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On November 26 2018 11:47 Xain0n wrote:
Serral imho is well suited for a GSL kind of tournament and for living in Korea! He doesn't need it but it would be the ice on the cake and i'm fairly sure it is what he wants.
Going back to the finals, i forgot to mention he went for Broodlords in game 7 and they looked way better than Ultralisks.
There seemed to me to be a theme where most of the Zerg were favoring Broodlords over Ultras, much more often vs. Terran bio than you would have seen pre patch. Even with the disadvantage in mobility they seemed to do better with Broodlords than Ultras, although in some instances they made Broods and then tech switched to Ultras.
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On November 26 2018 08:39 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2018 08:17 Anc13nt wrote:
I don't think Serral is a bonjwa in the sense of being one of the greatest careerwise. Even though that's not how most people would necessarily define bonjwa, I still believe that is an important requirement. The broodwar bonjwas did not only have the most dominant peaks but if you were to have a greatest of all time list, every bonjwa and Jaedong would be in the top 6 of that list. And tbh in terms of achievements, Serral still has a long way to go before he's considered among the greatest of all time in all eras (if I were to guess he is somewhere in the top 20) but if he continues this run for a another year or two, then it is a possibility. But for now, I am comfortable with saying he is the best in the world and his run is one of the more impressive, but calling him bonjwa is premature. He definitely already is in the top 10 or even top5 if we take into account premier victories(six), but of course those can't count because they were not GSL. His year has been the most dominant ever as he added an unbeatable second half of the year to a good first half(Maru did the opposite but failed when it counted the most).
Well I would say it's a bit of a stretch to say he is top 5 based on premier tournament victories alone (then Taeja would be greatest of all time). Also, by your metric, I think he is actually ranked 8-11 (4-way tie), with 4 of his wins being WCS tournaments (whereas Maru won 5 Starleagues and WESG), which lends credence to the idea that Serral is probably somewhere closer to rank 10-20. In fact, I can name 12 players that I believe many people would agree have had a greater career in terms of achievements, MVP, sOs, soO, Maru, Stats, Zest, Life, MMA, Nestea, INnoVation, MC, and Rain. When I said he was in top 20, I did not mean to say that to mean he was 20th best but more like he is somewhere in lower part of the top 20, which I still believe.
I would like to add that honestly, I don't think there are very many "korean elitists" who are deluded about Serral's skills. I'll admit I underestimated him for a while but I've always been able to change my opinion based on his tournament performances. I think the perception that many people underrate Serral is caused by many "korean elitists" who do not necessarily try to minimize Serral's accomplishments but are kind of salty that he keeps winning (especially when it's against their favourite players as it is in my case) and thus try to qualify his status of being the best player by saying, "Maybe he's the best right now. But he would lose to X and the Korean scene is declining anyway." That said, I do think that there is a consensus that he is number one in the world at the moment. However, I can also reconcile that with the idea that even though he's number one right now, that does not mean that he is among the greatest of all time. To me, it is not all too different from saying that Dear, ByuN or Rogue are great players but not among the greatest despite having been the best player in the later part of their respective best years. Serral this year is one of the most impressive accomplishments in all of Starcraft history (especially considering that he is a foreigner player) but keep in mind that most of the greatest players have had many more years to accumulate achievements, whereas he has basically only had one.
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On November 26 2018 08:17 Swisslink wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2018 08:08 TheNewEra wrote:On November 26 2018 08:04 Swisslink wrote:On November 26 2018 08:00 TheNewEra wrote:
Watched every singly HSC but I feel weirdly emotional about this one. But maybe it's just Closing Time Let's hope not. Apparently StarCraft regains some popularity again and with it, Homestory Cup generates more money as well. And all the guys still seem to have a lot of fun doing this event. As mentioned before: I hope there will be lots of Homestory Cups, even after the one in Vegas. Sorry you misunderstood me  Closing Time was a reference to the last song which was played That's better! But I had a somewhat weird feeling with all the talk about HSCXX. It was promoted as THE ultimate HSC-Event. And ultimate is a scary word with its double meaning. :-P Regarding Serral vs. Maru: I would argue Maru is better in a direct Matchup. Does that make him a better player? Wouldn't argue so. Serral has two matchups where he looks pretty much invincible. Different players have different really good matchups and with the lack of foreign Terrans I'm not surprised Serral is having a hard time dealing with the Korean ones.
Think about it this way: Take needs to maintain his business. He's not big enough to just throw a ton of money at an expensive HSC for no reason regardless of passion. He also said he'd have no problem securing sponsors since we literally broke EVERY HSC RECORD WE HAVE!(So good!). He's just excited to have his biggest event of the year be a SC2 event
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On November 26 2018 12:22 Anc13nt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2018 08:39 Xain0n wrote:On November 26 2018 08:17 Anc13nt wrote:
I don't think Serral is a bonjwa in the sense of being one of the greatest careerwise. Even though that's not how most people would necessarily define bonjwa, I still believe that is an important requirement. The broodwar bonjwas did not only have the most dominant peaks but if you were to have a greatest of all time list, every bonjwa and Jaedong would be in the top 6 of that list. And tbh in terms of achievements, Serral still has a long way to go before he's considered among the greatest of all time in all eras (if I were to guess he is somewhere in the top 20) but if he continues this run for a another year or two, then it is a possibility. But for now, I am comfortable with saying he is the best in the world and his run is one of the more impressive, but calling him bonjwa is premature. He definitely already is in the top 10 or even top5 if we take into account premier victories(six), but of course those can't count because they were not GSL. His year has been the most dominant ever as he added an unbeatable second half of the year to a good first half(Maru did the opposite but failed when it counted the most). Well I would say it's a bit of a stretch to say he is top 5 based on premier tournament victories alone (then Taeja would be greatest of all time). Also, by your metric, I think he is actually ranked 8-11 (4-way tie), with 4 of his wins being WCS tournaments (whereas Maru won 5 Starleagues and WESG), which lends credence to the idea that Serral is probably somewhere closer to rank 10-20. In fact, I can name 12 players that I believe many people would agree have had a greater career in terms of achievements, MVP, sOs, soO, Maru, Stats, Zest, Life, MMA, Nestea, INnoVation, MC, and Rain. When I said he was in top 20, I did not mean to say that to mean he was 20th best but more like he is somewhere in lower part of the top 20, which I still believe. I would like to add that honestly, I don't think there are very many "korean elitists" who are deluded about Serral's skills. I'll admit I underestimated him for a while but I've always been able to change my opinion based on his tournament performances. I think the perception that many people underrate Serral is caused by many "korean elitists" who do not necessarily try to minimize Serral's accomplishments but are kind of salty that he keeps winning (especially when it's against their favourite players as it is in my case) and thus try to qualify his status of being the best player by saying, "Maybe he's the best right now. But he would lose to X and the Korean scene is declining anyway." That said, I do think that there is a consensus that he is number one in the world at the moment. However, I can also reconcile that with the idea that even though he's number one right now, that does not mean that he is among the greatest of all time. To me, it is not all too different from saying that Dear, ByuN or Rogue are great players but not among the greatest despite having been the best player in the later part of their respective best years. Serral this year is one of the most impressive accomplishments in all of Starcraft history (especially considering that he is a foreigner player) but keep in mind that most of the greatest players have had many more years to accumulate achievements, whereas he has basically only had one.
To be fair to Korean Elitists, we have spent 8 years hoping for a foreigner to rise up and take the crown. Many came fairly close for a short while, but every single one of them faltered. Serral started no different. However, he wasn't just lightning in a bottle; he kept on improving and winning despite incredible odds against him (his clutch factor is INSANE with how many times he won down match point.) If I was a less hopeful person I'd be pretty jaded and annoyed by what I see as undue hype as well after watching 8+ years of failure.
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I wish inno had won, he hasn't won a tournament in such a long time... and he had to play those 3 matches against zest bunny and serral in quick succession as well. Just hope he can bring some of that momentum into the new year
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On November 26 2018 13:08 sudete wrote:
I wish inno had won, he hasn't won a tournament in such a long time... and he had to play those 3 matches against zest bunny and serral in quick succession as well. Just hope he can bring some of that momentum into the new year
Let's hope!
Also how much TakeTv was able to raise? I didn't see the number in the end.
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On November 26 2018 13:08 sudete wrote:
I wish inno had won, he hasn't won a tournament in such a long time... and he had to play those 3 matches against zest bunny and serral in quick succession as well. Just hope he can bring some of that momentum into the new year
Yeah, Inno takes his losses well on the outside but I think he's probably getting sick of them by now and him and Dark will come back stronger in 2019.
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On November 26 2018 12:22 Anc13nt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2018 08:39 Xain0n wrote:On November 26 2018 08:17 Anc13nt wrote:
I don't think Serral is a bonjwa in the sense of being one of the greatest careerwise. Even though that's not how most people would necessarily define bonjwa, I still believe that is an important requirement. The broodwar bonjwas did not only have the most dominant peaks but if you were to have a greatest of all time list, every bonjwa and Jaedong would be in the top 6 of that list. And tbh in terms of achievements, Serral still has a long way to go before he's considered among the greatest of all time in all eras (if I were to guess he is somewhere in the top 20) but if he continues this run for a another year or two, then it is a possibility. But for now, I am comfortable with saying he is the best in the world and his run is one of the more impressive, but calling him bonjwa is premature. He definitely already is in the top 10 or even top5 if we take into account premier victories(six), but of course those can't count because they were not GSL. His year has been the most dominant ever as he added an unbeatable second half of the year to a good first half(Maru did the opposite but failed when it counted the most). Well I would say it's a bit of a stretch to say he is top 5 based on premier tournament victories alone (then Taeja would be greatest of all time). Also, by your metric, I think he is actually ranked 8-11 (4-way tie), with 4 of his wins being WCS tournaments (whereas Maru won 5 Starleagues and WESG), which lends credence to the idea that Serral is probably somewhere closer to rank 10-20. In fact, I can name 12 players that I believe many people would agree have had a greater career in terms of achievements, MVP, sOs, soO, Maru, Stats, Zest, Life, MMA, Nestea, INnoVation, MC, and Rain. When I said he was in top 20, I did not mean to say that to mean he was 20th best but more like he is somewhere in lower part of the top 20, which I still believe. I would like to add that honestly, I don't think there are very many "korean elitists" who are deluded about Serral's skills. I'll admit I underestimated him for a while but I've always been able to change my opinion based on his tournament performances. I think the perception that many people underrate Serral is caused by many "korean elitists" who do not necessarily try to minimize Serral's accomplishments but are kind of salty that he keeps winning (especially when it's against their favourite players as it is in my case) and thus try to qualify his status of being the best player by saying, "Maybe he's the best right now. But he would lose to X and the Korean scene is declining anyway." That said, I do think that there is a consensus that he is number one in the world at the moment. However, I can also reconcile that with the idea that even though he's number one right now, that does not mean that he is among the greatest of all time. To me, it is not all too different from saying that Dear, ByuN or Rogue are great players but not among the greatest despite having been the best player in the later part of their respective best years. Serral this year is one of the most impressive accomplishments in all of Starcraft history (especially considering that he is a foreigner player) but keep in mind that most of the greatest players have had many more years to accumulate achievements, whereas he has basically only had one.
A legitimate opinion.
I think it's way more impressive that he achieved all this in a single year of full time Starcraft, he is young and will have many opportunities to win even more.
Personally, I agree that roughly half of the players you listed have had more impressive careers than Serral and i think ranking him at 8th place all time is appropriate.
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I think the general idea of a "best player ever" is stupid in StarCraft. Each era has its stars and each era needs an entirely different skillset. Why was NesTea so great? Not because his micro/macro was awesome, but because he had an early understanding of the game like no one else. For his time, he was about as dominant as it gets, but compared to the players after him, his play was utter rubbish. The same goes for players like MC and to some extend probably even MVP. They were great, but their on a purely mechanical level, they wouldn't be able to compete today, most likely.
Then there are players like sOs, Maru, Stats, Zest, Life, Parting, Innovation who performed insanely well before the Korean scene crashed and now with Serral we have a foreigner who dominates the scene. No one knows how these players would fare against each other in each other's era. And I think it's needless to rank those, imo.
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Czech Republic12131 Posts
On November 26 2018 20:44 Swisslink wrote:
I think the general idea of a "best player ever" is stupid in StarCraft. Each era has its stars and each era needs an entirely different skillset. Why was NesTea so great? Not because his micro/macro was awesome, but because he had an early understanding of the game like no one else. For his time, he was about as dominant as it gets, but compared to the players after him, his play was utter rubbish. The same goes for players like MC and to some extend probably even MVP. They were great, but their on a purely mechanical level, they wouldn't be able to compete today, most likely.
Then there are players like sOs, Maru, Stats, Zest, Life, Parting, Innovation who performed insanely well before the Korean scene crashed and now with Serral we have a foreigner who dominates the scene. No one knows how these players would fare against each other in each other's era. And I think it's needless to rank those, imo.
Actually currently we have kinda weird situation. We have Maru, who dominates Code S and then we have Serral for the weekenders(except WESG and Katowice  ) and the only time they met in an offline BO3+ Maru won.
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On November 26 2018 20:55 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2018 20:44 Swisslink wrote:
I think the general idea of a "best player ever" is stupid in StarCraft. Each era has its stars and each era needs an entirely different skillset. Why was NesTea so great? Not because his micro/macro was awesome, but because he had an early understanding of the game like no one else. For his time, he was about as dominant as it gets, but compared to the players after him, his play was utter rubbish. The same goes for players like MC and to some extend probably even MVP. They were great, but their on a purely mechanical level, they wouldn't be able to compete today, most likely.
Then there are players like sOs, Maru, Stats, Zest, Life, Parting, Innovation who performed insanely well before the Korean scene crashed and now with Serral we have a foreigner who dominates the scene. No one knows how these players would fare against each other in each other's era. And I think it's needless to rank those, imo. Actually currently we have kinda weird situation. We have Maru, who dominates Code S and then we have Serral for the weekenders(except WESG and Katowice ) and the only time they met in an offline BO3+ Maru won.
Maru dominates Code S and loses in GSL weekenders; Serral's losses are too distant in time and patches and he totally owns WCS Circuit in addiction to winning last weekenders(most notably BlizzCon) that top Koreans(included Maru, who he beat in a bo1) took part in.
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On November 26 2018 13:08 sudete wrote:
I wish inno had won, he hasn't won a tournament in such a long time... and he had to play those 3 matches against zest bunny and serral in quick succession as well. Just hope he can bring some of that momentum into the new year
Didn't Inno literally win last HSC? o.O
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On November 26 2018 20:44 Swisslink wrote:
I think the general idea of a "best player ever" is stupid in StarCraft. Each era has its stars and each era needs an entirely different skillset. Why was NesTea so great? Not because his micro/macro was awesome, but because he had an early understanding of the game like no one else. For his time, he was about as dominant as it gets, but compared to the players after him, his play was utter rubbish. The same goes for players like MC and to some extend probably even MVP. They were great, but their on a purely mechanical level, they wouldn't be able to compete today, most likely.
Then there are players like sOs, Maru, Stats, Zest, Life, Parting, Innovation who performed insanely well before the Korean scene crashed and now with Serral we have a foreigner who dominates the scene. No one knows how these players would fare against each other in each other's era. And I think it's needless to rank those, imo.
It's the same problem with every competitive sport tbh. How will you say Messi or Neymar is better / worse than Pelé? Conditions were totally different, different competition, etc. It's the same in starcraft II; even if it's not the same level of play or whatever, serral / maru are part of this environment as well; if they're succeeding, others should be able to succeed as well, and yet they can't. So I think it's alright to call one of the two (I'm partial to serral) the best atm, and even a banjo, but GOAT discussions would be hard to lift out of heated fan arguments.
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On November 26 2018 12:22 Anc13nt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2018 08:39 Xain0n wrote:On November 26 2018 08:17 Anc13nt wrote:
I don't think Serral is a bonjwa in the sense of being one of the greatest careerwise. Even though that's not how most people would necessarily define bonjwa, I still believe that is an important requirement. The broodwar bonjwas did not only have the most dominant peaks but if you were to have a greatest of all time list, every bonjwa and Jaedong would be in the top 6 of that list. And tbh in terms of achievements, Serral still has a long way to go before he's considered among the greatest of all time in all eras (if I were to guess he is somewhere in the top 20) but if he continues this run for a another year or two, then it is a possibility. But for now, I am comfortable with saying he is the best in the world and his run is one of the more impressive, but calling him bonjwa is premature. He definitely already is in the top 10 or even top5 if we take into account premier victories(six), but of course those can't count because they were not GSL. His year has been the most dominant ever as he added an unbeatable second half of the year to a good first half(Maru did the opposite but failed when it counted the most). I can name 12 players that I believe many people would agree have had a greater career in terms of achievements, MVP, sOs, soO, Maru, Stats, Zest, Life, MMA, Nestea, INnoVation, MC, and Rain.
Rogue, Dark, TaeJa, herO, Polt, Bomber, PartinG, TY, Solar, Dear, Classic
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On November 26 2018 23:07 RadgeRayden wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2018 20:44 Swisslink wrote:
I think the general idea of a "best player ever" is stupid in StarCraft. Each era has its stars and each era needs an entirely different skillset. Why was NesTea so great? Not because his micro/macro was awesome, but because he had an early understanding of the game like no one else. For his time, he was about as dominant as it gets, but compared to the players after him, his play was utter rubbish. The same goes for players like MC and to some extend probably even MVP. They were great, but their on a purely mechanical level, they wouldn't be able to compete today, most likely.
Then there are players like sOs, Maru, Stats, Zest, Life, Parting, Innovation who performed insanely well before the Korean scene crashed and now with Serral we have a foreigner who dominates the scene. No one knows how these players would fare against each other in each other's era. And I think it's needless to rank those, imo. It's the same problem with every competitive sport tbh. How will you say Messi or Neymar is better / worse than Pelé? Conditions were totally different, different competition, etc. It's the same in starcraft II; even if it's not the same level of play or whatever, serral / maru are part of this environment as well; if they're succeeding, others should be able to succeed as well, and yet they can't. So I think it's alright to call one of the two (I'm partial to serral) the best atm, and even a banjo, but GOAT discussions would be hard to lift out of heated fan arguments.
the difference is that currently in sc2 we can objectively say that the scene isn't as competitive as before.
If all football teams would suddenly disband and the remaining players (after 2/3 of them retired) would just train on their own without a coach or something and compete against each other and there wouldn't be new blood in 5 years then it would be comparable.
Right now in football you have only your feelings to decide which era was harder to be good at while in sc2 we can objectively say that the scene isn't as competitive as before.
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Lol. At worst i could take out soO,, Stats, Mma, Nestea and Rain from Anc1ent's list and acknowledge Polt and TaeJa from Chairosaur's with Serral being #10 but i wouldn't be exactly convinced.
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On November 27 2018 00:29 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2018 23:07 RadgeRayden wrote:On November 26 2018 20:44 Swisslink wrote:
I think the general idea of a "best player ever" is stupid in StarCraft. Each era has its stars and each era needs an entirely different skillset. Why was NesTea so great? Not because his micro/macro was awesome, but because he had an early understanding of the game like no one else. For his time, he was about as dominant as it gets, but compared to the players after him, his play was utter rubbish. The same goes for players like MC and to some extend probably even MVP. They were great, but their on a purely mechanical level, they wouldn't be able to compete today, most likely.
Then there are players like sOs, Maru, Stats, Zest, Life, Parting, Innovation who performed insanely well before the Korean scene crashed and now with Serral we have a foreigner who dominates the scene. No one knows how these players would fare against each other in each other's era. And I think it's needless to rank those, imo. It's the same problem with every competitive sport tbh. How will you say Messi or Neymar is better / worse than Pelé? Conditions were totally different, different competition, etc. It's the same in starcraft II; even if it's not the same level of play or whatever, serral / maru are part of this environment as well; if they're succeeding, others should be able to succeed as well, and yet they can't. So I think it's alright to call one of the two (I'm partial to serral) the best atm, and even a banjo, but GOAT discussions would be hard to lift out of heated fan arguments. the difference is that currently in sc2 we can objectively say that the scene isn't as competitive as before. If all football teams would suddenly disband and the remaining players (after 2/3 of them retired) would just train on their own without a coach or something and compete against each other and there wouldn't be new blood in 5 years then it would be comparable. Right now in football you have only your feelings to decide which era was harder to be good at while in sc2 we can objectively say that the scene isn't as competitive as before.
The scene has less depth, the game itself is harder. It is probably easier to get consecutive wins(like Maru's threepeat in GSL) but you have to be extremely good to excel in LoTV.
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On November 27 2018 00:34 Xain0n wrote:
Lol. At worst i could take out soO,, Stats, Mma, Nestea and Rain from Anc1ent's list and acknowledge Polt and TaeJa from Chairosaur's with Serral being #10 but i wouldn't be exactly convinced.
You must be joking. Stats has 19 top 4 finishes playing in the hardest region with 3 tier 1 tournament wins and an insane proleague record. If you think Serral's record is more impressive than this I won't take anything you say serious anymore.
Not even speaking of soO.........
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On November 27 2018 00:41 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 00:34 Xain0n wrote:
Lol. At worst i could take out soO,, Stats, Mma, Nestea and Rain from Anc1ent's list and acknowledge Polt and TaeJa from Chairosaur's with Serral being #10 but i wouldn't be exactly convinced. You must be joking. Stats has 19 top 4 finishes playing in the hardest region with 3 tier 1 tournament wins and an insane proleague record. If you think Serral's record is more impressive than this I won't take anything you say serious anymore. Not even speaking of soO.........
soO is Yellow's direct heir; amazing consistency and impressive skill level into very few victories. Stats is the most consistent player in LoTV and a serious contender, but was he really the best in the world in a given moment?
You then think Stork was better than Oov?
On the other hand, you come up with Rogue and Dear(great players, i'm not here to deny this) who displayed level of dominance similar to Serral for a fraction of the time he has been?
The difference is the prominence that you give to koreans tournament that it is effectively a factor, but nowhere as great as you are esteeming; if Serral was korean you'd be already calling him top 3 player.
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EPT
