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On November 27 2018 00:55 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 00:41 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 00:34 Xain0n wrote:
Lol. At worst i could take out soO,, Stats, Mma, Nestea and Rain from Anc1ent's list and acknowledge Polt and TaeJa from Chairosaur's with Serral being #10 but i wouldn't be exactly convinced. You must be joking. Stats has 19 top 4 finishes playing in the hardest region with 3 tier 1 tournament wins and an insane proleague record. If you think Serral's record is more impressive than this I won't take anything you say serious anymore. Not even speaking of soO......... soO is Yellow's direct heir; amazing consistency and impressive skill level into very few victories. Stats is the most consistent player in LoTV and a serious contender, but was he really the best in the world in a given moment? You then think Stork was better than Oov? On the other hand, you come up with Rogue and Dear(great players, i'm not here to deny this) who displayed level of dominance similar to Serral for a fraction of the time he has been? The difference is the prominence that you give to koreans tournament that it is effectively a factor, but nowhere as great as you are esteeming; if Serral was korean you'd be already calling him top 3 player.
I don't think TaeJa is a top 10 player and he has won almost twice as many tournaments as Serral not to mention double GSL semis and his IPL TAC performance. No if Serral would be korean I wouldn't call him a top 3 player lol............
You however wouldn't call him even a top 20 player if he was korean.
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On November 27 2018 00:59 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 00:55 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 00:41 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 00:34 Xain0n wrote:
Lol. At worst i could take out soO,, Stats, Mma, Nestea and Rain from Anc1ent's list and acknowledge Polt and TaeJa from Chairosaur's with Serral being #10 but i wouldn't be exactly convinced. You must be joking. Stats has 19 top 4 finishes playing in the hardest region with 3 tier 1 tournament wins and an insane proleague record. If you think Serral's record is more impressive than this I won't take anything you say serious anymore. Not even speaking of soO......... soO is Yellow's direct heir; amazing consistency and impressive skill level into very few victories. Stats is the most consistent player in LoTV and a serious contender, but was he really the best in the world in a given moment? You then think Stork was better than Oov? On the other hand, you come up with Rogue and Dear(great players, i'm not here to deny this) who displayed level of dominance similar to Serral for a fraction of the time he has been? The difference is the prominence that you give to koreans tournament that it is effectively a factor, but nowhere as great as you are esteeming; if Serral was korean you'd be already calling him top 3 player. I don't think TaeJa is a top 10 player and he has won almost twice as many tournaments as Serral not to mention double GSL semis and his IPL TAC performance. No if Serral would be korean I wouldn't call him a top 3 player lol............
That's just the way you see things. TaeJa in my opinion still has better achievements than Serral and definitely is a top 10 player; he didn't win BlizzCon and(that's why you don't value him that high) he didn't win a Code S, but he is first when it comes to tournament wins.
It's very hard to come to unanimous consensus when judging achievements, there are many factors to be considered: level of dominance, consistency, number of victories, importance of tournaments won, level of the competition, career money earnings.
I think you misjudged me as well, i would be amazed if i'd have witnessed a korean zerg winning as much without falling prey to matchfixing temptations; that Serral is a foreigner makes things more exciting as he is the first non korean to become the best Sc2 player in the world, but it has zero influence on me when i value his achievements.
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On November 27 2018 01:09 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 00:59 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 00:55 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 00:41 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 00:34 Xain0n wrote:
Lol. At worst i could take out soO,, Stats, Mma, Nestea and Rain from Anc1ent's list and acknowledge Polt and TaeJa from Chairosaur's with Serral being #10 but i wouldn't be exactly convinced. You must be joking. Stats has 19 top 4 finishes playing in the hardest region with 3 tier 1 tournament wins and an insane proleague record. If you think Serral's record is more impressive than this I won't take anything you say serious anymore. Not even speaking of soO......... soO is Yellow's direct heir; amazing consistency and impressive skill level into very few victories. Stats is the most consistent player in LoTV and a serious contender, but was he really the best in the world in a given moment? You then think Stork was better than Oov? On the other hand, you come up with Rogue and Dear(great players, i'm not here to deny this) who displayed level of dominance similar to Serral for a fraction of the time he has been? The difference is the prominence that you give to koreans tournament that it is effectively a factor, but nowhere as great as you are esteeming; if Serral was korean you'd be already calling him top 3 player. I don't think TaeJa is a top 10 player and he has won almost twice as many tournaments as Serral not to mention double GSL semis and his IPL TAC performance. No if Serral would be korean I wouldn't call him a top 3 player lol............ That's just the way you see things. TaeJa in my opinion still has better achievements than Serral and definitely is a top 10 player; he didn't win BlizzCon and(that's why you don't value him that high) he didn't win a Code S, but he is first when it comes to tournament wins. It's very hard to come to unanimous consensus when judging achievements, there are many factors to be considered: level of dominance, consistency, number of victories, importance of tournament wons, level of the competition, career money earnings.
well, one thing I give to you. Serral has the most impressive winstreak in sc2 history and might even have the highest peak.
But for career achievements you have to look at the number of high tournament finishes and rate them against each other. Right now Serral has 2 tier 1 tournament wins, 1 tier 2 tournament win and 4 tier 3 tournament wins.
He neither has a significant amount of other high tournament finishes nor notable teamleague performances (which most top koreans have).
If I compare that to the players I listed Serral's achievements are just less impressive which is why I rate him lower. That has nothing to do with the country he's born in.
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On November 27 2018 01:16 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 01:09 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 00:59 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 00:55 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 00:41 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 00:34 Xain0n wrote:
Lol. At worst i could take out soO,, Stats, Mma, Nestea and Rain from Anc1ent's list and acknowledge Polt and TaeJa from Chairosaur's with Serral being #10 but i wouldn't be exactly convinced. You must be joking. Stats has 19 top 4 finishes playing in the hardest region with 3 tier 1 tournament wins and an insane proleague record. If you think Serral's record is more impressive than this I won't take anything you say serious anymore. Not even speaking of soO......... soO is Yellow's direct heir; amazing consistency and impressive skill level into very few victories. Stats is the most consistent player in LoTV and a serious contender, but was he really the best in the world in a given moment? You then think Stork was better than Oov? On the other hand, you come up with Rogue and Dear(great players, i'm not here to deny this) who displayed level of dominance similar to Serral for a fraction of the time he has been? The difference is the prominence that you give to koreans tournament that it is effectively a factor, but nowhere as great as you are esteeming; if Serral was korean you'd be already calling him top 3 player. I don't think TaeJa is a top 10 player and he has won almost twice as many tournaments as Serral not to mention double GSL semis and his IPL TAC performance. No if Serral would be korean I wouldn't call him a top 3 player lol............ That's just the way you see things. TaeJa in my opinion still has better achievements than Serral and definitely is a top 10 player; he didn't win BlizzCon and(that's why you don't value him that high) he didn't win a Code S, but he is first when it comes to tournament wins. It's very hard to come to unanimous consensus when judging achievements, there are many factors to be considered: level of dominance, consistency, number of victories, importance of tournament wons, level of the competition, career money earnings. well, one thing I give to you. Serral has the most impressive winstreak in sc2 history and might even have the highest peak. But for career achievements you have to look at the number of high tournament finishes and rate them against each other. Right now Serral has 2 tier 1 tournament wins, 1 tier 2 tournament win and 4 tier 3 tournament wins. He neither has a significant amount of other high tournament finishes nor notable teamleague performances (which most top koreans have). If I compare that to the players I listed Serral's achievements are just less impressive which is why I rate him lower. That has nothing to do with the country he's born in.
I don't think nowadays WCS can be considered tier 3 tournaments, it's tier 2 for me and i personally value BlizzCon as slightly more than tier 1; serious teamleagues simply don't exist at the moment, so it's hard to compare.
By mere numbers Serral doesn't have other high tournament finishes except for a WCS final loss, but that's because he simply didn't participate in many more; he has a very impressive win ratio, on the other hand.
To me, consistency is extremely good if it is crowned by at least some success: if you have 2 tier 1 victories and 3 tier 1 top 3 i regard this as more successful than having 8 losses in tier 1 finals.
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On November 27 2018 01:16 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 01:09 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 00:59 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 00:55 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 00:41 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 00:34 Xain0n wrote:
Lol. At worst i could take out soO,, Stats, Mma, Nestea and Rain from Anc1ent's list and acknowledge Polt and TaeJa from Chairosaur's with Serral being #10 but i wouldn't be exactly convinced. You must be joking. Stats has 19 top 4 finishes playing in the hardest region with 3 tier 1 tournament wins and an insane proleague record. If you think Serral's record is more impressive than this I won't take anything you say serious anymore. Not even speaking of soO......... soO is Yellow's direct heir; amazing consistency and impressive skill level into very few victories. Stats is the most consistent player in LoTV and a serious contender, but was he really the best in the world in a given moment? You then think Stork was better than Oov? On the other hand, you come up with Rogue and Dear(great players, i'm not here to deny this) who displayed level of dominance similar to Serral for a fraction of the time he has been? The difference is the prominence that you give to koreans tournament that it is effectively a factor, but nowhere as great as you are esteeming; if Serral was korean you'd be already calling him top 3 player. I don't think TaeJa is a top 10 player and he has won almost twice as many tournaments as Serral not to mention double GSL semis and his IPL TAC performance. No if Serral would be korean I wouldn't call him a top 3 player lol............ That's just the way you see things. TaeJa in my opinion still has better achievements than Serral and definitely is a top 10 player; he didn't win BlizzCon and(that's why you don't value him that high) he didn't win a Code S, but he is first when it comes to tournament wins. It's very hard to come to unanimous consensus when judging achievements, there are many factors to be considered: level of dominance, consistency, number of victories, importance of tournament wons, level of the competition, career money earnings. well, one thing I give to you. Serral has the most impressive winstreak in sc2 history and might even have the highest peak. But for career achievements you have to look at the number of high tournament finishes and rate them against each other. Right now Serral has 2 tier 1 tournament wins, 1 tier 2 tournament win and 4 tier 3 tournament wins. He neither has a significant amount of other high tournament finishes nor notable teamleague performances (which most top koreans have). If I compare that to the players I listed Serral's achievements are just less impressive which is why I rate him lower. That has nothing to do with the country he's born in.
Unless he wins the IEM i dont know why he would be considered higher, Rogue's run from Shanghai to Katowice is at least as much impressive as Serral's from GSL vs the World to HSC imo.
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On November 27 2018 00:55 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 00:41 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 00:34 Xain0n wrote:
Lol. At worst i could take out soO,, Stats, Mma, Nestea and Rain from Anc1ent's list and acknowledge Polt and TaeJa from Chairosaur's with Serral being #10 but i wouldn't be exactly convinced. You must be joking. Stats has 19 top 4 finishes playing in the hardest region with 3 tier 1 tournament wins and an insane proleague record. If you think Serral's record is more impressive than this I won't take anything you say serious anymore. Not even speaking of soO......... On the other hand, you come up with Rogue and Dear(great players, i'm not here to deny this) who displayed level of dominance similar to Serral for a fraction of the time he has been?
Rogue won four weekenders in a row against koreans (IEM, Super tournament, blizzcon, Katowice), over about six months. Serral won two in a row (GSL vs TW, blizzcon) over three months. Just because Serral was hyped for the entire year doesn't change the fact it wasn't until august that he actually showed he might be #1.
WCS Circuit wins are meaningless if you're comparing Serral to the korean players/all time greats. The fact that Rogue's streak is almost double Serral's and no one (outside of Artosis) considered him a bonjwa just shows how much easier foreigners can get it.
Even last year, people gave player of the year to INno over Rogue. But in 2018 Serral was much better than Maru because?
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On November 27 2018 03:12 DieuCure wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 01:16 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 01:09 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 00:59 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 00:55 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 00:41 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 00:34 Xain0n wrote:
Lol. At worst i could take out soO,, Stats, Mma, Nestea and Rain from Anc1ent's list and acknowledge Polt and TaeJa from Chairosaur's with Serral being #10 but i wouldn't be exactly convinced. You must be joking. Stats has 19 top 4 finishes playing in the hardest region with 3 tier 1 tournament wins and an insane proleague record. If you think Serral's record is more impressive than this I won't take anything you say serious anymore. Not even speaking of soO......... soO is Yellow's direct heir; amazing consistency and impressive skill level into very few victories. Stats is the most consistent player in LoTV and a serious contender, but was he really the best in the world in a given moment? You then think Stork was better than Oov? On the other hand, you come up with Rogue and Dear(great players, i'm not here to deny this) who displayed level of dominance similar to Serral for a fraction of the time he has been? The difference is the prominence that you give to koreans tournament that it is effectively a factor, but nowhere as great as you are esteeming; if Serral was korean you'd be already calling him top 3 player. I don't think TaeJa is a top 10 player and he has won almost twice as many tournaments as Serral not to mention double GSL semis and his IPL TAC performance. No if Serral would be korean I wouldn't call him a top 3 player lol............ That's just the way you see things. TaeJa in my opinion still has better achievements than Serral and definitely is a top 10 player; he didn't win BlizzCon and(that's why you don't value him that high) he didn't win a Code S, but he is first when it comes to tournament wins. It's very hard to come to unanimous consensus when judging achievements, there are many factors to be considered: level of dominance, consistency, number of victories, importance of tournament wons, level of the competition, career money earnings. well, one thing I give to you. Serral has the most impressive winstreak in sc2 history and might even have the highest peak. But for career achievements you have to look at the number of high tournament finishes and rate them against each other. Right now Serral has 2 tier 1 tournament wins, 1 tier 2 tournament win and 4 tier 3 tournament wins. He neither has a significant amount of other high tournament finishes nor notable teamleague performances (which most top koreans have). If I compare that to the players I listed Serral's achievements are just less impressive which is why I rate him lower. That has nothing to do with the country he's born in. Unless he wins the IEM i dont know why he would be considered higher, Rogue's run from Shanghai to Katowice is at least as much impressive as Serral's from GSL vs the World to HSC imo.
Was Rogue undefeated going 40-0? Did he win a single GSL in the process? You guys act like WCS are worth nothing, but that's utter disregard of the foreigner scene. Serral won multiple WCS during his streak.
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On November 27 2018 00:19 Charoisaur wrote:
Rogue, Dark, TaeJa, herO, Polt, Bomber, PartinG, TY, Solar, Dear, Classic
I would agree that Rogue, Dark, herO, Classic, Polt, TaeJa probably have more achievements but the rest of the list I am not very sure tbh.
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On November 27 2018 04:20 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 03:12 DieuCure wrote:On November 27 2018 01:16 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 01:09 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 00:59 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 00:55 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 00:41 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 00:34 Xain0n wrote:
Lol. At worst i could take out soO,, Stats, Mma, Nestea and Rain from Anc1ent's list and acknowledge Polt and TaeJa from Chairosaur's with Serral being #10 but i wouldn't be exactly convinced. You must be joking. Stats has 19 top 4 finishes playing in the hardest region with 3 tier 1 tournament wins and an insane proleague record. If you think Serral's record is more impressive than this I won't take anything you say serious anymore. Not even speaking of soO......... soO is Yellow's direct heir; amazing consistency and impressive skill level into very few victories. Stats is the most consistent player in LoTV and a serious contender, but was he really the best in the world in a given moment? You then think Stork was better than Oov? On the other hand, you come up with Rogue and Dear(great players, i'm not here to deny this) who displayed level of dominance similar to Serral for a fraction of the time he has been? The difference is the prominence that you give to koreans tournament that it is effectively a factor, but nowhere as great as you are esteeming; if Serral was korean you'd be already calling him top 3 player. I don't think TaeJa is a top 10 player and he has won almost twice as many tournaments as Serral not to mention double GSL semis and his IPL TAC performance. No if Serral would be korean I wouldn't call him a top 3 player lol............ That's just the way you see things. TaeJa in my opinion still has better achievements than Serral and definitely is a top 10 player; he didn't win BlizzCon and(that's why you don't value him that high) he didn't win a Code S, but he is first when it comes to tournament wins. It's very hard to come to unanimous consensus when judging achievements, there are many factors to be considered: level of dominance, consistency, number of victories, importance of tournament wons, level of the competition, career money earnings. well, one thing I give to you. Serral has the most impressive winstreak in sc2 history and might even have the highest peak. But for career achievements you have to look at the number of high tournament finishes and rate them against each other. Right now Serral has 2 tier 1 tournament wins, 1 tier 2 tournament win and 4 tier 3 tournament wins. He neither has a significant amount of other high tournament finishes nor notable teamleague performances (which most top koreans have). If I compare that to the players I listed Serral's achievements are just less impressive which is why I rate him lower. That has nothing to do with the country he's born in. Unless he wins the IEM i dont know why he would be considered higher, Rogue's run from Shanghai to Katowice is at least as much impressive as Serral's from GSL vs the World to HSC imo. Was Rogue undefeated going 40-0? Did he win a single GSL in the process? You guys act like WCS are worth nothing, but that's utter disregard of the foreigner scene. Serral won multiple WCS during his streak.
WCS wins are not nothing when compared to "average" players but when you want to compare Serral to the very best players of korea it really is nothing because every top 5 korean would have done the same in Serral's spot. Neeb won 3 out of 4 WCS events last year and he lost in the group stage of both Blizzcon and IEM Katowice.
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On November 27 2018 03:18 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 00:55 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 00:41 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 00:34 Xain0n wrote:
Lol. At worst i could take out soO,, Stats, Mma, Nestea and Rain from Anc1ent's list and acknowledge Polt and TaeJa from Chairosaur's with Serral being #10 but i wouldn't be exactly convinced. You must be joking. Stats has 19 top 4 finishes playing in the hardest region with 3 tier 1 tournament wins and an insane proleague record. If you think Serral's record is more impressive than this I won't take anything you say serious anymore. Not even speaking of soO......... On the other hand, you come up with Rogue and Dear(great players, i'm not here to deny this) who displayed level of dominance similar to Serral for a fraction of the time he has been? Rogue won four weekenders in a row against koreans (IEM, Super tournament, blizzcon, Katowice), over about six months. Serral won two in a row (GSL vs TW, blizzcon) over three months. Just because Serral was hyped for the entire year doesn't change the fact it wasn't until august that he actually showed he might be #1. WCS Circuit wins are meaningless if you're comparing Serral to the korean players/all time greats. The fact that Rogue's streak is almost double Serral's and no one (outside of Artosis) considered him a bonjwa just shows how much easier foreigners can get it. Even last year, people gave player of the year to INno over Rogue. But in 2018 Serral was much better than Maru because?
Rogue didn't win all four in a single year; moreover, he won nothing before his streak in 2017 and nothing again after Katowice in 2018.
Serral won a WCS earlier in 2018 then went undefeated after April: all in a single year and in a single streak.
Nobody said Serral's year was MUCH better than Maru's, just better. Why? More tournaments won, better earnings, better win percentage offline, a huge period of actual invincibility.
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Rogue played against top players actually.
He stomped Classic who just stomped Serral and had a hell of a run, so his skill peak was probably higher.
And yes, WCSs arent that meaningful, just look at the HSC, minus the group stage where they were all jetlaged it was stomp into stomp ( except against Serral and the zvz). Not a disregard but an observation.
Reynor is probably the best standard player behind Serral in foreignland, and Cure, at the birth of his incredible year 2019 was too good for him, imagine if it was any other top korean player? Yes, 40-0 is an incredible proof of strength, even in WCS, but the foreign scene isnt as good as it looks.
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On November 27 2018 04:27 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 04:20 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 03:12 DieuCure wrote:On November 27 2018 01:16 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 01:09 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 00:59 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 00:55 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 00:41 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 00:34 Xain0n wrote:
Lol. At worst i could take out soO,, Stats, Mma, Nestea and Rain from Anc1ent's list and acknowledge Polt and TaeJa from Chairosaur's with Serral being #10 but i wouldn't be exactly convinced. You must be joking. Stats has 19 top 4 finishes playing in the hardest region with 3 tier 1 tournament wins and an insane proleague record. If you think Serral's record is more impressive than this I won't take anything you say serious anymore. Not even speaking of soO......... soO is Yellow's direct heir; amazing consistency and impressive skill level into very few victories. Stats is the most consistent player in LoTV and a serious contender, but was he really the best in the world in a given moment? You then think Stork was better than Oov? On the other hand, you come up with Rogue and Dear(great players, i'm not here to deny this) who displayed level of dominance similar to Serral for a fraction of the time he has been? The difference is the prominence that you give to koreans tournament that it is effectively a factor, but nowhere as great as you are esteeming; if Serral was korean you'd be already calling him top 3 player. I don't think TaeJa is a top 10 player and he has won almost twice as many tournaments as Serral not to mention double GSL semis and his IPL TAC performance. No if Serral would be korean I wouldn't call him a top 3 player lol............ That's just the way you see things. TaeJa in my opinion still has better achievements than Serral and definitely is a top 10 player; he didn't win BlizzCon and(that's why you don't value him that high) he didn't win a Code S, but he is first when it comes to tournament wins. It's very hard to come to unanimous consensus when judging achievements, there are many factors to be considered: level of dominance, consistency, number of victories, importance of tournament wons, level of the competition, career money earnings. well, one thing I give to you. Serral has the most impressive winstreak in sc2 history and might even have the highest peak. But for career achievements you have to look at the number of high tournament finishes and rate them against each other. Right now Serral has 2 tier 1 tournament wins, 1 tier 2 tournament win and 4 tier 3 tournament wins. He neither has a significant amount of other high tournament finishes nor notable teamleague performances (which most top koreans have). If I compare that to the players I listed Serral's achievements are just less impressive which is why I rate him lower. That has nothing to do with the country he's born in. Unless he wins the IEM i dont know why he would be considered higher, Rogue's run from Shanghai to Katowice is at least as much impressive as Serral's from GSL vs the World to HSC imo. Was Rogue undefeated going 40-0? Did he win a single GSL in the process? You guys act like WCS are worth nothing, but that's utter disregard of the foreigner scene. Serral won multiple WCS during his streak. WCS wins are not nothing when compared to "average" players but when you want to compare Serral to the very best players of korea it really is nothing because every top 5 korean would have done the same in Serral's spot. Neeb won 3 out of 4 WCS events last year and he lost in the group stage of both Blizzcon and IEM Katowice.
That's delusional, mate. Dark would never given the amount of ZvZ, Rogue might have but he always loses to Neeb, Maru definitely would have but he isn't the best when it comes to weekenders, probably Stats would have but i wouldn't give this for granted, Ty might have.
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On November 27 2018 04:31 DieuCure wrote:
Rogue played against top players actually.
He stomped Classic who just stomped Serral and had a hell of a run, so his skill peak was probably higher.
And yes, WCSs arent that meaningful, just look at the HSC, minus the group stage where they were all jetlaged it was stomp into stomp ( except against Serral and the zvz). Not a disregard but an observation.
Reynor is probably the best standard player behind Serral in foreignland, and Cure, at the birth of his incredible year 2019 was too good for him, imagine if it was any other top korean player? Yes, 40-0 is an incredible proof of strength, even in WCS, but the foreign scene isnt as good as it looks.
Serral's BlizzCon run is a higher peak. HSC was played under a new patch, it shouldn't be that indicative as best EU are Zerg and best KR Terran on average.
Of course i am not comparing WCS to GSL directly but you seem to think it's kind of a joke while Neeb actually made top4 at GSL without looking great in WCS this year...
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On November 27 2018 04:34 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 04:27 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 04:20 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 03:12 DieuCure wrote:On November 27 2018 01:16 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 01:09 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 00:59 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 00:55 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 00:41 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 00:34 Xain0n wrote:
Lol. At worst i could take out soO,, Stats, Mma, Nestea and Rain from Anc1ent's list and acknowledge Polt and TaeJa from Chairosaur's with Serral being #10 but i wouldn't be exactly convinced. You must be joking. Stats has 19 top 4 finishes playing in the hardest region with 3 tier 1 tournament wins and an insane proleague record. If you think Serral's record is more impressive than this I won't take anything you say serious anymore. Not even speaking of soO......... soO is Yellow's direct heir; amazing consistency and impressive skill level into very few victories. Stats is the most consistent player in LoTV and a serious contender, but was he really the best in the world in a given moment? You then think Stork was better than Oov? On the other hand, you come up with Rogue and Dear(great players, i'm not here to deny this) who displayed level of dominance similar to Serral for a fraction of the time he has been? The difference is the prominence that you give to koreans tournament that it is effectively a factor, but nowhere as great as you are esteeming; if Serral was korean you'd be already calling him top 3 player. I don't think TaeJa is a top 10 player and he has won almost twice as many tournaments as Serral not to mention double GSL semis and his IPL TAC performance. No if Serral would be korean I wouldn't call him a top 3 player lol............ That's just the way you see things. TaeJa in my opinion still has better achievements than Serral and definitely is a top 10 player; he didn't win BlizzCon and(that's why you don't value him that high) he didn't win a Code S, but he is first when it comes to tournament wins. It's very hard to come to unanimous consensus when judging achievements, there are many factors to be considered: level of dominance, consistency, number of victories, importance of tournament wons, level of the competition, career money earnings. well, one thing I give to you. Serral has the most impressive winstreak in sc2 history and might even have the highest peak. But for career achievements you have to look at the number of high tournament finishes and rate them against each other. Right now Serral has 2 tier 1 tournament wins, 1 tier 2 tournament win and 4 tier 3 tournament wins. He neither has a significant amount of other high tournament finishes nor notable teamleague performances (which most top koreans have). If I compare that to the players I listed Serral's achievements are just less impressive which is why I rate him lower. That has nothing to do with the country he's born in. Unless he wins the IEM i dont know why he would be considered higher, Rogue's run from Shanghai to Katowice is at least as much impressive as Serral's from GSL vs the World to HSC imo. Was Rogue undefeated going 40-0? Did he win a single GSL in the process? You guys act like WCS are worth nothing, but that's utter disregard of the foreigner scene. Serral won multiple WCS during his streak. WCS wins are not nothing when compared to "average" players but when you want to compare Serral to the very best players of korea it really is nothing because every top 5 korean would have done the same in Serral's spot. Neeb won 3 out of 4 WCS events last year and he lost in the group stage of both Blizzcon and IEM Katowice. That's delusional, mate. Dark would never given the amount of ZvZ
Dark is 28-1 in series against foreign Zergs not named Serral.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On November 27 2018 04:28 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 03:18 Fango wrote:On November 27 2018 00:55 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 00:41 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 00:34 Xain0n wrote:
Lol. At worst i could take out soO,, Stats, Mma, Nestea and Rain from Anc1ent's list and acknowledge Polt and TaeJa from Chairosaur's with Serral being #10 but i wouldn't be exactly convinced. You must be joking. Stats has 19 top 4 finishes playing in the hardest region with 3 tier 1 tournament wins and an insane proleague record. If you think Serral's record is more impressive than this I won't take anything you say serious anymore. Not even speaking of soO......... On the other hand, you come up with Rogue and Dear(great players, i'm not here to deny this) who displayed level of dominance similar to Serral for a fraction of the time he has been? Rogue won four weekenders in a row against koreans (IEM, Super tournament, blizzcon, Katowice), over about six months. Serral won two in a row (GSL vs TW, blizzcon) over three months. Just because Serral was hyped for the entire year doesn't change the fact it wasn't until august that he actually showed he might be #1. WCS Circuit wins are meaningless if you're comparing Serral to the korean players/all time greats. The fact that Rogue's streak is almost double Serral's and no one (outside of Artosis) considered him a bonjwa just shows how much easier foreigners can get it. Even last year, people gave player of the year to INno over Rogue. But in 2018 Serral was much better than Maru because? Rogue didn't win all four in a single year; moreover, he won nothing before his streak in 2017 and nothing again after Katowice in 2018. Serral won a WCS earlier in 2018 then went undefeated after April: all in a single year and in a single streak. Nobody said Serral's year was MUCH better than Maru's, just better. Why? More tournaments won, better earnings, better win percentage offline, a huge period of actual invincibility.
If you play in worse region OF COURSE you will have better winrates. WTF dude?
Edit>
C'mon. Korea isn't that bad yet, we saw it at HSC(and I will repeat the best Koreans were missing, namely Dark, Maru, TY, Stats, Classic), Blizzcon(2-6 at RO8 from 8-8 at RO16 ::D). C'mon. Every foreigner not named Serral is worse than, let's say top12 Koreans. In their good form this doesn't apply to Neeb, Raynor and Major Special, but still, that's just 4 players and they're still not top tier Koreans level. (well, Special may be, his win against Classic was impressive)
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On November 27 2018 06:00 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 04:28 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 03:18 Fango wrote:On November 27 2018 00:55 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 00:41 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 00:34 Xain0n wrote:
Lol. At worst i could take out soO,, Stats, Mma, Nestea and Rain from Anc1ent's list and acknowledge Polt and TaeJa from Chairosaur's with Serral being #10 but i wouldn't be exactly convinced. You must be joking. Stats has 19 top 4 finishes playing in the hardest region with 3 tier 1 tournament wins and an insane proleague record. If you think Serral's record is more impressive than this I won't take anything you say serious anymore. Not even speaking of soO......... On the other hand, you come up with Rogue and Dear(great players, i'm not here to deny this) who displayed level of dominance similar to Serral for a fraction of the time he has been? Rogue won four weekenders in a row against koreans (IEM, Super tournament, blizzcon, Katowice), over about six months. Serral won two in a row (GSL vs TW, blizzcon) over three months. Just because Serral was hyped for the entire year doesn't change the fact it wasn't until august that he actually showed he might be #1. WCS Circuit wins are meaningless if you're comparing Serral to the korean players/all time greats. The fact that Rogue's streak is almost double Serral's and no one (outside of Artosis) considered him a bonjwa just shows how much easier foreigners can get it. Even last year, people gave player of the year to INno over Rogue. But in 2018 Serral was much better than Maru because? Rogue didn't win all four in a single year; moreover, he won nothing before his streak in 2017 and nothing again after Katowice in 2018. Serral won a WCS earlier in 2018 then went undefeated after April: all in a single year and in a single streak. Nobody said Serral's year was MUCH better than Maru's, just better. Why? More tournaments won, better earnings, better win percentage offline, a huge period of actual invincibility. If you play in worse region OF COURSE you will have better winrates. WTF dude? Edit> C'mon. Korea isn't that bad yet, we saw it at HSC(and I will repeat the best Koreans were missing, namely Dark, Maru, TY, Stats, Classic), Blizzcon(2-6 at RO8 from 8-8 at RO16 ::D). C'mon. Every foreigner not named Serral is worse than, let's say top12 Koreans. In their good form this doesn't apply to Neeb, Raynor and Major Special, but still, that's just 4 players and they're still not top tier Koreans level. (well, Special may be, his win against Classic was impressive)
Yeah if you look at most Foreigner versus Korean tournaments, Serral is pulling most of the weight lol. In 2018 GSL vs the World, Korean vs Foreigner winrate was 57% (if you exclude Serral, it was 76%). In Blizzcon, the winrate was 56% (if you exclude Serral, it was 74%). It is possible that the foreigner-korean gap did not change or may have even increased. In GSL vs the World of 2017, the Korean winrate was only 65% (72% without Neeb) and in 2017 Blizzcon, the winrate (including TRUE) was also 65% (64% without Neeb). In terms of raw winrate, foreigners did better in 2018 but imo, it was almost completely because of Serral.
I did not bother to check IEM WC or WESG as that would take too much time and tbf the 2018 winrates probably wouldn't be as lopsided as they are I think if Reynor and Elazer were there but they were not very lucky this year.
Edt: I will admit GSL vs the World statistics are also kind of skewed by the Chinese players so the winrate is probably more like 65-70%. Of course, it is very impressive to win a WCS tournament but considering how the average top Korean basically has 65-70% winrate against top foreigners not named Serral, I am pretty sure the top 8 Koreans (besides sOs, lol) would win at least like 2 or 3 out of 4 of them if Serral were not competing too. That said, I would say winning a WCS tournament is probably a bit more difficult than making a GSL ro8 but less difficult than a GSL ro4.
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France12884 Posts
On November 27 2018 04:37 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 04:31 DieuCure wrote:
Rogue played against top players actually.
He stomped Classic who just stomped Serral and had a hell of a run, so his skill peak was probably higher.
And yes, WCSs arent that meaningful, just look at the HSC, minus the group stage where they were all jetlaged it was stomp into stomp ( except against Serral and the zvz). Not a disregard but an observation.
Reynor is probably the best standard player behind Serral in foreignland, and Cure, at the birth of his incredible year 2019 was too good for him, imagine if it was any other top korean player? Yes, 40-0 is an incredible proof of strength, even in WCS, but the foreign scene isnt as good as it looks. Serral's BlizzCon run is a higher peak. HSC was played under a new patch, it shouldn't be that indicative as best EU are Zerg and best KR Terran on average. Of course i am not comparing WCS to GSL directly but you seem to think it's kind of a joke while Neeb actually made top4 at GSL without looking great in WCS this year...
Why would his blizzcon run be a new peak? That doesn't make any sense.
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On November 27 2018 06:00 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 04:28 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 03:18 Fango wrote:On November 27 2018 00:55 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 00:41 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 00:34 Xain0n wrote:
Lol. At worst i could take out soO,, Stats, Mma, Nestea and Rain from Anc1ent's list and acknowledge Polt and TaeJa from Chairosaur's with Serral being #10 but i wouldn't be exactly convinced. You must be joking. Stats has 19 top 4 finishes playing in the hardest region with 3 tier 1 tournament wins and an insane proleague record. If you think Serral's record is more impressive than this I won't take anything you say serious anymore. Not even speaking of soO......... On the other hand, you come up with Rogue and Dear(great players, i'm not here to deny this) who displayed level of dominance similar to Serral for a fraction of the time he has been? Rogue won four weekenders in a row against koreans (IEM, Super tournament, blizzcon, Katowice), over about six months. Serral won two in a row (GSL vs TW, blizzcon) over three months. Just because Serral was hyped for the entire year doesn't change the fact it wasn't until august that he actually showed he might be #1. WCS Circuit wins are meaningless if you're comparing Serral to the korean players/all time greats. The fact that Rogue's streak is almost double Serral's and no one (outside of Artosis) considered him a bonjwa just shows how much easier foreigners can get it. Even last year, people gave player of the year to INno over Rogue. But in 2018 Serral was much better than Maru because? Rogue didn't win all four in a single year; moreover, he won nothing before his streak in 2017 and nothing again after Katowice in 2018. Serral won a WCS earlier in 2018 then went undefeated after April: all in a single year and in a single streak. Nobody said Serral's year was MUCH better than Maru's, just better. Why? More tournaments won, better earnings, better win percentage offline, a huge period of actual invincibility. If you play in worse region OF COURSE you will have better winrates. WTF dude? Edit> C'mon. Korea isn't that bad yet, we saw it at HSC(and I will repeat the best Koreans were missing, namely Dark, Maru, TY, Stats, Classic), Blizzcon(2-6 at RO8 from 8-8 at RO16 ::D). C'mon. Every foreigner not named Serral is worse than, let's say top12 Koreans. In their good form this doesn't apply to Neeb, Raynor and Major Special, but still, that's just 4 players and they're still not top tier Koreans level. (well, Special may be, his win against Classic was impressive)
Maru is 82-51 in games (61,5%) ans 27-10 (73%) in matches offline vs Korean offline bo3+
Serral is 56-25 in games (69%) ans 21-2 (91%) in matches offline vs Korean offline bo3+
He played Inno, Stats, Rogue, Zest, Trap all twice, trashed them all twice
His only losing record all year on BO3+ offline is against maru ? and why is that ? well after WESG Maru has always lost before meeting Serral ...
Serral lost 3 matches this year offline BO3+ :
1 against Maru (the final champ) at WESG
1 against Scarlett (the final champ) at IEM PyeongChang
1 against Classic (2nd place finish) at IEM Katowice, and yeah he beat the final winner in group stage and then got revancge on Classic at WESG
Maru lost 11 matches :
Against Classic 3 times (5-9 against classic in maps, 1-3 in matches) WESG qualifier, group stage GSL1, Super Tournament 1
Against Time at WESG qualifier
Against Keen in group stage GSL 1
Against TY, Dear, Rogue at IEM Katowice
Stats at GSL vs the World (Serral was the final champ)
sOs at Super tournament 2 and Blizzcon (Serral was the final champ)
Winning 3 GSL in a row is beyond amazing but saying that Serral has a better winrate because he played in WCS is just false. Serral has a better record against Korean than Maru despite only playing the top korean and not the gatekeeper like Keen and Ragnarok to inflate his %
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EPT
