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On November 27 2018 06:54 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 04:37 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 04:31 DieuCure wrote:
Rogue played against top players actually.
He stomped Classic who just stomped Serral and had a hell of a run, so his skill peak was probably higher.
And yes, WCSs arent that meaningful, just look at the HSC, minus the group stage where they were all jetlaged it was stomp into stomp ( except against Serral and the zvz). Not a disregard but an observation.
Reynor is probably the best standard player behind Serral in foreignland, and Cure, at the birth of his incredible year 2019 was too good for him, imagine if it was any other top korean player? Yes, 40-0 is an incredible proof of strength, even in WCS, but the foreign scene isnt as good as it looks. Serral's BlizzCon run is a higher peak. HSC was played under a new patch, it shouldn't be that indicative as best EU are Zerg and best KR Terran on average. Of course i am not comparing WCS to GSL directly but you seem to think it's kind of a joke while Neeb actually made top4 at GSL without looking great in WCS this year... Why would his blizzcon run be a new peak? That doesn't make any sense.
Would you say Serral didn't have a hell of a run at BlizzCon?
I fail to see how Rogue's peak could be higher but that's too deep into opinions to properly discuss.
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On November 27 2018 05:52 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 04:34 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 04:27 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 04:20 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 03:12 DieuCure wrote:On November 27 2018 01:16 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 01:09 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 00:59 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 00:55 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 00:41 Charoisaur wrote:
[quote]
You must be joking. Stats has 19 top 4 finishes playing in the hardest region with 3 tier 1 tournament wins and an insane proleague record. If you think Serral's record is more impressive than this I won't take anything you say serious anymore.
Not even speaking of soO......... soO is Yellow's direct heir; amazing consistency and impressive skill level into very few victories. Stats is the most consistent player in LoTV and a serious contender, but was he really the best in the world in a given moment? You then think Stork was better than Oov? On the other hand, you come up with Rogue and Dear(great players, i'm not here to deny this) who displayed level of dominance similar to Serral for a fraction of the time he has been? The difference is the prominence that you give to koreans tournament that it is effectively a factor, but nowhere as great as you are esteeming; if Serral was korean you'd be already calling him top 3 player. I don't think TaeJa is a top 10 player and he has won almost twice as many tournaments as Serral not to mention double GSL semis and his IPL TAC performance. No if Serral would be korean I wouldn't call him a top 3 player lol............ That's just the way you see things. TaeJa in my opinion still has better achievements than Serral and definitely is a top 10 player; he didn't win BlizzCon and(that's why you don't value him that high) he didn't win a Code S, but he is first when it comes to tournament wins. It's very hard to come to unanimous consensus when judging achievements, there are many factors to be considered: level of dominance, consistency, number of victories, importance of tournament wons, level of the competition, career money earnings. well, one thing I give to you. Serral has the most impressive winstreak in sc2 history and might even have the highest peak. But for career achievements you have to look at the number of high tournament finishes and rate them against each other. Right now Serral has 2 tier 1 tournament wins, 1 tier 2 tournament win and 4 tier 3 tournament wins. He neither has a significant amount of other high tournament finishes nor notable teamleague performances (which most top koreans have). If I compare that to the players I listed Serral's achievements are just less impressive which is why I rate him lower. That has nothing to do with the country he's born in. Unless he wins the IEM i dont know why he would be considered higher, Rogue's run from Shanghai to Katowice is at least as much impressive as Serral's from GSL vs the World to HSC imo. Was Rogue undefeated going 40-0? Did he win a single GSL in the process? You guys act like WCS are worth nothing, but that's utter disregard of the foreigner scene. Serral won multiple WCS during his streak. WCS wins are not nothing when compared to "average" players but when you want to compare Serral to the very best players of korea it really is nothing because every top 5 korean would have done the same in Serral's spot. Neeb won 3 out of 4 WCS events last year and he lost in the group stage of both Blizzcon and IEM Katowice. That's delusional, mate. Dark would never given the amount of ZvZ Dark is 28-1 in series against foreign Zergs not named Serral.
How many of these in 2018? ZvZ has been developed way more in EU than in KR, i don't think he'd have won every single time. Dark is so good in ZvT, a waste agaisnt Heromarine and Uthermal(not meaning to disrespect them).
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On November 27 2018 07:45 Philozovic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 06:00 deacon.frost wrote:On November 27 2018 04:28 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 03:18 Fango wrote:On November 27 2018 00:55 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 00:41 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 00:34 Xain0n wrote:
Lol. At worst i could take out soO,, Stats, Mma, Nestea and Rain from Anc1ent's list and acknowledge Polt and TaeJa from Chairosaur's with Serral being #10 but i wouldn't be exactly convinced. You must be joking. Stats has 19 top 4 finishes playing in the hardest region with 3 tier 1 tournament wins and an insane proleague record. If you think Serral's record is more impressive than this I won't take anything you say serious anymore. Not even speaking of soO......... On the other hand, you come up with Rogue and Dear(great players, i'm not here to deny this) who displayed level of dominance similar to Serral for a fraction of the time he has been? Rogue won four weekenders in a row against koreans (IEM, Super tournament, blizzcon, Katowice), over about six months. Serral won two in a row (GSL vs TW, blizzcon) over three months. Just because Serral was hyped for the entire year doesn't change the fact it wasn't until august that he actually showed he might be #1. WCS Circuit wins are meaningless if you're comparing Serral to the korean players/all time greats. The fact that Rogue's streak is almost double Serral's and no one (outside of Artosis) considered him a bonjwa just shows how much easier foreigners can get it. Even last year, people gave player of the year to INno over Rogue. But in 2018 Serral was much better than Maru because? Rogue didn't win all four in a single year; moreover, he won nothing before his streak in 2017 and nothing again after Katowice in 2018. Serral won a WCS earlier in 2018 then went undefeated after April: all in a single year and in a single streak. Nobody said Serral's year was MUCH better than Maru's, just better. Why? More tournaments won, better earnings, better win percentage offline, a huge period of actual invincibility. If you play in worse region OF COURSE you will have better winrates. WTF dude? Edit> C'mon. Korea isn't that bad yet, we saw it at HSC(and I will repeat the best Koreans were missing, namely Dark, Maru, TY, Stats, Classic), Blizzcon(2-6 at RO8 from 8-8 at RO16 ::D). C'mon. Every foreigner not named Serral is worse than, let's say top12 Koreans. In their good form this doesn't apply to Neeb, Raynor and Major Special, but still, that's just 4 players and they're still not top tier Koreans level. (well, Special may be, his win against Classic was impressive) Maru is 82-51 in games (61,5%) ans 27-10 (73%) in matches offline vs Korean offline bo3+ Serral is 56-25 in games (69%) ans 21-2 (91%) in matches offline vs Korean offline bo3+ He played Inno, Stats, Rogue, Zest, Trap all twice, trashed them all twice His only losing record all year on BO3+ offline is against maru ? and why is that ? well after WESG Maru has always lost before meeting Serral ... Serral lost 3 matches this year offline BO3+ : 1 against Maru (the final champ) at WESG 1 against Scarlett (the final champ) at IEM PyeongChang 1 against Classic (2nd place finish) at IEM Katowice, and yeah he beat the final winner in group stage and then got revancge on Classic at WESG Maru lost 11 matches : Against Classic 3 times (5-9 against classic in maps, 1-3 in matches) WESG qualifier, group stage GSL1, Super Tournament 1 Against Time at WESG qualifier Against Keen in group stage GSL 1 Against TY, Dear, Rogue at IEM Katowice Stats at GSL vs the World (Serral was the final champ) sOs at Super tournament 2 and Blizzcon (Serral was the final champ) Winning 3 GSL in a row is beyond amazing but saying that Serral has a better winrate because he played in WCS is just false. Serral has a better record against Korean than Maru despite only playing the top korean and not the gatekeeper like Keen and Ragnarok to inflate his %
Classic is 4-3 against Serral. I agree that Serral's winrates against the Koreans are very impressive and Maru's winrate shows that he was more clutch than dominant this year (kind of like Neeb in 2017). However, going into 2019, I do not think that his streak and high win-rates will last forever. Only person who has constantly stayed in the top for the past few years is Stats (Dark and TY to a lesser extent). 2018 was pretty anomalous year, with 2 people basically winning everything. I feel like it's pretty unlikely for that to happen again. That said, just because he is so much stronger than every other foreigner, I think he will win like 2-3 WCS Circuit next year and if he does GSL for all 3 seasons, he might win one and/or make finals.
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On November 27 2018 08:04 Anc13nt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 07:45 Philozovic wrote:On November 27 2018 06:00 deacon.frost wrote:On November 27 2018 04:28 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 03:18 Fango wrote:On November 27 2018 00:55 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 00:41 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 00:34 Xain0n wrote:
Lol. At worst i could take out soO,, Stats, Mma, Nestea and Rain from Anc1ent's list and acknowledge Polt and TaeJa from Chairosaur's with Serral being #10 but i wouldn't be exactly convinced. You must be joking. Stats has 19 top 4 finishes playing in the hardest region with 3 tier 1 tournament wins and an insane proleague record. If you think Serral's record is more impressive than this I won't take anything you say serious anymore. Not even speaking of soO......... On the other hand, you come up with Rogue and Dear(great players, i'm not here to deny this) who displayed level of dominance similar to Serral for a fraction of the time he has been? Rogue won four weekenders in a row against koreans (IEM, Super tournament, blizzcon, Katowice), over about six months. Serral won two in a row (GSL vs TW, blizzcon) over three months. Just because Serral was hyped for the entire year doesn't change the fact it wasn't until august that he actually showed he might be #1. WCS Circuit wins are meaningless if you're comparing Serral to the korean players/all time greats. The fact that Rogue's streak is almost double Serral's and no one (outside of Artosis) considered him a bonjwa just shows how much easier foreigners can get it. Even last year, people gave player of the year to INno over Rogue. But in 2018 Serral was much better than Maru because? Rogue didn't win all four in a single year; moreover, he won nothing before his streak in 2017 and nothing again after Katowice in 2018. Serral won a WCS earlier in 2018 then went undefeated after April: all in a single year and in a single streak. Nobody said Serral's year was MUCH better than Maru's, just better. Why? More tournaments won, better earnings, better win percentage offline, a huge period of actual invincibility. If you play in worse region OF COURSE you will have better winrates. WTF dude? Edit> C'mon. Korea isn't that bad yet, we saw it at HSC(and I will repeat the best Koreans were missing, namely Dark, Maru, TY, Stats, Classic), Blizzcon(2-6 at RO8 from 8-8 at RO16 ::D). C'mon. Every foreigner not named Serral is worse than, let's say top12 Koreans. In their good form this doesn't apply to Neeb, Raynor and Major Special, but still, that's just 4 players and they're still not top tier Koreans level. (well, Special may be, his win against Classic was impressive) Maru is 82-51 in games (61,5%) ans 27-10 (73%) in matches offline vs Korean offline bo3+ Serral is 56-25 in games (69%) ans 21-2 (91%) in matches offline vs Korean offline bo3+ He played Inno, Stats, Rogue, Zest, Trap all twice, trashed them all twice His only losing record all year on BO3+ offline is against maru ? and why is that ? well after WESG Maru has always lost before meeting Serral ... Serral lost 3 matches this year offline BO3+ : 1 against Maru (the final champ) at WESG 1 against Scarlett (the final champ) at IEM PyeongChang 1 against Classic (2nd place finish) at IEM Katowice, and yeah he beat the final winner in group stage and then got revancge on Classic at WESG Maru lost 11 matches : Against Classic 3 times (5-9 against classic in maps, 1-3 in matches) WESG qualifier, group stage GSL1, Super Tournament 1 Against Time at WESG qualifier Against Keen in group stage GSL 1 Against TY, Dear, Rogue at IEM Katowice Stats at GSL vs the World (Serral was the final champ) sOs at Super tournament 2 and Blizzcon (Serral was the final champ) Winning 3 GSL in a row is beyond amazing but saying that Serral has a better winrate because he played in WCS is just false. Serral has a better record against Korean than Maru despite only playing the top korean and not the gatekeeper like Keen and Ragnarok to inflate his % Classic is 4-3 against Serral. I agree that Serral's winrates against the Koreans are very impressive and Maru's winrate shows that he was more clutch than dominant this year (kind of like Neeb in 2017). However, going into 2019, I do not think that his streak and high win-rates will last forever. Only person who has constantly stayed in the top for the past few years is Stats (Dark and TY to a lesser extent). 2018 was pretty anomalous year, with 2 people basically winning everything. I feel like it's pretty unlikely for that to happen again. That said, just because he is so much stronger than every other foreigner, I think he will win like 2-3 WCS Circuit next year and if he does GSL for all 3 seasons, he might win one and/or make finals.
I don't think he will keep his streak alive for much more, but he is allowed to lose after all xd
If he could someway get back a form similar to the one he had during BlizzCon he will win a Code S, i have no doubts.
There is Reynor growing in WCS, Special will benefit of the patch and Neeb could be more dangerous than he was this year; Serral risked way more against Reynor than against Stats or Innovation.
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On November 27 2018 08:00 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 05:52 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 04:34 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 04:27 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 04:20 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 03:12 DieuCure wrote:On November 27 2018 01:16 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 01:09 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 00:59 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 00:55 Xain0n wrote:
[quote]
soO is Yellow's direct heir; amazing consistency and impressive skill level into very few victories. Stats is the most consistent player in LoTV and a serious contender, but was he really the best in the world in a given moment?
You then think Stork was better than Oov?
On the other hand, you come up with Rogue and Dear(great players, i'm not here to deny this) who displayed level of dominance similar to Serral for a fraction of the time he has been?
The difference is the prominence that you give to koreans tournament that it is effectively a factor, but nowhere as great as you are esteeming; if Serral was korean you'd be already calling him top 3 player.
I don't think TaeJa is a top 10 player and he has won almost twice as many tournaments as Serral not to mention double GSL semis and his IPL TAC performance. No if Serral would be korean I wouldn't call him a top 3 player lol............ That's just the way you see things. TaeJa in my opinion still has better achievements than Serral and definitely is a top 10 player; he didn't win BlizzCon and(that's why you don't value him that high) he didn't win a Code S, but he is first when it comes to tournament wins. It's very hard to come to unanimous consensus when judging achievements, there are many factors to be considered: level of dominance, consistency, number of victories, importance of tournament wons, level of the competition, career money earnings. well, one thing I give to you. Serral has the most impressive winstreak in sc2 history and might even have the highest peak. But for career achievements you have to look at the number of high tournament finishes and rate them against each other. Right now Serral has 2 tier 1 tournament wins, 1 tier 2 tournament win and 4 tier 3 tournament wins. He neither has a significant amount of other high tournament finishes nor notable teamleague performances (which most top koreans have). If I compare that to the players I listed Serral's achievements are just less impressive which is why I rate him lower. That has nothing to do with the country he's born in. Unless he wins the IEM i dont know why he would be considered higher, Rogue's run from Shanghai to Katowice is at least as much impressive as Serral's from GSL vs the World to HSC imo. Was Rogue undefeated going 40-0? Did he win a single GSL in the process? You guys act like WCS are worth nothing, but that's utter disregard of the foreigner scene. Serral won multiple WCS during his streak. WCS wins are not nothing when compared to "average" players but when you want to compare Serral to the very best players of korea it really is nothing because every top 5 korean would have done the same in Serral's spot. Neeb won 3 out of 4 WCS events last year and he lost in the group stage of both Blizzcon and IEM Katowice. That's delusional, mate. Dark would never given the amount of ZvZ Dark is 28-1 in series against foreign Zergs not named Serral. How many of these in 2018? ZvZ has been developed way more in EU than in KR, i don't think he'd have won every single time. Dark is so good in ZvT, a waste agaisnt Heromarine and Uthermal(not meaning to disrespect them).
I don't think this "foreign ZvZ is better" meme is even remotely true. Serral's ZvZ is better but all his matchups are better than those of korean Zergs (possible exception Dark's ZvT)
There's nothing that indicates foreigners other than Serral are better in the matchup than koreans.
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Since May 1 2018
Serral vs Koreans in Bo3+
Games: 40-14 (74.07%)
Matches: 15-0 (100%)
Maru vs Koreans Bo3+
Games: 40-20 (66.67%)
Matches: 13-3 (81.35%)
Maru lost:
Twice to SoS (1-3; 0-3)
Once to Stats (1-3)
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On November 27 2018 10:21 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 08:00 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 05:52 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 04:34 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 04:27 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 04:20 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 03:12 DieuCure wrote:On November 27 2018 01:16 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 01:09 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 00:59 Charoisaur wrote:
[quote]
I don't think TaeJa is a top 10 player and he has won almost twice as many tournaments as Serral not to mention double GSL semis and his IPL TAC performance. No if Serral would be korean I wouldn't call him a top 3 player lol............ That's just the way you see things. TaeJa in my opinion still has better achievements than Serral and definitely is a top 10 player; he didn't win BlizzCon and(that's why you don't value him that high) he didn't win a Code S, but he is first when it comes to tournament wins. It's very hard to come to unanimous consensus when judging achievements, there are many factors to be considered: level of dominance, consistency, number of victories, importance of tournament wons, level of the competition, career money earnings. well, one thing I give to you. Serral has the most impressive winstreak in sc2 history and might even have the highest peak. But for career achievements you have to look at the number of high tournament finishes and rate them against each other. Right now Serral has 2 tier 1 tournament wins, 1 tier 2 tournament win and 4 tier 3 tournament wins. He neither has a significant amount of other high tournament finishes nor notable teamleague performances (which most top koreans have). If I compare that to the players I listed Serral's achievements are just less impressive which is why I rate him lower. That has nothing to do with the country he's born in. Unless he wins the IEM i dont know why he would be considered higher, Rogue's run from Shanghai to Katowice is at least as much impressive as Serral's from GSL vs the World to HSC imo. Was Rogue undefeated going 40-0? Did he win a single GSL in the process? You guys act like WCS are worth nothing, but that's utter disregard of the foreigner scene. Serral won multiple WCS during his streak. WCS wins are not nothing when compared to "average" players but when you want to compare Serral to the very best players of korea it really is nothing because every top 5 korean would have done the same in Serral's spot. Neeb won 3 out of 4 WCS events last year and he lost in the group stage of both Blizzcon and IEM Katowice. That's delusional, mate. Dark would never given the amount of ZvZ Dark is 28-1 in series against foreign Zergs not named Serral. How many of these in 2018? ZvZ has been developed way more in EU than in KR, i don't think he'd have won every single time. Dark is so good in ZvT, a waste agaisnt Heromarine and Uthermal(not meaning to disrespect them). I don't think this "foreign ZvZ is better" meme is even remotely true. Serral's ZvZ is better but all his matchups are better than those of korean Zergs (possible exception Dark's ZvT) There's nothing that indicates foreigners other than Serral are better in the matchup than koreans.
Well, it came true this HSC with Bly beating soO, Namshar beating Rogue, Lambo and Elazer beating Solar.
Both Serral and Lambo stated that ZvZ is more refined in EU during BlizzCon and it seems logical given how often the matchup is played in WCS, not mentioning the better results obtained by EU Zergs against Serral when compared to KR Zergs.
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France12885 Posts
On November 27 2018 19:35 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 10:21 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 08:00 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 05:52 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 04:34 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 04:27 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 04:20 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 03:12 DieuCure wrote:On November 27 2018 01:16 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 01:09 Xain0n wrote:
[quote]
That's just the way you see things. TaeJa in my opinion still has better achievements than Serral and definitely is a top 10 player; he didn't win BlizzCon and(that's why you don't value him that high) he didn't win a Code S, but he is first when it comes to tournament wins.
It's very hard to come to unanimous consensus when judging achievements, there are many factors to be considered: level of dominance, consistency, number of victories, importance of tournament wons, level of the competition, career money earnings. well, one thing I give to you. Serral has the most impressive winstreak in sc2 history and might even have the highest peak. But for career achievements you have to look at the number of high tournament finishes and rate them against each other. Right now Serral has 2 tier 1 tournament wins, 1 tier 2 tournament win and 4 tier 3 tournament wins. He neither has a significant amount of other high tournament finishes nor notable teamleague performances (which most top koreans have). If I compare that to the players I listed Serral's achievements are just less impressive which is why I rate him lower. That has nothing to do with the country he's born in. Unless he wins the IEM i dont know why he would be considered higher, Rogue's run from Shanghai to Katowice is at least as much impressive as Serral's from GSL vs the World to HSC imo. Was Rogue undefeated going 40-0? Did he win a single GSL in the process? You guys act like WCS are worth nothing, but that's utter disregard of the foreigner scene. Serral won multiple WCS during his streak. WCS wins are not nothing when compared to "average" players but when you want to compare Serral to the very best players of korea it really is nothing because every top 5 korean would have done the same in Serral's spot. Neeb won 3 out of 4 WCS events last year and he lost in the group stage of both Blizzcon and IEM Katowice. That's delusional, mate. Dark would never given the amount of ZvZ Dark is 28-1 in series against foreign Zergs not named Serral. How many of these in 2018? ZvZ has been developed way more in EU than in KR, i don't think he'd have won every single time. Dark is so good in ZvT, a waste agaisnt Heromarine and Uthermal(not meaning to disrespect them). I don't think this "foreign ZvZ is better" meme is even remotely true. Serral's ZvZ is better but all his matchups are better than those of korean Zergs (possible exception Dark's ZvT) There's nothing that indicates foreigners other than Serral are better in the matchup than koreans. Well, it came true this HSC with Bly beating soO, Namshar beating Rogue, Lambo and Elazer beating Solar. Both Serral and Lambo stated that ZvZ is more refined in EU during BlizzCon and it seems logical given how often the matchup is played in WCS, not mentioning the better results obtained by EU Zergs against Serral when compared to KR Zergs.
Hard to say for sure. I don't know if the "koreans were jetlagged" thing is true, but koreans did very poorly in groupstages then just shat hard on foreigners not named Serral after that.
Quite funny to watch.
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On November 27 2018 20:42 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 19:35 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 10:21 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 08:00 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 05:52 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 04:34 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 04:27 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 04:20 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 03:12 DieuCure wrote:On November 27 2018 01:16 Charoisaur wrote:
[quote]
well, one thing I give to you. Serral has the most impressive winstreak in sc2 history and might even have the highest peak.
But for career achievements you have to look at the number of high tournament finishes and rate them against each other. Right now Serral has 2 tier 1 tournament wins, 1 tier 2 tournament win and 4 tier 3 tournament wins.
He neither has a significant amount of other high tournament finishes nor notable teamleague performances (which most top koreans have).
If I compare that to the players I listed Serral's achievements are just less impressive which is why I rate him lower. That has nothing to do with the country he's born in.
Unless he wins the IEM i dont know why he would be considered higher, Rogue's run from Shanghai to Katowice is at least as much impressive as Serral's from GSL vs the World to HSC imo. Was Rogue undefeated going 40-0? Did he win a single GSL in the process? You guys act like WCS are worth nothing, but that's utter disregard of the foreigner scene. Serral won multiple WCS during his streak. WCS wins are not nothing when compared to "average" players but when you want to compare Serral to the very best players of korea it really is nothing because every top 5 korean would have done the same in Serral's spot. Neeb won 3 out of 4 WCS events last year and he lost in the group stage of both Blizzcon and IEM Katowice. That's delusional, mate. Dark would never given the amount of ZvZ Dark is 28-1 in series against foreign Zergs not named Serral. How many of these in 2018? ZvZ has been developed way more in EU than in KR, i don't think he'd have won every single time. Dark is so good in ZvT, a waste agaisnt Heromarine and Uthermal(not meaning to disrespect them). I don't think this "foreign ZvZ is better" meme is even remotely true. Serral's ZvZ is better but all his matchups are better than those of korean Zergs (possible exception Dark's ZvT) There's nothing that indicates foreigners other than Serral are better in the matchup than koreans. Well, it came true this HSC with Bly beating soO, Namshar beating Rogue, Lambo and Elazer beating Solar. Both Serral and Lambo stated that ZvZ is more refined in EU during BlizzCon and it seems logical given how often the matchup is played in WCS, not mentioning the better results obtained by EU Zergs against Serral when compared to KR Zergs. Hard to say for sure. I don't know if the "koreans were jetlagged" thing is true, but koreans did very poorly in groupstages then just shat hard on foreigners not named Serral after that. Quite funny to watch.
That happened mostly in TvZ(clearly KR favored) if we don't take Zest into consideration; the only KR vs EU ZvZ that was played in brackets was Elazer vs Solar.
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On November 27 2018 08:04 Anc13nt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 07:45 Philozovic wrote:On November 27 2018 06:00 deacon.frost wrote:On November 27 2018 04:28 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 03:18 Fango wrote:On November 27 2018 00:55 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 00:41 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 00:34 Xain0n wrote:
Lol. At worst i could take out soO,, Stats, Mma, Nestea and Rain from Anc1ent's list and acknowledge Polt and TaeJa from Chairosaur's with Serral being #10 but i wouldn't be exactly convinced. You must be joking. Stats has 19 top 4 finishes playing in the hardest region with 3 tier 1 tournament wins and an insane proleague record. If you think Serral's record is more impressive than this I won't take anything you say serious anymore. Not even speaking of soO......... On the other hand, you come up with Rogue and Dear(great players, i'm not here to deny this) who displayed level of dominance similar to Serral for a fraction of the time he has been? Rogue won four weekenders in a row against koreans (IEM, Super tournament, blizzcon, Katowice), over about six months. Serral won two in a row (GSL vs TW, blizzcon) over three months. Just because Serral was hyped for the entire year doesn't change the fact it wasn't until august that he actually showed he might be #1. WCS Circuit wins are meaningless if you're comparing Serral to the korean players/all time greats. The fact that Rogue's streak is almost double Serral's and no one (outside of Artosis) considered him a bonjwa just shows how much easier foreigners can get it. Even last year, people gave player of the year to INno over Rogue. But in 2018 Serral was much better than Maru because? Rogue didn't win all four in a single year; moreover, he won nothing before his streak in 2017 and nothing again after Katowice in 2018. Serral won a WCS earlier in 2018 then went undefeated after April: all in a single year and in a single streak. Nobody said Serral's year was MUCH better than Maru's, just better. Why? More tournaments won, better earnings, better win percentage offline, a huge period of actual invincibility. If you play in worse region OF COURSE you will have better winrates. WTF dude? Edit> C'mon. Korea isn't that bad yet, we saw it at HSC(and I will repeat the best Koreans were missing, namely Dark, Maru, TY, Stats, Classic), Blizzcon(2-6 at RO8 from 8-8 at RO16 ::D). C'mon. Every foreigner not named Serral is worse than, let's say top12 Koreans. In their good form this doesn't apply to Neeb, Raynor and Major Special, but still, that's just 4 players and they're still not top tier Koreans level. (well, Special may be, his win against Classic was impressive) Maru is 82-51 in games (61,5%) ans 27-10 (73%) in matches offline vs Korean offline bo3+ Serral is 56-25 in games (69%) ans 21-2 (91%) in matches offline vs Korean offline bo3+ He played Inno, Stats, Rogue, Zest, Trap all twice, trashed them all twice His only losing record all year on BO3+ offline is against maru ? and why is that ? well after WESG Maru has always lost before meeting Serral ... Serral lost 3 matches this year offline BO3+ : 1 against Maru (the final champ) at WESG 1 against Scarlett (the final champ) at IEM PyeongChang 1 against Classic (2nd place finish) at IEM Katowice, and yeah he beat the final winner in group stage and then got revancge on Classic at WESG Maru lost 11 matches : Against Classic 3 times (5-9 against classic in maps, 1-3 in matches) WESG qualifier, group stage GSL1, Super Tournament 1 Against Time at WESG qualifier Against Keen in group stage GSL 1 Against TY, Dear, Rogue at IEM Katowice Stats at GSL vs the World (Serral was the final champ) sOs at Super tournament 2 and Blizzcon (Serral was the final champ) Winning 3 GSL in a row is beyond amazing but saying that Serral has a better winrate because he played in WCS is just false. Serral has a better record against Korean than Maru despite only playing the top korean and not the gatekeeper like Keen and Ragnarok to inflate his % Classic is 4-3 against Serral. I agree that Serral's winrates against the Koreans are very impressive and Maru's winrate shows that he was more clutch than dominant this year (kind of like Neeb in 2017). However, going into 2019, I do not think that his streak and high win-rates will last forever. Only person who has constantly stayed in the top for the past few years is Stats (Dark and TY to a lesser extent). 2018 was pretty anomalous year, with 2 people basically winning everything. I feel like it's pretty unlikely for that to happen again. That said, just because he is so much stronger than every other foreigner, I think he will win like 2-3 WCS Circuit next year and if he does GSL for all 3 seasons, he might win one and/or make finals.
In my minde classic and Serral were 1-1 
The topic is not about 2019, is about 2018. Is Serral 2018 the most dominant ever despite never playing GSL ?
On November 27 2018 20:42 Poopi wrote:
Hard to say for sure. I don't know if the "koreans were jetlagged" thing is true, but koreans did very poorly in groupstages then just shat hard on foreigners not named Serral after that.
Quite funny to watch.
The reverse can be say too, every foreigner not named Serral was hangover the next, but because Korean and Serral don't have personality they didn't drink :<
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On November 27 2018 19:35 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 10:21 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 08:00 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 05:52 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 04:34 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 04:27 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 04:20 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 03:12 DieuCure wrote:On November 27 2018 01:16 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 01:09 Xain0n wrote:
[quote]
That's just the way you see things. TaeJa in my opinion still has better achievements than Serral and definitely is a top 10 player; he didn't win BlizzCon and(that's why you don't value him that high) he didn't win a Code S, but he is first when it comes to tournament wins.
It's very hard to come to unanimous consensus when judging achievements, there are many factors to be considered: level of dominance, consistency, number of victories, importance of tournament wons, level of the competition, career money earnings. well, one thing I give to you. Serral has the most impressive winstreak in sc2 history and might even have the highest peak. But for career achievements you have to look at the number of high tournament finishes and rate them against each other. Right now Serral has 2 tier 1 tournament wins, 1 tier 2 tournament win and 4 tier 3 tournament wins. He neither has a significant amount of other high tournament finishes nor notable teamleague performances (which most top koreans have). If I compare that to the players I listed Serral's achievements are just less impressive which is why I rate him lower. That has nothing to do with the country he's born in. Unless he wins the IEM i dont know why he would be considered higher, Rogue's run from Shanghai to Katowice is at least as much impressive as Serral's from GSL vs the World to HSC imo. Was Rogue undefeated going 40-0? Did he win a single GSL in the process? You guys act like WCS are worth nothing, but that's utter disregard of the foreigner scene. Serral won multiple WCS during his streak. WCS wins are not nothing when compared to "average" players but when you want to compare Serral to the very best players of korea it really is nothing because every top 5 korean would have done the same in Serral's spot. Neeb won 3 out of 4 WCS events last year and he lost in the group stage of both Blizzcon and IEM Katowice. That's delusional, mate. Dark would never given the amount of ZvZ Dark is 28-1 in series against foreign Zergs not named Serral. How many of these in 2018? ZvZ has been developed way more in EU than in KR, i don't think he'd have won every single time. Dark is so good in ZvT, a waste agaisnt Heromarine and Uthermal(not meaning to disrespect them). I don't think this "foreign ZvZ is better" meme is even remotely true. Serral's ZvZ is better but all his matchups are better than those of korean Zergs (possible exception Dark's ZvT) There's nothing that indicates foreigners other than Serral are better in the matchup than koreans. Well, it came true this HSC with Bly beating soO, Namshar beating Rogue, Lambo and Elazer beating Solar. Both Serral and Lambo stated that ZvZ is more refined in EU during BlizzCon and it seems logical given how often the matchup is played in WCS, not mentioning the better results obtained by EU Zergs against Serral when compared to KR Zergs.
soO and Rogue looked like they haven't practiced in weeks so I wouldn't take those results to seriously.
Lambo and Elazer beat Solar but they are very close in skill to Solar anyway so I wouldn't contribute it to foreign ZvZ being better.
Looking at 2018 Dark is 11-0 against foreign Zergs not named Serral (including 3-0 Scarlett and 3-0 Reynor)
Rogue is 22-4 against foreign Zergs not named Serral (including 2-0 Nerchio, 2-0 Zanster, 2-0 SortOf, 2-0 Reynor)
soO actually beat Serral twice at Nationwars and has other notable wins like 3-0 Scarlett, 2-0 and 3-0 vs Elazer and 3-2 Lambo.
I don't know how I like it that foreign Zergs are trying to take credit for Serral beating korean Zergs, they haven't shown at all they are superior to them in the matchup.
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On November 27 2018 05:52 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 04:34 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 04:27 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 04:20 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 03:12 DieuCure wrote:On November 27 2018 01:16 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 01:09 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 00:59 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 00:55 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 00:41 Charoisaur wrote:
[quote]
You must be joking. Stats has 19 top 4 finishes playing in the hardest region with 3 tier 1 tournament wins and an insane proleague record. If you think Serral's record is more impressive than this I won't take anything you say serious anymore.
Not even speaking of soO......... soO is Yellow's direct heir; amazing consistency and impressive skill level into very few victories. Stats is the most consistent player in LoTV and a serious contender, but was he really the best in the world in a given moment? You then think Stork was better than Oov? On the other hand, you come up with Rogue and Dear(great players, i'm not here to deny this) who displayed level of dominance similar to Serral for a fraction of the time he has been? The difference is the prominence that you give to koreans tournament that it is effectively a factor, but nowhere as great as you are esteeming; if Serral was korean you'd be already calling him top 3 player. I don't think TaeJa is a top 10 player and he has won almost twice as many tournaments as Serral not to mention double GSL semis and his IPL TAC performance. No if Serral would be korean I wouldn't call him a top 3 player lol............ That's just the way you see things. TaeJa in my opinion still has better achievements than Serral and definitely is a top 10 player; he didn't win BlizzCon and(that's why you don't value him that high) he didn't win a Code S, but he is first when it comes to tournament wins. It's very hard to come to unanimous consensus when judging achievements, there are many factors to be considered: level of dominance, consistency, number of victories, importance of tournament wons, level of the competition, career money earnings. well, one thing I give to you. Serral has the most impressive winstreak in sc2 history and might even have the highest peak. But for career achievements you have to look at the number of high tournament finishes and rate them against each other. Right now Serral has 2 tier 1 tournament wins, 1 tier 2 tournament win and 4 tier 3 tournament wins. He neither has a significant amount of other high tournament finishes nor notable teamleague performances (which most top koreans have). If I compare that to the players I listed Serral's achievements are just less impressive which is why I rate him lower. That has nothing to do with the country he's born in. Unless he wins the IEM i dont know why he would be considered higher, Rogue's run from Shanghai to Katowice is at least as much impressive as Serral's from GSL vs the World to HSC imo. Was Rogue undefeated going 40-0? Did he win a single GSL in the process? You guys act like WCS are worth nothing, but that's utter disregard of the foreigner scene. Serral won multiple WCS during his streak. WCS wins are not nothing when compared to "average" players but when you want to compare Serral to the very best players of korea it really is nothing because every top 5 korean would have done the same in Serral's spot. Neeb won 3 out of 4 WCS events last year and he lost in the group stage of both Blizzcon and IEM Katowice. That's delusional, mate. Dark would never given the amount of ZvZ Dark is 28-1 in series against foreign Zergs not named Serral.
Blizzcon 2017 tho 
Serral will never be happened to win 3 GSL in a row, no one will ever be again imo, an opponent preparing 1 week or more just for you is much more different than a weekender.
And for the map lost difference, it's easier to drop maps as terran since you are really dependant of your build, it's not that true as zerg.
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As far as i know, thatp claim is as old as BlizzCon(or it was made slightly before) so i guess we'll have to wait 2019 to know if this really is true.
Only Serral played ZvZ against koreans at BlizzCon and Rogue and soO effectively didn't play at their level at HSC.
However, the matchup wasn't affected much by the balance changes so i'd assume HSC games actually show a trend, even more so as koreans are all around still better than foreigners on average; as bad as Rogue could perform, i don't think that Namshar losing almost all of his matches in HSC yet being confident against Rogue before their games while ultimately beating him 2-0 is only a coincidence.
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Really sad that TY vs Serral didnt happen at blizzcon because of a proxy.
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On November 27 2018 23:16 DieuCure wrote:
Really sad that TY vs Serral didnt happen at blizzcon because of a proxy.
I am not as Serral vs Rogue was incredible!
You have to blame the proxy madness that affected all korean Terran, it's a legit strat but they abused it to the point it was boring and predictable.
Rogue's ZvT isn't his best matchup, TY lost a map to Lambo and Serral was playing better in a more favorable patch: I don't see how TY could have won, it would have probably been 3-1/3-2 for Serral in my opinion.
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On November 27 2018 23:14 DieuCure wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 05:52 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 04:34 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 04:27 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 04:20 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 03:12 DieuCure wrote:On November 27 2018 01:16 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 01:09 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 00:59 Charoisaur wrote:On November 27 2018 00:55 Xain0n wrote:
[quote]
soO is Yellow's direct heir; amazing consistency and impressive skill level into very few victories. Stats is the most consistent player in LoTV and a serious contender, but was he really the best in the world in a given moment?
You then think Stork was better than Oov?
On the other hand, you come up with Rogue and Dear(great players, i'm not here to deny this) who displayed level of dominance similar to Serral for a fraction of the time he has been?
The difference is the prominence that you give to koreans tournament that it is effectively a factor, but nowhere as great as you are esteeming; if Serral was korean you'd be already calling him top 3 player.
I don't think TaeJa is a top 10 player and he has won almost twice as many tournaments as Serral not to mention double GSL semis and his IPL TAC performance. No if Serral would be korean I wouldn't call him a top 3 player lol............ That's just the way you see things. TaeJa in my opinion still has better achievements than Serral and definitely is a top 10 player; he didn't win BlizzCon and(that's why you don't value him that high) he didn't win a Code S, but he is first when it comes to tournament wins. It's very hard to come to unanimous consensus when judging achievements, there are many factors to be considered: level of dominance, consistency, number of victories, importance of tournament wons, level of the competition, career money earnings. well, one thing I give to you. Serral has the most impressive winstreak in sc2 history and might even have the highest peak. But for career achievements you have to look at the number of high tournament finishes and rate them against each other. Right now Serral has 2 tier 1 tournament wins, 1 tier 2 tournament win and 4 tier 3 tournament wins. He neither has a significant amount of other high tournament finishes nor notable teamleague performances (which most top koreans have). If I compare that to the players I listed Serral's achievements are just less impressive which is why I rate him lower. That has nothing to do with the country he's born in. Unless he wins the IEM i dont know why he would be considered higher, Rogue's run from Shanghai to Katowice is at least as much impressive as Serral's from GSL vs the World to HSC imo. Was Rogue undefeated going 40-0? Did he win a single GSL in the process? You guys act like WCS are worth nothing, but that's utter disregard of the foreigner scene. Serral won multiple WCS during his streak. WCS wins are not nothing when compared to "average" players but when you want to compare Serral to the very best players of korea it really is nothing because every top 5 korean would have done the same in Serral's spot. Neeb won 3 out of 4 WCS events last year and he lost in the group stage of both Blizzcon and IEM Katowice. That's delusional, mate. Dark would never given the amount of ZvZ Dark is 28-1 in series against foreign Zergs not named Serral. Blizzcon 2017 tho Serral will never be happened to win 3 GSL in a row, no one will ever be again imo, an opponent preparing 1 week or more just for you is much more different than a weekender. And for the map lost difference, it's easier to drop maps as terran since you are really dependant of your build, it's not that true as zerg.
Maru will never be happened to win 4 WCS in a row + GLS vs The World + Blizzcon in a year, no one will ever be again imo, playing a weekender without any special preparation is much more different than preparing one week for an opponent.
-insert here some balance whining as well-
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On November 26 2018 08:12 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2018 08:12 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On November 26 2018 08:08 Nezgar wrote:On November 26 2018 08:04 Kitai wrote:
I know it seems sacred on this site, but at what point do we get to start referring to Serral as the b-word? Artosis, noregret and catz already called him that on the last pylon show. They talked about it for quite a bit and explained their reasoning. Yeah but some sofa analysts here prefer to dismiss opinions of professionals who in this business for 20 years now and actually knowing what they are talking about catz calls every next zerg bonjwa, artosis has called out at least 15 bonjwas during sc history, idk kev.
Oh I wasn't aware? Perhaps memory fails me can you name a couple or even just 1 player I've any-what close to seriously called "the next zerg bonjwa" or a bonjwa in sc2 before at all? or are you just making shit up ::thinking:: I mean if you think I call everyone the next zerg bonjwa I hope 1 example isn't too tall of an ask.
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EPT
