for example, his results are bland in comparison to Maru and Inno but if the community overall would agree, lets say 80% of all fans would say Serral is the greatest ever. It would become regarded as truth not matter what we would say about it, Serral would go down in history as the greatest thats just how things work. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7117 Posts
On April 26 2019 17:25 Shuffleblade wrote: Greetings, this is not a popularity contest. Lets start with the philosophical question of what is a popularity contest. Yes, well it is a contest were the winner is decided by people voting for whom the LIKE best. From what I understand this contest is won by the player that the most people voted for being the greatest. Personally when I vote for which player i like best or which player is the greatest historically that often leads to two different votes. Tell me if I'm wrong but I thought I was supposed to vote for the greatest player, not my favorite player? If the answer is vote for your favorite one this is a popularity contest otherwise not. For reference greatness cannot be decided by a match of starcraft, greatness is something that will ALWAYS be subjective in a game with such a long spanning history as sc2. Which player had the highest peak? Which player was the most consistent over time? Which outside factors should be taken into account (broken body, return from military, lacking a team and so on) and how much of an impact should they have? Which scene is the most competetive, which time span in history was the most competetive, which tournaments were the most impressive to win? How much more or less of an accomplishment should a WCS win be considered compared to GSL/IEM/WESG and so on. That is why greatness is always decided by the fans, not only by counting trophies. At the moment I would say sc2 doesn't have a greatest player ever, because the community is split and there is never a "right" answer to this question, only the most popular answer. When the majority agrees that somehow it becomes true but in reality its never truth, its always subjective. In that way this contest, even though lighthearted and done mainly for fun will actually in a way show who seems to be closest to the greatest player of all time at the moment. Take Serral for example, his results are bland in comparison to Maru and Inno but if the community overall would agree, lets say 80% of all fans would say Serral is the greatest ever. It would become regarded as truth not matter what we would say about it, Serral would go down in history as the greatest thats just how things work. I don't understand that. You state it's nota popularity contests and then you list all the reasons why it is a popularity contest?  | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On April 26 2019 17:25 Shuffleblade wrote: Greetings, this is not a popularity contest. Lets start with the philosophical question of what is a popularity contest. Yes, well it is a contest were the winner is decided by people voting for whom the LIKE best. From what I understand this contest is won by the player that the most people voted for being the greatest. Personally when I vote for which player i like best or which player is the greatest historically that often leads to two different votes. Tell me if I'm wrong but I thought I was supposed to vote for the greatest player, not my favorite player? If the answer is vote for your favorite one this is a popularity contest otherwise not. For reference greatness cannot be decided by a match of starcraft, greatness is something that will ALWAYS be subjective in a game with such a long spanning history as sc2. Which player had the highest peak? Which player was the most consistent over time? Which outside factors should be taken into account (broken body, return from military, lacking a team and so on) and how much of an impact should they have? Which scene is the most competetive, which time span in history was the most competetive, which tournaments were the most impressive to win? How much more or less of an accomplishment should a WCS win be considered compared to GSL/IEM/WESG and so on. That is why greatness is always decided by the fans, not only by counting trophies. At the moment I would say sc2 doesn't have a greatest player ever, because the community is split and there is never a "right" answer to this question, only the most popular answer. When the majority agrees that somehow it becomes true but in reality its never truth, its always subjective. In that way this contest, even though lighthearted and done mainly for fun will actually in a way show who seems to be closest to the greatest player of all time at the moment. Take Serral for example, his results are bland in comparison to Maru and Inno but if the community overall would agree, lets say 80% of all fans would say Serral is the greatest ever. It would become regarded as truth not matter what we would say about it, Serral would go down in history as the greatest thats just how things work. What the heck did I just read? :D And that last paragraph, LOL | ||
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On April 26 2019 17:25 Shuffleblade wrote: Greetings, this is not a popularity contest. Lets start with the philosophical question of what is a popularity contest. Yes, well it is a contest were the winner is decided by people voting for whom the LIKE best. From what I understand this contest is won by the player that the most people voted for being the greatest. Personally when I vote for which player i like best or which player is the greatest historically that often leads to two different votes. Tell me if I'm wrong but I thought I was supposed to vote for the greatest player, not my favorite player? If the answer is vote for your favorite one this is a popularity contest otherwise not. For reference greatness cannot be decided by a match of starcraft, greatness is something that will ALWAYS be subjective in a game with such a long spanning history as sc2. Which player had the highest peak? Which player was the most consistent over time? Which outside factors should be taken into account (broken body, return from military, lacking a team and so on) and how much of an impact should they have? Which scene is the most competetive, which time span in history was the most competetive, which tournaments were the most impressive to win? How much more or less of an accomplishment should a WCS win be considered compared to GSL/IEM/WESG and so on. That is why greatness is always decided by the fans, not only by counting trophies. At the moment I would say sc2 doesn't have a greatest player ever, because the community is split and there is never a "right" answer to this question, only the most popular answer. When the majority agrees that somehow it becomes true but in reality its never truth, its always subjective. In that way this contest, even though lighthearted and done mainly for fun will actually in a way show who seems to be closest to the greatest player of all time at the moment. Take Serral for example, his results are bland in comparison to Maru and Inno but if the community overall would agree, lets say 80% of all fans would say Serral is the greatest ever. It would become regarded as truth not matter what we would say about it, Serral would go down in history as the greatest thats just how things work. Fair enough | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 26 2019 17:25 Shuffleblade wrote: Greetings, this is not a popularity contest. Lets start with the philosophical question of what is a popularity contest. Yes, well it is a contest were the winner is decided by people voting for whom the LIKE best. From what I understand this contest is won by the player that the most people voted for being the greatest. Personally when I vote for which player i like best or which player is the greatest historically that often leads to two different votes. Tell me if I'm wrong but I thought I was supposed to vote for the greatest player, not my favorite player? If the answer is vote for your favorite one this is a popularity contest otherwise not. For reference greatness cannot be decided by a match of starcraft, greatness is something that will ALWAYS be subjective in a game with such a long spanning history as sc2. Which player had the highest peak? Which player was the most consistent over time? Which outside factors should be taken into account (broken body, return from military, lacking a team and so on) and how much of an impact should they have? Which scene is the most competetive, which time span in history was the most competetive, which tournaments were the most impressive to win? How much more or less of an accomplishment should a WCS win be considered compared to GSL/IEM/WESG and so on. That is why greatness is always decided by the fans, not only by counting trophies. At the moment I would say sc2 doesn't have a greatest player ever, because the community is split and there is never a "right" answer to this question, only the most popular answer. When the majority agrees that somehow it becomes true but in reality its never truth, its always subjective. In that way this contest, even though lighthearted and done mainly for fun will actually in a way show who seems to be closest to the greatest player of all time at the moment. Take Serral for example, his results are bland in comparison to Maru and Inno but if the community overall would agree, lets say 80% of all fans would say Serral is the greatest ever. It would become regarded as truth not matter what we would say about it, Serral would go down in history as the greatest thats just how things work. So what you saying is, that if Serral fans are big enough group he's the greatest but it is definitively NOT a popularity contest? Interesting, maybe I didn't understand you. | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On April 26 2019 20:04 deacon.frost wrote: So what you saying is, that if Serral fans are big enough group he's the greatest but it is definitively NOT a popularity contest? Interesting, maybe I didn't understand you. I think maybe we define popularity contest in different way, a popularity contest for me is about who is the most popular. Which player we like more, where as people can actually dislike a player but still regard him/her as the greatest player ever. Imagine if Serral would have been Naniwa or Idra, a player can be regarded as the greatest ever while still not being popular, not being liked. It is a "popularity" contest in the way that it is decided by subjective opinions but it is not in the way that it is decided by actual popularity. Imagine the contest was about which player is the best at throwing games, is it a popularity contest? It is decided by subjective opinion but its not about which player is the most popular. | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
according to the OP, the goal of this tournament was NOT to be a popularity contest https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/popularity contest Popularity contest has a specific definition. Like shuffleblade said, it is not merely something that is decided with a popular vote. It can be argued that this tournament has turned into a popularity contest (for that we would need to know why people voted the way they did) If they voted on good faith for who they actually think is more skilled, then it is not a popularity contest. If people voted for scarlett because she is their favorite player, then yea this has devolved, at least in-part into a popularity contest | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26359 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany16057 Posts
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Acrofales
Spain18234 Posts
On April 26 2019 21:46 BerserkSword wrote: shuffleblade is correct according to the OP, the goal of this tournament was NOT to be a popularity contest https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/popularity contest Popularity contest has a specific definition. Like shuffleblade said, it is not merely something that is decided with a popular vote. It can be argued that this tournament has turned into a popularity contest (for that we would need to know why people voted the way they did) If they voted on good faith for who they actually think is more skilled, then it is not a popularity contest. If people voted for scarlett because she is their favorite player, then yea this has devolved, at least in-part into a popularity contest Skill alone is also not the definition of greatness. Otherwise you could make a case for MKP or even Bomber being the GOAT. But I suspect they'll both be knocked out pretty soon. | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On April 26 2019 22:08 Acrofales wrote: Skill alone is also not the definition of greatness. Otherwise you could make a case for MKP or even Bomber being the GOAT. But I suspect they'll both be knocked out pretty soon. I am going by the parameters suggested in the OP first post mentioned: "best and brightest SC2 players" "The players are chosen almost only base on their Premier Tournament performance" "When was the highest skill era?" all related to skill/mastery/prowess/what have you, in SC2 That said, regardless of criteria someone chooses to define greatness, it still isnt a popularity contest if the voter is judging based on those criteria to the best of his/her ability. that is my point | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On April 26 2019 17:25 Shuffleblade wrote: Greetings, this is not a popularity contest. Lets start with the philosophical question of what is a popularity contest. Yes, well it is a contest were the winner is decided by people voting for whom the LIKE best. From what I understand this contest is won by the player that the most people voted for being the greatest. Personally when I vote for which player i like best or which player is the greatest historically that often leads to two different votes. Tell me if I'm wrong but I thought I was supposed to vote for the greatest player, not my favorite player? If the answer is vote for your favorite one this is a popularity contest otherwise not. For reference greatness cannot be decided by a match of starcraft, greatness is something that will ALWAYS be subjective in a game with such a long spanning history as sc2. Which player had the highest peak? Which player was the most consistent over time? Which outside factors should be taken into account (broken body, return from military, lacking a team and so on) and how much of an impact should they have? Which scene is the most competetive, which time span in history was the most competetive, which tournaments were the most impressive to win? How much more or less of an accomplishment should a WCS win be considered compared to GSL/IEM/WESG and so on. That is why greatness is always decided by the fans, not only by counting trophies. At the moment I would say sc2 doesn't have a greatest player ever, because the community is split and there is never a "right" answer to this question, only the most popular answer. When the majority agrees that somehow it becomes true but in reality its never truth, its always subjective. In that way this contest, even though lighthearted and done mainly for fun will actually in a way show who seems to be closest to the greatest player of all time at the moment. Take Serral for example, his results are bland in comparison to Maru and Inno but if the community overall would agree, lets say 80% of all fans would say Serral is the greatest ever. It would become regarded as truth not matter what we would say about it, Serral would go down in history as the greatest thats just how things work. ? It's not a popularity contest, but greatness is determined by popular consensus? On April 26 2019 21:46 BerserkSword wrote: shuffleblade is correct according to the OP, the goal of this tournament was NOT to be a popularity contest https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/popularity contest Popularity contest has a specific definition. Yes, and that specific definition is a contest based on popularity. Does this contest use any metrics other than popular vote? On April 26 2019 21:46 BerserkSword wrote:If they voted on good faith for who they actually think is more skilled, then it is not a popularity contest. If people voted for scarlett because she is their favorite player, then yea this has devolved, at least in-part into a popularity contest "If they voted in good faith for who they think..." 100% a popularity contest. There are three distinct calls to personal interpretation in that sentence alone. This is entirely dependent on popular vote based on personal and subjective merits. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16057 Posts
On April 27 2019 02:33 Fanatic-Templar wrote: 100% a popularity contest. There are three distinct calls to personal interpretation in that sentence alone. This is entirely dependent on popular vote based on personal and subjective merits. that doesn't make it a popularity contest. If it would be a popularity contest the question would be "which player do you like the most" and not "which player do you think is the greatest" | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On April 27 2019 02:33 Fanatic-Templar wrote: ? It's not a popularity contest, but greatness is determined by popular consensus? Yes, and that specific definition is a contest based on popularity. Does this contest use any metrics other than popular vote? "If they voted in good faith for who they think..." 100% a popularity contest. There are three distinct calls to personal interpretation in that sentence alone. This is entirely dependent on popular vote based on personal and subjective merits. A popular vote isn't the same thing as a popularity vote (even if some partisanship exists). By your criteria, judging for olympic diving could be argued to merely be a popularity contest since the judging criteria aren't wholly objective. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
In any case we had the same number of days to vote with last time update also being a day early. With that said, here are the results! Match 9  Liquid HerO: 54 votes FruitDealer: 15 votesLiquid HerO goes through! Match 10 soO: 73 votes ThorZaIN: 3 votessoO goes through!Match 11 herO: 55 votesScarlett: 29 votesEven the legions of the Scarlett Fan club couldn't come to her rescue, as herO comes out ahead and progress to the round of 32Match 12 Dark: 74 votesStarDust: 1 voteDark goes through! | ||
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