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On November 04 2018 11:15 TheDougler wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2018 11:12 Alchemik wrote:
Serral is boring to watch. People are only excited because he's a foreigner. Plain and simple racism.
Every top-korean from last 8 years could have done the same as him : win WCS without others koreans, win 1 Korea weekender and a Blizcon. (Rogue, Life, etc.). Versus Koreans not knowing his play-style. And a Blizcon with a very good group and drawing (ZvZ obv his best MU vs koreans ) Lol, that's straight-up delusional. Ignoring all the ridiculous stuff afterwards, what about his play do you find boring?
Well, everything in his play is boring. He plays near perfect, but a boring near perfect. Fundamentally, he plays a patchzerg style, his strategy from the start to the ultra late game already carved in stone before the game begin, and a classic macro one.
His mindset is something along the line : as long as i'm not dead, i'll follow my plan and proceeds to auto-win. Watching him win everything, you can't help but feel Serral is right; when Z is played right it's the best macro race ever with no need at all for varied play.
Still, himself see he's predictable, and when finals comes, mix a all-in or two. He usually looses them, because he his super bad at them.
Beyond all-ins, he seldom take on-the-go strategic opportunities and nearly always plays the safest way ( more macro), rarely taking even a little risk.
More than 9 times out of 10, you exactly know how he will play before the game even start : perfect macro game until opponent throw himsef out of the game.
He never invented a meta, a move, a signature trick, nothing, it's simply the perfect generic foreign zerg.
Rogue, Dark, Life, Reynor, Leenock... are way, way more fun to watch (but yeah worst than Serral atm). You know something weird, novel or dangerous can happen. While watching Serral is like watching a (old school) bot.
The few good games with Serral is when a top opponent brings himself a bit of chaos (Neeb, Maru, Reynor, some Stats games, etc.). Imagine Serral playing his clone. Would be the most boring game ever, each one camping with lurker....
Like, if Serral is boring to watch you might just not enjoy watching SC2.
I guess only zergs players really enjoy watching Serral. He plays zerg near perfect and that's something. Then after a few games watching a bot is not fun.
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xongnox post is hilarious.
so patchzerg style is "He plays zerg near perfect and that's something. "
About Serral's ZvT, it just looks super scary, his scouting/gamesense/army positioning is far better than any other Zerg, he has legit made the MU look completely imbalanced he 3-0'd inno after Inno went 6-1 vs Rogue, 1-0'd Maru in this patch and made it look trivial, Maru has had close TvZ's vs soO/Rogue/Reynor, Serral has literally looked untouchable in the MU. (He is 18-0 this patch v T offline)
I'd heavily favour Serral over Maru on H2H, I think his blizzcon road was probably the hardest he could have had, the same if Maru actually got by sOs -> stats -> serral, they both got really bad brackets.
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Serral is just so damn good. Totally deserved to win this one. Vittu mikä ryökäle!
To put some perspective for Serrals nearly perfect year, in terms of price money won, he won more money this year than stats has made in all of his sc2 career. Stats too had best year of his career, but serrals was so freaking good he outshined that and the rest of stats sc2 career combined.
Ofc the prize moneys have gone up (wich is good). Maru too made more money this year than parting made in his entire career. Not bad at all.
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On November 05 2018 02:24 terribleplayer1 wrote:
xongnox post is hilarious.
so patchzerg style is "He plays zerg near perfect and that's something. "
About Serral's ZvT, it just looks super scary, his scouting/gamesense/army positioning is far better than any other Zerg, he has legit made the MU look completely imbalanced he 3-0'd inno after Inno went 6-1 vs Rogue, 1-0'd Maru in this patch and made it look trivial, Maru has had close TvZ's vs soO/Rogue/Reynor, Serral has literally looked untouchable in the MU. (He is 18-0 this patch v T offline)
I'd heavily favour Serral over Maru on H2H, I think his blizzcon road was probably the hardest he could have had, the same if Maru actually got by sOs -> stats -> serral, they both got really bad brackets.
Tbh korean ZvZ << European ZvZ.
So, while versus foreigners Serral loose more maps in ZvZ, versus Korans his best MU imo is ZvZ. His group was super weak too with sOs really duper bad vs Z.
Neeb, Mana, lots of foreign zergs, etc, etc, taking maps of Serral is not hazard, they know his play-style and try to abuse him. Koreans zergs not only doesn't know him, but play sub-optimal ZvZ meta in korea.
Otherwise the "patchzerg" word was obliviously relative to his strategic style, mindset and (lack of) variability, not his skill. So we can say he's an incomplete player (bad at all-inning for example). And incomplete players have a hard time in GSL format, but it's another story...
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On November 05 2018 02:46 Hiisi wrote:
Serral is just so damn good. Totally deserved to win this one. Vittu mikä ryökäle!
To put some perspective for Serrals nearly perfect year, in terms of price money won, he won more money this year than stats has made in all of his sc2 career. Stats too had best year of his career, but serrals was so freaking good he outshined that and the rest of stats sc2 career combined.
Ofc the prize moneys have gone up (wich is good). Maru too made more money this year than parting made in his entire career. Not bad at all.
Well tbh you should mention the Great Apartheid before comparing money..
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On November 05 2018 03:00 xongnox wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2018 02:24 terribleplayer1 wrote:
xongnox post is hilarious.
so patchzerg style is "He plays zerg near perfect and that's something. "
About Serral's ZvT, it just looks super scary, his scouting/gamesense/army positioning is far better than any other Zerg, he has legit made the MU look completely imbalanced he 3-0'd inno after Inno went 6-1 vs Rogue, 1-0'd Maru in this patch and made it look trivial, Maru has had close TvZ's vs soO/Rogue/Reynor, Serral has literally looked untouchable in the MU. (He is 18-0 this patch v T offline)
I'd heavily favour Serral over Maru on H2H, I think his blizzcon road was probably the hardest he could have had, the same if Maru actually got by sOs -> stats -> serral, they both got really bad brackets. Tbh korean ZvZ << European ZvZ. So, while versus foreigners Serral loose more maps in ZvZ, versus Korans his best MU imo is ZvZ. His group was super weak too with sOs really duper bad vs Z. Neeb, Mana, lots of foreign zergs, etc, etc, taking maps of Serral is not hazard, they know his play-style and try to abuse him. Koreans zergs not only doesn't know him, but play sub-optimal ZvZ meta in korea. Otherwise the "patchzerg" word was obliviously relative to his strategic style, mindset and (lack of) variability, not his skill. So we can say he's an incomplete player (bad at all-inning for example). And incomplete players have a hard time in GSL format, but it's another story...
Patchzerg actually means a zerg who is only doing well because the current patch favors his race. That is obviously not the case here, which is why you're getting crap for using that word.
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On November 05 2018 03:01 xongnox wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2018 02:46 Hiisi wrote:
Serral is just so damn good. Totally deserved to win this one. Vittu mikä ryökäle!
To put some perspective for Serrals nearly perfect year, in terms of price money won, he won more money this year than stats has made in all of his sc2 career. Stats too had best year of his career, but serrals was so freaking good he outshined that and the rest of stats sc2 career combined.
Ofc the prize moneys have gone up (wich is good). Maru too made more money this year than parting made in his entire career. Not bad at all. Well tbh you should mention the Great Apartheid before comparing money..
You should take a break from posting and digging yourself deeper. You're clearly tilted and not acting rational. Read your comments tomorrow and think about them a bit.
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On November 05 2018 02:18 xongnox wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2018 11:15 TheDougler wrote:On November 04 2018 11:12 Alchemik wrote:
Serral is boring to watch. People are only excited because he's a foreigner. Plain and simple racism.
Every top-korean from last 8 years could have done the same as him : win WCS without others koreans, win 1 Korea weekender and a Blizcon. (Rogue, Life, etc.). Versus Koreans not knowing his play-style. And a Blizcon with a very good group and drawing (ZvZ obv his best MU vs koreans ) Lol, that's straight-up delusional. Ignoring all the ridiculous stuff afterwards, what about his play do you find boring? Well, everything in his play is boring. He plays near perfect, but a boring near perfect. Fundamentally, he plays a patchzerg style, his strategy from the start to the ultra late game already carved in stone before the game begin, and a classic macro one. His mindset is something along the line : as long as i'm not dead, i'll follow my plan and proceeds to auto-win. Watching him win everything, you can't help but feel Serral is right; when Z is played right it's the best macro race ever with no need at all for varied play. Still, himself see he's predictable, and when finals comes, mix a all-in or two. He usually looses them, because he his super bad at them. Beyond all-ins, he seldom take on-the-go strategic opportunities and nearly always plays the safest way ( more macro), rarely taking even a little risk. More than 9 times out of 10, you exactly know how he will play before the game even start : perfect macro game until opponent throw himsef out of the game. He never invented a meta, a move, a signature trick, nothing, it's simply the perfect generic foreign zerg. Rogue, Dark, Life, Reynor, Leenock... are way, way more fun to watch (but yeah worst than Serral atm). You know something weird, novel or dangerous can happen. While watching Serral is like watching a (old school) bot. The few good games with Serral is when a top opponent brings himself a bit of chaos (Neeb, Maru, Reynor, some Stats games, etc.). Imagine Serral playing his clone. Would be the most boring game ever, each one camping with lurker.... I guess only zergs players really enjoy watching Serral. He plays zerg near perfect and that's something. Then after a few games watching a bot is not fun.
I can tell just from this post that you haven't watched very many Serral matches. You call him bad at all-ins when he used 2 all-ins to beat Stats at GSL vs The World. In fact, his game 7 win was an all-in. You say he's strategically predictable when he pulled a non-standard SH strategy in the finals at Blizzcon and also opted for ling muta in ZvZ, something Serral didn't do much before Blizzcon. You say he just plays macro until his opponents fall to his play, but if you had actually followed Serral's games this year, you'd know he played a lot of long macro games where he clawed out of the very jaws of death. It wasn't his opponents crumbling to him in long, drawn-out macro games he could have finished 10 minutes ago, it was him being resilient and persevering until he could win.
I'm Protoss and I love watching Serral. When he takes a lead, he ruthlessly and methodically pulls his opponents apart. When he's behind, he makes the impossible possible. When he looks caught off-guard, like with the nydus game at Blizzcon, he quickly swats it away like he knew it was coming the whole time. It honestly sounds like you watched a handful of games from Blizzcon, filled in the blanks with these easily disprovable assumptions, and decided to write about how boring the world champion is because reasons.
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Talking how Serral is predictable when Maru literally proxied almost every single game he played this year until it slapped him in the face, and the ones he didn't he mostly lost anyway.
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So I did some research.
Serral vs. Stats. Serral had the red colored computer. Serral won
Stats vs. sOs. Stats had the red colored computer. Stats won
Serral vs. Rogue. Serral had the red colored computer. Serral won.
Rogue vs. TY. Rogue had the red colored computer. Rogue won.
Serral vs. Dark. Serral had the red colored computer. Serral won.
Stats vs. SpeCial. Stats had the red colored computer. Stats won.
Anybody see a pattern here?
The only game which breaks the mold is Maru v. sOs, which, let's admit, was not good enough effort from Maru, who had the advantage though because he was in the red chair.
Conspiracy .... ? I think not. However, it does make me question some things I saw in the micro.
Some times when zerglings got past Stats' adepts when they shouldn't have been able to squeeze - once in his natural and once in a mineral block.
Some times when TY missed a tank shot that didn't fire for aeons - even though there were units in range and visible to TY.
I wonder, you know, if one computer has priority over the other in a LAN setting like that.
Just saying ...
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People have become so used to Koreans always being the best players that they can't wrap their minds around a Westerner becoming the best player for even one year and their brains broke, apparently.
There's nothing genetic about Koreans why they should be the best players in SC/SC2. I always assumed it was due to the fact that they had the biggest competitive scene with money tournaments dating back to Broodwar giving a large group of players incentive to train and practice really hard to refine their skills.
The most impressive thing to me about Serral is that he was able to reach a level to compete with and beat these players without having to train in Korea for an extended period of time.
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On November 05 2018 03:56 KR_4EVR wrote:
So I did some research.
Serral vs. Stats. Serral had the red colored computer. Serral won
Stats vs. sOs. Stats had the red colored computer. Stats won
Serral vs. Rogue. Serral had the red colored computer. Serral won.
Rogue vs. TY. Rogue had the red colored computer. Rogue won.
Serral vs. Dark. Serral had the red colored computer. Serral won.
Stats vs. SpeCial. Stats had the red colored computer. Stats won.
Anybody see a pattern here?
The only game which breaks the mold is Maru v. sOs, which, let's admit, was not good enough effort from Maru, who had the advantage though because he was in the red chair.
Conspiracy .... ? I think not. However, it does make me question some things I saw in the micro.
Some times when zerglings got past Stats' adepts when they shouldn't have been able to squeeze - once in his natural and once in a mineral block.
Some times when TY missed a tank shot that didn't fire for aeons - even though there were units in range and visible to TY.
I wonder, you know, if one computer has priority over the other in a LAN setting like that.
Just saying ...
I don't even know what I should say about that, lol.
Makes me wonder why not a single time one of the blue dudes paused the game because he felt like there was something iffy going on.
I mean I can't disprove your argument, because I'm not good with network-things and so on... but this really sounds like the weirdest reasoning for the wins that I've heard up to now.
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On November 05 2018 03:56 KR_4EVR wrote:
So I did some research.
Serral vs. Stats. Serral had the red colored computer. Serral won
Stats vs. sOs. Stats had the red colored computer. Stats won
Serral vs. Rogue. Serral had the red colored computer. Serral won.
Rogue vs. TY. Rogue had the red colored computer. Rogue won.
Serral vs. Dark. Serral had the red colored computer. Serral won.
Stats vs. SpeCial. Stats had the red colored computer. Stats won.
Anybody see a pattern here?
The only game which breaks the mold is Maru v. sOs, which, let's admit, was not good enough effort from Maru, who had the advantage though because he was in the red chair.
Conspiracy .... ? I think not. However, it does make me question some things I saw in the micro.
Some times when zerglings got past Stats' adepts when they shouldn't have been able to squeeze - once in his natural and once in a mineral block.
Some times when TY missed a tank shot that didn't fire for aeons - even though there were units in range and visible to TY.
I wonder, you know, if one computer has priority over the other in a LAN setting like that.
Just saying ...
And what about the other series that were played?
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On November 05 2018 03:55 Sakat wrote:
Talking how Serral is predictable when Maru literally proxied almost every single game he played this year until it slapped him in the face, and the ones he didn't he mostly lost anyway.
I don't know if people have bad memory or they just don't pay attention. Maru barely proxied in seasons 1 and 2, as well as all the events he did well in earlier in the year (katowice, wesg). One proxy per series at the most usually.
He only started proxying to an obnoxious degree in season 3. Which was arguably his least dominant run out of all of them.
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IDK if Serral has objectively improved during the year, but he has definitely been changing his play.
Earlier Serral was very faithful to the low-tech swarm style, focused on split attacks and 360 degree surrounds. If the game dragged out, he might have made 4-5 lurkers or BLs to break a deadlock.
But at Blizzcon, he used high-tech units in most of his games, and in high numbers. Especially the final game against Stats where he made 12 BLs seemed very unlike him. The ZvP swarm hosts also seems like something that he's recently lifted from Code S Zergs... he used not to make those at all.
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On November 05 2018 05:36 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2018 03:55 Sakat wrote:
Talking how Serral is predictable when Maru literally proxied almost every single game he played this year until it slapped him in the face, and the ones he didn't he mostly lost anyway. I don't know if people have bad memory or they just don't pay attention. Maru barely proxied in seasons 1 and 2, as well as all the events he did well in earlier in the year (katowice, wesg). One proxy per series at the most usually. He only started proxying to an obnoxious degree in season 3. Which was arguably his least dominant run out of all of them.
I wasn't really following season 1, but in S2 he did proxy a lot, although not as much as S3.
obvious hyperbole is obvious
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On November 04 2018 21:18 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2018 21:12 Zeon0 wrote:
I think its just funny, how people want to discredit Serral cause he didnt face Maru. Maru won 3 GSL without facing the arguably best player in the world and nobody was like "but he didnt face Serral". Wasn't one of these GSL at the time Maru trashed Serral 3-0 while barely beating Dark 4-3? Don't act like Serral was the best zerg in the world for the whole year, he peaked at this level only relatively recently
that was WESG...... Serral hasn't participated in any GSLs this year + Show Spoiler +please do some fuking research before saying stupid things.
Also Rogue and Dark lost 3-1 and 3-0 to Serral Respectively?
LOL Reynor, Lambo and Scarlett did better in Montreal against Serral than they did.
Also Serral hasn't lost a offline match since April 22nd, the same can't be said about Maru.
His only recent loss is against Neeb in an online tourney, and Neeb is arguably the best PvZ player out there, and the argument could be made that he held back due to having Zest and sOs in his Ro16 group.
All you Serral haters need to shut the fuk up, like right now.
God, the fuking hypocrisy is real, most of you would fuking hype up Taeja as the best player in the world in 2013 and 2014, and how many GSLs has he participated in? 0. The only thing he won was a few dreamhacks and IEM's HSC's, not really that different from what Serral has done this year, but Serral won Blizzcon and GSL vs The world.
Hell Taeja couldn't even win any WCS America's, and then he 3-0s Rain in the 2013 WCS S2 finals and you all start calling him the best vP in the world.
So according to your arguments then, I can absolutely call Serral the best player in the world now that he has won against the top koreans in GSL vs the world and Blizzcon and repeatedly won in his own region.
So don't give me this bullshit on 'you can only be the best player in the world if you participate in the GSL', IN THAT CASE TAEJA ISN'T EITHER.
But you would call Taeja the best player of all time, just because he is a korean? Let me point it out that we all know that 2013 was not Taeja's year (it was split between sOs, Dear and INnoVation) and 2014 was Zest's (and maybe Life's) year.
Serral proved himself against the best and you still find reasons to discredit his win?
Unless you admit right now that Taeja is not the best player when he played, you have no right to do that to Serral.
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On November 05 2018 06:44 Sakat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2018 05:36 Fango wrote:On November 05 2018 03:55 Sakat wrote:
Talking how Serral is predictable when Maru literally proxied almost every single game he played this year until it slapped him in the face, and the ones he didn't he mostly lost anyway. I don't know if people have bad memory or they just don't pay attention. Maru barely proxied in seasons 1 and 2, as well as all the events he did well in earlier in the year (katowice, wesg). One proxy per series at the most usually. He only started proxying to an obnoxious degree in season 3. Which was arguably his least dominant run out of all of them. I wasn't really following season 1, but in S2 he did proxy a lot, although not as much as S3. obvious hyperbole is obvious
No he didn't. He went 19-4 in maps in gsl season 2. If I remember right only two games were proxies (vs solar on acid plant, and vs zest on backwater).
You can't use the excuse of hyperbole when trying to criticise someone for doing what they didn't do.
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On November 05 2018 07:04 AzAlexZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2018 21:18 Poopi wrote:On November 04 2018 21:12 Zeon0 wrote:
I think its just funny, how people want to discredit Serral cause he didnt face Maru. Maru won 3 GSL without facing the arguably best player in the world and nobody was like "but he didnt face Serral". Wasn't one of these GSL at the time Maru trashed Serral 3-0 while barely beating Dark 4-3? Don't act like Serral was the best zerg in the world for the whole year, he peaked at this level only relatively recently that was WESG...... Serral hasn't participated in any GSLs this year + Show Spoiler +please do some fuking research before saying stupid things. Also Rogue and Dark lost 3-1 and 3-0 to Serral Respectively? LOL Reynor, Lambo and Scarlett did better in Montreal against Serral than they did. Also Serral hasn't lost a offline match since April 22nd, the same can't be said about Maru. His only recent loss is against Neeb in an online tourney, and Neeb is arguably the best PvZ player out there, and the argument could be made that he held back due to having Zest and sOs in his Ro16 group. All you Serral haters need to shut the fuk up, like right now. God, the fuking hypocrisy is real, most of you would fuking hype up Taeja as the best player in the world in 2013 and 2014, and how many GSLs has he participated in? 0. The only thing he won was a few dreamhacks and IEM's HSC's, not really that different from what Serral has done this year, but Serral won Blizzcon and GSL vs The world. Hell Taeja couldn't even win any WCS America's, and then he 3-0s Rain in the 2013 WCS S2 finals and you all start calling him the best vP in the world. So according to your arguments then, I can absolutely call Serral the best player in the world now that he has won against the top koreans in GSL vs the world and Blizzcon and repeatedly won in his own region. So don't give me this bullshit on 'you can only be the best player in the world if you participate in the GSL', IN THAT CASE TAEJA ISN'T EITHER. But you would call Taeja the best player of all time, just because he is a korean? Let me point it out that we all know that 2013 was not Taeja's year (it was split between sOs, Dear and INnoVation) and 2014 was Zest's (and maybe Life's) year. Serral proved himself against the best and you still find reasons to discredit his win? Unless you admit right now that Taeja is not the best player when he played, you have no right to do that to Serral.
Please, google "strawman falacy". You are vigorously arguing against a position that virtually nobody holds, so this little essay is sadly pointless. People who are reserved in the assessment of Serral as the best player are mostly the very same people who have been maling fun of TL Taeja bias for years.
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On November 05 2018 02:17 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:
if i was Serral i would not go to Korea and play in GSL. Its one thing being an unknown underdog who nobody cares about, but deliberately entering the room full of wounded angry players being the only one everyone wants to destroy is just nuts.
Serral did mention the Blizzcon trophy being one he still needed. Maybe he'd like to add some GSL trophies to that case.
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EPT
